I do not have a zed system. Just random good luck. G’morning.

This is an absolutely stunning speech. Wow. As for my congresscritter co-sponsoring? John Kline? Bwahahahahahahahahaha. I’ll ask, but I am way less than optimistic.

The truth can be extracted from all of Americas Republican traitors…at Gitmo.

i wouldn’t even joke about that. why would you?! it’s sick and totally inappropriate, in my book.

whitehouse can be amazing can’t he, this is GREAT stuff

look, while bush was still president I kept insisting the democrats had to deal with republicans in order to rebuke bush

that is still true, however now we have a much stronger hand

republicans who want the stimulous package to work but can’t say so, those who know the damage that has been done but can’t say so

we can allow them to say so by dealing, we can tell them we won’t contest their seat, we can allow them some pet projects

we MUST deal so that this is done, whitehouse speaks more then volumes, he speaks librarys when he says if we do not learn the truth the same criminals will rise again

I like this guy, now we have to get our lawmakers to deal, our hand is stronger then it was before

Much thanks for the heads-up and link on this LHP! Off to read….

I have often said of those who condoned water torture and claimed it was not;

“if we were to administer this “alternative interrogation” you insist is not torture, how long to do you think it will take for us to have to yell at the top of your lungs that it is not only torture but that you are guilty of treason, and then with that confession, do you think it should hold up in a trial of treason?”

There are many things heinous about U.S. torture. What I don’t hear much in conversation is the likelihood of payback. Seems to me Americans are in major peril. More so than ever before. I am not implying that we are better than. But BushCo upped the ante on disregard for Geneva Conventions. Big time.

The Truth Commssion I envision would look at more than just torture. For example, the Statute of Limitations on some of the illegal wiretapping stuff will run out in March.

It may be too late to prosecute, but noever too late to expose. AND–like the passage of FISA after the Church Committee found that Nixon had illegally spied on Americans, there may be some remedial legislation that could prevent found abuses, goinng forward.

I received a petition for this from Sen Leahy’s office this AM
http://ga3.org/campaign/btcpet…..7TLSagXL6E

payback is the big thing, and the thing about it, you will not know what attack is payback and what is something else

for each person tortured their brothers, parents, friends and relatives become enemies, become terrorists, you have created enemies and those enemies will devise terrorism.

Good morning Loosehead, thank you for keeping the idea going of a Truth Commission.

Well said perris.

What I don’t hear much in conversation is the likelihood of payback.

we have heard it from Riverbend, Professor Cole, and Fisk among others . . . it is to be found in the very ethos of the peoples we have harmed and it is a responsibility passed from one generation to the next until payment is extracted

…but so is the ability and willingness to forgive with only the slightest but authentic of gestures (see Rwanda)

looseheadprop - thank you for this – he doesn’t miss ANYTHING in only 8 minutes of a speech.

I’m a funny person..too bad only I know it.

Then call your congresscritter and tell him or her to co-sponsor this bill.

I’m proud to say Sheldon Whitehouse IS my senator. But I’ll get on the others.

It is also a question of what it has done to us as citizens of the US. We collectively have been dishonored by these policies.

republicans who want the stimulous package to work but can’t say so

Are there any? Seems like they have all sold their souls to Limbaugh.

I probably won’t have a lot of luck getting McConnel to co-sponsor, or Bunning to be in a cognitive state. ;)

I think the world of Leahy and Whitehouse is very smart, but for reasons that create way too long of a post, I think the Commissions won’t work.

Just to touch on one reason (which actually subsumes and spins off many other reasons) we are not talking about things that are just US crimes where only the US has skin in the game.

*Because of that, there are going to be all kinds of Executive privilege issues, which Obama has already shown he will be exercising in a manner so as to cover up not only Executive branch crime but also foreign government complicity and this is going to be an issue far beyond jus the Exec branch actors

*Cases are already pending against, or have been referred for investigation of, members of the US intelligence community (and an AF Col IIRC) in other countries and even “immunized” revelations here will not be entitled to foreign immunity if entered into those proceedings – so we really will be sending out invitations for foreign prosecutions and that is going to cause a string of issues

*There is torture – just flat out, that’s the case. There have been killings, there have been torture sessions targeted to provide information to start wars that would kill and maim American soldiers – there has been anal rape, child abuse – the list goes on and on. No one with real knowledge can be counted on to be truthful, esp with the uncertainties of immunities and domestic prosecutions and international prosecutions – - – and civil recourse by victims, which is something Congress cannot immunize against IMO.

*Torturers are still a part of the intelligence community and will continue to be so during the investigations – when one CIA operative was tied to both leaving el-Masri disappeared into black site torture long after they knew they had the “wrong” el-Masri, and also to taking trips to view violent interrogations for the entertainment factor (for which she was *reprimanded* according to Jane Mayer) – the response was to take her and give her a covert assignment to hide her away from investigations and discussions pdq. How do you keep intel missions going when they are being used as a dumping ground for torturers that are being hidden – how do you get to the truth in a commission setting when it involve revealing names and faces that the Exec and intel communities have deliberately interwoven with highly sensitive and classified missions with international aspects? All of these are issues in a trial as well, but there are more avenues for protecions of information due to limitations on disseminations there.

*Internationally, we will have been deemed to have CHOSEN to not prosecute torture. Whether that will or will not be the de facto case if there is a commission(I kind of think it will, despite what Leahy is leaving open) it is how it will be deemed. That an entity like the US, which is not a failed state, abandons legal recourse for political commissions is going to either make it harder for other nations to justify not pursuing legal recourse on their own, or, more sadly, provide an international justificaiton for not pursuing Executive branch crime and criminals in other venues.

*Knowing that government torture is not being pursued legally could, and definitely should, cause other countries to refuse to extradite and cooperate with the US on a multitude of other matters. Canada just might have to revisit that diplomatic determination that the US was a state sponsor of torture that got squashed during the Bush years. If all you do is pontificate and you never punish, then other countries have to be wary.

*Whatever the pie in the sky about non-politicization, that is an impossiblity. So the reality, in this already very dangerous world where a lot of people hate and distrust the US anyway, is going to be that a host of Republicans, and some blue dogs, will be taking to the airwaves over and over, spouting justificiations that will enrage people against us overseas, and also engaging in diatribes involving those who do testify truthfully that will make the whistleblowers targets for every Ann Coulter/Rush Limbaugh listener around. The guy who went into the church and killed the attendees bc talk radio had him so angry at “liberals” may end up paling in comparison to what will be stirred up as the right jousts to retain political capital.

etc.

Whitehouse will go down in history as a hero. This is a fantastic speech.

Okay, LHP, I’ll call Darrell Issa…(did you see Tweets knock him down?)

Oh, lordy, I hope you’re right, LHP. But the wheels grind excruciatingly slowly. I do get that rule of law precludes prairie justice, but patience is not a national virtue. Which is what the perps count on, I guess. People get bored and move on. Totally sucks, but there you have it. Well, some people . . . *g*

Remember when we were told it was only frat boy hazing, and inmates feasted on lemon chicken? Good times, good times.

Please DIGG.

Well then give Shedon some positive feedback and while your at it, let him know that FDL has his back

I haven’t liked the downsides of the ”Truth Commission” idea, especially coming from people who write ”sternly worded letters” and just issue new subpeonas to be ignored when the previuos ones were ignored.

I’ll take it though. Any forward movement is good. It will have unintended consequences. All of this has unintended consequences.

There was no blogosphere (and certainly not on tv) when the 9/11 Commission was committed. And there’s all kinds of material that has been collected and put into the public domain in the last 8 years, unlike the dynamics of the 9/11 blind eyes.

Mary said yesterday ”lo the Angel of GitMo came down” and escorted Holder around and ”all was good.” It’s going to take Obama a while to get a handle on this. And it’s Congress’ job to look at the past, not Obama’s. He’s issued orders and they are being ignored: I don’t think Obama will ignore that.

But in terms of choosing what to work on today ~ the economy and the budget just won’t wait. And opening this up today could derail what his high numbers are allowing him to put into place. He’s barely got all that rolling and now he’s dealing with Iraq ~ to start the pullout: that’s another thing that just won’t wait.

I had a feeling that he’s been telling the Pentagon what he wants and it’s a test for them. Still he should have asked them to mark up a copy of the Geneva Conventions for him and said ”show me your work.”

Day 38. Day freakin’ 38.

Go Whitehouse!

You’re right — he knows, and he is horrified. (IMHO)

Any way to move an additional DIGG button somewhere close to the “leave your response” box? I’m guessing it might increase DIGGS.

and we’re still waiting for Bugman Delay’s day in court. Exceeding slow indeed.

Yes I did see Tweety give ole’ Darrel a schoolin’

Sheldon Whitehouse is brilliant and serious. But I remain cynical about this. I think too many of them will be implicated and complicit in any honest assessment. Their future for reelection is at stake and that always takes prescident over truth and honesty. The truth commission will happen but it will so watered down that it won’t mean much.

I ernestly wait to be proven wrong.

Is Rummy still waiting for a bus somewhere? Maybe we can offer him a ride…somewhere. ;)

Congress should send an observer staff member to Gitmo to live among the prisoners until it is closed.

Mary, I luv ya honey, but if I took you well founded points to heart, we would end up doing? nothing.

I’m a get the door open a crack so I can force me way in kinda thinker.

I need the door to be unlocked and cracked open, or I don’t have a chance of getting in.

LHP for Chairman of the commission!!!!

Thanks for this post LHP. I read earlier it was a must see.

Probably the most powerful speech I have heard in a long time.

I wish I knew who he was looking at one one point in the speech. I have to go back and check the time to note it. The look on his face was absolutely chilling. He looked as though he made eye contact with someone in the room and was silently stating, “How dare you! How could you to our democracy? You are an infuriating shame to all!”

well, “sold their souls” is accurate however they would gladly sell blimpough out if they knew they’d get elected without the republican party and their drug addicted impotent lardo

it amazes me they bow at the feet to such a putz

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the degree to which we can be expect to be successful in recovering from the sorry economic mess we find ourselves in, is directly proportional to the degree to which we are willing to face the truth as to the nature of BushCo’s depravity.

The amount of obfiscation we tolerate coming from those who wish to ” … put all this behind us …” will impact directly the depth and severity of the economic pain we will have to endure before once again enjoying the blessings we have come to expect are the fruits of our democracy.

I am not saying we can in any way avoid the reality of our present condition, or the price to be paid for our mistakes, but that to the extent we try to avoid that price we will forestall healing and the return to prosperity we all hope for.

I don’t know how I know this, but I feel it in my bones.

Just spoke to staff in Whitehouse’s D.C. office, so it’s possible to snag a human being there:

Whitehouse’s Washington Office:
Hart Senate Office Building
Room 502
Washington, D.C. 20510
202-224-2921 phone
202-228-6362 fax

Whitehouse’s Providence Office:
170 Westminster Street
Suite 1100
Providence, RI 02903
401-453-5294 phone
401-453-5085 fax

email form

linkerage please

I think that is HIGHLY unlikely, but I would certainly take that gig if offered. WHich it won’t be

do they know you to offer it?

if so I will lobby your position, however I will rue the day you tell us you have too much on your plate to post

Just a thought – but can he be cloned? He’s a treasure . . .

Barbara took care of it at 38

yup, spotted it after I posted, calling now

What is the name of the bill? Do we know of any cosponsors? Am I missing a link in the post? I have my critter’s phone number in hand, do I just tell him to support Sheldon Whitehouse’s Truth Commision? I always feel like I don’t do well on these calls, I want to be well armed!

Watt4Bob @ 37: That’s what I have been feeling too and I was trying to figure out how to put it into words ~ you have done so brilliantly.

There’s nothing that can happen (including on Wall Street) out of this that I won’t see as a price for letting this happen. And I know whose fault it is. I know. We cannot allow these sick ideas (in all arenas) to dominate the country. We are circling the drain if we do. We have to unwind this.

Thanks for this, Prof ‘prop.

Here’s a problem:

The G.W. Bush administration was part of a continuum.

You start investigating it, and you see that A is connected to B is connected to C is connected….

And pretty soon, you’ve worked your way back through past administrations, all the way back to 11/22/63, and maybe even further back.

I’m ALL FOR IT.

I would add to your rebuttal, Perris, that if waterboarding is not torture, then why did we execute opposing soldiers that did it to us?

For those who don’t think a Commission is enough..
*********
” We urge Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a non-partisan independent Special Counsel to immediately commence a prosecutorial investigation into the most serious alleged crimes of former President George W. Bush, former Vice President Richard B. Cheney, the attorneys formerly employed by the Department of Justice whose memos sought to justify torture, and other former top officials of the Bush Administration.

Our laws, and treaties that under Article VI of our Constitution are the supreme law of the land, require the prosecution of crimes that strong evidence suggests these individuals have committed. Both the former president and the former vice president have confessed to authorizing a torture procedure that is illegal under our law and treaty obligations. The former president has confessed to violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

We see no need for these prosecutions to be extraordinarily lengthy or costly, and no need to wait for the recommendations of a panel or “truth” commission when substantial evidence of the crimes is already in the public domain. We believe the most effective investigation can be conducted by a prosecutor, and we believe such an investigation should begin immediately. “

Drafted by The Robert Jackson Steering Committee
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/robertjackson

Do “they” know me? Whitehouse does, I covered (in person) a wonderful speech he gave about investigating the politicalization of DOJ. I wanted a copy of the speech and so had to “out” myslf to him.

I rarely do that. Only told one friend, and PatFitz figured it out by himslef before I got up the nerve to tell him. Most of my family and friends don’t know who LHP is.

Make me feel kinda like batman when I hear someone I know talk about LHP or quotes me to myself without knowing I’m me.

So basically it’s the FDL crew who know me. Both me’s. Gah! that sounded really schizo

heroes rise.

From the email from Leahy, I don’t think there is a bill yet, just a proposal

Which is part of the reason I’m jumping on this now–when they get around to drafting a bill, I want ot make sure that there aren’t any blanket immunity type provisions and that there is authority to refer for proscution–or better yet, requirement to refer for prosecution

It’s at 7:40-41

H says, “This is no small thing and it is not easy…” As he begins the statement, he turns his head to the right for a moment and he his broiling in that second. I wish I knew who he made brief eye contact with.

Ahhh, Senator Leahy’s Bill!!! That’s what I get for commenting before I finished the video.

The punchline is I already had loaded up foothillsmike’s link to the Senator’s petition.

What else would you expect from sm’gumby.

I don’t think a commission is “enough” either. I thik it is one tool in what I hope will become a well stocked toolbox for fixing the leagl and moral and ethical mess that our country ahs become under GWB.

Thisnk of it as extreme home makeover–constitutional edition!

one of the problems with debating the practice is the very benign word;

“water boarding”

doesn’t sound so bad, I prefer;

“pouring water down your throat till you convulse in the throws of death, vomiting bile, being revived from death to be brought to death yet again”

a bit more accurate my term for the practice

Now you have me curious as well.

Next person to call Whitehouses office, please ask them

33 – why nothing???

I have tremendous respect for Whitehouse and Leahy and Feingold and if they think they can pulli it off, more power to them, of course I’ll support them. But I don’t see any focus on the kinds of things that I raised and I don’t think “clap harder” makes them go away.

If you want to tackle a tough problem, you have to roll your sleeves up and dig into the entrails of the problems. Will Congressional immunity cause someone facing charges in another country or who is susceptible to civil actions to testify truthfully in an open, commission setting? And if not, if you are going to have behind closed doors efforts (not quite the sunlight that Whitehouse seems to be steering towards) then why not with a special proscutor who can also make classified reports to Congress that can be cleared for release in a non-classified manner?

And foreign countries won’t grind to a halt while we have our commission, and there are already charges in everywhere. Foreign VICTIMS are going to be virually unavailable to testify – is Binyam Mohamed going to hug an FBI agent and board a plane with them? What about the Aafia Siddiqui case and al-Marri and the GITMO cases that are somehow supposed to be ongoing during this commission and Padilla’s appeals and civil suits? Does anyone give KSM immunity to testify before the commission? And if the truth is going to be pieced together solely from the statements of the torture enablers and their colleagues, without victims being involved, then just how truthful is that?

I’ll vibe for Whitehouse, but I won’t pretend that they are covering all the bases when I don’t believe it and I won’t pretend that it is a matter of doing a commission or nothing.

The truth is, criminal investigations and prosecutions are going to take place – they are, right this minute, taking place. We have to lead, follow or get out of the way IMO, but that doesn’t mean I won’t offer up support to Leahy and Whitehouse. My support is going to be laced with “but what about this” though, until I can see something that shows they have realistically factored those issues into the equation. I haven’t seen that yet, but here’s hoping.

But I don’t buy a poster with “Hope” on it as a solution.
Never did, *hope* I never do. *g*

PatFitz figured it out by himslef

I’ve certainly thought highly of the fitz’s instincts but that is a bit supernatural me thinks

wow perris.

Your term is worth EVERY additional syllabl. What it lacks in brevity, it make ups for in accuracy and eleoquence

He does it again at 8:24 when he say in regards to Leahy, “I stand with him.”

And again at the end, when he closes with his thanks and yields the floor.

Do we know who was sitting in that direction?

Make me feel kinda like batman when I hear someone I know talk about LHP or quotes me to myself without knowing I’m me.

How funny!!

I do think it was a wonderful speech – isn’t it next Weds that they are going to have a hearing?

I’ll send out positive thoughts and vibes and prayers.

I listened to the speech last night. I noticed that there was not one word in the speech about holding anyone accountable for their actions, and not one word about prosecuting law-breakers.

Whitehouse expressed concern to prevent such abuses from happening again in the future. How can that happen unless there are prosecutions?

It is true that Whitehouse did not propose amnesty in exchange for testimony, so on this essential point he is ambiguous. You wrote:

…as long as there is NO BLANKET AMNESTY for people who testify before the commission. As long as the commission has the authority–or better yet is required to–refer viable criminal cases for prosecution, I think the truth commission idea could work.

I agree, but Whitehouse was silent on these essential points. I hesitate to clamor for my congress critters to support his proposal unless it is clear that “the commission has the authority–or better yet is required to–refer viable criminal cases for prosecution.”

Bob in HI

Definitely..article from Dec.2007.
*******
” Former military dictator Jorge Rafael Videla and 16 other military leaders in Argentina will be prosecuted on charges of conspiring to kidnap and kill political activists in a scheme known as Plan Condor, developed by Henry Kissinger and George Bush Sr., head of the CIA at the time. Dictators in Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina killed opponents in the 1970s and 80s under the plan, also known as Operation Condor. “

http://upsidedownworld.org/mai…..iew/1042/1

From Feb. 24/09.
**********
” U.S. Representatives Raúl Grijalva (D-AZ) and Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) are circulating a “Dear Colleague” letter to encourage other Representatives to sign on to a letter to President Barack Obama calling for the U.S. government to remain neutral in El Salvador’s March 15 presidential race, respect the election results, and work toward a positive relationship with whichever party is elected. With less than a month remaining before election day, this urgent letter is now open for all Members of Congress to sign. “

http://upsidedownworld.org/mai…..w/1734/68/

They have to ask fellow Congress members to not manipulate the elections because..
*********
” Public statements made by high level U.S. officials in the weeks leading up to El Salvador ’s last presidential election, in 2004, threatened Salvadoran voters into re-electing the right wing ARENA party. Undersecretary of State Roger Noriega traveled to El Salvador a month before the election to publicly endorse ARENA candidate Antonio Saca and warn that relations with the U.S. would deteriorate if the opposition FMLN party were elected. The week before the election, Congressman Tom Tancredo (R-CO) threatened that the U.S. would stop the flow of remittances sent home by Salvadorans living in the U.S. in the case of an FMLN victory. “

Either is better than neither.

Agreed. Listening to Sen. Whitehouse is absolutely chilling. There’s awful knowledge out there in a few places. We need to support Senators Leahy, Whitehouse, and others who sign on with them. If we don’t face this now, we can never move beyond it.

I have been stunned over the past eight years, trying to absorb the knowledge that our country’s institutional memory could be quite so short that we would have allowed some in our government to plunge into an abyss of such heinous activity against others yet again – so soon after the horrors of Vietnam, so soon after the Nixon/Kissinger and Bush 41 Iran/Contra excesses, now Bush 43/Cheney.

It is clear that we simply cannot turn away as if BushCheneyInc. never altered our country’s course to suit their personal whims. We cannot move on as if there were no consequences or responsibility shared by those who enabled these miscreants to run amok.

We must face what others have done in our name, or we cannot ever hold our heads up with pride again. We need to face the truth of the Bush/Cheney administration, and support those who would work for change to correct weaknesses in our governance that so far have allowed such people free rein to promote violence and greed with no personal repercussions.

If we fail to act, such people will hold sway again and again, and our once proud and compassionate country will lose its future as its once proud heritage grows dim. That is unthinkable. It must stop.

have tremendous respect for Whitehouse and Leahy and Feingold and if they think they can pulli it off, more power to them, of course I’ll support them. But I don’t see any focus on the kinds of things that I raised and I don’t think “clap harder” makes them go away.

If you want to tackle a tough problem, you have to roll your sleeves up and dig into the entrails of the problems. Will Congressional immunity cause someone facing charges in another country or who is susceptible to civil actions to testify truthfully in an open, commission setting? And if not, if you are going to have behind closed doors efforts (not quite the sunlight that Whitehouse seems to be steering towards) then why not with a special proscutor who can also make classified reports to Congress that can be cleared for release in a non-classified manner?

Right now, I see zero evidence that Holder is planning to do ANYTHING about it. Public exposure of the facts plus a referral for prosecution will make it much harder for him to sit on his hands.

And foreign countries won’t grind to a halt while we have our commission, and there are already charges in everywhere. Foreign VICTIMS are going to be virually unavailable to testify – is Binyam Mohamed going to hug an FBI agent and board a plane with them? What about the Aafia Siddiqui case and al-Marri and the GITMO cases that are somehow supposed to be ongoing during this commission and Padilla’s appeals and civil suits? Does anyone give KSM immunity to testify before the commission? And if the truth is going to be pieced together solely from the statements of the torture enablers and their colleagues, without victims being involved, then just how truthful is that?

Foreign countries won’t have access to a lot of the evidence they need. So regardless of the outcome, verdicts may not be universally percieved as legitiamte. And unless those countries gat their ahnds onthe convict, there is no way to enforce their verdicts

I’ll vibe for Whitehouse, but I won’t pretend that they are covering all the bases when I don’t believe it and I won’t pretend that it is a matter of doing a commission or nothing.

I don’t pretend that Leahy’s proposal covers allthe bases either. I think it is a way to get the crack in the door.

The truth is, criminal investigations and prosecutions are going to take place – they are, right this minute, taking place. We have to lead, follow or get out of the way IMO, but that doesn’t mean I won’t offer up support to Leahy and Whitehouse. My support is going to be laced with “but what about this” though, until I can see something that shows they have realistically factored those issues into the equation. I haven’t seen that yet, but here’s hoping.

That’s the kind of support I ma giving as well

context, child.

I said something in a comment once that he recognized. There was nothing supernatural about it. The guy’s known me for 20 years, and there aren’t all that many ex- federal proscutor female rugby palyers around, so his suspect pool was pretty narrow

LHP, can/will you update the post to include the URL to Leahy’s petition:

http://www.bushtruthcommission.com/

” Plans to establish the commission still remain in their infancy, as senators and staff look at previous panels, such as the 9-11 Commission, and investigations following Watergate. Whitehouse, a former U.S. attorney, noted that a torture commission might need the power to immunize witnesses on a case-by-case basis. The prospect of future prosecutions, he said, are beside the point. Most important was putting a spotlight on abuses committed by the Bush administration. “

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/40233

I’ve certainly thought highly of the fitz’s instincts but that is a bit supernatural me thinks

The information provided seems to imply or should I say, can we safely infer that Pat Fitz reads here often in order for him to be able to put two and two together and come up with four?

“The damage below the waterline of Democracy.”

This is an interesting analogy…the iceberg analogy…

Could have also been a reference to IT related concerns in terms of wrong doings. And there are so many…

Bob, unless there is a groundswell of public support for the commssion idea–it ain’t gonna happen. First we get the idea going then we work out hte details

Plaese all of you feel free to offer conditional support–conditioned on no blanket amnesty (which was an aoriginal feature of the Leahy proposal which he has since abandoened–r said he did) and conditioned on prosecutions wehere there are viable cases.

I do that in my emails to Leahy

isn’t it next Weds that they are going to have a hearing?

yes. wednesday at 10 am. (scroll down for my schedule).

So updated

I’m am not opposed to immunization on a case by case basis.

He figured it out back in the days when FDL was Libby central. When we used to endlessly parse every filing looking fo rclues and Marcy was measuring the number of type characters in a given redaction.

His whole office was reading us daily back then. I think it was fun for them to see how much we could figure out.

Great speech. But I’m still trying to make good use of the cynicism I learned in the past 8 years. Isn’t that the same Whitehouse who made great speeches against telecom immunity right before he voted for it?

There is a lot of stuff in that speech that you could parse. I think there is a lot of subtext and messages for indiviuals and groups beyond the plain meaning of the words.

I think there is a TON of manuevering over cover up vs exposeure

Marcy’s next post being an example

Thanks. (And, since => sign)

heh heh. You DO know you are cherished around this place, don’t you?

((((((LHP))))))

Here’s the transcript of the speech.

LHP, Thank you for this post. This is really helpful, exactly how best to go after these crimes is not so clear, and you are doing a great job in helping us understand the possibilities.

Whitehouse’s speech was fantastic. My intuition is that this stuff will all come out, but we should keep pushing to make sure. Horrible for the US, but let the truth be know. He may be a real hero before this is over.

i don’t remember whitehouse speaking out against telco immunity, but he did vote for it every chance he had (including in committee).

p.s. did you see the dilbert cartoon on the bailout hearings? (if not, click on my name, i think you will like it).

Great speech. But I’m still trying to make good use of the cynicism I learned in the past 8 years. Isn’t that the same Whitehouse who made great speeches against telecom immunity right before he voted for it?

Unfortunately, that was among my first thoughts, too. Talk is cheap; much cheaper than actually standing up for civil rights via a principled vote in Congress. When you stand with the offenders instead of standing up to them, that’s hypocrisy, and that’s wrong, as David Shuster says.

” Last week I expressed my concerns in a letter addressed to Mr. Leahy, who happens to be my Senator. I received a letter back from him today, which was equally disappointing. In the letter he reiterated that the truth commission would not involve prosecutions:“We need to get to the bottom of what happened so we can make sure it never happens again … People would be invited to come forward and share their knowledge and experiences, not for purposes of constructing criminal indictments, but to assemble the facts …”

Senator Leahy, with all due respect, assembling the facts is one step in making sure it never happens again. But if you stop there and let people go, it does not accomplish your stated goal of making sure it never happens again. In fact it invites future transgressions. If your truth commission takes place and similar acts are committed in the future, I would hold you partially responsible – personally.

Prosecution is not about vindictiveness or revenge. It’s about the law and upholding the Constitution.

Senator Leahy, there is no logic in your arguments. As a former prosecutor, you know that the only way to send a message to other criminals is to prosecute those you catch. And even if the prosecutions fail, all the same facts will come out in the trial, that would otherwise come out in your truth commission. As constitutional law expert John Turley has stated, we don’t need a truth commission, we need a grand jury.

Immunity has its place. A skillful prosecutor can use his or her discretion to selectively offer immunity to those who hold valuable information but were subordinate in high crimes. “

http://solarbus.org/blog/

Yep.

But it is clear, he is disgusted and mad beyond his words.

It is going to nag at me who was sitting before him to the right. Wish I could find a photo…

more on whitehouse and telco immunity here.

I’m pretty sure WH spoke out against telecom immunity because I recall that he was among those who we thought would vote against it and we were disappointed when he didn’t. But I don’t keep track of those things, so no links, and my memory could certainly be faulty.

Didn’t see the Dilbert cartoon, and clicking on your name yields page not found.

Salting this Commission with a gaggle of Gorelicks, a flock of Feinsteins, or a bipartisan bed of Repulican clams would be as productive as seating Gerald Ford on the Warren Commission. They would keep it “safe” for Beltway Villagers, meaning taxpayer citizens would learn nothing. They would certainly make sure that the GOP was not surprised by the Commission’s direction or findings before they were made final.

Ms. Gorelick, for example, but by extension her circumstance applies to many, may have once been a Democrat. Now, she’s just a Village Lobbyist.

Instead, staff it with other types. Former prosecutors in the mold of Patrick Fitzgerald, former agency heads or CongressCritters not dependent on Wingnut welfare or its moribund Democratic equivalent to make a living.

How about adding a few people drawn from international groups, such as those with prior experience in monitoring elections or the spread of nuclear weapons, from Amnesty International or Doctors Without Borders. Their specialties would be useful, as would their experience managing political interference and bureaucratic infighting. Equally useful would e their coming from outside. Having no “skin in the game”, they might find the truth less frightening.

I hope he follows thru. But I prefer to withhold judgement until I see some performance. No brownie points for showing up.

well, i don’t know about the link. strange, it works for me…. would you give this one a try for me?

http://www.netrootsmass.net/ca…..-hearings/

re whitehouse, my memory could be wrong also… but i have a bunch of his statements ripped (i think he gives a good speech *g*) so i’ll look around.

That link worked on second try. Think my computer had a problem with the server. Great cartoon!

WH is a side issue. There will be plenty of time in the months ahead for us to know whether he’s serious.

Here’s part of my point: We already know of some of the wrongdoing and some crimes. We already know, for instance, that our past President consistently saw himself as the head of the Country. We know that he usurped power that would put him in a position higher than that of the Congress and higher than the Courts, including the Supreme Court. We know that he didn’t much veto until Dems became the majority, and even then, he handled most everything with signing statements. This is just one example. The others are just too numerous to mention. This is called Abuse of Power. We know this. But without labeling it so and making it a high crime or misdemeanor punishable by something, knowing goes nowhere? What good is done by just the knowledge alone?

thanks for checking, i was thinking maybe there was something wrong on my end. thought you would like that cartoon.

good call re whitehouse.

Of course we know all that and more. (This business of innocent until proven guilty applies only to the legal system, not to us.) Naming it and not prosecuting is a travesty for all sorts of reasons. For example, it carves in stone (well, paper and electrons anyhow) that the U.S. is NOT a nation of laws; it tells (again) all future prez that they can get away with anything, inviting even worse behavior. Those are just the first two that come to mind, but there are plenty of other awful consequences.

Well I talked to Congressman Baird’s office, the always pleasant woman on the phone promised to pass my feelings on to him.

Wish I felt it had more of an impact.

You’re right on both counts Art;

It is a problem, but we have to face it, and many more people are also “for it”.

The pain has not gone away by ignoring the problem, it’s only gotten worse and so has made us all much more likely to take our medicine, and endure the treatment.

Did I mention I love me some Whitehouse!

Great post. Sorry I missed the thread.

klynn, if you ever find out who Whitehouse was looking at, I would love to know. I just watched the video and noticed exactly the same thing, so popped here to check the thread to see if anyone else mentioned it. I would bet a vast sum that whoever was sitting there approved something awful and Whitehouse knows about it. I agree with JimWhite, there was real passion in that speech that I suspect was motivated by some horrific evidence.

Thank you for this diary, looseheadprop. I followed the link at Jim White’s diary on Sen. Whitehouse, signed up for his e-mail letters, and sent him an-email (on his website) letter of appreciation.

I live in the Midwest and all 3 of my cogresscritters are shameful and would likely be candidates for prosecution as co-conspirators in the Bush/Cheney crimes.

Question: Can our country have legal standing as the injured party in a legal suit brought by citizens on said country’s behalf? IANAL. That question was prompted by a diary at Oxdown, ‘Let’s Sue The Government…’

OK– I can agree with that: Conditional support for Leahey-Whitehouse proposal. Thanks!

Bob in HI

Thanks!

Bob

Yep, my first time through, the glances sent a chill down my spin and I said out loud, “Wohw–oh….what was that about?” I was jolted by the moment each time he glanced.

I was thrown by my own in-the-moment response, quite honestly.

If you return, C-Span 2 looks set to play rerun of the speech in less than 20 minutes.

I have it on a larger screen, in case that lets me see more of whomever else is on the floor. Dorgan is talking now. McCain gave a mumble much earlier. Hard to tell if anyone else other than staff is present.

p.s., Whitehouse’s aide, sitting to his left side, either was having contact lens trouble, or was tearing up, during Sen. W.’s stunning speech, I think.

Adie — I don’t know about klynn, but I’ve been peaking back here as frequently as I can (which isn’t much today I’m afraid). Please do add another comment if you get a glimpse of who might be sitting there… Thanks!

Uh, that would be peeking ; )

so far all i think i’ve spotted is the aide who was sitting on his left.

but, not surprisingly, my timing is off/ not started yet.

heard a momentary peep from mikes (phooey – prefer the Brandenberg concertoes they’re playing, heh. mostly a lotta nothing, except entreaties of me to our kitty not to traipse back & forth over keyboard…. dang

Can we PLEASE see this guy on the talk shows? Obama can’t do all the heavy lifting by himself. I’d also like to see a bunch more of Russ Feingold..

Thanks for the update Adie — I appreciate it!

Call me an utter failure, except that I learned a lil’ more about how things work….

1st, The time I managed to access a replay of Senate bidness occurred AFTER Whitehouse’s wonderful speech. Between the weird clock-tracking of “original” vs “replay” & ET vs PT, I must have missed something.

I’m filled to the brim with senatorial spin, tho: can quote Lisa Murky – drilldrilldrill- since only a few musk oxen & polar bears can stand the place in the winter, & only visit just a short spell; those boids & other migrating targets only need to tip-toe thru, and they’ll never feel a thing, HONEST!

& lil’ Jeffy Sessions – if they look funny, arrest ‘em and send ‘em, um, back…. somewhur-else. (lawsy, the boy needs a hat, with a twirly on top, assuming those were his ears)

Reid sneaked into amidst Sen. Ted Kaufman’s (D-Del) noble plea for promoting our own education of engineers & other smart people instead of exporting same to Wall Street.

Interesting little wrinkle: Reid made it very clear to clerk that his interruption, as well as the little item of legislation he slipped in sideways thereabouts, were not to be put in the record. Huh!

Repubbles: be. very. afraid. heh heh.

Kauf. interrupted hisownself later to add a whole bunch more legislation for consideration, and promised no votes until Tues.

The End. Adios!

(whoosh. i admire wizards like Jane, Christy, EW, Selise, and all youse guys who know whut yer doin’)

p.s., I STILL don’t know what happened to Whitehouse’s speech. I watched the WHOLE replay! Go figure.

Whitehouse MUST be somewhere on YouTube. I hope.

The first time I read or heard the description of water boarding (something like ‘pouring water on a cloth covering a person’s mouth to make them instinctively gag and think they are drowning’) I could not figure it out. I pictured something from my childhood: rainwater rolling down the roof of a pitched tent while I lay inside. It never made me gag. I remember it was quite relaxing.

The use of your definition of waterboarding from the beginning would have gotten the point across immediately.

Check Whitehouse’s own website. Also, the transcript has been posted somewhere. I found the link right here at the Lake.

Bob in HI

Thanks much. What I’d been searching for was a wider camera angle from the Senate speech, because a number of us here noticed he was pointedly glaring off to his right side various times during his speech. The YouTube coverage does not show anyone but him and the aide to his left.

Oh well. Marvelous speech. Important topic.