According to Spencer’s article, Heather Hurlburt of NSN described the goals of the statement as an attempt to come up with a progressive consensus. After two weeks of consultations, the statement was released – apparently to the press and then to those of us in the "advocacy community."
Hurlburt said that she wanted to work out a sense from the “expert community” of what was achievable and realistic for Afghanistan before taking the document to “progressive advocacy” organizations like Get Afghanistan Right to secure buy in. She conceded that there would be disagreements that probably can’t be fully resolved.
This timing certainly raises a whole bunch of questions about the NSN’s interest in engaging in a genuine discussion. It also makes me wonder why those of us who oppose escalation are considered “advocates” and “activists” yet those who advocate sending more troops – as NSN itself does – are instead “experts.”
As far as I can tell – and I would be very happy to hear otherwise from NSN — no Afghans were invited to participate in this process. I guess they are not “experts” either.
Along with the bumpiness of NSN’s process, the statement itself is quite far from what I would consider a “progressive” approach. Both Alex Thurston in his “Response to NSN on Afghanistan” at the Seminal and in Meteor Blade’s recent post at DailyKos raise a number of issues and are very worth reading.
As I read the NSN statement, one section in particular was very disturbing. Under “Principles: The ‘How’ and ‘For What?’” they recommend that the Obama administration:
Adopt a counter-insurgency strategy that reinforces, rather than works against, the principles above. Military decisions should be made with an eye to meeting Afghan security concerns; developing an Afghan security force capable of controlling territory and offering protection; and, as many Afghans and some military observers have advocated, phasing out tactics that have increased civilian casualties with questionable payoffs. (emph. added)
Phase out? Questionable payoffs?
In their introduction, the NSN says their goal is a statement that forms:
a baseline of what must be achieved for our national interests and our moral obligations – to our military, our citizens and the people of Afghanistan. (emph. added)
Yet instead of raising the need for US compliance with the Geneva Conventions requirement that civilians be protected – and in fact, despite the fact that even our commanders in Afghanistan have consistently identified – and promised to change those “tactics” because they lead to civilian casualties – the progressive “experts” simply recommend “phasing [them] out.”
This after US ground forces killed 53 civilians in January alone.
And this weekend we learn that we’ve killed another 13 Afghan civilians – including 6 women and 3 children in a “precision air strike.”
Of course, this is not the first such episode:
The United Nations says civilian deaths rose nearly 40 percent last year to 2,118, the most in any year since the 2001 invasion that drove the Taliban from power … 828 deaths were attributed to American, NATO and Afghan forces, mostly from airstrikes and village raids. Afghan officials fear the numbers will rise as more American troops deploy to the country.
Once again, our military leaders are now telling us they take this very seriously:
A U.S. military statement said the decision to dispatch a general to the western province of Herat to investigate shows how seriously the U.S. takes civilian casualties.
This investigation was launched only after Afghan officials raised a fuss – until then, the US forces had instead said that this air strike killed 15 militants. These stories are getting so frequent that when I read a headline from Afghanistan about “X number of militants killed” I always check the next day to see if there’s a new report that our forces once again had to revise their claim, send some officers to a village to apologize and deliver a condolence payment – and have a General in Kabul announce a new approach which this time will – really – decrease the number of civilian casualties.
It was after all just last week that U.S. General David McKiernan, the commander of both U.S. and NATO troops serving in Afghanistan, issued a joint statement with the Afghan Defense Minister announcing new Rules of Engagement under which operations would be coordinated with Afghan officials in an effort to avoid civilian casualties – yet the New York Times reports about this latest incident:
… Naqib Arween, an aide to the Herat provincial governor, said there was no coordination with Afghan security officials in the province about the operation on Tuesday. He said the bombardment struck nomads in tents in a mountainous region of the province, which borders Iran.
And this is not the only such report this weekend. At Quqnoos, an Afghan news site, we learn that residents of Logar “blocked the Kabul Logar Highway for six hours today” (see video above) and
protested against what they called irresponsible operations of international troops in the area.
According to protestors, the international troops, during search operation in Da now village, killed an innocent resident and took five others away with them.
The protestors were carrying death to America and foreign troop’s slogans, and the dead body of the man who was shot dead by troops last night…
This protest ended after a negotiation, and the release of arrested men by international troops this afternoon.
And once again General McKiernan might like to know:
… the Logar governor said the operation was launched without coordination with local authorities.
Also this weekend, an Afghan civilian was shot – but not killed – by allied forces in a convoy on Route 1 in Helmand Provice but the ISAF (US led NATO forces) assures us that:
ISAF deeply regrets any incident where civilians are injured. ISAF service members are trained to take every precaution they can to avoid incidents like this. Reparation will be made for damage caused.
ISAF is here to assist the government of Afghanistan in providing a better way of life for the Afghan people.
I almost wonder if the authors of the NSN statement also write those ISAF statements – or is this just standard “expert” language, language which ignores both our Geneva obligations and the suffering of the Afghan people.
———————
Three Must Reads for the week:
- Dubhaltach’s Oxdown diary When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains has some very useful resources as well as comments from his recent time serving there
- Douglas Saunders’s "Iran: the enemy that almost isn’t" in the Globe and Mail and,
- Gareth Porter’s Obama Nixed Full Surge After Quizzing Brass at IPS.
Video: Quqnoos video of the demonstration at Logar against the killing of one civilian and arrest of 5 others. There is no English language version available.



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Because they are Very Serious People; (you can tell VSP because they are at all the finest social functions and eat cocktail weenies with the best of the best – unlike those of us who actually know a little history).
This is more like it!!! Plenty that a grumpy bastard can argue with.
So it seems Dakine!
History does teach us to avoid weenies.
How exactly does a ‘discussion’ happen when someone presents a ‘position paper’ that the rest of us DFH’s are not allowed to say anything about – and that there are differences that ‘probably cannot be resolved’?
WTF? And the fact that no Afghanis were included in our ‘plan’ for their country?
Guaranteed. To. Fail.
Don’t miss Alex and Meteor’s pieces on the NSN statement … both very good and with more info.
I found the “process” troubling but the statement more so … no Afghans indeed!
The folks in the youtube – protesting the killing of a civilian in their community and the arrest of 5 others – must have a voice in the future of their country.
I am getting really tired of all these groups with the nice-sounding names that are very misleading. I would like to make a requirement that whenever one of these outfits has a spokesperson make a statement they also have to say just exactly what their mission statement is and who are the founding members.
I am slowly getting up to speed on all the right-wing think-tanks but these new ones keep sprouting up and like in this case – it’s kinda hard to really tell what their true agenda is. It sounds like a right-wing think tank trying to masquerade as something else.
Or am I all wet on this?
The MSM will probably devote numerous hours to presenting the “progressive views” on Afghanistan next week.
That voice MUST include the freedom to choose whatever type/style of governance they want – and just because we don’t like it cannot be the grounds for dismissing it out of hand. Otherwise – why bother. We are really big on ’spreading democracy’ until it meets up with our narrow-minded ideas of just what that means (do it my way or the highway).
NSN is the group headed by Rand Beers – http://www.nsnetwork.org/about
Staff: http://www.nsnetwork.org/about/staff
They are supposed to represent a progressive take on security matters.
I find many of their positions problematic.
Guess I need to say here what I always say on Afghanistan threads (and said on Iraq threads through 2005).
The United States will, eventually, leave Afghanistan. We’ll get sick of spending money there and getting our troops killed there. The troops understand they are stuck in something futile. Given any kind of a chance, they’ll kill Afghans rather than risk themselves. Can’t say that I blame them: dying without a discernible purpose is not something most of us are willing to do.
Not surprisingly, Afghans don’t want us wandering around their country killing them for no reason except for our own survival. Sooner or later, the US will leave.
The problem is: there is no sane U.S. mission. That’s because there really was never a cause for a “war.” Sure, in the fall of 2001, some police work to capture the perps of 9/11 was in order — but our arrogant rulers decided to take advantage of our lust for revenge to start remaking countries. On the cheap at that.
Obama’s job, if he is as smart as he seems to be, is to get the U.S. out of Afghanistan before it becomes his war and people in the U.S. discover that it is nothing but a waste of Afghan and U.S. lives. If he doesn’t, he’s screwed. This is a failed war that can’t be fixed because it never had a plausible purpose. Presidents who end failed wars are thought well of; presidents who are mired in them are losers.
Wasn’t Beers John Kerry’s “National Security Adviser” after having been part of BushCo and getting ‘disenchanted’?
Their idea of “progressive National Security” seems to be based on the premise that the Neo-cons were correct and only wrong in the implementation, going slightly overboard in things. /s
Well, we have just come through 8 years of Orwellian double-speak. I learned that anything that comes out of a right-winger’s mouth – the exact opposite is probably true.
Progressive viewpoints are known by their rationality. The fact that you (or anyone else in the actual progressive community) has problems with their viewpoints/positions speaks volumes about the fact that they are NOT progressives. These neo-cons can try to hide and divert attention, but their true colors always shine through.
That bit about ‘phasing out’ stuff that is a war crime. Yawn. Oh yeah, well, we’ve got to say something. Nevermind that it won’t happen. Yawn.
/s
Fixed it for you.
Fuckers …..
Please don’t tell me this is more of the same bullshit we’ve gone through for the last 8 years.
Yeah – did you see the piece on Rachel’s the other night with Brzinski? He said we actually ‘won the war’ in Afghanistan in 2 days. With 300 troops. That’s what it took to topple the Taliban.
So – what are we still doing there 7 years later?
ah … welcome to American progressive politics mfi!
I gather you recommend a recent book on the topic?
Ditto – Fixed it for you.
The introduction of drones by American military was premised on reduction of risk to American military of being killed in action or captured and becoming a prisoner. The calculus for using drones then also promotes idea that Americans are very competent and very capable of divining who the bad guys are,where the bad guys are and then killing the bad guys with “precision”.
One can imagine how this would have all worked during the American War in Vietnam.
Israel is also partaking of this “precision” targeting and killing approach and as seen or becoming more knowable as the weeks pass what it produced in Gaza is anything but precise unless killing innocent civilians and children in particular is cause to celebrate how precise the death dealing is.
Attack from the air is rooted in WW1 and had fully leafed out by WW2 in ways that both sides of that conflict fully practiced with frequent bypass of any restraint or prohibition any treaty may have held.
The Americans had by 1944 perfected carpet bombing and the means to do it well and in depth. Japanese cities were given no mercy from above by the Americans. Incendiary bombing leading to atomic bombing. Killing civilians from high above without any measure of mercy an American perfected tactic.
The use of drones as now seen taking place in Afghanistan and Pakistan is opening another chapter of American warmaking and deathdealing that has not been carefully scaled or reviewed. In some way the use of drones seems quite cowardly and fully void of any sense of honor. Perhaps that quality is no different in essence than the use of B-52’s in Vietnam was.
It is doubtful the Americans can or will win anything that can ever be called a “victory” by killing innocent civilian adults and children in Iraq,Afghanistan or Pakistan.
Americans held the German Nazis and Imperial Japanese in high contempt for reckless/ruthless killing practices. We are not excused for doing the same with these concepts of being precise or achieving precision death dealing with the use of drones. The death dealing it brings about is surely very imprecise and open for full contempt.
sort of OT: News item on AOL – Pakistan announced that it will distribute 30,000 arms to local ‘insurgents’ in an attempt to help fight the ‘militants’.
This is supposed to help how? I have never been able to figure out how/why giving weapons to more and more people is supposed to help in a situation where too many people are already being killed and mained. Of course, the Pakistanis have learned at the feet of the master of this kind of policy (the US).
thank you.
could not agree more.
Yes I do it’s this one:
The Liberal Defence of Murder (Hardcover) by Richard Seymour (Author)
You can read an excerpt of it on Alternet:
The Imperialist Propaganda of Hitchens and Friends
I find it remarkable that a conservative Catholic Irish chap such as myself should be recommending a book by a hard left British socialist. But nevertheless I do recommend it thoroughly.
Those of you who know me and remember my comments here will remember that I am firmly of the opinion that so called “left” or “liberal” imperialists are just as present, and just as viciously culpable as the neo-con kind.
Seymour makes this point and shows that “liberal” imperialism has a long and very dishonourable history.
I think it important that these swine be dragged kicking and screaming into the light so that we can get a good look at them.
“The Liberal Defense of Murder” does that.
Agreement from here too!
Your point is well taken.
It also goes to show that even though there seems to be some ‘immunity’ from the business of dropping bombs on innocents and never a thought about it – it actually does carry some stigma.
for example. John McCain actually flew a small bomber during his time in Vietnam. Being a bomber pilot is not seen as glamorous – but being a fighter pilot is – hence his embellishment of his actual role in that conflict.
I suggest that the fighter pilot meme is more glamorous/acceptable is due to the nature of a one-on-one conflict between two evenly matched opponents and the feeling that if you ‘win’ – at least the other guy had a fair chance.
Bombing, not so much.
Much was made about the crew of the Enola Gay – the pilot loudly and often insisting until the day he died that they had ‘done the right thing’. But how much of that was because the alternative was just too horrible to contemplate. If he had been able to face the fact of the millions of deaths of innocent people – well, it goes without saying that he couldn’t.
All of this is not to excuse bombing. Just that these people are doing the job they were assigned to do – but it is not without personal consequences for them.
But drones – well now, none of that messy retrospection and stuff now!
It’s on my nightstand … can’t wait to read it myself!
Pakistanis were well-schooled in killing long before the US reached their land.
I think that the application of these ‘liberal’ or ‘neo-con’ tags has reached the end of its usefulness. I heard or read something recently that used the ‘neo-liberal’ tag – and from what I could gather – this sounded worse than the neo-cons. I’m not sure that even right or left is appropriate either.
It’s too bad – we all want to tag everyone/everything with these tags – but the policies and ideology changes over time and the tags are actually irrelevant – or speak to things that are no longer representative of what the original was.
So, while you may view yourself as a ‘conservative’ you are absolutely correct in that some ‘liberal/left’ people are just as bad as the neo-cons we love to demonize now.
Ugh!
That’s why this NSN thing is so problematic. They are presenting themselves as ‘progressive’. But their presentation shows another side that definitely is not.
Yes they were. But we have been giving them $12 billion in military aid – to buy more guns.
And now they are giving the guns to people to shoot other people – and the other people probably got their guns from – wait – US, or the Pakistani government at our behest once upon a time.
My problem is that the US is the biggest weapons dealer on the planet – and we have no compunction about selling weapons to both sides in a conflict. Instead of selling arms – we should be mediating and trying to solve the problem without violence.
Oh wait – that wouldn’t make any money for the MIC. Sorry.
Ask Siun if you don’t believe me – she’ll tell you entirely truthfully that I’m a conservative Irish Catholic :-).
I take your point without however agreeing. Labelling is often used as a substitute for analysis. The meaning of labels such as “liberal” can also be very culturally dependant, what an American means by “liberal” is, I’m prepared to bet, very different from the meaning on this side of the Atlantic.
All of that being said, the point that Seymour makes in his book is however well worth making.
There’s a lot of imperialists who would describe themselves as “left” or “progressive” and they have a long and very dishonourable intellectual and political lineage.
Good point loky …
I find that the allegiance to american exceptionalism is the key for me – I don’t care where on the spectrum folks place themselves, but as soon as they embrace that, we have a problem.
I am completely in agreement that the US is the biggest arms dealer on the planet, although others are catching up. But the people you’re talking about in Pakistan are not some peaceloving folk that the US has corrupted.
These are people that have carried weapons as a sign of manhood for many centuries before the US came into existence.
I have every reason to agree that we should prefer a non-violent solution and hope that we transition our presence in the area into an affirmative one.
I just suggest that any attempt to lay all the responsibility for Pakistan’s problems at the feet of the Us is wrong and ignores a great deal of history.
Book Salon a couple of flights upstairs with Dispatches From The War Room with author Stan Greenberg
It is always entertaining when an organization I never heard of before today says that it represents progressives like me.
If the NSN wants to say Hey we’re a progressive group and we want to start a discussion and here are our views, that’s progressive. When they say, we’re a progressive group and here are your views, that’s not.
Here is the list of their Advisory Board:
http://www.nsnetwork.org/about/board
From the names I recognize, I would say this is an older Establishment grouping. They may have been liberal sometime in their past but mostly I would qualify them as center, possibly center-right. The one word that would not come immediately to mind is progressive.
From the link to the Washington Independent this jumps out at me:
“It supports “vigorous diplomacy” with all of Afghanistan’s allies “from India and Iran to Russia and the other Central Asian states”; tying Pakistan policy to Afghanistan policy; and to supplement military force by cracking down on both government corruption and the “stranglehold of the opium trade” which helps fund the insurgency.”
WTF? Complete fantasy! For the past 20 years Coalition forces and Russia have destroyed Afghanistan; they need to get the hell out, leave their checkbooks behind.
I wasn’t trying to blame all the Pakistani problems on the US. They have plenty of their own to deal with and have always had since their nation was ‘founded’ (carved out by colonialists).
What I do have a problem with is the US interfering in whatever ANY country is doing by providing either or both sides of any dispute with weapons.
We may not like what is going on, we may have an idea of what we’d prefer to see happening – but furnishing weapons does nothing for promoting that viewpoint, or for settling the disputes, or for the people of that country, or for that matter, for the people of this one (US)!
Just one thing to bear in mind. The government of Pakistan has a bunch of VERY BIG weapons. Ones that they built themselves.
There are some people in Pakistan who are shooting at the soldiers of the Pakistani government and who might be trying to overthrow that government.
While I think that the Pakistani government has not been very good for the people of Pakistan, I worry that the people trying to overthrow are people who I might not want to have control of these weapons.
Yep. All the more reason for us to be doing things like diplomacy and development aid as ways to encourage the Pakistani government to be better to its people and not give them the excuses they need to want to overthrow their government.
Providing arms to one of the groups doing the shooting (not the military in this case) doesn’t help prevent the overthrow, nor does it do anything at all to ensure the non-use of those very big weapons. And who knows, we may yet find out that we are also providing arms to the militants. That has happened more than once in the history of our dealings with countries like this.
Development aid is way, way less expensive and a zillion times better for them, us, and the planet.
Let’s hope that the road we have been on allows a quick detour.
“Yet instead of raising the need for US compliance with the Geneva Conventions requirement that civilians be protected”
I can’t claim to be an international lawyer. But the above account of the Geneva requirements is misleading at best.
The conventions bar combatants from targeting or deliberately endangering civilians. But they do not require that combatants forego attacks on otherwise legitimate military objectives whenever an attack might kill civilians. If they did, the use of human shields would be far more common than it is.
Targeting civilians because they are civilians is forbidden by the laws of war–that’s clear enough. But some people seem to have trouble understanding that endangering civilians–placing them in harm’s way for your own military advantage or through failure to do due diligence (such as evacuating them from a battlefield)–is also forbidden. Endangering includes things like using human shields so that an enemy won’t shoot at you, using civilian clothing as a disguise for your troops, or taking up positions in civilian homes without evacuating the residents/owners to a safe area first.
This is why the missile strikes against houses in Pakistan are probably not violations of the Geneva Conventions or other laws of war. When combatants are making use of a building or vehicle, it is a legitimate military target. If riflemen are firing from civilian house or using it as a barracks, it is generally NOT a crime to destroy the house, even though civilians are likely to die.
If crimes are committed in this case, the perpetrators are not the CIA/Air Force drone operators, but the gunmen in th houses. The gunmen can use the houses as barracks as long as they move the civilians to a place of safety first. But if they make military use of the house while civilians are present, they–not the attackers–are responsible for the civilian deaths. The gunmen endangered the civilians. They knew the civilians were there and deliberately placed noncombatants in the line of fire.
From a practical humanitarian point of view, the above actually makes sense. The laws of war sanction those that take hostages AND deny them any advantage if they do. This is supposed to deter the use of hostages–and probably does. If enemies could mount successful attacks by strapping babies to their chests in the certainty that they could not then be shot at themselves, baby body armor would be the norm.
Siun, can you direct me to where it is that you got the idea that NSN describes itself as comprising the progressive national security community?
Macaquerman – They seem to have taken down their “About” page and Staff listing which were quite explicit on their mission. I’m not sure if its a glitch or a change. Their War Room page leads with the statement “Building a Strong Progressive National Security … and Countering Conservative Spin”
and Spencer’s article – linked above – discusses their plans related to Afghanistan.
Thanks.
Re Spencer-did you happen to see that he was on the Lieberman-Lieberman thing about an hour after you. He was a bi less polite then you in expressing his thoughts on these guys.
Thanks again.
Robspierre – your reading of the Geneva requirements is popular apparently with folks in our military but is not what Geneva says.
Military forces are required to cease or withdraw if the civilian casualties are disproportionate – and attacks which kill 13 civilians and at most 3 “insurgents” (there is no evidence that there were *any* “insurgents” in the area in fact) would be stretching proportionality to say the least. Or look at the January reports in which apparently 53 civilians were killed in ground raids with no “insurgents” involved at all.
And in fact, several months ago, US commanders in Afghanistan stated the they were revising their ROE to order withdrawal where they previously had not due to the disproportionate number of civilian casualties – they have not actually lived up to that but even they recognize the problem.
May I suggest another reading of the Fourth Geneva Convention -
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/…..Convention