Are you really shocked, shocked!! Blue Texan? Everything is a prediction. We live in hope, realizing one crystal ball is no better than another. I, echoing Lyndon Johnson, say these dogs won’t hunt. Others think things will come around and this too shall pass. How long will it take to decide which one is right?

Assuming the bill is still about 40% tax cuts,….

That’s not depressing – it’s insane.

Perhaps the title to this thread should be – as always – “The Incredible Shrinking Democratic Party”.

Actually , that title would work for a significant percentage of all FDL posts.

Universal entitlement?

Correct you are, jayt.

Depressingion.

Fixed it for you.

Word coming out of committee is that housing purchase tax credit cut in half.

PLEASE start catering to the progressives instead!

One notes that President Obama spoke today, in Fairfax, Virginia, to those who think the ‘Stimulus’ to ‘big’.

Those of us who think it increasingly parsimonious, obviously, are not yet worthy of his attentions …

I am going to start a new business. Demzyte-Natural Party Enhancement

I don’t know if comparing what a big big bill it might have been is relevant. It’s all theoretical until it goes to BO’s desk. Even if the GOP decreases a category, if there is still X dollars more than zero, that’s X more than there was before.

I would like to see comparisons between categories of spending instead of comparisons the senate vs. house versions. IOW, how much more defense spending vs. infrastructure at home? maybe spending for elderly was cut because they already have programs (not saying that’s true, but that might be some of the kind of thinking going on). some desired spending might be coming up in future bills? or covered in other programs?

signed, pollyanna

Uh, hello? The 3 “moderate ” Republicans already voted on this bill! WHY do THEY get a second bite? And hasn’t Pelosi spent the last week calming us down with the promise that she was going to insist that some of the progressive stuff that the Senate allowed to be taken out (for the price of ZERO R votes) be put back in during reconciliation??

LOL! good one.

didn’t he give house dems a pep talk? just askin’ not arguin’

I think actually some of that was (see the TP link). But the overall bill is shrinking.

Nice.

My $500 bucks in tax relief will go towards health care bills and not into the general economy.

Until we fix health care, this economy will continue to tank.

THE SUBVERSIVE REPUBLICAN PARTY

Republicans are practicing subversive forms of demagoguery and guerrilla obstructionism that are intended to destabilize our economy for purposes of political exploitation. Republicans AREN’T making a sincere effort to stop the bleeding their incompetent leadership and failed policies created. Instead, they’re using conflicting economic theories as a smokescreen to conceal their real agenda, which is to undermine President Obama and cause him and America to fail. Republicans are laughably professing that their disgraceful political whoring had nothing to do with the banking, real estate, stock market and employment catastrophes that resulted. Republicans are trying to hamstring Obama to prevent him from undoing the incompetent negligence of George W. Bush. Republicans are offering up subjective controversial arguments they know no one can agree on in order to disrupt and deny progressive change. They’d rather create political gridlock than endure the political consequences of effective Democratic governance. That’s how they gained power and that’s how they’re trying to retain it. They are not the LOYAL OPPOSITION. They are the ENEMY WITHIN whose political priorities have eroded their moral and ethical standards to the point that treachery and betrayal are their preferred methods of operation. It’s one thing to vigorously advocate their conservative beliefs; it’s another thing entirely for them to willfully sabotage America’s government because a successful Democratic president would not be vulnerable to the fears and hatreds that have produced and sustained the radical Republican corporatism and extremism that have poisoned and divided America.

lmao

Damn! I need a drink!

Several sources told CNN that the number is lower to satisfy the three moderate Republican senators.

i call bullshit because i don’t believe it is anything more than kabuki.

lots of dems see more eye-to-eye with the batshit crazy party (that would be the “republicans” in polite company) than they do with us. the excuse of the “three moderate Republican senators” serves two purposes: first it lets the D leadership do what they want in order to satisfy their wall street backers while asking us to believe that it’s all the the fault of those mean nasty republicans. second, this is how the DSCC is planning to campaign in 2010 – that they need us to help them get to 60 senators so they will be able to finally do what they’ve been telling us they really want to do but can’t yet (see mean nasty republicans who won’t let them).

it’s a fucking con and i’m not playing.

It must be 5 O’clock somewhere.

yes.

And it’s sunny & warm somewhere, so I recommend a margirita.

Yup! It is snowy in northern Arizona today but my wife is heading to tropical beach today in Costa Rica.

This fucking blows.

Size matters, guys.

Jeez.

margiritaville, ca.
just west Rancho Cordova

it’s a fucking con and i’m not playing

I think you nailed it. This is going to play out over a longer time-line than any of us want to see. Batten down the hatches for a really nice, big, Depression. My grand-parents kept a cow in their yard. It helped supply the family’s milk.

Christ. i would hate to be the guy who had to sell you a car. )

It is 5: in Greenland

The loss of over 4000 soldiers in Iraq and others in Afghanistan are also not called “generational theft” nor the more apt “generational murder”.

Taking tax dollars from WORKING people (teachers, nurses, firefighters, barbers, mechanics) and handing it by the buckets to CEOs at big banks and on Wall Street is GOOD welfare. Planning to address “entitle reform on social security and medicare” as another means of providing money to the Robber Barons is also GOOD policy and FAIR policy.

Obama lauds FDR in one breath, and then plans to disassemble everything good he did with another. He is also seeking to put a knife in the back of ANY idea of universal healthcare (by murdering medicare).

Obama goes on TV and compares Japan and Sweden with our current problem. He talks about how what Japan did lead to the “lost decade” (my ASS…Japan STILL suffers the results of NOT nationalizing its banks beyond the current meltdown) and that Sweden, with nationalization, turned out pretty well. He then says that doing things well and successfully is not the American way and that we will go the Japanese way and NOT nationalize banks because, you know, that NEVER works and THAT is the American way.

Of course, the fact that FDR nationalized banks and then banks were nationalized again after the S&L scandal is somehow forgotten. Clearly, those were NOT the Amerikan Way(tm), because they worked and didn’t shift wealth from bottom to top wholesale. The fact too that a whole slew of other countries in Latin America AND Western Europe have used nationalization to save their banks and economies is also ignored. So too is ignored the IMF study that shows that bailing out the zombies DOESN’T WORK and that bankruptcy DOES work (ie, nationalization).

Obama is NOT the change we are looking for.

Impeach Obama before he can do any more damage. It could NOT be any worse had McCain been at the helm.

On a tropical beach it doesn’t matter!

The Dems used the war issue twice, so I guess you could be right that they’d play us again and again over the recovery or healthcare or whatever’s next.

Dunno about the ‘pep talk’ to the House, dosido, but a spinal infusion might be the minimum ‘requirement’ as regards the Senate …

We shall have to wait and see …

‘Something’ is better than ‘nothing’ … unless it isn’t.

Personally, I’d rather err on the side of caution.

By Obama’s own estimate there is a 2 trillion dollar “hole” in the economy,
t’would seem a ‘plug’ of at least that size is necessary, otherwise we’re going to see water over the top of the levee while we’re down below hoping our fingers are enough …

Well, the final bill will probably be $790 billion, but from news accounts I’ve seen this is a result of cutting out some of the tax cuts and adding in more spending (on school construction, state aid, and health care), so…

Obama has proved that the economic recovery act is popular. He went into the heart of Republican-land and was greeted with enthusiasm and wild cheers. Republicans who want to take a stand against this bill are taking a big risk.

The bank bail-out is another story entirely. Geithner should wake up and smell the coffee. He should deliver this message: shape up, or we’ll turn you over to the FDIC, like James Galbraith suggested yesterday on Democracy Now! No more lame excuses. No more “We’re too big to fail” nonsense.

Bob in HI

It could NOT be any worse had McCain been at the helm.

Uh, I’m going to disagree with you on that.

recession depression transgression digression concession.
The sop is getting thinner…gangs rule the streets it will be ugly as we are a nation of weapons. Stay out of the inner city thay have been left to their own devises. Mad MAx after the WWIII. Isreal getting more aggressive in attacking arabs and muslims. Coming…new war funding packages…interment camps and prisons. Can anybody spare some change…not the Obama change..when there is no hope people get on dope and habituate their environment.
No medical…no food…no rent…get a tent.

As the saying goes: They labored mightily and brought forth a mouse.

The truth is that none of these various versions even begins to do what is needed. They don’t even do half of what is needed. Add in Geithner’s goofy giveaway and we have programs that don’t fix either the real or paper economies. I’m using the word in about every other comment I’m making but for me this spells depression.

Obama doesn’t know what he is doing.
His economics team definitely don’t.
The Congress doesn’t.
The Democrats don’t.
The Republicans spectacularly don’t.
The media don’t.
The financial community also spectacularly doesn’t.

In other words, we are screwed.

This Geithner must really be something. He apparently argued down the entire Obama economics & politics teams.

Maybe they just let him get out on a limb all by himself.

Bob in HI

i actually agree with bigbrother. we don’t have to get histrionic to envision what is coming.

time to study what helped people survive the Depression: communities operating on the barter system. Can we start this now? dinner co-ops with our neighbors, babysitting co-operatives, vegetable gardens, services bartering. It’s not up to the feds, never was. We’ll have to get to know our neighbors and save ourselves.

And, the worst part is that everyone in positions of power refuse to listen to the people who do know.

Again but did he or is this just more kabuki? As I asked last night, where was Larry Summers in all this? Does anyone seriously think that Summers wasn’t involved in Geithner’s plan or that he didn’t approve it?

My grandfather was a building contractor. During the depression he had no work. The whole family went on the local harvest circuit picking beans, berries, hops, and whatever else they could find. They made less than a penny a pound- but everyone survived and by the forties he was building homes again.

Saw a bit of Krugman and some other economists on the NewsHour last night talking about nationalization of the banks. Hell, even a former Wallstreeter was on, saying they don’t like the idea of nationalization, but at this point it doesn’t really matter what they like.

Maybe they just let him get out on a limb all by himself.

I’m wondering taht too. Obama wouldn’t touch that stuff at his press conference. Seemed unusual for an intelligent president to be so deferrential to a cabinet member.

my neighbors suck. good fences make good neigbors, i say.

And, the worst part is that everyone in positions of power refuse to listen to the people who do know.

And when it hits, they will say no one could have predicted . . .

It’s a long slow completely predictable and avoidable trainwreck. Unfortunately it will not be those responsible for it who will bear the weight of it but tens of millions of American families.

Politics aside, we are probably in for a pretty rough patch. Certainly a good time to take out a pencil and see how deeply you can cut your living expenses and how much you can salt away for rainy days…

My Liberal Brethren, don’t fret…this is just round 1. There will be additional spending stimulus bills as this one certainly is not going to work. The good news is the next one will be for EVEN MORE. Why you ask…since no one can afford to buy our debt in the current economic climate, we are simply going to print the money. This will lead to inflation, or God forbid Hyper-inflation.

did you guys see the Eric Cantor “satire” video? Really eyeopening arrogance and demonstrates what pols think of their constituents…

yep, we’re doing that now…eyeballing every penny.

wow. cool story. thanks for sharing.

I rather think that Obama’s economic team DOES know what it is doing. They are trying mightily to save their own asses. Ruben, Summers, Geithner are ALL architects of CDS’s and CDOs and all the other deregulation-spawned monsters. Ruben was ruler of Citi before this. The ONLY way he and the others can actually do the right thing is to admit their own evil. THEY helped create this and fixing it for real requires that they admit this (and even pay the piper). They wont, so they are doing the only thing left: fail to bail out their buddies and their reputations.

I also heard someone say “hey, it’s not our job to make wall street happy” wow! you mean, government doesn’t answer to shareholders or something, like we don’t have to run the company/country for a profit? what a concept!

Here’s a link for anyone who hasn’t seen this disgusting piece of garbage (pun intended). (There, I typed an entire comment on it without swearing once.)

that’s unfortunate, but… all your neighbors? you must have some local connections that would have your back in time of need…

My job is safe until the end of December this year (NIH grant). After that…we’ll see if things are still rocketing downward or if things are just beginning to pull out of a dive. With Obama and his econ team, I expect the rockets to be firing full thrust towards the ground for a good, deep, below ground-level penetration and explosion.

I’ve got a little land, a gun, lots of ammo, and horses. I’ll ride this one out.

Unfortunately it will not be those responsible for it who will bear the weight of it but tens of millions of American families.

and hundreds of millions of people in other countries.

Screw the failing banks..Just one Federal owned Bank could handle everyones banking obligations much like the Post Office handles everyones mail delivery. People could use the nonfailing banks like they use Fed Express or UPS, if they so choose.

Charlie Rose had on some guy last night that had done a movie about Alan Greenspan. He sort of typified a lot of the fragmented thinking I’m seeing. OTOH he picked apart Greenspan’s easy credit policies but then went on to say maybe it would be better to just let the worse happen and work it out from there. It is a kind of thinking which totally misses the human suffering involved in this.

In other words, we are screwed.

A number of us suspected that from the start. I have a lot of sympathy for Obama’s economics crew — they are as competent as anyone has a right to expect them to be. The financial disaster we are facing may simply be insoluble. The Masters of the Universe had 20 good years to fuck over the economy, and seem on the whole to have succeeded very well, thank you. Letting the big banks go under is popular here (and I’ve admitted to liking the idea), but we really don’t know the consequences and the Lehman fiasco gives cause for prudence.

Everyone is walking around blindfolded in a field littered with land mines.

truly heinous on any given day, but during these times esp. so. I hope Colbert takes Cantor down.

My rightwing buddy says the Republicans are still claiming they’re being cut out of the process.

My response was, if that’s true, then they should find out where every discussion related to this program is. They should bring media cameras and microphones with them and break into the rooms, being sure to pan every face in the room.

If they aren’t involved in the process, why not? It’s not like anyone can keep a secret on Capital Hill, so where these discussions are taking place is most likely well-known.

If they feel they are being cut out, then they should break in under the watchful media eye and let the American people judge whether, in fact, only one party is involved in this discussion.

If not, STFU and get on with it.

To quote several attorney friends of mine when I raise questions of injustice … “It has ever been thus …”

Who would have thought our special, unique ‘exceptionalism’, as a nation and empire, would betray us in this, our direst moment?

(Actually, we ain’t to really dire and grim …yet. But its comin’…)

There are those who say, “This won’t be any worse than the Great Depression.”

One notes that NONE of those sanguine souls lived through that little ’setback’, as well as the fact that, as a people, we are far less able to deal with such things and far, far more vulnerable. As a society we are also more nasty and make mock of the idea of a social ‘contract’.

On the bright side, ‘experts’ assure us that ’society’ will not collapse so long as the pecking order (the ‘hierarchy’, as the ‘experts’ term it) remains ‘intact’.

Personally, I find small comfort in that, considering the nature of our pecking order.

Exactly, and that’s why, regardless of what we think about Obama’s policies on any given day, I love his strategy of spotlighting the human factor in those policies.

night and day from darth cheney and boy george.

I have a lot of sympathy for Obama’s economics crew — they are as competent as anyone has a right to expect them to be.

i have sympathy for them too – but i don’t buy they are as competent as i have the right to expect. larry summers has been wrong about so many things and for so long that it boggles my mind how the word “competent” can live in the same sentence with “larry summers” unless preceded by an “in”

Oh and Rose expressed a certain amount of what for him passes for frustration. He said and no one seems to know how to handle all this. Well, like eCahn said, this is true especially when the powers that be refuse to listen to anyone who does know.

cnbc sez ABA (American Banking Assn) is going on the offensive (not noting the irony of how offensive they’ve been all along). Gonna blame the whole crisis on nonbank lending.

Indeedy!

My high school english teacher, and neighbor, had a good lecture on the great depression which he had lived through. The conclusion was “I hope you never have to live through a depression, but if you do, you will survive”.

Mr. Densmore had a knack for that sort of thing.

This is the reason why the powers-that-be have surrounded themselves with fences and gates. Their feudal castles and forts.

ok. my neigbors don’t suck and I even got to know some campaigning for the President. hadn’t thought of the stuff you mention. except the garden and that was only for myself. it’s a good idea. but i think that people in my neighborhood really don’t appreciate how bad things are. bad economic stuff happens to “other people.” sure, they know it’s bad. i just don’t think they realize that it’s>that bad.

From TPM:

Adam Posen, deputy director of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, who has studied Japan’s “Lost Decade” of economic growth, sees startling parallels with our current situation — including the anemic initial efforts to bailout the banking system. Posen admits that he was slower than some to anticipate the depth of the current crisis, but now that we’re here he says there’s no good reason to hesitate to follow the Swedish model: wipe out the shareholders of insolvent banks, have the government briefly take them over, and sell off the good assets to new private banks.

Who coulda guessed?

The really rich people have always had security. Now the faux rich have faux security—-little piddly ass gates that anyone can get through. They are like much else in this country- all hat and no cattle.

linky?

Gardens are not a bad idea, but we are probably past the point where a person can grow a few vegetables and chickens and get through a rough spot.

Even if you own a home, you have property taxes, utilities, medical insurance, etc. They dwarf the food savings.

It’s tougher to get by with no income today than it might have been fifty years ago on a small family farm.

The financial disaster we are facing may simply be insoluble. The Masters of the Universe had 20 good years to fuck over the economy, and seem on the whole to have succeeded very well, thank you. Letting the big banks go under is popular here (and I’ve admitted to liking the idea), but we really don’t know the consequences and the Lehman fiasco gives cause for prudence.

I don’t think it is, at least not yet, but if our leaders continue to dither and waste time and resources on distractions, half-measures, and bad policy then we could get there.

Bank nationalization would be very different from letting Lehman fail. The government would be providing the backstop to the banking system Lehman never had. The banks would not go out of business but they would be restructured and regulated, their debt made known and cleared, and they would be recapitalized. There is just no comparison between what is suggested here and what happened to Lehman.

cantor. scumbag.

I know the figures are depressing. But a small light of hope is the National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank which will be formed to fund infrastructure projects. This is suppose to sink 600 billion in the first year and trillions more in 5 years time. That means a great deal of jobs funded in little to no cost to the tax payer.

That is what Krugman was suggesting last night on the NewsHour.

eCahn’s got the linky at 53…oh the dickitude.

Once again the rethugs are playing with words being cut out of the process means in everyday english that they are not getting everything they want. Several Rs were involved in the senate negotiations. They walked out of the meetings – they were not drug out of the meetings kicking and screaming.

Did someone “speak to” Gibbs? He seems a little less like Scott McClellan today.

File under better late than never, I suppose.

My 53.

It’s what everyone who knows anything has been suggesting for months.

They do personality disorder very well.

Christ. i would hate to be the guy who had to sell you a car. )

LOL.

this is seriously funny. 24 years ago i bought a car from a dealership in town. after 17 years and living in 2 other states i came back to MA and went to buy another car. having been satisfied with my first car (after all i kept it for 17 years), i wanted to go back to the same dealership. but sadly they were not listed in the yellow pages so i went to a different dealer. the sales person was shocked to see my old car – or more accurately the little dealer sticker which i had never removed. turns out the “new” dealership is run by the sons of the dealer i originally bought the car from. wes, my salesperson, even brought some of the other staff out to see it. i did buy another car from them (i’ve now had it for 7 years) and wes still greets me when i bring it in to be serviced. last time i gave him a bit of a hard time – i didn’t really believe he remembered me – and truth was he didn’t remember my name, but he did describe exactly both my old car and my “new” one. very nice guy btw, i would recommend him to anyone looking to buy a car. *g*

I have Gibbs on but not really listening…what caught your attention?

And, in keeping with the feudal imagery, we have the Divine Right of … Money, and mixing my histories a bit, the ‘enclosure’ initiatives have banished us from the use of the commons which are now reserved for the edification and enrichment of our Own Ari$tocracy and their obedient lap-dogs, the Political Cla$$.

All that’s missing are the serfs.

Where ever do you suppose they might be?

;~(

I know, I know…been reading it here for a long time.

wow. that’s cool. You should call it in to Car Talk. :)

People give us a hard time when we bought our new car, but we had the old ones for 10-12 years per car. We’re not buy/lease a new car every three years kinda peeps.

Just a more sober demeanor, slightly more thoughtful answers. I was highly offended by his earlier joking familiarity with the press. He can do that in private if he wants, but the problems are so severe, it is no laughing matter.

thanks!

Neofeudal economics, as selise sez.

Cue up the clips from Monty Python and the Holy Grail…

“‘e must be the king!”
“‘ow do you know?”
“‘e’s the only one with no sh*t all over ‘im!”

Ah. I had noticed that earlier as well.

i do think there is one thing we have not adequately considered in our alternative strategies – and that is the global financial situation. i’ve been wondering for a long time if there weren’t some behind the scenes issues and threats going on. of course there is nothing we can do to take that into account, if it even exists, because no one is going to tell us what is going on.

although i’m sure transparency will be mentioned many more hundreds of times in the coming days.

Harry Reid on

create jobs
help middle class families
every economic indicator say act robustly and quickly.

bills resolved. bills similar (?)
give and take, that’s an understatement
agreement stays faithful to principles outline

expressing admiration and respect for the love of our country, blah, of three brave senators.

more jobs than senate bill
spends less that house bill

Reid presser on cnbc. Compromise creates more jobs than senate but spends less than house.

I owe you a drink.

Breaking Agreement reached on stimulus.

‘elp, ‘elp, we’re being repressed!

And I mean, really.

Pepsi, please! Cheers! :P

you’re more succinct, fer sure.

This is the reason why the powers-that-be have surrounded themselves with fences and gates. Their feudal castles and forts.

exactly. imo, it isn’t just an economic view, it’s a much deeper cultural perspective.

Reid presser: only the “moderates” count.

I owe 2 drinks

Cheers. *pouring*

We need someone to set up a clearing house here at FDL. This is getting too complicated.

we’re not dead yet!

i’m worried about the reserve requirements.

congresscritters congratulating each other for talking to eachother.

Naked longs and shorts.

bloody peasant!

well okay then! *g*

Stimulus Compromise announcement on Cspan 3 now

Well then, we’ve great problems, if we want a Kink.

The Ari$tocracy and the Political A$$e$ are quite be-covered.

Why, I’m not certain they would do well for any but themselves in an honest Republick.

But then, I’m demo-cratically inclined in my anarchy.

Up with the people! Down with tyrants of all stripes (or be-coverments)!

;~D

Bank exec hearing back on cnbc.

Dress code?

That was a financial comment.

Dress code here at FDL is PJs.

collins says it’s important that we have confidence.

lieberman up.

i can’t watch. going to for a walk. hoping someone is watching. catch all you great pups later.

Moving upstairs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

No, in fact, according to them, they really weren’t invited:

Then to have this: http://www.businessandmedia.or…..35318.aspx

Negotiators were slated to meet later in the day. However, since news of a deal was leaked to the media, Price questioned if there were “shady deals” going on.

“It’s curious because Republicans were invited to a meeting they said at 3 o’clock this afternoon,” Price continued. “What this means is there are more shady deals going on behind closed doors — without the public, without Republicans in attendance.”