Clive Stafford Smith, head of a legal charity called Reprieve, called President Obama’s strategy "the Bagram bait and switch," where the administration was trumpeting the closure of a camp housing 242 prisoners, while scaling up the Bagram base to house 1,100 more.
"Guantanamo Bay was a diversionary tactic in the ‘War on Terror’," said the lawyer. "Totting up the prisoners around the world — held by the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, Djibouti, the prison ships and Diego Garcia, or held by U.S. proxies in Jordan, Egypt and Morocco — the numbers dwarf Guantanamo. There are still perhaps as many as 18,000 people in legal black holes. Mr. Obama should perhaps be offered more than a month to get the American house in order. However, this early sally from the administration underlines another message: it is far too early for human rights advocates to stand on the USS Abraham Lincoln and announce, ‘Mission Accomplished.’"
Well, isn’t that something special. And yes, it appears to be a hellhole:
Apart from staff at the International Red Cross, human rights groups and journalists have been barred from Bagram, where former prisoners say they were tortured by being shackled to the ceiling of isolation cells and deprived of sleep…
…the Red Cross issued a formal complaint to the U.S. government in 2007 about harsh treatment of some prisoners held in isolation for months.
In general my feeling is that escalating in Afghanistan is a mistake for the Obama administration. Bagram may well be their Guantanamo, and Afghanistan overall will be their… Afghanistan, actually. I don’t think it’s going to even turn out as well as Iraq did, so to speak.
I often wonder if Putin laughs himself sick every evening watching the US do to itself in Afghanistan what the USSR did back in the 80s. I certainly would if I were him. Then I’d help the US, because when your enemy is destroying himself you help him along (and the US has repeatedly declared itself inimical to Russia, with its support of Georgia and its insistence on slapping missile defense down on Russia’s borders).
Afghanistan is going to be Obama’s bleeding ulcer.
Related posts:
- Taxi to Guantanamo: Uzbek Driver, Under 18 When Detained, Released to Ireland
- Pete Hoekstra: US Shouldn’t Close Guantanamo — It’s a “Great Place”
- How to Leave Guantanamo in 10 Days
- McChrystal Acknowledges Growth of Insurgency; Seems Tragically Ignorant of Why
- Rock and Rap Stars Join FOIA Request to Reveal How Music was Used in Torture at Guantanamo, Other US Facilities
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And tell me what you think would happen if we left tomorrow?
There has been a lot of speculation that our efforts in Afghanistan have gone awry because we were distracted by Iraq. Personally, I think it was inevitable that we’d fail in Afghanistan even if we hadn’t invaded Iraq. I hope Obama realizes sooner than later that doubling down is not a solution.
Most likely a failed state. If we stay for another ten years the ultimmate result will likely be the same.
Sorta like when the russians left and we bailed on the Afghanie’s?
I often wonder if Putin laughs himself sick every evening watching the US do to itself in Afghanistan
waswhat the USSR did back in the 80s.Ian, I think you meant “what” not “was”.
Pelosi says she could not object to anything because it was classified.
Gee — Ya freaking think? Or should we just denounce him as a failure and torturer now and get it over with?
If you have cable you should be watching Rachel and Nancy.
Yes. Indeed…
If we want $ to finance our country we could stop killing and torturing Iraqis and Afghanis and Pakistanis and destroying their infrastructure as well as grossly injuring our own military AND BRING THE WARS TO A CLOSE. And we could stop supporting Israel in its wars of aggression with its neighbors.
Bailing on Afghanistan after the Soviets left is just a rationalization for more U.S. interventionism. The Soviets would have failed eventually if we hadn’t armed and trained the tribesmen. Those tactics nearly always come back to bite us in the ass.
Yes Rachel and Nancy…there is news there.
Pelosi calling for no immunity if there is a truth commission. Not sure if this kills it, but I like the sound of it anyway.
Which tactics, bailing or giving stingers to the jihadi’s?
I don’t think it matters what happens there. What we can do is probably at lower cost settle all the Afghans who want to in the USA and save a lot of lives and a lotta cash.
We need to get out of the war on terrorism BUSINESS it’s a lose lose lose situation. This may be Obi’s downfall as the left gets on his case. He’s not made it for sucking up to the military which sees everything in the world as a “security threat” to the USA which requires military presence. That’s hogwash and we need to downsize the military, DOD the MIC and the mercenary operations like Blackwater and CACI etc.
We got some work to do at home.
DIGG IS OPEN
The Afghanis have been whipping imperialist ass since before Rudyard Kipling wrote about it. I don’t see us doing any much better than anyone else.
The latter, we shouldn’t have involved ourselves to begin with.
If we make weapons manufacturing and sales unlawful the stinger problem will go away in time. Right?
Yea, like we “settled” the Vietnamese, Hmong, Laotion’s.
America’s foreign policy should be humanitarian aid – end of story.
Somebody else will pick up the slack. Supply will always rise to the level of demand.
.
Could not agree more.
My question is how long do we allow Obama to act like a war criminal before we demand the same justice we expect of the likes of Bush and Cheney? IMO, time is almost up.
Dugg
woops. Thanks.
I clearly recall lefty demonstrators behind the Union with signs saying, “Smash Muslim Resistance in Afghanistan” and “Hail the Red Army”. I can tell you their names.
18,000 enemy combatants in black holes with no plans to release them?
We are worse than we thought. More puppet governments? The price is paid in blood, lost lives and mind boggling sums of the public treasury. Why? What are the benefits? Occupying more countries? WTF
Yes. Three cups of tea at a time…
The U.S. is fairly adept at achieving short, well-defined military objectives. We completely suck at nation-building.
Like Europe and Korea?
That might be your foreign policy, but it seems jsut a little simple.
There is just something about Pelosi’s chat with Rachel that makes me think 95% on the bullshit scale. Actually the whole interview creeped me out. Maybe Pelosi is plum worn out after all that exercise she incurred cheering on the new president last evening.
We have to talk the talk of our “american values” AND walk the walk. Enough hypocrisy.
We did fairly well with this one, and I think we should stick to our knitting here for quite a long time…
They were misguided, to put it charitably. The U.S./Soviet Union proxy wars had no upside, except to arms manufacturers.
greenwarrior
When will they ever learn? Pathetic/dangerous ignorant bastards. MIC is destroying our planet and our reputation as a world moral leader. What right do these war mongers have to sacrifice our secuity for their power trip?
Add Japan.
Socialist Worker Party
I thought I get in trouble cuz Europe ain’t a counrty.
i’m there.
Why? The USA is one of the only countries to have military operations in other nations. It’s a bad idea and we need to find a new way.
I don’t see why we don’t take out troops home from both Europe and Asia and the 170 bases and scores of nations where we have a military presence.
it was pretty much just a pile of bricks and bones shards when we started rebuilding it.
Which the war mongering MIC did to them Europeans.
Post WWII Europe and Japan were examples of nation “rebuilding” and they had the motivation to do so, it wasn’t simply a matter of imposing our will. South Korea was different but the desire to modernize their country was mutual.
Rebuilding is humanitarian, re bombing is not.
Because there are actually some people who are worse than us, even when we’re at our worst.
Our military bases in other nations are sometimes popular and useful.
Not that our last years have been less than ugly.
There’s still many things to do, things that might restore some of our squandered reputation, instead of simply saying we suck.
OT… An analogy Rachel just used:
I love that woman….
Just 95 ? You are being too kind…)
Not just the crime, but her endless determined coverup.
You think Pakistan could use some of our help?
I think that there are a great many people there that are highly motivated.
Interesting film in the NYT about girls in the Swat valley.
Didja hear Pelosi say that Health Care Reform comes first ?
Seems like she and Reid might be in sync.
We can but pray…
Japan had centuries of Imperial Rule … where did the will of democracy come from ?
My cousin was a bombadier…The allies sytematically destroyed Dresden and many other cities in WWII. The bombing mission went on and on until the industrial base was decimated We did not rebuild Europe the Eurpeans did it. We had a Marshall Plan but have boots on the ground every since.
We anihilated civilian cities in Japan with the atom bomb…genocide. Two wrongs don’t make a right. We did the same in North Vietnam. Mai Lai.
Are you proud of that Raven? If you are you must like the Isreali mass murder of Gazans trapped in the vice of a siege. To me all that is insanity.
Historically, Europeans and their descendants (such as us) make a complete mess of things when we meddle in Muslim nations.
BWAAHAHAHAHA… Nancy Pelosi just said “bless their hearts” when referring to Republicans!!!! (Maybe you have to be a Southerner to understand why I’m howling…)
You’re right, we did impose our will to a large extent in Japan.
She said that about Bush as well … *g*
a lot of Americans would be home for the start of baseball season and we might save enough money to fund healthcare for the uninsured in this country.
A conference discussing that issue.
**********
Conference on military bases
Date 27 February 2009
End Date 2 March 2009
Location Washington, US
Description VENUE: American University, Washington, US
http://www.tni.org/detail_even…..;keywords=
That’s rubbish. People are no different anywhere. It depends on how they are treated and the quality of their lives.
In any case no nation is a threat to the USA. Not a one.
The British destroyed Dresden. We firebombed Tokyo, killing more in that night than were killed by either a-bomb. Calling it shameful is fair, calling genocide is silly.
And we sure as hell did rebuild both Europe and Japan.
The Europeans had no money for anything. They couldn’t even feed themselves and were using furniture for firewood.
There’s a rather good book that goes into much detail.
Postwar by Tony Judt.
I’m with Big B he’s right on.
A zinger!
I don`t speak southern, but that one I do understand!
No, I don’t think Pakistan can use or needs our help.
We don’t have a thing to offer to these people. We don’t know their culture and we have no business being there. End of Story.
The CIA took the top 10% of every Marshall dollar spent.
A zinger indeed, and take it from someone who works in healthcare — all too true.
Because?
A failed state is what it is already called by the US. That is how it was justified to say that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to Afghanistan detainees. I don’t remember where I read that..might have been in one of Yoo’s fiction pieces, or might have been in Guantanamo SOP manuals.
The CIA is part of the problem not part of the solution, but everyone is afraid to say it because they like their knees.
You might like this…
http://narcosphere.narconews.c…..e-reversed
In just a month, Obama has gotten some of the most Liberal policies passed in the last few decades. Truly astounding.
And probably a bunch more went to right-wing militarists and reactionary religious groups.
Overall, though, how did we do, given the time and place?
How creepy is that. Who gets to decide what a failed state is? Why is it any nation’s interest what people in another regions do inside their borders? Of course if they create problems out side their borders it IS a concern. But that’s exactly what uncle sam is constantly doing, Meddling in other’s affairs.
The Bushies made the rationalization that Geneva wasn’t applicable because the combatants were not fighting on behalf of a nation with which we were at war. It was complete BS.
Yep, we might disagree on the order of things but he is going to get a lot more done than the last 2 admins.
What brought about 9/11/2001 attacks on American soil had much to do with Americans having meddled in,interfered with and subverted too much too often in West Asia. Much of this could be traced back to Americans having not addressed American foreign energy wanton appetites for petro from the Persian Gulf region.Since the mid 1970’s.
It also would be reasonable to connect some dots and conclude American support for Israel’s conduct of wild eyed land grabs. A long known history of Israeli illegal and criminal occupation practices. IDF,IAF and Israeli attacks that are riddled with war crimes brought us 9/11/2001. Americans not denouncing what Israel has now done in Gaza to Gazans will come back to haunt all Americans.
Why has Israel’s brutal,war crimes riddled attack on Gaza not been fully condemned by USA?
Somehow were Americans to pull back and concentrate more on doing better in many areas and ways just in North America rather than meddling in West Asia,South Asia or Central Asia that would be a massive improvement.
Who is going to attack Americans in North America if we cut our military by 50% and move the resulting funding into American civilian side projects from universal American healthcare to just doing American civilization better in our cities and rural areas in many large and small ways.
Cut American militarism. The American Debacle in Iraq fully shows why going in was crazy to begin with and is no better five years later. Going into Afghanistan is the worst of ideas. Yet American militarism is taking us into this Afghanistan quaqmire willy nilly.
Cut American militarism. The squandering it brings about is crushing us.
Tell the truth about why 9/11 took place. Be honest and tell the truth.
No truthtell? Nothing else will change or become changeable.
Thanks for that link! I’ve bookmarked, because if I try to address all of that now I’ll be totally useless at work tomorrow, which starts at 7:30. Thanks again!
For one thing, Muslims seem to take a longer view of history and in their perception, the Crusades remain a work in progress.
Pakistan needs about $5 billion to stay in business and at least that much in developmental money.
They damn sure need a school system.
They also said that the Geneva Conventions were obsolete …
Agreed. Too much suspicion and inability to live and let live both ways.
I’ve not read a book about the Marshall Plan yet to have an opinion. That stat came from the Legacy of Ashes about the CIA. Which details how we installed a puppet govt in Tokyo using ex-fascists, and we used a lot of them in Germany too.
Short version of U.S. foreign policy: our friends become out enemies and our enemies become our friends. As soon as WWII was over, and communism became the big bad, the U.S. became BFF with the fascists. It sounds like it had little to do with nation building but everything to do with Stalin and Mao. I.E. it was all about us.
They were a lot more adept at rationalization than they were at governance.
Actually, as I recall it, the word used was “quaint,” which is even more damning than obsolete, as far as I’m concerned.
Bingo.
And once we are OUT of Afghanistan (we’re not there for the Taliban, bin Laden or birthing places of jihadists) if there’s REALLY a problem, its neighbors will spend the time, staff and money to resolve it. They don’t need USA there, and besides, we’ll not RESOLVE anything.
We are there to create instability as much as we can until we can determine who gets the contracts AND the profits for natural resources, their distribution routes and to generate cash flow for the MIC, DOD and the 1%.
Bin Laden orchestrated previous terror upon the USA because we had troops on sacred soils. I don’t think we have that much to fear from terrorist attacks from abroad . . . . our OWN whacko’s, that’s a different story, but it’s a homegrown story that don’t require war abroad on ‘Terror’ . . . a generic word to keep the syndicate running so the Radar’s and Milo’s of the bankers can keep their war machine running and purring smoothly.
Out now, definitely. And WATCH as the region’s neighbors begin to sweat and work FAST to deal with it themselves.
If we want a piece of the natural resource action, we can bid on it like anyone else will.
That’s right, Abu said that.
Especially when Bush purposefully used the word Crusade in one of his speeches. He declared way on Islam when he did that. It was no accident.
It filled a lot of nonUS bellies and warmed a lot of nonUS backs.
Try the Judt book.
How’s Legacy of Ashes? I’ve got it sitting here but haven’t gotten to it.
I’m cursed with a really long memory…
We need a school system first.
We don’t need to be concerned with Pakistan. It is not a threat or a concern of Americans.
Why do you believe this to be so?
if we cut it 80 percent it would still be equal to Russia and China combined… our next largest military spending competitors.
Legacy of Ashes is great. Recommend it.
Yes. To all you said. The MINUTE we let up on the heat, it’s a sign to rachet up all the things that will doom us. This nation don’t have long to get its house in order, and foreign military interventionism is the capitalist policy dragging us down, hard and fast as it all collapses.
What are the threats to the me here in NYC from Asia or Africa? Lay out the case.
Classic “white man’s burden question”
“The wogs can’t run their own country”
Wrong question.
What happens if we don’t leave their ciountry?
I must disagree with that. Pakistan is drowning. BAD people are fighting against it. They have many BIG BOMBS and the missiles to send them st least 2,000 miles.
It is a very good idea to help them.
Thanks. Will read it.
New post Toby – “When Wall Street is Starving Main Street”
I looked at the Judt book. It tackles a larger subject than I’m looking for at the moment. I want something on the Marshall Plan.
I trust the military least to help anyone but their buds in industry.
Good night.
Too many people make money from war. See the Terry Jones -Monty Python – grit interview from earlier this week. And if there aren’t enough wars, they will generate new market demand. Think about it – how many of these countries are truly a threat to us? Versus just scaring the wallets out of our pants once again.
Have not read the posts…just checking in with the cry to let it not be so. This is the time for adults, maturity, morality, and character. Not posturing. Here our prayers.
Toss in the world bankers in both WW1 and WW2 who funded the arming of other countries that LED us into both wars, and the world bankers efforts in the Cold War, and our foreign interventions in Central America, and now Iraq and Afghanistan, and you’ve got the whole picture.
Money funneled upwards, power and control with it. Into the hands of the few. The rest of the planet are chess pieces to be moved at any given time. And most of the chess pieces are pawns.
Have you lived in NYC long enough to remember the that we in NYC have been repeatedly fighting outbreaks of infectious diseases?
I worked in a hospital in NYC that treated many immigrants carrying hepititis, TB, and other contagious diseases. That hospital also had the highest number of non-paying patients in the US.
It convinced me that it’s better and cheaper to spend money for education and sanitation in other parts of the world.
I continue to have an issue with posts that drag me away from the main page…
The main page is wherever you are. *s*
Be afraid. Be very afraid. They’re coming for you next.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KA7×4gddKI
II. More than 1000 US Bases and/or Military Installations
The main sources of information on these military installations (e.g. C. Johnson, the NATO Watch Committee, the International Network for the Abolition of Foreign Military Bases) reveal that the US operates and/or controls between 700 and 800 military bases Worldwide.
In this regard, Hugh d’Andrade and Bob Wing’s 2002 Map 1 entitled “U.S. Military Troops and Bases around the World, The Cost of ‘Permanent War’”, confirms the presence of US military personnel in 156 countries.
The US Military has bases in 63 countries. Brand new military bases have been built since September 11, 2001 in seven countries.
In total, there are 255,065 US military personnel deployed Worldwide.
These facilities include a total of 845,441 different buildings and equipments. The underlying land surface is of the order of 30 million acres. According to Gelman, who examined 2005 official Pentagon data, the US is thought to own a total of 737 bases in foreign lands. Adding to the bases inside U.S. territory, the total land area occupied by US military bases domestically within the US and internationally is of the order of 2,202,735 hectares, which makes the Pentagon one of the largest landowners worldwide (Gelman, J., 2007).
Kindleberger suit you?
Marshall Plan Days.
huh. this happened earlier. Looks like an “x” from a YouTube link gets downsized (happening everywhere!), and that causes a problem when trying to go back to YouTube. Suppose one would have to manually replace the tiny “x” with a regular one, if a viewers was so inclined to see some zany Asian TV show.
$13 billion in loans and technical assistance.
[edit] Before the Marshall Plan
Burned-out buildings after the bombing of HamburgMuch of Europe was devastated with millions killed and wounded. Fighting had occurred throughout much of the continent, encompassing an area far larger than that in World War I. Sustained aerial bombardment meant that most major cities had been badly damaged, with industrial production especially hard-hit. Many of the continent’s greatest cities, including Warsaw and Berlin, lay in ruins. Others, such as London and Rotterdam, had been severely damaged. The region’s economic structure was ruined, and millions had been made homeless. Although the Dutch famine of 1944 had abated with an influx of aid, the general devastation of agriculture had led to conditions of starvation in several parts of the continent, which was to be exacerbated by the particularly harsh winter of 1946–1947 in northwestern Europe. Especially damaged was transportation infrastructure, as railways, bridges, and roads had all been heavily targeted by air strikes, while much merchant shipping had been sunk. Although most small towns and villages in Western Europe had not suffered as much damage, the destruction of transportation left them economically isolated. None of these problems could be easily remedied, as most nations engaged in the war had exhausted their treasuries in its execution.
wikipedia
I clearly recall lefty demonstrators behind the Union with signs saying, “Smash Muslim Resistance in Afghanistan” and “Hail the Red Army”. I can tell you their names.
Some context from a 1990 statement of the International Bolshevik Tendency:
‘For well over a year, we have been involved in a continuing polemic with the Spartacists over the political adaptation to the Stalinist bureaucracy implicit in their slogan ‘‘Hail Red Army in Afghanistan!’’ We counterposed the slogan, ‘‘Military Victory to the Soviet Army!’’
[snip]
‘Afghanistan is not Poland. The social and economic integration of Afghanistan into the Soviet Union in the 1980s would have represented greater social progress for the Afghan masses than the incorporation of Poland into the USSR in 1939 would have meant for the Polish workers.
‘But the reason that the Fourth International refused to ‘‘hail’’ the Red Army, while militarily supporting it against Hitler’s armies, was, as Trotsky made clear, because of the political character of the Stalinist bureaucracy which controlled the army. Fifty years later, Gorbachev’s pullout from Afghanistan (a betrayal of Afghan women, leftists and others who placed their trust in the USSR) once again demonstrates the correctness of Trotsky’s refusal to hail the ‘‘military politics’’ of the Stalinist ruling caste.’
” WASHINGTON – Pakistan’s foreign minister said Wednesday that his country has asked the United States to provide unmanned aircraft that would allow Pakistan to strike extremists hiding in rugged terrain along the Afghan border.
Shah Mahmood Qureshi said in an interview with Associated Press reporters and editors that Pakistan, and not the United States, should have control of the missile strikes that have killed high-level extremists but also civilians.
Pakistan, he said, needs more helicopters and night-vision technology to better fight militants. “
http://www.opednews.com/populu…..nkid=83801
Pakistan needs to open schools to educate their children more than it needs goggles.
Let them use their military to guard schools in the Swat Valley so that their daughters don’t have to forego their education for fear of being attacked by fools with guns.
It’s about time Americans stopped thinking that helping the Russians and us win the war against the Nazis gives them a free pass to bomb dark people in pursuit of a profit.
macaquerman, all you gave us was money, and your chief aim was to rebuild our economies so we could build the goods your booming economy was producing. It also didn’t escape you that if we remained poor and desperate we’d likely turn to communism, and wouldn’t want your goods in large enough numbers. Don’t pretend otherwise. And let’s not quibble over the terminology when we are discussing murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians.
build = buy, sorry.
I was unaware taht I was advocating or condoning bombing dark people for profit.
I’m pretty sure that we supplied a great deal of food and fuel for starving and freezing people. The money wouldn’t act as quickly.
Of course, keeping all those people alive and then helping them rebuild their countries was good for the US a decade or so later. Therefore it was really rotten and selfish that we did it and you have no reason at all to thank us.
As far as the murdering civilians goes, I wouldn’t quibble about it being horrible. I try to mention the firebombing of Tokyo every time someone brings up Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
” “The future of democracy will be in serious question,” said Hasan Askari Rizvi, a political analyst in Lahore. “The [Islamabad] government will find it difficult to cope with governance because political survival will be the main consideration for them.”
The supreme court ruled that Sharif, a former prime minister, could not stand for parliament as a result of an old criminal conviction. It also disqualified his brother, Shahbaz, who was head of the provincial government in Punjab, Pakistan’s richest and most populous province, forcing him to immediately quit the job. “
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..e-pakistan
He might be forced to end the war simply because of the supply problem. How’s this for unintended consequences?
***********
” Islamabad’s capitulation to the Taleban over the Swat Valley has raised fears that the Pakistan route, which accounts for 75 per cent of supplies, could soon be closed.
“The Taleban know if they make a pincer movement they can choke off that access completely,” Mr Neill said. “The options for the US are closing rapidly.”
That is why, for the first time, people are thinking the unthinkable: Iran. Last week a US Nato commander said that individual member countries could seek supply routes through Iran. ”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..805172.ece
” Under pressure from his Western allies and facing a constitutional crisis at home, President Karzai of Afghanistan is expected to call a snap election for April 21 in an effort to wrongfoot his opponents.
The President’s term of office ends on May 21 and there have been increasing demands for him to stand down on that date and pass control to a caretaker government until the vote. Government officials say that the constitution is ambiguous and that Mr Karzai can remain in office. “
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..805118.ece