Ezra Klein is stating that universality will be a goal of Obama’s healthcare plan. At $634 billion, over 10 years (that’s $63.4 billion a year) it’s hard to see how Congress is going to turn Obama’s plan into real universal healthcare because that simply isn’t enough money. One hint is in the use of the phrase "individual mandates", which means that, similar to car insurance, you will be required to buy insurance.
The majority of the known details of the plan are what might be best characterized as Medicare cost savings, as Stirling Newberry pointed out last night. Costs are contained by forcing competitive bidding in regions and using the average, by paying hospitals who readmit patients too often less than hospitals who fix the problem the first time, by simple reductions in payments, and so on. Since private insurers charge more for Medicare services, in general, than the normal Medicare costs, they are also going to be forced into line with more general costs. All of this is good and smart: there’s no reason to pay private insurers a premium to do the same thing that the public system can do for less.
However, as Newberry points out, what this means is less money for insurers. They have two options, they can eat the reductions and be less profitable, or they can increase prices on their non-Medicare clients. I’m sure we can all guess what they’d prefer to do.
Which brings us back to individual mandates. I generally don’t like individual mandates. It’s not that they can’t be done well, various European countries have individual mandates, and they work fine, but that’s because they place very strict cost controls on insurers for ALL patients. Exactly what must be covered by the basic plan and what the rate of profit is on the basic plan is strictly regulated. Patients must be accepted even if they have pre-existing conditions and they can’t be charged more.
If a government doesn’t do this, two things can happen:
1) If the government has its own healthcare plan open to everyone (remember, everyone can’t enroll in Medicare or Medicaid) then the most expensive patients will wind up on the government’s dime. Private insurers will cherry pick the healthy people, then when they get sick do their best to dump them onto the public plan. Costs will soar, the government will get soaked and you won’t get the savings one should get from true universal health care (which are about 1/3 of current US costs.)
2) If the government doesn’t have its own healthcare plan open to everyone, the insurers will simply soak everyone who can’t be on the Medicare and Medicaid. So the government may pay less for healthcare, but all it’s really doing is moving costs around—from poor people and old people and on to everyone else.
In other words, for Obama’s plan to work it must have individual mandates and a public insurance option open to everyone and insurance companies must be forced to compete on even ground with the public plan – same cost schedule and the same underwriting (basically none).
Likewise individual mandates that don’t have high enough subsidies leave large numbers of people uninsured anyway because they can’t afford the insurance. If it’s a choice of eating, paying rent or paying for insurance, people will take their chances on getting sick or live with their existing health care problems. This is what has happened in Massachusetts, which has a supposedly universal system which actually isn’t, because subsidies aren’t sufficient.
The best way to do subsidies is simply to figure out the cost of a basic plan and just give everyone below the minimum income (perhaps 50,000 a person, or 100,000 per couple/family) a tax credit for that amount, which they can use at anytime during the year by filling out a form. That way no one need ever be without basic insurance.
Obama has said he’s leaving the details to be thrashed out by Congress, having learned from Clinton’s failure. But the details will determine whether it’s a plan which will simply help Medicare and Medicaid recipients and raise costs for everyone else; whether it’s a repeat of the Massachusetts experiment, whether it really contains costs not just for the government but for everyone; or if he is successful in really giving true universal healthcare where everyone gets the healthcare they need when they need it.



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Good Morning Ian!. Now to read…
Well there is a problem with affordability- but there’s also a problem with the young- who avoid health insurance like the plague unless it’s free. They’d rather spend the money on a nicer car or whatever and they don’t expect to ever get sick. If they would all pony up- average costs would go way down- and everyone involved knows it.
just curious .. how are we going to “make” everyone buy coverage ?? the homeless come immediately to mind .. how will they “buy” coverage ??
Data doesn’t entirely support that, iirc. They want insurance, many of them just can’t afford it.
Thanks Ian, digg is open.
I agree with all that you said, but don’t you think this is probably necessary to get to universal healthcare (single payer) from where we are now? Listening to discussions throughout the campaign, I had the impression that the Clinton & Edwards plans particularly were designed so that there would be a process to move from private insurance gradually rather than abruptly–but the goal was still single payer once everyone realized that they were going to be dumped by the private insurers when they got really sick and once employers realized they could stop providing insurance. Was I being too optimistic?
In principle you subsidize such people. People who do make enough have to buy insurance or they are fined.
I don’t like mandates, I prefer single payor, but mandates can work. If you do them right.
I’m not sure if that was the plan. I think what a lot of people hope is that if there’s a public plan it will beat private plans (public plans are usually cheaper) and eventually you’ll get single payor more less defacto. What I would say is that this will only happen if you make sure private and public plans are actually competing on even grounds and don’t allow private plans to cherry pick.
“adverse selection” is a massive problem in health insurance. Those who are not healthy ALL want insurance- and they represent the bulk of the expense, wheras the HEALTHY don’t want to pay the premium. If cost containment is the goal- this must be dealt with somehow. Making insurance mandatory is one way- having it provided to all is another.
Ironically, it is with the “sickest” that the govt. can probably reduce costs the most. Hospitals don’t currently get paid for many of them- so they would be open to dealing with the govt. on “high cost” cases-say those that exceeed $100k in a given year.
If the govt. were to take over JUST the high cost cases,they would be assuming the bulk of the health care expenditures and would maximize the public’s leverage in lowering those expenses.
Interesting. If they can’t afford insurance, how will they pay fines?
okay .. so the amount of the fine is equivalent to the cost of carry ..and the fine would be dismissed if carry could be then demonstrated ..
thanks for the clarification .. but .. imo .. mandating coverage won’t magically make the money to afford it appear ..
aha … we “crossed” in a way there .. :)
How does it work in MA? Isn’t it some kind of box you check on you state income tax form?
I was HR VP for a while and faced this issue continuously. Our young employees opt out of coverage if given a chance….I doubt if the situation has changed. Their opting out meant that the costs for everyone else went up- which created further disincentive for the younger workers to join the plan. Its a viscious cycle
Ian, you make it all sound so logical. But won’t the repugs fight tooth and nail against any change? Is there any hope of blocking their poison arrows?
Allied thot: WHEN, oh when will we see Franken duly and surely sworn in?!
We need every vote we can get. McConnell et al have all sworn oaths to disrupt and block anything that smacks of progress.
and for people who are homeless, or don’t make enough to file income tax forms?
if there is going to be a subsidy, why does it have to require all this paper work? why not cover everyone, without a requirement for opting in, in the basic gov plan as a default?
The government tends to get what it wants when it send the IRS breathing down your neck. That’s why doing it right, and not the Mass way, is very important.
This is the car insurnace model for health insurance. I don’t know too many people who are happy with their car insurance. Still, mandates /can/ be done right.
Was Winston Smith in charge of mandatory insurance coverage buying for poor people. Supposedly there are 45,000,000 po peoples wit no health care..OR THE ABILITY TO BUY SOME. DUH!
dunno eCAHN .. i’m in tennessee ..and i’m self-pay .. i have RA as a pre-existing condition .. no carrier will cover me .. period … and ..as i’m self employed .. i don’t qualify for any state or federal coverage as well ..
Only need one Republican vote. But yes, I’m sure they’ll try and make sure it isn’t done right. But if you do it wrong, it will make people hate government health insurance. You want to be forced to buy something you can’t afford that doesn’t really cover all your needs? That’s entirely possible if it’s done wrong.
Well, I’d prefer that. But they aren’t offering that, are they? However, even under mandates there are ways to cover homeless etc…
The issues are:
those who can’t afford insurance
those who can’t qualify for insurance
those who don’t want to pay for insurance
All need to be addressed.
It’s pretty easy to with “those who don’t qualify”- pass a law requiring insurance companies to insure all applicants regardless of medical history. That would be a good start in solving the problem.
Historically, haven’t mandates been used as a way of the fed govt avoiding the problem?
Representative anecdote. About 3 decades ago, I was at a NABE (Nat Assn Business Economists) conference in DC. The first night’s cocktail hour had some senators in attendance. Domenici was one. (Can’t remember who the others were.) Not knowing his history, I asked: One of the things I’ve learned today is that the U.S. govt is increasing passing its costs onto others thru mandates. Have any of you (meaning all the pols present) every passed legislation mandating that others, like state and local govs or businesses, be mandated to pay for programs? Dominici went ballistic and attacked me because, of course, I found out later, he was responsible for passing mandates for mental heath benefits.
Any plan that cuts the insurance companies out of the action will create a life and death battle from them- understandably. Might be worth the fight, but Obama needs to be sure he’s got the votes before picking that battle.
Thanks. I second that, knowing a number of that category and their frustration with the current situation.
BTW, since I’m sick of the sniping at Starbucks as elitist fare, I just want to take this opportunity to commend them for offering health coverage plans to all employees who work at least half time overall (flex scheduling is just fine with them; so is getting coverage for domestic partner).
Let McDonald’s kaffe-lite put that in their cup and cap it!
Thank you, (((Starbucks management))) for being sane and humane even before it’s popular across the land!
Health care not insurance!
from pnhp: National Lessons from State Health Reform: The Massachusetts Case Study (video to be posted today)
from pnhp’s blog: Massachusetts’ plan is the wrong model for the U.S. (w links to report pdf and press release).
from press release:
OT .. but with the GOP tightening the screws on those who break ranks .. i.e. encouraging primary challengers to snowe .. collins .. spectre .. we should just ry to flip them to caucus with the democrats … eh ??
Sorry, let my frustration over ride my manners. Thanks, Ian.
How do dems create a primary challenge to goopers? I don’t get it.
Not enough details yet to do other than speculate.
I’mm waithing for the statement “We believe in a private insurance systems” then I’ll kown its all smoke and mirrors and go back to live in my sister’s basement in the UK.
It’s a safe bet that the HMOs will be fueling the fire of hating government insurance. Oh, wait. They already are. Seems to me a core constituency would be small business. Big bidness is going to feel bi-polar on this one, right? Given the reality of the impact of lower health costs on their bottom line vs. Evil Government taking charge of this issue.
i think they should be.
obama’s plan (at least as i understand the broad outlines) doesn’t stack up when compared other proposals like hr 676.
yeah .. thanks ian .. i often forget that .. imo ..a response to a posting is a “thanks” all by itself .. i’m normally not here often enough to remember the posting culture ..
no.. no .. the GOP is threatening to put primary challengers up against any and all who break party ranks and cross the aisle ..
I would think that most businesses would love to have the govt. pick up the tab for health insurance and let them return the premiums to shareholders.
Thanks for this, selise. Now to read…
OK- got it- I misread.
I’d luv to see some-a that! Might not take much. never seen such an humungous pile of courage all stuffed into such a small bunch of lege-ers. heh. I’ll poke it if you will. ;->
I agree. Two of my daughters worked at Starbucks in the past and really liked it and the health coverage.
I wish obama would stop saying he’s going to pay for this by “raising taxes on the wealthy”
instead;
“we intend on eliminating the tax gifts that were given to the wealthy at the expense of our nations economic security”
So does it follow that a key to health care reform is to engage business, who in turn might lean on Congress? Is that hopelessly simplistic?
“lowering taxes for the wealthy has not improved our economy, it has not improved manufacturing and it has not created quality jobs, the practice has eliminated jobs.
what we were left with amounted to giving middle class assets to the wealthy.
we intend on reclaiming those assets and giving them back to our infrastructure and our economic security”
he can use that if he wants to co-opt it I won’t even complaign
George Lakoff would love you!
tell him directly. i imagine he’s got a website, ahem. ;->
If every member in Congress was a Democrat, they would argue they didn’t have the votes. For a lot of programs, they need to be brought up and knocked down a few times before they build a sufficient constituecy to get them passed. It is a Catch-22 to not bring up a bill because you don’t have the votes because you haven’t brought up the bill to start getting the votes.
ot – listening to volcker’s testimony before the JEC. he just said that he does not favor reinstating glass-steagall, but then went on to describe the need for regulations. a little confusing and i wasn’t giving it enough attention to make sense of the statement.
Makes sense to me- and many businesses are already on board. There would be some value in a “show of force”- say a conference of business leaders demonstrating their support for change- it seems to me that this needs to move quickly- the longer the time before action, the more viscious the insurance companies will get.
Docs are for change too as are hospitals as they lose a lot of revenue from people who can’t pay.
I don’t think the car insurance model is a good one. A person can choose not to have a car. They can live in a city with mass transit, or in an area where they can walk to work and services. No insurance required.
No one can choose to not have health care. If you have a heart attack, or are hit by a bus, you will be taken to a hospital and treated. If you catch a communicable disease, you damn well better get to a doctor and be treated, or you’ll be endangering others just as much as a drunk driver does, but without having made any bad choices in the matter. How are you going to fine the impoverished young man, lying in the ICU, who couldn’t afford to buy insurance?
Single payer is the only reasonable answer.
linky for suggestions?
so we keep pestering…
the most important thing is to keep the powder dry.
I don’t think Obama can afford to lose a vote on this issue. It will take months to get a bill to the point that it’s ready for a vote- if he runs it up the flag pole and doesn’t get a salute- he’s (we’re) in deep shit as the opposition will grow and entrench.
Docs and hospitals will need to carefully frame this as a cost-benefit to patients, thus improving patient access to care. If there’s even a sniff of “we’re losing money,” though most people know that, they’ll enjoy as much love as the HMOs.
linky? reely? honestly??
shall i google POTUS Obama for you, or would you like to try your hand at it?
Sincere apologies here. This be a snarky morn at our house, and you’re a very smart, resourceful guy. No? *g*
since a time long before we rose to walk on two legs primates have had universal health care, where everyone guards those less able and the young
a pride of lions has universal health care
a pack of wolves have universal health care
it is the nature of a society to strengthen your weakest link, because like a chain, societies are only as strong as the weakest among us.
and the argument for those who say;
“but that’s socialism”
it’s not, simply because those who want to get their own health coverage are not only welcome to do it, they are encouraged
in addition, private health care will be FAR less expensive
You’re missing one:
Those who want insurance and can’t figure out what the plans are providing and how much they’d be paying, because all the f*cking information on them is written by insurance company lawyers
I didn’t finnish
it will be far less expensive because it will have to compete with universal health care and there will have to be real value for a person to pay for it
This is a very important post. Please DIGG it!
I can handle snark, tiz the truth I swear it
going to the site now, thanx for the push adie!
How are you listening to that? The link in your diary didn’t work for me.
I have heard stories of my great-grandfather who paid the Sisters of Mercy for an extended stay in the hospital with a wagon load of corn and root vegetables. Sometimes I long for the old days………..
careful there with yer examples, son. those gals work long & hard pullin’ down the vittles, & regularly chase off the extra young-adult males when they’ve had a hard day and have no patience for shiftless snarkers. ;->
Back to Lakoff. Did you see his Obama Code piece yesterday? He takes on the matter of conservative ideology running counter to American values. It’s a very good read.
The options are not options, they are distractions. Care needs to be for everyone, and free for all. WE, the people, won’t settle for anything less. I am sorry, but an insurance company is a parasite on civilization. It takes without return for services that either should not be required, or that should be provided.
People that work for insurance companies might consider what new career they would move to. Don’t wait. Those of us that have already lost their business, their lifestyle, their lives, will help support you. But we have to rid the world of your type of job. It promotes bad behavior that people will continue until there is no “insurance” for assisted theft.
time for a “change” let’s join the civilized nations, shall we?
This is one of the problems I see with these selective approaches, a one size fits all strategy. Not all hospitals are the same, nor are all patient populations. A hospital that gets poorer patients may have a lot of returnees because patients may not be compliant, may not understand what they are supposed to do, can’t afford medications, or come from a sicker population. Also institutions that service poorer populations may not attract the best and the brightest so their success rates compared to a clean and mean hospital in the nicer part of town will also be less favorable.
I should also say I don’t see how mandates can work in this country. There are always a zillion holes that people are dropped into or fall through. If we want a universal system, then we need one that says you’re covered, period.
Obama has said he’s leaving the details to be thrashed out by Congress
Herein lies the problem. There is no chance of anything good coming out of a Congress that contains the ideas of even one republicant. They just don’t give a rats ass about anyone. In their minds it’s a matter of personal responsibility.
heh. I’m just covering my own ***. I haven’t tried, myself, yet. *blush*
p.e.a.c.e., good friend *g*
i have been saying that SCREAMING that for 10 years
if your sitting on a plane and the guy has TB with no insurance…he is TEH CONTAIGOUS………………..DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYUM is that so hard to understand
Do you have a link? I tried the one from you oxdown diary and got a Can not find message.
NOT FORP ROFIT HOSPs,NOTFOR PROFIT healthcare
only thing that makes ANY SENSE at all
The blessing and the curse of so-called shrill liberals is that we are not at least situationally shrill. (Okay, KO gets a pass on this.) If it’s an all-the-time deal, as with the right, it loses its effectiveness (she said hopefully). I long for Howard Dean in HHS. Shrill cost him his presidential run. But only because the right clobbered him and the left let it happen.
Someone(s) needs to stare into the teevee camera, raise their voice a notch or three, and ’splain to the people that we’ve got a big problem re health care. You don’t think you have a problem, brother, because you have yours? You need to take a step back and see the bigger picture. Because when some have a problem, everyone has a problem. And if it doesn’t grab at your heart and conscience, ya better grab your wallet, because it’s gonna gnaw right through it and bite you in the butt!
VA-style healthcare for all………..want fancy…pay your own
A payroll tax can be established on a progressive basis. Employers can reimburse employees if it is part of their package. Employees could sign up for federal program or receive vouchers to send to private carriers if that is their desire. Unemployed would also have the same options. Not to complicated.
Most think that the Clinton’s blew health care by trying to draft the entire plan in the White House and then present it to congress as a fait accompli. Obama’s trying to avoid that. He should, and probably will, give congress a list of requirements for legislation that he would be willing to sign- minimum standards if you will.
well, he has a point. Congresscritters are rather capable of engaging in lively bouts of thrashing about during bidness hours unending.
For those who want JEC hearing with Volcker, selise’s link didn’t work for me. I found it, and hopefully this will work for everyone.
see 69…heheheheheheee
ITS CALLED PUBLIC health! damnit
Please see my link at 64.
Bumper sticker. Booyah!!
I have used VA for some time and like it but I don’t think that all doctors would care to go to work for the government.
Insurance is 30% waste and fraud……….. dumpit
Hey ! How am I s’posed to buy that new Gulfstream ?
Point taken. My concern is the repubulics will make certain this plan is ineffective because they don’t care about people. They want the President and the country to fail.
i know i’m a broken record on this, but here goes again:
the single payer story is that conyers introduced a bill for single payer in 2003 (38 cosponsors), 2005 (78 cosponsors) and 2007 (93 cosponsors). and he’s just introduced it again for the 111th congress. each time there have been a lot more cosponsors. there are groups that have been working for years on the issue (pnhp since 1987), and momentum is growing.
from the pnhp blog:
and this is only a small part of the organizations that are working to push for hr676. so much of the ground work has already been done. the question i have is do we want to join that effort?
ok, just sent my suggestion on the “contact us” link;
young ones just out of school ,could pay off studentloans as a swap
Yessss! Another major talking point. Pandemic, anyone? The public health gurus (guri?) are clear we can expect one sooner or later. How’s that Black Plague thingie lookin’ to ya, folks? (See, we can do fear-mongering, too!)
This has to be the main talking point for Obama and The Dems, if they are going to get any progressive issues passed.
Agreed but I don’t think we could mandate it.
Man-oh-man, I’m right with you on that! Drives me NUTS that so few can understand the very real and present danger to the whole of society, when we do not ensure the existence of universal health care.
HELLOOOOO CONGRESS:
PULEEZE to pay attention!
Sick folks who cannot afford health care are sometimes contageous, frightfully so.
You WANT them to have health care, for YOUR OWN sake as well as theirs.
Rinse and repeat….
Maybe if we rephrase it so it sounds greedy, McConnell & Co. will unnerstand. Is that asking too much of his lizard-brain?!
*apologies to all lizards.
Those Republics are not scared of challengers. However, they do fear the wrath of el Rushbo.
Thanks as always, Selise !
here’s a simple argument, nobody will deny it no matter which side of the debate a person takes;
“private health care is in the business of turning profit and therefore in the business of denying claims
public health care is in the business of accepting claims, their goal is not profit, their goal is returning a person back to productivity”
Apology accepted !
Adie !
Insurance companies are sucking dollars out of the economy. I have been paying outrageous insurance forever as a self-employed person. When I tried to switch to another plan to save money, they denied coverage. I have never had a covered event with them. Their grounds were insupportable, but I am now in a pool for people who can’t get coverage any other way. It costs less, but I have crappy hospital choices, if I ever need to go to one.
My contempt for them knows no bounds.
THANKS!
re volcker hearing – sorry about the busted link, i can’t edit the diary but i think acquarius74 put a good one in the comments. the hearing is now on a temp break. if anyone is interested, i’ve recorded the audio and can post it.
Excellent, Perris ! Let’s get the critters in Congress to read this thread, over and over …
EXPOSE THESE MOFOs
On October 15, 2006, it was announced that McGuire would step down immediately as chairman and director of UnitedHealth Group, and step down as CEO on December 1, 2006 due to his involvement in the employee stock options scandal. Simultaneously, it was announced that he would be replaced as CEO by Stephen Hemsley, who has served as President and COO and is a member of the board of directors. [12] McGuire’s exit compensation from UnitedHealth, expected to be around $1.1 billion, would be the largest golden parachute in the history of corporate America.[13]
;->
they are NOT stupid
IT IS WILLFULL AND CRIMMINAL NEGLECT!!!!!!!!
The government is not in the business to make money. Remember, the government can not give anything to you that it has not already taken from someone else.
Be very careful of what you wish for…
The first job is to make the public understand that single payer is NOT socialized medicine. That scares people.
It’s just that, if everyone can have healthcare, what’s the point of working hard to be born wealthy? Bush did it. It’s not his fault the rest of us didn’t.
private health care is in the business of turning profit and therefore in the business of denying claims
————————
AND I HATE TO SAY THIS
doing unnecessary operations on those with the best insurance
IVE wittnessed it
See Michael Moore’s “Sicko,” though some will have to suspend their disbelief to believe what is presented there re the issue of rejecting claims.
My own tiny example? Paid $800/month for health insurance for many years. No claims beyond annual preventive maintenance (oil change, belts, etc.)
Multiple sprains in foot. Doc prescribed orthotics. $400. Not a big thing in the grand scheme. Claim denied. WTF?
sue em
What is so hard with “everyone gets health care. period.”???????? All of these notions that we have problems with people complying, etc.would simply disappear. When is this country going to quit bullshitting itself about its own accountability to the citizens????? The concept is clear. Health care for all. Fuck insurance. I have seen too many DIE because of greed and lack of action.
Dammit, I knew I didn’t need that Hysterectomy.
okay must go clean 4 litter boxes,love you all
SICKEM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basic (read: adequate) coverage for all. VIP suite at Mayo costs out of pocket.
I agree that insurance companies are unecessary leeches on the countries health care system however profit margins at hospitals and clinics needs to be examined also.
Oh, well, of course there’s that! *g*
IT IS another corporate..MEDIA LIE….period
Well, crap, it’s a shell game across the board. Insurance and/or Medicare will only pay partially. Ergo, costs inflated in anticipation of partial payment. From the moment that game started, it has escalated exponentially year after year after year. Regroup!
The mafia of the intelligentsia concept just assures that there will be excess costs, profits, incomes, wastes of all sorts. It does not determine where those will show up. That is determined by mud fights, scratching out of eyes, side deals, etc, i.e. “nonmarket” forces.
Beg to differ on that one point.
By not attending to that one point: the very real danger to themselves and their own from free-roaming, uncontrolled pathogens, in this day of constant world-wide travel….. maybe, instead of “stupid”, you would prefer I suggest that they are acting in a dunder-headed manner unnecessarily putting themSELVES at greater risk than is indicative of true wisdom. (?)
Further: Of COURSE! I agree. What they’re doing is indeed willful and criminal neglect.
I think we’re on the same page. I just tweaked the situation to another level parallel to and in addition to yours (not intended to replace your very valid point).
i don’t know if this is quite right, but i think of single payer as socialized insurance (not medicine).
Corporate fascism has destroyed the democracy in this country. No more shadow government!!! They have taken our power and we are only now understanding the damage done. Where are these corporate giants going to go with all of their riches? Are they all going to end up in a fake island in Dubai? Bad, evil people. Killers, all.
Health care is a right.
Housing is a right.
Food is a right.
I am mad. I know too much today. I learned yesterday that 6000 children in the Sacramento school system have NO home to go to after school and the shelters are full. WTF?
JEC hearings back live.
thanx barbara, I just went over to that link and posted my thingy
I am pro-active today
Amen!
i just read where susan collins blasted jindal ..and others .. but now i can’t find it to link to.. i think she’s ready to flip to a dem ..
Booyah! I didn’t comment. Will, though. Thanks for leading the way!
panel 2 is up now (volcker’s testimony is over).
we luvs u for that, and that’s the honest truth.
*hands truffle thru the toobz*
Great! Heard the same thing about Al Franken!! *g* Stand by.
Got it. Thanks.
And this is a problem how? /s
easy big boy. u want it? consider it done.
take that seat over there. we’ll be right with you. general? or will just a local spinal do it for ya? ;->
OH! And that WAS the LEFT knee, right?
Altman likes lending tax dollars to hedge funds to buy toxic assets. Arrrgghhh.
Diagnosis before cure. *g*
Under socialized medicine the gov’t would own the health facilities and pay for the doctors and nurses. Can’t say that I like the idea of the gov’t owning anything else and certainly not having anything to say about my health care. Although I must admit that Social Security is very efficient.
Amen to that, sister!!
FOUR? Whew! I mean, WHAT FUN!
UK is the only western European countries where the govt runs the medical industry, I think. In others with national health, the govt pays private providers, I think. Seems to work both ways.
no, they wouldn’t own the health facilities, they’d own government health facilities
they wouldn’t pay doctors and nurses, they would pay the doctors and nurses when they worked for universal health care, when they worked privately then the private health care would pay doctors and nurses
whoever you wanted to use privately would own private facilities
in addition I suspect the government would not commandeer private hospitals
From all I’ve read so far, the Obama administration plans will fail miserably. The CORE PROBLEM is in fact the very for-profit insurance industry they’re trying to save instead of helping the American people. Anyone who has ever dealt with a recalcitrant private “health” insurer knows exactly what I’m talking about.
Private health insurance is a crock of shit. MAKING people buy it can’t possibly work, as anyone with half a brain will refuse to participate. Hell, I already refuse. This simply will not fly.
AT JEC hearings, Altman made no sense, the second speaker (don’t know if it was Mason or Posen) was brilliant. Sez public-private partnerships are a crock, and nationalization is not the problems that its opponent say, because there will be only a few banks that are totally bust.
How much do you have to say about your health care now?
Under the heading of, “You have got to be kidding me !” …
Jindal Goes To Disney World After Tuesday’s Speech
Did he think he’d just won the Super Bowl ?
An inherent problem in the mafia of the intelligentsia is that it infantalizes the customer (patient in the case of the medical industry).
Yes. One thing I know for sure is that I am not to be treated as an infant whose needs might be met. I am a pissed off little old lady.
oh that’s just perfect.
ahem, please to check short way upthread (131,132) for epu’d messages, kind sir.
LOL !!!
No anesthetic needed … I brought a Mickey along
With the current state of affairs in American healthcare careening towards cliffside with out of control cost growth the selection process is very much governed by who can pay and who cannot. This surely is not a fair or equitable. Sure as hell seems out of whack when WashingtonDC can send $10 billion a month to support the American Debacle in Iraq for several years running and that is not coming to an end anytime soon.
American healthcare needs to be fully taken down,apart and put back together that reflects how Americans live or must live in this 21st century.
Not for how we lived in 1900 or 1950.
Barack Obama has the opportunity to do what needs to be done.
Not doing it now is the worst of kick the can process and policy put off.
Yep. I think this Health Care Bill, when passed will show everyone what kind of leader Harry Reid is.
please to answer 132 so we may know how to direct your deductible. ;->
*spew*
… mops Soup off Monitor …
I’m on Medicare now but have never had any trouble using my own doctors and such. The last insurance company nearly drove me crazy but the new one seems to be better. Haven’t really tested it too much.
I have no doubt that there are many private insurance companies that do bogus stuff to their enrolled members. However, I am on Medicare, which only pays 80% of the medical bills. Since I am disabled and on a fixed income, and 20% of my annual med bills would vastly exceed what I could afford, especially if you include prescription drug costs, I am able to buy a Medicare Advantage Plan that takes care of my medical bills and the pharmacy costs except for copays which, while a little high, are certainly better than the 80% option. I don’t think private insurance will go away; I just think they’ll have to learn to be satisfied with a reasonable profit and some restrictions regarding to how they can treat people. Big brother, in this case, will be watching them. I think that’s as it should be. It’s called oversight!
this is serious subject matter, which must be treated in a realistic manner.
*hands handiwipe thru toobz*
pretty sure that was mason – thought he was great too.
If you want socialized medicine then try living in Canada or Europe for a while. You wait around for day’s to get answers, it could be month’s before you can have an operation to save your life. The grass is always greener somewhere else. Try it before you buy it.
Bullshit ! This remark is offensive and inaccurate.
This may be true. What about the 50 million in this country with NO care. How long are they waiting? Many have lost homes due to the unfortunate illness of a family member. Many have died. DIED due to lack of continuity of care. I remember when “continuity of care” was the formula for decent medical care. I would rather wait for care than have none at all. And, where is the rule that we cannot do better than the other countries? Why do we define our system by the failures of others?
Main Entry:
Pronunciation:
ə-ˈfen(t)-siv, especially for 1 ˈä-ˌfen(t)-, ˈȯ-
Function:
adjective
Date:
circa 1564
1 a: making attack : aggressive b: of, relating to, or designed for attack c: of or relating to an attempt to score in a game or contest ; also : of or relating to a team in possession of the ball or puck
2: giving painful or unpleasant sensations : nauseous , obnoxious
3: causing displeasure or resentment
I would consider foul language to fit into the above category not factual comments.
If we have to have insurance companies, we have to have limits on what they can do.
I feel strongly if you only made one change and made them take on any person regardless of condition, millions of people would have healthcare immediately. There are so many people out there that want it and are not offered it at any price.
There is already a system whereby the sick are moved off the rolls. If a person gets sick, Cobra, if you can afford it is only 18 months then you are out. If you are in a small company in Louisiana 12 months and you are out. Remember both of these scenarios are if you can afford the premiums which they can charge up to 150% of what they pay for you when you work there. This is complete BS. Only very very conservitave savers have money for this. You either go into debt to pay for your Cobra or you spend all your savings like I did. (I was not even sick when I went without a job for a year and a half. It cost me almost $5,000 a year to maintain coverage.)
I think there should be either a program, or a mandate that the insurance companies continue to cover you at a reasonable cost when or if you get sick. The fact that they can drop you after 18 months is truly insane. How many illnesses have a beginning and an end like that?
Remember these companies are in the business of not paying claims. Their profits have gone through the roof in recent years. Of course they are all going to be crying about how they are losing money now that the stock market is down. Well they should have saved some of their 28% profits over the good times of the stock market.
There are no easy answers to this problem, but limiting profits of insurance companies would go a long way to covering more people.
It’s really not fair to compare our country to other counties with regard to individual mandates.
individual mandates work fine in other countries because corporate interests don’t run the government to the extent they do here.
So the real problem, the primary obstacle to healthcare–and many other things in the U.S.–is taking the corporate power out of our government.
Everything else–like placing “very strict cost controls on insurers” is just chasing windmills.
This avoidance of the real problem has been going on now for well over 40 years. And continued avoidance is not going to come up with a new result.
just plain false
and let me ask you something, how long does it take to get an operation here?
in addition, under universal health care you can still purchase private health care.
did you have anything factual in your post?
according to you and priviteers, yes, according to the facts, no
I remember when health care in America worked much better. What happened?
“Europe” is a continent with quite a lot different countries, each with its own health care system:
- the UK and the Nordic countries use the “socialist” Beveridge model: the state runs hospitals and other health care providers. Financed by the general budget.
- France (and IIRC Italy) has a semi-Government run, payroll financed single-payer-system.
- the Germanic countries use the original Bismarck model: the “mandatory car insurance” model, with multiple non-government but non-profit payers. (in Germany for example they’re similar to cooperations)
All very different, but they’re all universal…
For more information I recommend watching Sick aroud the World from PBS.