[ Welcome Deborah Nelson, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and Host Professor Robert Steck - bev]
Deborah Nelson’sThe War Behind Me
“Henry peered over a short hedge, where women and children huddled as Carter and others took aim. Soldiers dragged a naked teenager from a hooch. ‘She was brought out by two guys, and she was thrown into the pile … There were babies in there too … She was just thrown on the pile and they started shooting.’
“A farmer shot on the way home from market, a man on his bicycle, three farmers in a field, teenage brothers fishing peacefully on a lake, (all killed by American soldiers ) – there are hundreds of such reports in the war-crime archive, each one dutifully recorded, sometimes with no more than a passing sentence or two, as if the killing were as routine as the activity it interrupted.”
As Deborah Nelson makes clear in passages like the above, (from her new book The War Behind Me,) chronicling a seemingly endless accumulation of war crimes can become monotonous. The evil can come to seem, in Hannah Arendt’s term, “banal”, and one is reminded of Stalin’s cynical observation that one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
But it is no small part of the genius of Nelson’s book that she never lets the horror hide in the statistics. She never allows the banality to obscure the blood. Instead, Nelson constantly and relentlessly digs beneath the surface statistics to pull into the light of day what lies beneath — the complicated and dense web of victims and executioners, soldiers and civilians, ground-pounders in the bush and starched Generals in the Pentagon, courageous whistle blowers who tell the truth, and bureaucratic cowards who cover it up.
Nelson’s book raises such profoundly troubling questions in such a powerful way that its painful puzzles continue to pop up in readers’ minds long after they have turned the last page. Secondary explosions. Throughout her extraordinary book Nelson trains a cool, clear and carefully calibrated eye on realities that are as heated as napalm, as murky as the Mekong River, and as intense as a firefight. We are deeply in her debt.
Her method is simple and straightforward. She and Vietnam Scholar, Nick Turse, found out that at the time the Army launched its inquiry into the massacre at My Lai, it also launched a second inquiry into other war crimes. That second inquiry was headed up by a team of officers who worked entirely in secret for more than five years. The team assembled nine thousand pages of evidence chronicling a wide and hideous range of events when American soldiers perpetrated murders of civilians, committed atrocities, and in other ways systematically violated the laws of war and of the Army Field Manual.
Nelson and Turse set out to make their way through this staggering accumulation of reports which added up, in the words of one witness, to “a My Lai a month.” Most of the incidents in the nine thousand came to light because of ‘whistleblowers’ who wrote letters describing the crimes to political and military leaders, describing the event and naming the perpetrators. After studying those files Nelson went to whatever lengths necessary to find and interview all the protagonists: whistleblowers, perpetrators, investigators, and, in a trip to Vietnam, surviving victims and the families of murdered victims. As one might surmise, there is no lack of drama in these encounters, perhaps especially those who are politely asked about atrocities they committed decades earlier. Drama reveals character, and I was especially intrigued by one former soldier who, confronted with overwhelming evidence of his commission of war crimes thirty years earlier, responded over and over, with increasing heat to Nelson’s questions: “WHY DON’T YOU GET A REAL JOB!!”
Toward the end of her book Nelson interviews a few upstanding retired generals who worked both while in Vietnam and later to prevent atrocities in Vietnam and, later, to try to learn the lessons that might prevent them from occurring in any future war. One of those generals, John Johns, is convinced that whenever American troops deploy against enemies who are mixed in with the civilian population. Atrocities and war crimes are inevitable.
Throughout, however, Nelson casts herself as a discoverer of facts, asking questions rather offering answers. The questions she poses are so compelling and consequential that today’s on-line discussion should be especially lively.
[As a reminder, please be respectful of our author and host, and take off-topic discussions to the previous thread. -bev]



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Deborah, Welcome to the Lake.
Bob, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks for inviting us.
Good afternoon Deborah and welcome to FDL.
I have not had a chance to read your book but from the intro here, it appears you used the DoD’s own records for the starting point on your fact finding.
How do you respond to those who would trash you for opening these files and (most likely) proclaim you “anti-American” or “Against the troops”?
(I’m sure you have experienced large measures of that)
Thanks, Deborah, Robert and Bev….
this quote really got to me. I intend to read your book soon.
How do we fight desensitization simply as witnesses at the end of media reports… I am stunned by the desensitization for the Gazan war.
Thank you for your work!
“One of those generals, John Johns, is convinced that whenever American troops deploy against enemies who are mixed in with the civilian population. Atrocities and war crimes are inevitable.”
But isn’t a good deal of the problem here that the type of war that we were taught to think of as ‘good war’ (as in WWII — battle field type war) does not exist any longer?
I’m particulary interested to know how your views changed over the course of researching and writing this book — in particular, were you surprised in looking through the files how pervasive and even routine the atrocities were in VN? In general, how did your views change over the course of this project?
Oh God, struggling with the desire to go take a shower or do anything but stay here and follow this. Bookmark the URL, promise myself to come back.
I’ve received some flack, although not as much as I expected. The most recent note chastised me for wasting trees and paper with my book. As a journalist, I believe we need to write the truth about our government whenever it reveals itself, whether a few days or a few decades later. The military has maintained for decades that war crimes were isolated incidents in Vietnam and not a systemic problem. Soldiers came home and tried to tell the public differently, but they were ignored or accused of making things up. I think it’s important to set the record straight, not only for them but for future generations who could benefit from the lessons learned.
And a quick technical note: When you are replying to a specific comment, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right corner of the comment you wish to reply to.
Were there any patterns that emerged as you did your research?
I have a cousin who was in the navy who will forever regard John Kerry as a traitor for being a vet against the Vietnam War.
Sorry, meant to say thank you for doing this. We have got to wake up to the reality of war.
Thank you for your efforts on this. I’m of the Vietnam era and had a large number of friends who served, both from my hometown and college.
Most all of them came back with horror stories. A few bragging but most haunted by them.
The narrative portion of the book is short–just under 200 pages–because I worried that readers would be overwhelmed and then numbed by the violence in the files. I tried to impress the scope of the problem by listing summaries of the cases in the back. I wish I had a good answer to fighting desensitization. The wrong answer is to stop putting the reality of war in front of the public.
How did you fight your own “overwhelm/shutdown” mechanism of self protection and stay with it?
Toby is certainly right that the sort of main force wars of the past, that pitted uniformed army against uniformed army, seem no longer to be the models for future wars. The question then becomes whether we, (the US) can fight a guerilla enemy, where the combatants mix with the population, without the atroocities Nelson chronicles. General Petraeus and his team are placing a huge bet that we can — he oversaw the drafting of a new Army-Marine Corps manual a couple of years that is truly revolutionary, in that it is very alive to the reality that indiscriminate killing recruits more oppposition than it neutralizes. But that means that in situations of great ambiguous danger you DO NOT shoot first to protect your own troops, and that, in turn, means you take more American casulaties at least at the front end. Would the American public support those kinds oif rules of engagement? Very big question …
That’s exactly what Johns argues. He did an analysis in the 1960s for the Army of foreign military involvement in counterinsurgency operations from WWII onward. He concluded that they always lead to atrocities, which leads to loss of moral standing and loss of support of the population — an insurmountable obstacle. Based on history, he recommended the U.S. serve only in an advisory role in Vietnam. His boss’s rejected that finding.
They very well might if they understood what Petraeus is trying to do.
I think there is a growing minority who are horrified by civilian deaths. I remember in the first Iraq war, there was such a love by media for technology.. and casualties were VERY rarely commented on. Also people who look through propaganda spin of why wars are waged. Profit motive, oil… rather than “good guys” America. Gore Vidal wrote the book, “The United States of Amnesia”. I think it is good there is so much history now on the media. American history from founding fathers. I hope the lessons go on through our international gamesmanship… and backing leaders for our benefit not the common good. Imperialism examined. And the military industrial complex! When you only have a hammer.. everything looks like a nail.. as they say.
I met so many veterans who did the right thing. They reported atrocities despite the many obstacles the war and military leaders threw in their way — or they told the truth when investigators knocked on their door. And they did it again, when we cam knocking.
That is a relief to hear. And how can anyone not escape PTSD from participating in war. My Dad was at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7th. His hitch was supposed to be up Dec. 8th….. he has some horror stories and had some severe stress damage. As did everyone.
Thanks so much for doing this.
Ever since I started real (civilian) therapy about sixteen years ago I’ve been willing to talk so (some) people about the things I did and saw in Vietnam in the summer of 1970. Interestingly, after bush and 9/11 it became much more common for people to either insist I was making up the atrocities or that my experience was an aberation and actually, American soldiers don’t “do things like that”.
It’s also important to remember that some of the worst excesses weren’t intentional. I killed a woman and three children because I fired up a hooch that I was SURE we took fire from. That one still tears at me, because there were no weapons or men in the hooch, just those four sad bodies.
Which doesn’t excuse the ones that WERE intentional. I shot a teenage kid’s foot half off and instead of trying to get him treated, turned him over to the ARVNs to interrogate. Pretty sure he didn’t survive it.
Anyway, thanks for once again reminding people that war is ALWAYS horrible, and there is no honor to be found amid the horror.
mikey
Where might incidents of “fragging” fit into this narrative? Straight crime, mutiny, rebellion or justifiable homicide? I don’t imagine it was invented during the war in Vietnam, but that brought it to prominence.
Lilly, I was in the VVAW when I came home and participated in Operation Dewey Canyon III alongside Kerry and the other 1000 or so Nam Vets that came that came to DC that week. When I saw your book listed and clicked through to the Amazon page and read the rant by the clown saying “most alleged “veterans” who testified in the winter soldier hearings were later found out to not be veterans at all, or had never set foot in Vietnam.” I know you know better but I always want to make sure I speak up. One of my buddies that came with me testified at Winter Soldier and was in the 101 St Airborne. Another was a Marine and was at Khe Sahn. I served in both Korea, 67-68 and Vietnam 68-69 in the 1st Signal Bde. Jermome Corsi has written a very good book about the VVAW and the film “Winter Soldier” is worth watching. There were a couple of phonies in the VVAW, the most hurtful was Al Hubbard, but most of us were vets who had seen enough and wanted to wake this country up. Thanks for your book Deborah.
Do you see a connection between a willingness to “put it on the line” and report atrocities and the high percentage of draftees with no long term interest in remaining in the military? Or are the two unrelated?
Opps, sorry, Deborah’s book.
Thanks. I found some veterans were almost relieved when we called. They hadn’t talked about what they’d witnessed. They’d carried the memory around for decades. But we knew their secret, so they felt freer to open up. I’ve heard from others since the book came out.
Thank you for your courage! The “messenger gets killed” is certainly true .. “no good deed goes unpunished”… etc. To tell the truth invites jingoistic “swift-boating” but the people you do reach will cherish and be haunted by the truth and have their consciousnesses raised.. and what a gift that is. And there is a ripple effect of truth.. one person at a time. LIke this salon today will cause ripples among some of us.
Bad policies from the top and poor leadership on the ground emerged as significant factors in war crimes. From the top: The pressure to produce a high enemy body count, the dehumanization of the enemy, the search-and-destroy missions in the last 1960s, free-fire zones that encouraged US forces to kill anything that moved. On the ground: Commanders who carried out those policies despite evidence they were leading to substantial civilian deaths. Commanders who didn’t intervene when individual soldiers took out their frustration on innocent civilians.
I was also a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and I have certainly received a fair amount of enmity from other vets. And speaking out about atrocities there really angers a lot of people, vets and others. .
I understand that anger. But it’s interesting that when I am able to have civil conversations with guys of that view it usually turns out that they don’t especially disagree with my opinions — that is, they don’t think the VN War was a good thing, they don’t deny that we were far too cavalier in regard to taking Vietnamese lives, etc. It’s just that they don’t think any vets should have gone public with our concerns, that in doing so we somehoow contributed to the difficulties that many vets have had in re-adjusting. Overll, they seem to feel that a vet going public with antiwar sentiments will somehow bleach the meaning and substance of their suffering and sacrifice. I disagree profoundly. I think every vet who served honorably deserves the fullest measure of respect regardless of anyone’s opinion about the war itself. There were two interesting moments in the last campaign: at one time, John McCain, (who’s a hero of mine) said that if we don’t push on to something he calls ‘victory’ in Iraq that the troops who have died there will have died in vain. Obama said, simply, no American soldier dies in vain. On this point I think Obama is right.
I want to say one more thing here. The emphasis on this kind of work, and rightfully so, is usually on ground action and the subsequent atrocities. It’s important to remember that the shit that rained down from the sky was even less discriminate about who it killed. Read Jonathon Schell’s “The Real War” for a glimpse of that aspect.
Did soldiers talk about “demonization of the enemy” as preparation for war? To desensitize themselves to function?
In his review of the book, Chicago Reader columnist Michael Miner wrote: “When will this reporting matter? When will what it tells us become part of what we all know about war?” I guess that’s my hope — that this becomes part of what we all know about war.
Hey Brother. It’s funny, in going to some of the Vets Day I really began to believe that we were “putting the division behind us”. At the 10th Rocky Bleier talked about how we were “grunts, cooks, chopper pilots . . .against it a for it, but we were all brothers”. That shit went out the window with the Swift Boat crap. My only problem with it was that there is no way Kerry and his handlers could not have known it was coming and that weak-ass “reporting for duty” was pitiful.
Talk about it? Nah, it was just part of the lexicon.
Thank you, Robert. Appreciate that sensibility so much. And witnessed with my Dad and others that special bonding of vets which makes it all the more emotionally conflicting and/or challenging to speak out. Whenever a war buddy called on the phone, the family could tell by the affection in my Dad’s voice … very intense. But the capacity of some vets to challenge authority and military group think. And now with so much cronyism on all levels and anti-whistleblower stances.
I’ve heard similar stories in the locker room and over a beer, often from special forces-trained guys finding it hard to fit back into society. One slept in a backyard tree for a few months because he didn’t feel safe inside. Another, who’d worked for an alphabet soup agency after special ops in ‘Nam, simply wanted his name deleted from Uncle Sam’s computer. I hope he got his wish, ’cause he didn’t have much else.
Thanks for your first-hand insights. The declassified war-crime archive for the most part contains allegations of deliberate harm, not accidental killings or cases of mistaken identity.
My army major efriend informed me, about a couple of months into the insurgency in Iraq, that the war colleges specifically eliminated all their courses and readings about counterinsurgencies after VN because they never wanted to fight a war like that again. That was a mere 5 years ago, and it took them 4 years to rewrite the manual (whereas I read a handful of 200 page definitive books on the subject in a couple of months).
The short version is that counterinsurgency is almost always a losing war, both in the war itself and, more largely in the damage to the broader reputation of the country and the world. It was the Soviet’s loss in Afghanistan, for example, that encouraged OBL to attack the U.S., as just one recent example of the larger consequences of counterinsurgencies.
Deborah… why and how and when… did you decide to write this book, if I may ask?
Raven, I completely agree with you about Kerry and tHe Swift Boat attacks, which he let lie out there for a month or so before he hit back. I think it was because Bob Shrum, his campaighn manager, simply thought the charges against Kerry, a decorated and wounded veteran, by a President who used his influence to stay out of the war, and a Vice President who was a serial supplicant for student deferments, ( he had “other priorities”, the poor dear) would never get traction. That was a real ‘inside-the-Beltway misperception.
I assume you address rape, Deborah? Could you comment.
mikey, I’m so sorry. Cannot possibly imagine what everyone who was there endured. Theirs, ours, nobody’s.
The old “I won’t dignify that with an answer” no longer flies, does it?
Seems kind of funny, you are aware of this?
The real killer, IMHO, was when the POW’s ran the ad that said “I felt this way because of what Kerry said”. You could argue with the Swift Boaters “fact’s” but not with how the POW’s “felt”.
The war-crime archive doesn’t count civilians killed in the Phoenix Program either, or many others killed and reported as enemy KIA to meet pressure for higher body counts. A private letter in the file to Gen. Westmoreland from an anonymous soldier warned that hundreds of civilians were being shot in the Mekong Delta to meet body count pressures. Instead of investigating his allegations, the Army mounted an effort to identify him and stop him from going public. Kevin Buckley, then of Newsweek, later investigated Speedy Express, a combat operation in the Mekong Delta that the military touted as a major success. He visited hospitals, talked to residents and to military officials and concluded thousands of civilians were killed deliberately. So while the archive represents the largest government compilation of U.S. war-crime reports from Vietnam, it’s by no means a complete accounting. It’s more a window into a much larger problem.
I’ve always wanted to suggest to someone in military authority that some kind of universal sign language be learned by soldiers and be spread through an occupied country so civilians could on a basic level communicate with US soldiers and have some primary tool to promote more trust and clarity and less tragedy from confusion.
He wasn’t there, was he?!
Wow… good point.
Did you get a chance to speak with John Balaban, author of “Remembering Heaven’s Face”?
There were plenty of lessons learned studies on VN itself, but according to my friend (don’t know if he’s right or wrong, just repeating what he told me), the most important lesson learned was not to go into that kind of war again. It was the broader coursework and readings on counterinsurgencies that got removed from the war colleges.
no
gotcha
The Army’s investigations into the Winter Soldier accounts from Detroit are in the archive. (I’ve noted them in the chart in the back of the book.) The Army’s own records don’t support the popular perception that most of those who testified were frauds and liars. Most cases were closed due to “insufficient evidence,” largely because WSI veterans declined to cooperate with CID for philosophical/moral reasons and/or because investigators showed little inclination to pursue them. The top legal advisor to the chief of CID told me the agents were undertrained, overwhelmed and demoralized at the time.
I remember when I was in Vietnam, and saw how routinely the civilian victims of American firepower were added to the body count, that I thought we were inadvertently giving the VC/NVA ideology far too much credit — we were essentially implying it was an ideology so compelling that it could effect posthumous conversions. Deathbed conversions we’ve all heard of, but this is a huge step further.
He actually sent me some reading lists at one point. I’ve lost them, unfortunately. If I had them, I could go back & see if there were any CI studies.
Reminds me of when the little old lady on the street in DC said, ” I don’t think what you are doing is good for the troops”. The brother replied, “lady, we are the troops”!
Try these
In Pharaoh’s Army: Memories of a Lost War by Tobias Wolff.
any thing by
John B. Balaban (born December 2, 1943)[1]is an American poet and translator, a preeminent authority on Vietnamese literature.[2]
He was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. He went to Vietnam with the International Volunteer Services where he taught at a university until it was bombed in the Tet Offensive. He was wounded in the shoulder by shrapnel and evacuated; after his recovery , he worked to save burned and injured children from the war. He left Vietnam in 1969, but returned in 1971 to work on Ca Dao Viet Nam, a collection of poems in the Ca Dao folk tradition.[3]
Late Thoughts on an Old War
The Legacy of Vietnam
Philip D. Beidler
thanks for opening yourself to share your experiences with us. i’m sorry you were in that situation.
I don’t know if there are civilian death counts, but there are Phoenix documents here that might be of interest to you.
**********
” Created by the CIA in Saigon in 1967, Phoenix was a program aimed at “neutralizing”—through assassination, kidnapping, and systematic torture—the civilian infrastructure that supported the Viet Cong insurgency in South Vietnam. It was a terrifying “final solution” that violated the Geneva Conventions and traditional American ideas of human morality. (For a full introduction to Phoenix, see below.) “
http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/
Yes, thank you for saying that greenwarrior. mikey… how incredibly generous of you to share with us your experience. greenwarrior sensitized me right now to your courage and honesty!
Your friend is right, according to my research and study. The idea that we should not get bogged down in guerilla wars, that we should go in fast and hard with allour technology and get out with a clear exist plan — that was first the Weinberger doctrine and then the Powell doctrine. It’s what we followed in Desert Storm, and we didn’t push on to Baghdad for exactly that reason.
Rumsfeld still tried to follow that same line while going into Baghdad — tactics and strategies didn’t line up. Remember Rummy’s famous quip, “I don’t do quagmires”? Well, given that he was finally ousted, I guess it’s true that he doesn’t “do” quagmires — he just creates them and leaves them for other people to “do.”
Hell, Rusk knew that from being in the CBI.
Improving communication would save many lives. But that wouldn’t stop the deliberate killing. As records reflect and Johns and others describe: When you send U.S. troops into populated areas to fight an elusive enemy, frustration builds and some of them will take it out on civilians. The massacre Bob described above is a textbook example. The day before the massacre, five men from the company were killed by snipers that they couldn’t see or find. The next day, the battalion commander sent them on a sweep and into a tiny rural hamlet, where they encountered only civilians–babies, children, women and an elderly man. Members of one platoon rounded them up and they were executed. The order of the day was “kill anything that moves,” according to many of the men’s sworn statements. (Medic Jamie Henry reported the massacre to a CID agent, who accused him of lying. Henry later went public and testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation. Unbeknownst to him, the Army conducted a 3.5 year investigation, contacted 100 former members of his company, and confirmed the massacre as well as several other killings. But no one was prosecuted, and the Army never told Henry or the public about the findings.)
Raven, once again I agree completely with your assessments — I’m a big fan of Wolfe and of Balaban. To all on this string, I would also powerfully recommend “Tree of Smoke” — anybody else read it?
Dear God.
I did not have an opportunity to talk to John Balaban, but his book certainly provides deep, first-hand insights into the phyical and moral cost of war.
Is there any mention of the ROK forces in any of this? They were wayyyyy worse than us.
Yea, I think one thing that struck me was, even as a “pacifist” he found himself dragging people out of cars and kicking their butts over some perceived threat. The War at Home.
Hi,
In the fall of 1967 I saw a home made movie made/brought back from Vietnam by GI’s who had been stationed there. The movie showed events which happened there and was shown to alert us, who may be going, just what to expect. It was one attrocity after another, I still see one in my mind 40 years later. Very bad stuff.
From my vantage point now it seems like a command and control problem, when you just sent the teenagers out there and horrible thing can happen, just because of pier pressure.
-Jon
Well, thank you.
Honesty has been very good for finally figuring out how to live my life again.
As to courage, well, probably not so much. I wasn’t drafted, but I wasn’t real happy about joining the army. I like motorcycles and surfing. But in those days, when you got in trouble you could choose the service over being prosecuted. One of a long string of bad decisions.
I turned 19 on the Cambodian border. I actually found a home amid the savagery, as all you had to do to be accepted and even looked up to was to do stupid, brutal things. I found I had it within myself to do those things.
When I got home I didn’t have the courage to speak out, as others here did. I learned to cook crank, got on a scooter and ran for close to 20 years. Never had to learn to live, never had much in the way of a job, never had much of a relationship. When I wasn’t in jail I got fucked up, and when I wasn’t fucked up I was in jail.
Anyway, a good woman and an amazingly compassionate judge helped me find, if not my sanity, at least some peace. That war robbed me of a lot of my humanity and a big chunk of my life, but I’m afraid I was a willing accomplice.
I never reported any of the crimes and atrocities I saw. And I would have stonewalled any investigation if I had been asked. I can live with the man I see in the mirror these days, but I don’t think he’s earned any pats on the back…
mikey
I am sitting here reading in horrified fascination, I guess you’d say. And I’m weeping because…I don’t know…because I believed I didn’t have skin in this “game,” but the fact is, I do. All of us do. Some, your entire hide. Others not so much. But all of us.
Most of the confirmed cases did not lead to courts martial. I identifed 191 suspects in confirmed cases involving violent crimes. Fifty-two faced courts martial. Twenty-three were convicted. Fourteen received prison sentences.
Around the same time Henry was reporting that massacre, another one occurred not far down the Central Coast. Several soldiers from a reconnaissance squad aimed their M-16s at around 9 women and children and, on the count of three, opened fire. They were reported as enemy kills. A private, Davey Hoag, reported it in 1972. There was a fairly extensive investigation that confirmed his report and identified seven suspects. Only a private was charged, but the division commander withdrew even that charge and discharged him instead.
An investigation into torture allegations confirmed that interrogators from a military intelligence detachment in Binh Dinh province regularly subjected detainees to electric shock and water rag (like water board). The final report named 20 suspects, and eight of them admitted the allegations. Once again, no one was prosecuted, and the entire case was covered up.
So why would the Army go through all that trouble to dig up the truth only to cover it up at the end? Why not just do a cursory investigation or no investigation at all? There were plenty of examples of those in the files too. I asked a lawyer who had been the top legal advisor to the chief of the Criminal Investigation Division in the early 1970s. He said that when he got the assignment, he found the investigation staff was undertrained, overwhelmed and demoralized with little expectation that the cases they investigated would lead to action by higher ups. He instituted a new training regimen. He guessed that the fatter files were cases he kicked back for further work–not with the expectation that they’d get prosecuted but so agents would learn how to conduct a proper investigation. In his words, “a training mission.”
You do from me Brother. . .welcome home
Thanks. Ordered some.
Deborah~ Did you find that many of the specific reports made during the “Winter Soldier” hearings were confirmed by the actual military investigations?
It also seems that there is a lot more documentary material than you put in the book. Is there any consideration for putting the files on line to make it more easily accessible for researchers? It seems that this may also be a way of allowing people to point to the official investigations and note that these are not claims made during the “Winter Soldier” Hearings.
With all respect to those who haven’t ‘been there’ I think it’s hard to understand how powerfully a slog through woods and rice paddies, day after day, that are saturated with death, as your fellow soldiers get picked off by land mines, snipers, booby traps, (in Iraq, IED’s), but you never see an enemy soldier, can fuel a rancid appetite to get back — to “get some” — as we said in VN, even if the ’some’ are not exactly legitimate or appropriate targets. The night before the My Lai massacre Captain Medina told the troops of Charlie Company that they would have the chance, the next day, to avenge the death of a beloved officer who had died from, (I think) sniper fire. Calley, (for whom I have zero respect) the day before returned from an R&R trip on a chopper that contained a pair of American soldier’s books. With the feet still in them.
My understanding is that on the day of the massacre a fair number of Calley’s troops kneeled down in the accepted combat fighting position to fire into a ditch of entirely and obviously helpless civilians. There was absolutely no real — i.e., non-[sychological — need for them to assume that combat stance. It strikes me that the need to see and confront an enemy was so strong that what they saw in their mind’s eye trumped what they could see with their physical eyes.
And then I think of Dean Rusk’s attemopt to justify the VN war in front of the Foreign Relations Committee with the words, “It’s not Munich, but it’s the closest thing we have.”
“History doesn’t repeat itself. But it rhymes.” — Mark Twain
There’s no mention in the archive. However, when Nick and I traveled to Vietnam, we came across massacres committed by ROK forces in Quang Nam province. We went to Quang Nam province to find the site of the massacre that Henry reported. (Members of the company couldn’t remember the name of the hamlet or it’s exact location.) So we went from hamlet to hamlet in the general area where it took place. We came across two memorials to massacres committed by the ROK. We also came across three memorials to massacres committed by U.S. Marines (one of them with ROK). The Marines were based nearby in An Hoa. I sent a FOIA request to the Marines for war-crime investigations. The response said they couldn’t locate any and believe the records were destroyed. By the way, Heonik Kwon writes about massacres by U.S. and ROK forces in his outstanding books, ‘Ghosts of War in Vietnam’ and ‘After the Massacre.’
Mikey… thank you. What an evolution. You have certainly met life’s challenges. Sharing here is a real gift to us. Thanks for the reality and the inspiration.
eCAHN, the Brian Turner book for which your paiting will be the cover? Here’s the title poem from his first book, “Here Bullet.” It seems to fit this day.
Here, Bullet
If a body is what you want,
then here is bone and gristle and flesh.
Here is the clavicle-snapped wish,
the aorta’s opened valves, the leap
thought makes at the synaptic gap.
Here is the adrenaline rush you crave,
that inexorable flight, that insane puncture
into heat and blood. And I dare you to finish
what you’ve started. Because here, Bullet,
here is where I complete the word you bring
hissing through the air, here is where I moan
the barrel’s cold esophagus, triggering
my tongue’s explosives for the rifling I have
inside of me, each twist of the round
spun deeper, because here, Bullet,
here is where the world ends, every time.
btw, Turner’s war was in Iraq.
Thanks for the poem. I haven’t heard anything beyond the first couple of emails, and I haven’t ordered his first book as I’m waiting to hear from him, to get an autographed copy.
Forgot to add it’s published by Alice James Books, 2005. My bad.
There are 9,000 pages of records. The Vietnam War Crimes Working Group collection (RG319) is housed at the National Archives and Records Administration in College Park. The files were declassified in 1990, but lingered in obscurity until 2000, when a handful of scholars (including Nick) and journalists learned of their existence. Unfortunately, NARA officials took them off the shelves sometime in the last couple years. They told me the records weren’t properly processed and contained private information. There’s no plan to process the entire collection. However, they will process individual files requested through FOIA. I and others have managed to daylight some of the records through that avenue. But I’d love to get a FOIA campaign going to free up the rest of them.
Pups Digg is now open so show your support and DIGG this great Book Salon!
After all the courage to come forward … to not have the momentum continued to the point of justice … how incredibly frustrating for all involved. Lessons we are still struggling with today. Accountability and responsibility.
Did the Communist regime ever try to document any of these atrocities by collecting evidence or interviewing survivors. It would seem that they would have done this, at least for the ROK-reported massacres and atrocities. Or will those files, and consequent actions, be permanently off-limits?
They are probably busy with their own, don’t glorify them because they were “justified”.
They might have but the Vietnamese government after the fall of Saigon wouldn’t have been able to do anything to the Republic of Korea Army other than maybe some mild embarrassment.
And it most likely would have devolved into a he said/he said and who wants to believe the Commies anyway situation.
I’m sure Deborah is well aware of this but the LA Times article on the Tiger Force is worth a look.
What would be the procedure to get the remainder of these documents released. It would be tragic if they sat there for decades like the Korean War records of the massacres. Certainly identifiable names of those involved would probably have to be excised (without their permission), but village/hamlet names…and perhaps unit designations could be maintained. It might generate some confessions and perhaps even some emotional resolution for many of these individuals.
So do those that request the files need some particular research-related “need” and how would they be centralized for common release. Forty years to obtain a correct history of events seems like a sufficient time.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Deborah, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your book.
Robert, Thank you for Hosting this good Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought this book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
The Vietnamese did have a “War Crimes” museum in Saigon for some period of time that was transformed into a more neutral site after commercial relations between our two countries became more important.
There is a museum in My Lai commemorating the atrocity there — I’ve been and would recommend it if anyone is intent on traveling to VN: it’s not exactly a happy place, vut as Jonathon Schell once put it, “if we learn to accept this there is nothing we will ot learn to accept.”
I forgot to answer the other part of your question. The Army did not confirm nor, in most instances, disprove the cases labeled as WSI. Most received only cursory investigation. (I describe in brief the steps Army investigators said they took.) The Army confirmed the massacre reported by Henry, who testified about it in Detroit. But the investigation had already begun prior to the Winter Soldier forum.
The WSI investigations warrant a closer look than I could provide in this book.
I sit here and think, “for what”? But then I realize, unlike Mikey, Robert, Scarecrow, the Flamethrower, Southern Dragon, most people have no clue.
Thanks to both of you.
Is there any possibility of making an arrangement with a bookseller for us to buy autographed copies of book salon books? Don’t want to complicate your life, but it would be nice.
Yes, the Vietnam communists collected reports of war crimes by U.S. forces and ROK. I have a file full of them a few feet away that Pete McCloskey lent to me. For the book, I wanted to keep the focus on the Army’s own investigations, which showed war crimes were systemic.
Yes, I’m sure that’s possible. I can follow up on Monday.
Thank you ALL so much. This was so powerful. Good luck Deborah. Thank you for coming.
This was a terrific conversation. Thanks for having us.
Thanks.
Ask him if he remembers when about 20 of us came in his office during Dewey Canyon. His secretary told us he was out and to come back after lunch. We said ok, went down to the cafeteria and charged all our lunches to him! First square meal we’s had in days.
Didn’t say that the NVA and Viet Cong didn’t commit atrocities…nor that those were at ALL “justified”. I have to say I’m a bit mystified by your reaction to what I asked.
But the reality is that those who win conflicts tend to keep records of what the enemy did, sometimes quite accurate, separate from those accounts used for propaganda, revenge or show-trial purposes. After a time those files might become available. The accounts of their own systematic acts of terror would, of course, be deeply hidden.
New post–>
I’m sorry, I was making a general observation, nothing personal at all.
I almost got out of here without starting something!
Earl, I’m sorry I missed your question. I haven’t cross referenced the names of all the men who reported atrocities against their personnel records to determine whether a disproportionate number were draftees. (There’s a mix in the cases highlighted in the book.) But the question’s a good one.
” Washington D.C., 11 April 2006 – The National Archives and Records Administration secretly agreed to a covert effort, led by the Air Force, the CIA, and other still-hidden intelligence entities, to remove open-shelf archival records and reclassify them while disguising the results so that researchers would not complain, according to a previously secret Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). The secret agreement, made between the Air Force and the National Archives, was declassified pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive and posted on the NARA website yesterday. “
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/n…../index.htm
Anyone may request the records, and you can do so by email. I have a list of the files that remain unprocessed and hope to post it soon on the book website ( http://www.thewarbehindme.com ). In meantime, if you’re interested, please send me a note, and I’ll provide you with the information you’ll need. dnelson @ jmail . umd . edu
I did. *g*
Deborah, I spent the better part of 5 years in and around Viet Nam during the war, and saw the myriad human rights problems developing in the military. The war was a kaleidoscope of senses and emotions that I still have not managed to unyoke myself from. I am off to order your book from Powells Books in PDX and even though I know that it will bring a lot of the old feelings to the front again, but at my age today, I think that I will be able to deal with them a lot better than I could for the first years out of country and also after retiring from the military.
It wasn’t until I had married and immigrated to Tahiti, that the memories managed to fade into the background and mists of time. I married a Tahitian, and as such was made a member of the family, they above all helped me chase a lot of the demons away. Living with the love of a Polynesian family will change even the hardest headed person…
I have learned greatly from the Polynesians, both humanity and empathy, I found that being a member of this society is not only a joy, but a priveledge, and honor that made me into a person who realizes that it’s man’s inhumanity to man that is causing a major part of the problem, not only in the military, but in american society. There is too much Me and Them, Me First, I deserve it etc. etc.
I will be waiting eagerly for the postman come about Tues. or Wed.
Ken Jackson
CPO USN Ret.