David, Welcome to the Lake.

Thanks for having me back.

Hi David, welcome back to FDL Movie Night! Tonight w’re following up on our discussion of Jim Jones an the People’s temple, and presenting The People of People’s temple which was produced after the Jonestown massacre. It is a very chilling look inside the temple…more introspective because it is after the fact, while the the first doc was was more immediate and “real time.”

How did you get involved with The People of the People’s Temple? Where did the footage (home movies, say the narration) come from?

Welcome back, David.
FunnyDiva

The first Jim Jones “People’s Temple” video was more experiential, whereas “People of People’s Temple” is more investigative and analytical.

The actual Jonestown footage came from NBC because we produced the later documentary for KNBC, and we received an Emmy nomination for the show.

Mr. Gottlieb, I’m looking forward to hearing your insights. Thank you for being here.

The home footage came from a survivor named Hugh Fortsin who is also interviewed in the second video.

ahhh.. the footage is so chilling…

Can I suggest that cults involve hierarchical thinking and are not all that different from what we laughingly call society. In our society when the order comes down to suit up and head for Iraq, it’s like chug-a-luging cool aid.

I used to work at Mount Zion Hospital in SF. It is in the neighborhood where the People’s Temple was. I met many relatives of people who died in Guyana. It was an overwhelmingly sad time in San Francisco. Moscone and Milk were killed in the same year. Still hard to comprehend.

What does everybody feel about the expert interviews of the behavioral scientists?

Hugh was the man who wanted to be an episcopalin priest and then foudn the Temple? the one whose wife and child died? Why wasnt he in in Jonestomn? It seems like a few people stayed behind..

There are marked differences in the approach by Dr. Jolyon West and Philip Zimbardo, and I think both are valid.

Well, some of the ideas are alittle outdated (that it wa the disullionment of watrgate and Vietnam for instance)–and now wiht Rashneesh, Heavens Gate, Waco and other cults, we ee it’s larger societal issue

Hugh was out of Jonestown on some kind of People’s Temple business when the massacre happened.

And the idea of “well, reach out to peole and be nice” (I am simplifying a bit, whihc Zimbardo suggested seems to be a band aid…Humans like ot belong to feel a part of something bigger and to work for a greater good, cults exploit that

Some people do want a parent figure as pointed out, and a cult an provide that. What was compelling to me was how Jones changed when they moved ot Guyana, his meglomania had no focus except controlling the lives of people there

I was astonished to learn that I had met two people connected to the tragedy. A substitute teacher lost a son in Guyana, and a friend of my husband was an aide that was originally scheduled to go to Guyana with Rep. Ryan. I learned this after reading a book about Jim Jones recently since we just had an “anniversary”. our local town named a post office after Rep. Ryan this year.

I also attended school with Rep. Ryan’s daughter, Erin.

I went to Cal during the days of the Moonies and lost a cousin to them…it’s pretty scary how these folks are “just next door”.

Lisa, there was definitely that element of despair in the San Francisco Bay area. The late Jolyon West gets into the constitutional aspect–how the U.S. Constitution was never designed to protect a man like Jim Jones. There’s room for discussion here on that point. Philip Zimbardo, I think, makes the ultimate humanistic point that these people were alienated working-class people for the most part. Then Zimbardo takes a leap in saying that we could prevent future Jonestowns by engaging working-class people whenever we come across them, and treating them as human beings. Dr. West did not like that point made by Zimbardo; however, what I have found over the years is that people always remember that point that he made, about treating other people like human beings so that they don’t turn to a Jim Jones.

Recruitment can also be effective during a time of disorientation, like going to college and wondering what your purpose in life is. Rather than wrestle with the painful void, a cult comes along and fills the void.

They idea of instant friends is to some appealing, especially when combined wiht doing good and saving the world, or just a city block

Citizen David Gottlieb:

Have you given any thought to why some pseudo religious groups like Jonestown and the Dividians at Waco end up as they did and why some, like the Moonies or the Mormons, end up as states unto themselves and multi million dollar corporate players?

It would appear that the successful groups have some special dynamics with the ruling political powers…but what I’m interested in is what those dynamics are.

If you take a close watch of the documentary, you’ll learn that Jones didn’t just change when he moved to Jonestown; there were paranoia and horrible humiliations during services even when they were up in Redwood Valley.I think the point is that after people were in Jonestown, if they had any doubts at all about Jim Jones, they felt completely trapped. Like one of the survivors says, “I felt like I was up a creek without a paddle.”

The point about the constitution and religious freedom is a very valid one–there are cults today hde behind religious freedom, and as Dr West says, the Founding fathers never conceived of a Jim Jones. But deprogrammers and other fall into a dangerous area..Cult Awareness network was sued out of existenace in part by a cult whihc claimed kidnapping and mishandling. http://www.rickross is a good resource for cult warning signs, btw

Yes, they were kept under armed guard as well.

In Jonestown though, he had less focus on politics, celebrity and the outside world, got worse…and people were completely trapped. He was able to extert complete power and had no distractions…BTW, the point about breaking up the family unit is a key compnenet of cults. By breaking down the family, tearing it apart, the cult replaces the family

Let’s study the notion of political power as it relates to sustainability of a cult. The Mormons have been around for a couple of hundred years. They were hounded, brutalized, and massacred for their beliefs, which I for one find pretty nonsensical. So I guess the Mormons have only gained political power in the past 75 years or so. They were also coerced into ending their practice of polygamy. So it’s a tough question in their case. As far as Moonies go, that was a cult that started with a lot of money. But interestingly enough, you hardly hear about them anymore. Unlike Scientology, which because of their celebrity recruitment is pretty prominent in the media. I certainly hope they don’t have sustainability. They certainly have enough money.

The latter cult is losing members, and fewer people are joining–as it is a multilevel marketing plan, and very expensive to belong, they may eventually become marginalized..and also they are not big on child bearing, unlike the Mormons.

What do yu think Jim Jones was tying to accomplish in onstown, build a society? Be a king? what goals did he have?

In response to both of Lisa’s excellent comments, I would love to explore in discussion how the constitutional approach to religious freedom could somehow be reinterpreted so as to prevent crooks and murderers from taking over people’s lives. As far as breaking up the family goes, that’s an amazingly relevant point. If you were compiling dangers signs of cults, another danger sign that was implied but not absolutely stated is the practice of encapsulation: isolating the followers by guards, distance, fear, etc.

Citizen Lisa Derrick:

Phillip Zimbardo’s point about a society that treats all it’s people as valuable human beings and free CITIZENS is in perfect juxtaposition to the legal or constitutionalist idea. The law without an expansive concept or definition of citizenship can not deal with these vicious predators…indeed look at “the rule of law” and the current banking crisis, there are those like me who would say that a rigid, conservative constitutional legal system actually created the problem.

I think the goals that Jim Jones had once he established Jonestown were pretty dysfunctional and affected by methedrine, fear, and paranoia. And I think Dr. West makes an excellent point that suddenly he was responsible for everything that went on, and I don’t think he was in his right mind by that time. It became a nightmare for everybody, including Jones.

Hi David:

Would you say the Moon Temple and The Family are cults much like this one you document? Why are the ones I mention so powerful and what attracts people ~ even U.S fervent Christians to things like when Sun Moon had himself “crowned” as the Messiah? The bowing down of even PBS to the “Moony Times” when PBS includes their editorialists on discussion panels. I am just a little person, but frankly I don’t see what the deal is. The Family is downright scary and yet people like Hillary Clinton regularly attend their meetings …what is the damn attraction? The truth is when even powerful people are part of these cults, they don’t need power anymore, they’ve got it. They don’t need “inclusion” anymore or feeling like they are “doing something” for the world. They’ve already got that with adoring paparazzi, etc.
Cat In Seattle

David’s scribe here: I’m not sure I concur. It seems to me that the more liberty you have in a society, the more individual responsibility there is, which can be threatening to the kind of people who are looking to follow a parent figure and are susceptible to cults.

Citizen David Gottlieb:

As long as these groups have cash and we have the tortured and emasculated definition of citizenship that we do in this country, these groups will survive and prosper. It is only when one of these groups falls out with some part of the ruling political structure that they begin to fail…that’s why I am still interested in the history and continuing dynamic of these groups with the ruling political power.

As far as breaking up the family goes, that’s an amazingly relevant point. If you were compiling dangers signs of cults, another danger sign that was implied but not absolutely stated is the practice of encapsulation: isolating the followers by guards, distance, fear, etc.

Most (All?) Religions support this negative aspect to some degree. If you can’t convert your family, sooner or later, you will have to turn your back on them. Besides, your new (better) family is in the church (or Kingdom Hall).

While specific cults have been especially deadly, IMHO, all Religions maintain aspects of cult-like behavior.

I don’t know enough about The Family to express an opinion. But one thing I would like to focus on is the whole concept of deception. We just suffered through eight years of the most secretive, nontransparent government arguably in our history, one that was elected publicly not once but twice and took right-wing Republican, highly capitalized think tanks 20 years to organize. And the think tanks were stating their goals of retaking the government. Are we the only democratic country that functions on deception and convincing people to vote against their own interests? And are religious deception and scams an outgrowth of this mean-spirited approach?

I don’t know. It seems as if the more liberal, open branches of any religion have less need to rule by fear. What we’re talking about is really degrees of oppression within religions and/or cults.

Splinter religious groups have been around in the US especially for the past 150 years, somes survive (Mormons, Christian Scientist) others fade away–where are the followers of Baghwan now? nad there are fewer Hare Krishnas as well…

Citizen David’s Scribe:

No Brother Gottlieb, in a humanistic, constitutional system in which not only citizenship but the constitution itself is always evolving and growing, citizenship not only empowers people to challenge authoritarian power but the social support necessary to keep the weak and vulnerable from exploitation is far broader than simply the letter and the institutions of the law. We don’t have a humanistic constitutional system here…our founders set one up but religion and money killed it

How does a humanistic constitutional system separate itself from Big Brother or a benign dictatorship?

One of the people I drove to vote last year was 1 year free of a cult church. She had to leave everything behind, including her grown children, grandchildren, entire family and belongings. She had to make a run for it, with help from a wealthy woman in Tennessee. Even with help it took her two years to decide to do it. I have no idea how she kept her own spirit. None. One of the best attitudes I’ve ever seen. She has many obstacles right now, health and rebuilding a life and just keeps going. She is so glad to be out that anything is good, she says. She needs a car, and if I had the money she would have one. Help for people that do get out/escape is expensive, and they need counseling and both are not readily available to those who need it and are willing/wanting to leave.

An acquaintance/friend does such work. He has just written a book on it, called
The Heresy of Mind Control-Recognizing Con Artists in Leadership
you can download the pdf version of it from his site for free. Donate later if it helps you in some way. He is extremely intelligent and a kind Methodist man, the real kind.
http://recognizeheresy.com/default.aspx
ON the title page of the site he describes how easy it is to fall into a cult.

He and his brother, who founded and runs the center, are incredible people. So were his parents. They not only do work with former cult members, they help people with other forms of abuse also. Anything that has damaged their spirit.

I haven’t read the book yet, but am going to soon, was waiting for the book in book form, it’s just out. Don’t know what’s in it, but Stephen is very insightful, am wondering what he has to say on it. I am wanting to read it.

The relationship between Religion (Christianity) and The State has a long history. Cerca 300AD Constantine and the (early Catholic) Religious leaders struck up a deal that has lasted all these years (took some hits during the Enlightenment period), but the link between religion and government is still obviously very strong.

Religion and government (both are right wing) maintain a symbiotic relationship that seeks to dominate the populace and suck the money to the top.

We are bombarded daily with messages like this: Be happy with what (little) you have. Be grateful (to whom?) for your health and family. Work hard. Bootstraps. etc.

On the psychology of cults: one of the Jim Jones survivors said that he had a way of reaching down into an individual’s soul, figuring out what was missing, and offering it to them. I think my point is that this might be true for some newer cults–sort of a very clever but sinister premeditation, be it carrot-and-stick or whatever. In Scientology it’s more a psychology-based manipulation married to trappings of science fiction. I find Mormonism pretty amazing in the sense that it was a complete mythology made up by an L. Ron Hubbard type of person from the late 18th century, and that somehow the followers of this belief system stayed together through all the aforementioned oppression. Maybe the oppression actually improved their cohesiveness. Obviously, the Shakers died out because they refused to procreate, but I think there really has to be more specific research into why Christian Science survives, Seventh Day Adventism survives, all these homegrown American cults. It’s pretty fascinating.

I forgot to say, that was the first time she had ever voted, she’s in her 40’s. She was never allowed to vote. Was super-excited about Obama and the democrats and knew all about politics. I took her out to lunch to celebrate.

And the think tanks were stating their goals of retaking the government. Are we the only democratic country that functions on deception and convincing people to vote against their own interests? And are religious deception and scams an outgrowth of this mean-spirited approach?

Yes those are VERY good questions. So perhaps I am going to go out on a limb and answer my own questions this way: when powerful people are attracted to these cults, it might mean they think it is an avenue to attract more people? They “get” to be the father/mother figures that tell people what to do?

I am a mainline church member who has been very concerned for a long time about what you speak ~ since the 1980’s. My very church was targeted by right wing people to cause unrest within our congregation(though we did not know it or understand that at the time). It caused good marriages to dissolve, and an eventual split in the congregation because of it and was heart breaking. We were on the “wrong” side of our religion’s teachings according to more conservative churches: involved in the Sanctuary Movement, One of the founders of food banks. Peace and social justice issues, etc. We were trying to address these things with a Gandhi and MLK perspective.

I watched in horror as the mega-churches grew and touted things like “God loves the rich more than the poor” which was in direct opposition to what is scriptural, it was something very disturbing to watch.

Complicating all this and adding to our confusion as to what had happened to us, we progressives, well I can speak for me anyway but I am sure I am typical, we never wanted to impose our beliefs on anyone, just go about the work we felt was right and even if it had occurred to us what had actually happened, without direct proof, we just could not have believed other Chrsitians would come into a congregation with such purpose and with those kinds of intentions.

This is to me the most insidious part of cults. They often start with reasonable, caring well meaning people. As I look back, I shudder to think how close I came to being seduced myself …

Just some thoughts …
Cat In Seattle

religion oddly has a variet places in the brain http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03…..ef=science

we are hard wires argues julian james in the origins of Consciouness n the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (and other authors since) to find religion…
it may a survival mechanism…

Rule by fear? Waht could possibly be more frightening than the prospect of one’s soul to burn in hellfire for all eternity?

Citizen David Gottlieb:

“How does a humanistic constitutional system separate itself from Big Brother or a begnin dictatorship?”

Really,that wasn’t a serious question was it…a humanistic constitutional system with a dynamic concept of citizenship and living constitution keeps itself free by the daily application of citizenship of it’s people and the blood of it’s patriots when necessary.

What’s interesting is that a great deal of the discussion at this point is sort of blaming the Right for religious deception. What we have before us in the Jim Jones model is a cult of personality that was preaching an iteration of a left-wing agenda. I think Jones was an alienated guy who related to the plight of black people at this time. I remember him saying that if he could join the Black Panthers, he would. He talked in terms of “apostolic socialism” and promoted a belief that Jesus and his apostles were actually socialists. He was a proponent of fear against a capitalist oligarchy that was going to build concentration camps to intern more revolutionary American citizens. And so, before we blame all cult missionary religious madness on the Right Wing, we have to focus on the example before us. Was it an anomaly?

I am trying to deal with specifics and I do need some specifics back, because what I’m hearing from you are vast generalities that seem to be offering a panacea yet with no particulars or definitions. See what you can do….

Along these lines, it is often erroneously construed that Religion keeps people honest.

IOW, religion is society’s moral purveyor and moral compass. This is patently ridiculous, of course. Humans are naturally altruistic. Our survival as a species is interdependent (in our minds).

Are you saying that we’re hard-wired to possibly falling prey to an organized belief system that offers some kind of salvation or escape from the human condition, or, as thinking beings, are we hard-wired with concern and frustration about the human condition itself. Why at the moment is there an increase in people in the United States who claim NOT to believe in an organized religion but who seem to believe in an overriding existence of some supreme being or life force that could somehow help humankind?

Jim Jones had a definite Marxist slant, II think that’s one of the problems he had in his home state running a church. Had he been right wing, he would not have had the success he did in SF

Thanks Lisa, for this post !

I don’t agree that Rajneesh’s people were a cult, although there were power- hungry people in the organization. They are in fact stronger & more organized in the center, which is in India.

Similarly, The Hare Krishnas are better organized and more prosperous. Henry Ford’s grandson is an active member and they’re planning to build a temple worth $50 – $100 Million in the next few years.

I don’t subscribe to the views of these groups, but I think it is erroneous to say that, because they’re no longer selling Roses at Airports, that they’ve ceased to be effective in their pursuits.

The dynamics your describing here sound very similar to those I’ve seen and experienced in abusive families – particularly the escalation of abuse and the isolation of the victims from other social contacts and supports.

Just my random observation.

I feel, and from what I read it’ supported, that human beings are hard wired to cooperate and help on another, and that the god spots in the brain are helpers for that. However, because of personal differences soe peole get suckered and some don;t

i think you hit it closer at your comment at 44. no need to define it left or right, define it as filling a need. creating a need and filling it, too. not fulfilling, they let the people think that, they are merely filling a hole. defining what is lacking societally or spritually or emotionally to someone.articulating what they feel, and then you’re in….even happens here, or with people you ‘click’ with.human nature.then add sociopathic tendencies with an already formed belief system and you have the recipe.

seriously, read stephen’s book. he sees into people. i’ve talked for hours with him about all kinds of psychological things. kind and insightful, curious.even if i don’t agree with what i may read, i bet he backs it up.

How did the Jone’s menu package and its appeal differ from that of the Branch Davidians of Waco? Or the Nike Suicide Brigade?

AFAIK, they offered similar anti-establishment reasoning. That, of course does not discount the fact that they got most of their ideas from mainstream religions and the bible (that Sarah Palin, GWB and Obama read today).

A (former) friend of mine was involved with the Rajneeshis for quite some time, and I have to say that what I saw looked pretty cult-like to me.

treatment is similar-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W…..rce_Center

Hmm. Interesting.

I’ve never heard of the Nike Suicide Brigade. However, both David Koresh’s group and Jim Jones’s group were personality-driven cults and ultimately, though both were based in the Old and New Testaments, they differed in relation to the personalities themselves.

And so, before we blame all cult missionary religious madness on the Right Wing, we have to focus on the example before us. Was it an anomaly?

The reason I feel so …cautious and tend to blame the Right is maybe because I am a little gun-shy because of what I have seen. George Lakos (sp?) describes the punitive father figure that many Conservatives need to attract people to the Conservative Movement, and its need to have punitive and cult-like leadership. I can also see this within the movement of cults. Most progressives are not so desirous of being told what to do, I think. As they say about us, we are like “herding cats” lol!

However whether conservative or not, the things that you speak about is important because nobody should forget that plunging headlong into “group think” without asking questions, is always important to keep in mind …

Cat In Seattle

The actual name had slipped my mind: Heavens’ Gate.

Nike Suicide brigade=heavens gate

I’m not defending him or his followers … I think his view, like many Cult leaders, was over- simplistic on how to create a better society.

However, I’ve met many of his followers and overall, his org. is morally sound and open- minded.

I cannot say the same for any other spiritual/meditation- based organization.

If my memory serves me well, the head of Heavens Gate had created a personality cult with major science-fiction trappings and tragically, ending in mass suicide.

David, I haven’t read your book, did you go down to Jonestown ?

The corrupt Gov’t of Guyana was bought out and most citizens did not know the place existed, until the tragedy unfolded.

The Rajneesh cult was also a cult of personality and to a great extent its appeal was free love (sex). When they needed more power, in the area of Oregon that housed their headquarters, they went to skid rows all up and down the West Coast and recruited male transients, alcoholics, etc. It was a major disaster and in no way do I personally see anything edifying or defensible in that movement. There was nothing better in the Rajneesh group than other cults.

jones addressed social issues, branch davidians a more individual, personal relationship with god. bible truth.
davidians didn’t believe in an after-life, jones did. long list of things.
not familiar with the other one.

do you mean branch davidians? or david koresh? they are not the same thing.

here is the branch doctrine, scroll down to doctrines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian

Movie night, David shot footage of Jim Jones early on (whihc was an movie night last month)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xDecXAqcuU and now we’re on a post jonestown doc..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPbmKmZnxkU

We have about 4 mins to wrap this up..and wow, David and Scribe and Forepups, thank you all for a gREAT discusion! religion politics, cults the constitution..awesome!

Personality driven cults like Pat Robertson’s 700 club, The tearful Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker (he’s back!), Kenneth Copeland, Rick Warren’s Saddleback. When it’s not ritual-driven like Catholicism or Jehova’s Witnesses, Christianity is very often a personality game.

You won’t get the big donors if you can’t sell yourself.

Heaven’s Gate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven’s_Gate_(cult)

Thank you ALL so much! This has bene AWeSOMe!

If only there were a way we could really get a study of religion and the Constitution and cult problems into some ongoing, profound exploration and discussion. It would be great. Thank you for indulging my religious and cultic obsessions! In my personal belief system, I think that any organized religion interferes with my relationship with God.

David Gottlieb

I meant Koresh. I forgot his name.

thank you again david and scribe and pups! this was soooo much fun!

hackworth, yep, diffent thing entirely.

david gottlieb–thanks for coming, i watched your other documentary. look forward to watching this one. hope you read stephen’s book, he has worked in this field for many many years along with his brother who founded wellspring.

Thanks !

Thanks Lisa !

“I think that any organized religion interferes with my relationship with God.” – David Gottlieb

I completely agree and thank you David !

I just watched a documentary on the HEaven’s Gate people. They believed Jesus was coming back for them in a space ship and they had to be prepared spiritually before he arrived. They were celebate – some men even were voluntarily castrated – and studious and kind to one another. They looked happy from the miles of contemporary footage the documentary presented.

Marshall Applewhite was batsh*t crazy but, even so, occasionally he realized that what he believed was not going to come to pass, went to his people and said Maybe I’m wrong, you can leave if you want to. Some did but most stayed. When the families of some of the members started to organize and work get their family members back, he encouraged his foloowers to communicate with them and in some cases even go live with them for a week or two so they would lay off the group. Like other cults, Applewhite had made them cut off all contact when they joined the group.

They seemed so sincere and naive in their beliefs. They weren’t violent or angry. They just wanted to be more Jesus-like than they felt society allowed them to be, True Believers in every sense of the world

under the wellspring resource center tab at this link, you can learn more if you want. articles, many links, and they are going to be making educational videos soon, and have a survey asking what people want to know about cults in order to make the videos better.

it is a secular non-profit organization.
http://wellspringretreat.org/index.php

the founder/director is very ill, and i don’t know what is going to happen to the place, it is the only one of its kind right now. founder is stephen’s brother, who wrote the book i linked earlier. like i said earlier, they are incredible human beings.

Digg it

Not exactly sure why we shouldn’t criticize religion. Part of the problem is extending an air of believability to outright horseshit. It’s what makes any of these cults possible.

Enjoy.

I think it all depends on how a word like “religion” or “cult” is perceived. And I am convinced that not everyone shares the same perception of either.

If religion is perceived as a tool (for lack of a better term) to help men, women, and children to become productive members of a community that nurtures the self-preservation and happiness of reasonable minds, then religion is a good thing as far as reasonable minds are concerned. If, on the other hand it is perceived as a set of unreasonable demands upon men, women, and children who are naturally interested in self-preservation and happiness, then it is obviously not a good thing as far as reasonable minds are concerned.

Personally, I have always perceived religion (in particular, the religion that was practiced by the Christ and apostles of the New Testament documents as opposed to the religion that is practiced by cultural Christians and those who follow anti-New-Testament teachings and examples) in the former sense, for the most part. But unfortunately, there are many who perceive it in the latter sense. As long as there remains a difference in perceptions of things like religion, wonderful (as opposed to miserable) peace will remain in the minds of wishful thinkers and truly religious people alone.

Furthermore, I have always associated the word “cult” with the latter perception. Frankly I don’t see why there has to be so much contention over the meaning of words like “religion” and “cult”, except when we begin to respond like emotionally disturbed children everytime a person who professes to follow a religion rubs us the wrong way or commits an act that his/her religion and all reasonable minds condemn.

But, hey! What do I know?