As the debate on Afghanistan has become more lively, some members of the progressive blogosphere have been cheering on plans to send another 30,000 troops but their positions are equally hard to pin down beyond support for yet another Petraeus “surge.” (And if you remember, that surge was no where near as successful as the PR General portrayed it) Brave New Foundation is hosting a series of video debates – Rethinking Afghanistan- which is very worth watching – and participating in.
One of the arguments that many of these surge supporters rely on involves the continuing civilian killings by US forces. They argue that civilian casualties are caused by US dependence on air strikes because we do not have enough boots on the ground – so let’s send more ground troops.
Surprisingly, that is not the solution US commanders talk about. In fact, this Friday, U.S. General David McKiernan, the commander of both U.S. and NATO troops serving in Afghanistan, issued a joint statement with the Afghan Defense Minister announcing new Rules of Engagement which actually decrease the American role in an attempt to decrease the risk of civilian casualties:
"In an ongoing endeavor to increase partnered operations and develop Afghan capability to defeat terrorists and adversaries the officials have agreed to include more Afghan representatives in the planning and execution of counter-terrorism missions, with more attention to night operations, actions in populated areas and searches," the press release added.
Of course, we have heard this before – whenever the Afghan government really pushes back on the number of civilian casualties, one or another US commander tends to promise a new approach but not only have the casualties continued, they have in fact increased by 40% according to Stars and Stripes.
It’s also important to remember that civilian deaths are not solely caused by US air strikes. In January alone, 53 Afghan civilians were killed in 5 separate US *ground* attacks.
Even if we ignore these points, the addition of more ground troops is more likely to increase the use of air strikes rather than decrease them as the suge proponents argue. In their exhaustive study of civilian casualties Human Rights Watch notes:
Broadly speaking, airstrikes are used in two different circumstances: planned strikes against predetermined targets, and unplanned "opportunity" strikes in support of ground troops that have made contact with enemy forces (in military jargon, "Troops in Contact" or TIC). In our investigation, we found that civilian casualties rarely occur during planned airstrikes on suspected Taliban targets (one in each of 2006 and 2007). High civilian loss of life during airstrikes has almost always occurred during the fluid, rapid-response strikes, often carried out in support of ground troops after they came under insurgent attack. Such unplanned strikes included situations where US special forces units-normally small numbers of lightly armed personnel-came under insurgent attack; in US/NATO attacks in pursuit of insurgent forces that had retreated to populated villages; and in air attacks where US "anticipatory self-defense" rules of engagement applied.
This is quite similar to what happened in Iraq during the surge when the use of air strikes "in support of ground troops" increased dramatically – as did civilian casualties from those air strikes.
Missing from the surge supporters’ arguments is one key piece of information. While they argue that we should all support the plan to add 30,000 more ground troops almost immediately, they seem unwilling to say whether that 30,000 is the final total — or just a downpayment on a new quagmire.
Yet on Friday, Reuters reported on testimony before the House Armed Services Committee in which Stephen Biddle of the Council of Foreign Relations said:
Afghanistan might need a combined Afghan and Western force of 300,000 troops in southern and eastern provinces where the Taliban is strong. "If any significant fraction of this total must be American, then the resources needed will be very large," he said.
Biddle also said
"that fatality rates of perhaps 50-100 per month could persist for many months, if not years"
and Anthony Cordesman testified that the 30,000 "are the bare minimum necessary."
Of course, we are consistently told that if we do not defeat “them” there, we are inviting another 9/11 – an argument that not only seems oddly reminiscent of Bush GWOT rhetoric, but also does not answer how control (even if achievable which is dubious) of Afghanistan would prevent the actions of the small and semi-autonomous cells who after all did their most significant preparation in Hamburg apartments and Florida flight schools.
———————————–
As the debate continues, keep an eye on Get Afghanistan Right for a selection of posts questioning the way forward in Afghanistan.
Here are a few other new articles worth a read:
Jonathan Steel in The Guardian reminds us:
Another myth is that the west "walked away" after the Russians left. If only it had. Instead Washington and Pakistan broke the Geneva agreement by maintaining arms supplies to the mujahideen.
Dr. Assem Akram, an Afghan leader currently living in the US suggests one alternative plan and notes:
The presence of foreign troops roaming around on the Afghan soil and not responding to any authority other than their own is simply unacceptable and not only violates Afghanistan’s Sovereignty, but it antagonizes a large portion of the population, which then is turning a growingly more sympathetic ear to the arguments of groups opposing the current power ‘arrangement’ in Kabul.
James Joyner at the New Atlanticist provides an interesting comparison with the Russian war in Afghanistan and suggests
Western confidence in the efficacy of military forces to affect massive changes in a primitive society could use tempering.
Cernig at Newshoggers suggests the recent news of lost US weapons shows us that
This, folks, is a "fighting machine" too incompetent or too corrupt to be allowed to "surge" in Afghanistan.
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It seems that inevitably in these situations, the occupying nation becomes too invested to leave. In other words, if after 7 1/2 years we left and the Taliban eventually returned to power, we’d have egg on our face… we can’t have that now, can we?
Troops
Home
Now
.. and buy up the poppy crop.
Teddy makes sense. Completely.
But ratfood has called it.
Admiral Mullen thinks we just need to be more like the Roman Empire:
http://tinyurl.com/bjrnfd
“Ours not to reason why …”
I fear Afghanistan is lost for some time.
And sadly, that doesn’t bode well for Pakistan. Or, by extension, for the U.S.
The inevitable result of imperialism is egg on your face in the end. Why can’t they get it?
Afghanistan for the Afghans. Offer humanitarian aid, hospitals, schools, roads, libraries, food, heck how bout a whole foods, but please don’t go in there with weapons.
Lost? what does that mean?
We should initiate a weapons for cash trade in program where we buy back all the weapons and provide cash or crops or bricks or books.
A nationwide oil and gas resources assessment was initiated by USGS in Spring 2003 with funding from the U.S. Trade and Development Agency (TDA). This 24-month activity should be completed in early 2005, and will dovetail with two projects that are being funded by the World Bank. These World Bank projects are for engineering assessments of the oil and gas reserves in existing fields and for an assessment of the fertilizer, sulfur, and power plants associated with natural gas production in the northern oil and gas basins of Afghanistan. The completion of these projects should be near the end of 2004. The USGS project calls for a Quantitative assessment of the northern basins and a Qualitative assessment of the southern basins (Katawaz and Helmand).
Siun,
OT, but a thanks-to-you.
Several months ago you linked to an art gallery that was displaying, for sale, paintings of Iraqi artists. I subsequently bought one. This past week, the gallery director emailed me to ask if the painting I bought could be used as cover art in the second book by this ex-military war poet.
I fear that no amount of troops or U.S. military intervention will turn the country around to anything that the west approves of.
Tribal identity is strong, dislike of years of continuing intervention is high, and I don’t think anything we’ve done is likely to prove persuasive to the average Afghani.
But I could be all wrong.
The 30,000 additional troops from the U S are to augmented by thousands more from other NATO countries and also augmented by additional commitments of Pakistanis on the other side of the border.
USGS increases Afghanistan Oil Estimates by 18 times.
http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=5071
I just love your painting.
Good Puppet.
Wow! and thank Jane who first pointed me to the gallery!
Brilliant news!
Did you see 60 minutes tonight? Pretty interesting piece on Pakistan. They left little room to believe anything but increasing anger with the US in the foreseeable future.
Admiral Mullen is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He mentions that Rome “immediately” recalled the Generals who were guilty of misconduct. (One wonders what the Romans did with their ‘contractors’ when their behaviors were destructive?)
How much like the Roman military commanders does he intend to behave?
There is more, much more, than he has alluded to involved in getting it ‘right’ in Afghanistan (and Pakistan, since he ‘mentions’ that unfortunate nation, as well).
One of those things might very well be to cease and desist with prosecution of the ‘bloody’ war and dare to consider other means of winning the hearts and minds of others – perhaps even removing the military component completely.
It would be a most remarkable (and ‘forward looking’) ‘commander’, who would do that.
Thank you.
If it does appear as cover art, we should do something here at FDL, as Siun was the original link. At least a book salon for the poet!
I’ll keep you in the loop. And see my 20 as a suggestion if and when the second book gets published.
Erm, muh manners!
Good evening Siun;
And thank you, once again, for bringing us the ‘front-line’ rerality.
DW
“reality”
Sheesh!
Siun, do you think that, after winter, there won’t be increased fighting if the U S forces don’t initiate it?
Admiral Mullen also says, “We strive to earn trust.”
Has he, have ‘we’, succeeded?
I think the west needs to be disabused the idea that it’s their role to turn any nation into something which they want it to be.
The West needs to get its tentacles out of the third world and offer assistance when asked by legitimate governments.
The west needs to join the community of nations through a democratic UN with a new charter. Right now a few nations have too much power there now.
heck our nation seems lost to it’s founding principles
As for the “foreign policy elite” the differnce between the left and the right is that the former thinks the U.S should bomb for humanitarian reasons too.
Well that has worked out so well so far.
As for 300,000 troops in Afghanistan, do I sense a new jobs program coming on?
I know this is terribly old-fashioned but rather than just send in more troops wouldn’t it be nice to have a policy first?
Manifest Destiny.
Otherwise known as … the endless War On Terror.
Correct you are, Sander.
But ‘we’ still haven’t learned.
History suggests that Afghanistan is particularly apt in teaching certain aspects of the lesson, however.
No time for evidence. Must. Act. Now. /s
LOL. As pithy a statement of US policy in the last 50 years as I have seen.
” … a new jobs program …?”
Now, Hugh, you mustn’t spring Obama’s surprise too soon, the public is not yet properly ‘primed’.
looks like my spelling today … I kinda like the re-reality concept!
No it hasn’t worked worth a damn so far. Yes, a greatly different policy is needed. I thought I heard that from the Obama campaign and I think that Obama has asked for new policies to be prepared prior to sending more troops and more non-military resources.
People have written that Afghanistan will be Obama’s Vietnam. I don’t think so. The Vietnam charge was made by the ‘who lost China crowd,’ still influential in my youth as a grad student in the mid ’60s. Hard to believe. But Afghanistan isn’t being taken over by the Soviet Union; there isn’t anybody to lose it too, except the unwashed indigenes, whom we don’t like and who don’t like us, but hardly constitute an existential threat to the US of A.
Obama is a speedy learner, and the greatest persuader we’ve had since Reagan (on the Dark Side). The public are fed up with the cost of all our wars. If he can persuade them that making a deal in Afghanistan (i.e. selling out those who we set up there) is the best deal we can get, we are out of there. He should make the Rethugs and Betrayus explain why we should spend our children’s lives and our fortune for something that doesn’t represent a real threat to us.
Pakistan is a tougher nut to crack, but there is an educated liberal class there that is lacking in Afghanistan.
Seems to me that shipping in another 30K troops is likely to be seen as “initiation” – and I find the idea that those troops would quietly sit somewhere … unlikely.
Some daze, one just, simply, has it.
Today, I has it.
;~D
is “except the unwashed indigenes” missing a /s tag?
Could I suggest a scan of some of the Afghan blogs – look at the list here in the right hand column:
http://afghanistan-analyst.org/blogs.aspx
I think that the end of winter will arrive before more U S troops.
I was asking if you think that fighting, with civilian casualties, won’t occur if the U S forces currently in Afghanistan don’t start it.
I can see the recruiting posters (web sites, of course) now …
“Lose yourself in exotic, alluring Afghanistan …
Visit its cool mountain ranges and meet its friendly, welcoming people …
Immerse yourself in history and mingle with the dust of ages past …
Do not fail to avail yourself of the adventure of a lifetime, such chances come but rarely … when opportunity knocks be ready, be willing, and be able to experience the unbelievable …”
The Swat valley is said to be quite beautiful and was an active tourist destination until recently.
Written by a true American.
can we p;ease point out that it wss reagan who sponsored the terrorism that drove the ussr out and that’s the same people we are fighting today
reagan funded our enemies
The news today that the Taliban declared a 10 day cease fire in SWAT is intriguing – and they have made a few vague gestures (the approval of Obama’s closing of Guantanamo for example) – yet I think they will fight until we leave.
There are several problems to the whole picture – what we keep calling “the Taliban” is not a simple unified foe but a diverse grouping of opposition forces who want us gone for various reasons. Popular support for the Kabul government is low – due to corruption, the heavy percentage of hated warlords we placed in power, etc – so some of the fighting is local resistance to an imposed government, some opposition to any invader, some Taliban, etc.
How you avoid battles in such a situation is beyond me – particularly when our very presence leads to efforts to oust us – and when our forces seem completely unable to function in Afghanistan without causing civilian casualties.
that’s why I recommended the following:
Jonathan Steel in The Guardian reminds us:
Another myth is that the west “walked away” after the Russians left. If only it had. Instead Washington and Pakistan broke the Geneva agreement by maintaining arms supplies to the mujahideen
Americans are tired of sending their children to die for nonsense. They were duped with the AQ lines and Saddam and they won’t buy it now.
Everyone can see that what is destroying the great satan is not AQ but his own bankers. We have been defeated by our great economic engine and financial genius and have taken a fair amount of the industrialized nations with is to the dumpster.
We don’t need to fight in the mountains of Asia to make us safe but the canyons of wall street. There are the ones who have stolen america.
That’s an insurgency – a collection of many pissed off people.
The US presence in the third will continue to incite attacks, be it the Cole or Bagram or the Green Zone. We are not welcome as invaders on other countries. Why is this not understood in Washington?
if i were you, i wouldn’t hold my breath re thousands of NATO troops or Pakistan’s renewed commitment
The solution is simple. Send it to Obama.
**********
http://www.poppyformedicine.net/
Thanks. I’m pretty light-headed already.
OT… this is gloomy
“It’s getting through to a growing number of thick skulls these days that most big banks are beyond saving. So why did we put in those trillions, again? What are the chances that we’ll ever see them back? Is it a good idea to nationalize the banks, without having checked the contents of their vaults? Everyone from Roubini to Rosner to even Chris Whalen seems to think so these days. But look: it’s already too late anyway. The system is dead, not just a few individual banks. So why risk god knows how many trillions more?
All the people calling for this are either working in the financial sector or in economics, or have campaigns paid for by the banks. Letting the system die with dignity is not in their favor. If nationalization arrives without proper valuation of assets, you’ll know we’re on the wrong track, Then again, you knew that already. We’re in a tragic spectator sport of sorts.”
War is an expression of diplomatic failure…which is where our resources should go…diplonacy. Walk softly and carry a big stick.
Peace is the expression of prosperity. The Middle East is a long way from us. Convert our economy to sustainable alternative and there is no need for resource wars. The in ground oil is no longer an assest. Cuit the bullshit and tell the truth.
Put this argument to bed. Roll up your sleeves and move legislation through congress giving green investment tax credits.
” Stretched thin in Afghanistan and Iraq, the American military will begin recruiting skilled immigrants who are living in this country with temporary visas, offering them the chance to become United States citizens in as little as six months. “
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15immig.html
How much MONEY is to be ‘made’, Sander?
What does drive our ‘interest’, as a nation, in warfare?
You reasonably suggest that it is NOT ‘patriotism’.
Therefore, what other ‘inducement’ could possibly explain its popularity with the Political Cla$$e$ and America’s Own Ari$tocracy?
One simply cannot imagine …
definitely a/s. I was thinking about the way our beltway types think of them.
“Americans are tired of sending their children to die for nonsense. They were duped with the AQ lines and Saddam and they won’t buy it now.”
Americans have been dying and taxed for Isreali expansion and influence in the Muddle East. No mas…
The US MIlitary has annouced it will seek enlistees by foriegn nationals with the promise of S citizenship.
I take your point about our troops being a cause of the fighting and that the government that we installed is rotten.
I don’t recall that the Afghani people were better off prior to our invasion and don’t see that our immediate departure would result in improvement.
About three degrees of separation. I’ve corresponded with this little press seeking permission to print one of his poems on our blog. Powerful, powerful stuff. I love that your picture will grace his next book. (Assuming you said yes, yes?)
You left out the worst
Quite aside from the problem inherent in so-called “counter-insurgency warfare”, that you are making war on the population, and not an enemy army, in Afghanistan we have the additional problem of logistics.
Forget about a 300,000 man army in Afghanistan. Even if there were the political will to do so, it would not be logistically possible. Even without enemy action, just keeping supplies running to that many is not in the cards for a theater hundreds of miles from the closest port, where much of that distance is traversed only by scant and poor roads crossing high mountains. With the worst of that terrain in the hands of folks who sympathize with the insurgents, the ability to keep even 30,000 reliably supplied is doubtful.
Yes, there is the alternate route, via air bridge to airfields in the former Central Asian Republics. But again, even without enemy action, and assumimg the total and secure cooperation of these govts, supplying an army of 300,000 this way is not possible. We don’t have the transport capacity. No one does. Still assuming total and secure cooperation from the govts of the “stans”, it would be a strain to have to rely on this route just to keep 30,000 supplied. But we don’t have total cooperation even now, much less guaranteed at any level with any security. Even if the stans were willing, the are highly subject to Russian pressure. And it is precisely when our forces, whether 30,000 or 300,000, are threatened by loss of their main supply route through the Khyber Pass, that the stans, and/or Russia, would then hold those troops of ours utterly hostage to their goodwill.
Without the steady flow of supplies, we don’t lose in Afghanistan merely in the sense that we lost in Vietnam, that our forces have to leave without achieving their aims. We lose in the sense of 30,000, or 300,000 of our troops not being able to leave because they are dead or captured. Think Dien Bien Phu.
We need to be out of Afghanistan yesterday, and not just because it’s foolish and wrong to wage war on a whole people, a folly and a wrong not decreased just because some of those people want us there waging war on their countrymen. We need to be out for the same reason that the French needed to not be in Dien Bien Phu. As a French general put it upon reviewing that terrain, “Nous sommes dans un pot-a-chambre, et nous serons emmerdes.” We’re going to get crapped on.
Yes, of course.
Nite all
It’s hard to see how increasing troop levels to 300,000 will work when 500,000 didn’t work for the USSR. Nonetheless, the escalation of troops had very little to do with what success the U.S. had in Iraq, post ethnic cleansing. What did “work”, was that after the Sunni insurgency (along with its support population) had literally been run out of Baghdad, it was an easy mark to put them on the U.S. dole in exchange for kicking out AQiI, whom were foreign and they didn’t really like anyway. Unlike in Iraq, the Pashtun/Taliban insurgency is much closer to AQ, and have a long history together against foreign occupation. So it is much more difficult and unlikely for them flip sides. Another tactic used in Iraq, but is impractical in Afghanistan, was building security walls around neighborhoods, markets, and important businesses – in conjunction with establishing mini-bases of joint U.S.& I.S.F in those neighborhoods. These efforts and others did indeed bring the level of armed violence down, but have merely postponed any political developments that would have ended the war. So, even if the U.S. were to escalate troop numbers in Afghanistan, there are no workable corresponding tactics they could also borrow from what they did in Iraq. And even if they could, they in all likely hood would only postpone the necessary political developments.
OT with apologies. I’ll be brief. Going to Amazon to see “Here Bullet,” the first book of poems by the author eCAHN cited (and earlier today to see the book the Book Salon featured) brought me to Amazon’s Kindle. Does anyone have this? Is it a good thing? I am inundated with my precious books, and FDL has brought a fair number of them into my house. Ooops. There goes brief. Sorry.
The situation of the Afghan people was awful before our arrival – but it remains so and most likely will continue to do so after we leave.
Historically I think we should look at how our support for the Mujahadeen contributed to the current situation – but that’s a longer topic for another day.
Meanwhile, I take my lead from the women of RAWA – who are quite clear:
http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm
My support goes to them and to Malalai Joya – they are the hope for a future Afghanistan.
” Washington D.C., February 15, 2009 – Twenty years ago today, the commander of the Soviet Limited Contingent in Afghanistan Boris Gromov crossed the Termez Bridge out of Afghanistan, thus marking the end of the Soviet war which lasted almost ten years and cost tens of thousands of Soviet and Afghan lives.
Soviet interpretation of the reasons for providing internationalist assistance to Afghanistan, and sending troops there after the repeated requests of the Afghan government. It criticized the U.S. role in arming the opposition in disregard of the Geneva agreements, and thus destabilizing the situation in the country. “
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N…../index.htm
Barbara and ECAHN – keep me updated – media dot firedoglake at gmail dot com and I’ll make sure our team hears.
Important points – thank you.
Yeah, right. Like the Iraqis were, before we invaded?
(Possibly some of the ayatollahs would support the Taliban, but I doubt that most of the people in Iran would.)
Iraqi folk music…just was given a CD with 16 songs…arabic music done in rap style
They Taught Me
Segue Bezikh
Oh Mother, The Handsome Man Tortures Me
Yumma, Al Hilou (Mother, Here’s My Beauty)
Ahl Al Aqil (Oh, People of Reason)
Choubi Choubi
Ya Binaya Goumi (Oh Girl, Stand Up)
Front My Hope
Ala Honak (Take It Easy)
Ashhad Biannak Hilou (I Admit You Are Beautiful)
Walla (By God)
Palestinian
The rest were untitled…anyone ever hear these?
Cultural exchange is a good start. A college age girl gave them to me today. We cou;d do more for peace in this way. Youth and school exchange. When the symphony went to North Korea the moods were altered. Peace.
Oh, no!
America is different.
Afghanistan has defeated virtually every effort to subdue its people and tame its terrain, but we’re different, we’re ‘exceptional’.
C’mon, gtomkins, we really gotta find out just how dumb we can be.
High mountain passes that become impassible?
Not a problem.
Terrain that would challenge a seasoned, well prepared outdoors person?
Not a problem.
Logistics?
Hey, we’ve got Haliburton, therefore, not a problem.
See?
There are no insurmountable problems, just a failure of will and imagination.
We be ready.
Bring it on.
Note: the preceding snark was for entertainment porpoises only. (But don’t be surprised if you hear something quite similar (and intoned very seriously) some day, very soon.
;~(
Thanks for that. It was the best thing I’ve seen in a while.
Good evening, eCAHN.
Pleasant and restful dreams.
Siun, a friend of mine is a professional photographer who has spent a lot of time in Afghanistan (also Pakistan and Iraq, along with African and Central America countries). She’s in Honduras now. Something in my heart tells me I ought to put you in touch with each other. Not as paid work for her, but rather because of your shared concerns about Afghanistan. She has started a non-profit called “Fifty Lanterns,” bringing solar powered lighting and assorted other items to the impoverished people of Afghanistan. It’s a cool non-profit, but more than that is her immense caring about Afghanis and the price they’ve paid for our insanity.
Sounds fascinating – I’d love to learn more!
nodding … I am always tempted to just post that over and over as the only thing worth saying on Afghanistan.
Here’s the link to Fifty Lanterns. But in order to feel the heart of this, it’s important to communicate with Linda. And BTW, her photos are beautiful! I had the immense honor to have the photos from her first Afghanistan trip shown on my kitchen wall! *g*
With the American Debacle in Iraq still a long way from final close out and with the American economy and funny money housing/real estate/mortgage banking fiasco still afar from being balanced out going deep/deeper into Afghanistan seems wrongly motivated and poor on long term view quality.
After the French were routed in Vietnam in the 1950’s the Americans began to move in thinking what had befallen the French would not happen to USA.
The 1950’s were a hot house for American militarism. Tactical and strategic thinking linked up with newly thought out weapons,warplanes and capacity to inflict deep strikes with fewer machines with greater ferocity and delivery power.
American ground war tactics evolved for the use of helicopters and by the mid 1960’s Americans were able to insert the wide and intense use of helos into Vietnam ground war logistics and tactical arenas.
The Americans went with big air war tactics and strategies in Vietnam. Final American troop number in Vietnam ended up being well over 500,000.
On paper and in theory Vietnam should have collapsed under this American onslaught. Yet it did not. By 1975 Americans were to see film footage of the hasty/fear driven retreat out of Saigon.
American firepower and intense ground/air war tactics and strategies had lost to a poor,agrarian Southeast Asian land and people. This was no even match or contest in terms of economic or military power. Americans should have won and yet did not. This is what took place. Think about that.
Despite the Americans having rained destruction down on Vietnam and killed Vietnamese in the tens of thousands and throwing huge amounts of money at Vietnam the Americans lost.
So how will Americans going into Afghanistan deep and wide turn out?
Very likely not much different than how Americans fared in Vietnam.
Back then it was the helos that were going to tip the balance. Today it evidently is the use of airpower attacks or use of chickenshit/cowardly remote control drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan that are going to tip the win to America.
Afghanistan is a big place and Pakistan is a hornets nest and the use of airpower or these drones to kill Afghanis and Pakistanis willy nilly/helter skelter style can not/will not have a good outcome.
Between Afghanistan and Pakistan do the Americans really think they can bomb and kill to victory?
History of American War in Vietnam would show not.
what constitutes ‘improvement’ from your perspective? the Afghan perspective is relatively straightforward – withdrawal of foreign troops from their lands and their departure would constitute ‘improvement ‘ to them. do US Americans have any right to insist to to impose their notions of ‘improvement’ on them? the Taliban were defeated once, but were allowed to regroup and rearm – now they a disparate force that taps into the a sense of patriotic nationalism and outrage among the people of the land. there won’t be equal rights for women whether US-NATO troops remain or leave and it’s not likely to happen in the forseeable future, at least in out lifetimes. going back to the issue that hugh raised, the crux of the issue is what does the US hope to gain from its past and current policies in Afghanistan and Pakistan? OBL? that can be achieved through astute intelligence and diplomacy. control of resources as hackworth suggests? would it be cheaper in both the medium and long terms to invest in alternative energy sources?
teddy upstairs
In spite of the debacle that was our ‘adventure’ in Vietnam, a great deal of money was made.
Presumably, Irak has proved equally profitable for some.
This is NOT about sense, this is about dollars.
But, you are absolutely and totally correct, shootthatarrow.
We’ll never rachet up to the 30K. Hell, we can’t even support what we have there, now.
Our economy can’t take another 5 years of war machine investment, in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Obama will have us out, hopefully in 3- years, and hopefully is already dealing with Russia and China to ensure that the Taliban don’t get access to the Paki Nukes.
And then, we can negotiate OUR support and investment in the natural resources with all parties to get our needed share of same.
No one wants them nukes available to the Talibani, or any other radical group.
The sooner we let Russia and China assume the burden for handling Afghanistan and Pakistan, the better.
However, I fear the IMF and the World Bank are operating on their own, without complete regard for US citizens, workers, and such. They are working for world hegemony. And they may find Prez Obama an obstacle.
Life is simple, don’t screw it up.
My bad . . . . Siun, great thread and thoughts . . . as well from others, too . . .
While the econ crises looms large, the reality is that our war machine budget is killing us more than any other single econ factor.
And as long as that war machine budget gets the grease, we will continue to spiral into a morass of poverty and depravation amongst the masses of our nation that will destroy us, one and all.
Improvement to me would be an end to the fighting that allows for a political system in Afghanistan that is of relative decency. We owe the Afghani people a great deal. The present government, as well as the Taliban, are rotten and neither should be allowed control if we can reasonably deny it.
We should be required to bring vast aid, in food, communications, agricultural techniques, and hundreds of schools dedicated to teaching pupils of both sexes.
We might be able to bring them short-term if we can get them the hell out of Iraq. Short-term we need to see if we can help the Pakistanis regain control of their country and, whether we can afford it or not, we owe Afghanistan a bunch. Also we have to prop up the Pakistani economy.
Just once, I’ld like like to see whoever wrote that be given a chance.
Thank you, Siun.
Tomorrow morning I’m doing follow-up calls with our Wa. state senate in regards to Resolution 8602 2009-10..Recognizing Israel’s Interest in Democracy. Passed by voice-vote on Jan21,2009.!!! 31 dems and 18 repubs.
We can not allow applause for war crimes in our name. This is the conversation I have with the staffers and they’re in agreement almost across the board. Several actually encouraged me to keep pursuing a “fix”. We have to undo this minor piece of crap paper-work that passed because no one but the haters/war machine was paying attention.
Unless it’s best to just let the bullshit slide by. Just let it go. And focus on the people.
I’m so confused as to the best use of my energies in a time of immense chaos.
I let them [ the senate] settle in. Now it’s time to address the horrific resolution they let slide by. Or not.
F%$K!!!!!!??
“I think the west needs to be disabused the idea that it’s their role to turn any nation into something which they want it to be.”
So simple, so straight on. But lets factor the bankers and them 1% into that . . .
Great comment, Sander . . . .
That kind of nationalism and ethnocentrism will get us all killed.
Or some other country. Dead. Millions. Oh, Iraq, comes to mind.
Please.
How come that’s such new news to anyone, these daze? You know it. I know it.
But for some, it’s like, HISTORY!
And as such, unknown . . .
Teh ignorance runs rampant?
I got no clue to ’splain why that info is so ’shocking’ to folks . . . you?
I mean, it’s like folks forgot that the Taliban KICKED OUT Dick Cheney and Halliburton on the gas pipeline deal in ‘98, which is WHY we invaded Afghanistan, in the first place! (damn I sure hope no one in here thinks we invaded Afghanistan to find Bin Laden).
Hey, Larue… You know I was just messin’ with you the other night, right?
;~P
You are one of the few I’ve read that is able to describe The Taliban as NOT a single entity.
Dawg help us should our MSM ever get to that level of understanding and spread the truth.
Like the propaganda from Vietnam, and previe wars back to the Civil One, and the one before that (1776), identifying the enemy, and labeling them, is how you fool the sheeple.
It’s time we don’t get fooled, again . . . and yer helping that effort. Thanks. (h/t)
I think Reagan (rih) armed them, Saudi Arabia funded them.
Washington is not the issue, it’s the bankers . . .
It’s the money people running the game, the rest (including Washington and our electeds) are puppets. Who sold out, long ago.
We the sheeple are on our own . . . it’s us, and the money people.
Who wins?
I don’t know… but the money people seem to be in a bit of a corner.
Wishful thinking though that may be…
Krapped on, spat out, and left broken, bleeding and dying abroad and at home.
Hoss, that’s just pure simple truth. Thanks for sharing it. Love the Dien Bien Phu analogy. *G*
Thanks, Siun-for keeping this subject on the front page.
I pretty much disagree with you. But thanks for the reply, and thoughts.
Messin? I don’t know . . . it’s the toobz, doode . . . *G*
Thanks also.
If I may ask, what’s with all those little faces bespeckling some fine-looking stew recipes?
I guess I answer my own angst. Resolution 8602 2009-10 can’t go unchallenged. Oh,man, I hate this. If anyone has a better reason to abandon this stupid quest stop me now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of all the moral indignation in the world….this one had to hit me upside the head.
Your words; did you ever manage to get past lower level staff, or were you stonewalled?
************
” The tide is starting to shift towards recognition that it might have been a major mistake. Supposedly there’s talk of doing a new Resolution since they can’t be “undone”.
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3343