Krugman spoke at the Thinking Big, Thinking Forward Conference on the economy.
He started by debunking the idea that this isn’t as bad as the 82 recession because the US hasn’t lost as many jobs, first quipping "just wait a couple months" then noting something more important: the 82 recession was caused by the Fed. We knew what caused it and we knew how to end it. It was ugly, but it was something we could fix.
This downturn was caused by factors we still don’t entirely understand, the Fed can’t end it with normal monetary policy because rates can’t go below effective zero and while other policies might work, we don’t know for sure what they are or how to do them.
His fear is that deflation might set in permanently, as people’s expectations of lower prices and wages become set and as a result they keep spending and investing less and less. While we may not know exactly what will work, especially because of the financial component, the best tool in the toolbox to stop deflation remains Keynesian stimulus spending.
The best type of Keynesian stimulus spending is sustained (there must be an expectation that it will continue for some years) and on public goods like infrastructure, education, research and so on. This sort of public spending peaked under Eisenhower.
Since Reagan it’s been at about only 2%, and that has left a huge deficit in public spending, which has shown up in education statistics, collapsing bridges, declining research, lousy broadband and a transportation network which is falling apart. Krugman argued, therefore for multi-year spending on public goods as the primary stimulus method.



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Ian!
I wonder how much influence Krugman has had, directly or otherwise, on the negotiations recently.
so sorry, didn’t you hear? geithner has already promised all available funds to his zombie banker friends.
man I would love the dems to start pointing out that happend because reagan reduced taxes
man I would love that
Digg.
so, we have the swedish model that says the only way out of bank fraud is nationalizing the bank
we have the japanese model that tells us trying to use paper to disguise the fraud will keep us depressed
why isn’t anyone talking about that comparison?
I also want to know why we aren’t talking about nationalizing our money again, WE can make the prime and use that as a revenue source, then we CAN talk about lowering taxes
Heh…from all I’ve been seeing, Krugman is getting as much respect from the Obama Assholes as Glenn Greenwald.
When Krugman (or Roubini) talks, Obama puts up his hand and says, “talk to the hand”.
No. The recession happened because Volcker raised interest rates.
my boss keeps coming at us with new wage decreases, first he remoced days of work, then he removed car allowences, then he removed health care payments
he has hinted at holidays and vacation being removed soon
and what are we to do?
there are no jobs anywhere here.
deflation of wage and let me tell you, if the economy bounces back i guarantee this company will not return these wage decreases…not going to happen
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Most of us who have been listenin’ ta Krugman amd Welsh for awhile understand what Paul is sayin and I think that if things continue ta get worse and Obama hasta go for more and as we get closer and closer ta the midterms, there won’t be anywhere for the fascists ta hide, especially not in the Senate. What I worry about is that Obama won’t be able ta get enough troops outta the field in the Middle East before we start runnin seriously short a cash…this is gunna get ta be a REAL dangerous world, especially if the US and the UN can’t get Israel’s insanity into remission.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER!!!
Marty Feldstein was on cnbc today, saying that monetary policy is now powerless and that the fiscal stimulus was too small, and too oriented toward tax cuts. Sounds like he switched back to Keynesianism just in time. Left the anchors speechless.
but I want to blame reagan so I am sticking to that story anyway
[/snark]
Let’s go back to the Eisenhower era tax rates Reagan always complained about.
If MIley Cyrus stops after making her second movie in a year because of them, won’t we all be better off?
which show was he on?
does Howard Fineman look in the mirror?
I say return the tax code back to the time before reagan redistributed tax burden
then I say get back the trillions of tax gifts bush gave to the wealthy at the expense of our economy
then I say we should be fine
Ian — some of the “debates” Krugman has been having with Chicago School and/or anti-stimulus economists is about whether the government borrowing/spending would crowd out private investment. I understood he was saying, “well, in the long-run, maybe, but this is short term caused by the current GDP gap and the inability of monetary policy to do anything with rates at zero, etc.” In your report, he seems to be saying we need sustained stimulus, albeit in neglected public investment. So is this a different argument — private vs public investment — or the same argument?
It’s your story and you’re sticking to it!
Wait, I thought Howard was growing out his white hair? Did he re-dye it?
(Sorry, Ian, for this critically important OT)
ian – is anyone talking about the usa coordinating stimulus (and banking reorganiation) with other countries?
Sometime early or midafternoon. I was flipping during fin co exec hearing.
It seems clear that the length of the 2001 Bush recession, 40+ months, was exerbated by the Bush Tax Cut, which removed stimulus from the economy.
This would also explain why the recessions have increased in duration from 1980 to the present.
Assuming (a bad word) the rate of increase in the length recessions is exponential, gives a range of 60 to 120 months for the length of this recession.
Have spreadsheet (somewhat crude) that shows this.
I believe the answer is for the government to make loans directly or through government programs like they used to do when I went to college
these loans could be administered by banks for a small fee but it would come directly from the government
that way the banks couldn’t tie down the funds
Whoa — now he tells us! I thought Feldman was still clinging to tax cuts, but the cuts needed to be focused, as in give people credits specifically for buying things – in other words, tax cuts expressly conditioned on spending. Spend it or lose it. That was he way of trying to say, “yes, spending is needed, so if we have to get it through tax cuts, my Republican friends, do it this way.”
he arranged it like this in 2 tone
http://www.divasthesite.com/im….._Gable.jpg
Headline: Save America . . . ?
Back to my cage.
yup and the trillion dollar war
The guys that CAUSED the problem (virtually all of Obama’s economic ”advisors”) are the one’s he listens to. The people that actually KNOW the best way to deal with Obama’s economic team are absolutely ignored.
I’ve ordered my chickens. I’ll have free eggs and food from my garden when it all crashes down as a result of Obama’s myopia.
I agree with that assessment however we give them too much ground when we call them “tax cuts”
they were not tax cuts they were redistribution of tax load
they were given middle class assets and encouraged to stop investing back into their own business, this economy an the country
these were not tax cuts and the democrats need to start pointing that out
people get very defensive about “tax cuts” but they get more defensive about their assets being robbed and that’s what the dems need to learn
bed, c all L8tr
1. No one has ever demonstrated the “crowding out” hypothesis definitively to my knowlege. I think it’s hoey, maybe possibly at full employment. Doesn’t keep a certain group of economists from harping on it when it suits their desires.
2. So no, it’s not a substitute of public for private investment. It’s just plain stimulus, the kind of fiscal spending that is needed (I wrote about the sad state of infrastucture back in the 70s and it’s only gotten worse since), and that will also pay benefits long after the initial jobs.
Keif has Maxine Waters
love her
Yeah, I think he did talk about those kinds of tax cuts too. I forgot. But also govt spending.
What makes you think Obama wants to remove troops from the desert? He is in full thrall of the Pentagon and Betrayus. THEY want to stay and so…we’ll stay. Obama’s already decided to put the drawdown in Iraq on “hold for now” so Obama’s masters in the Pentagon can explain to him how staying is the right way to go.
She speaks truth, and is funny too. Love her description about how these rich men are not accountable to anyone and are used to influenced congress, not being influenced by it.
How to build a coop could make a helpful ox diary.
Now wait one darn minute.
I want to know what some
wingnut deadenders rantreal economists think.Gawd. We are so close to a revolution. The ripped off masses are pissed off. Anyone who believes a single word of any of these lying pieces of scat, is delusional and in denial.
Corporate controlled government..that is what we have…globally. Not only that..we have a bunch of corporately “bankrupt” influences, desperately trying to hang on to their power and their material “stuff”. They are BROKE. The royal families of Europe are BROKE. Everyone is broke, because anything they claim as “worth” anything, isn’t worth “anything”. No one involved intimately with them is immune to their influence. You can bob and weave….but shizzola…
This is the piper coming to collect.
Citizen Praedor:
One word for your asnaysis of Obama’s war plans: BULLSHIT!
Wages down here too. In my case, increased contribution to ins., in hubby’s case down 6 grand when a perk was taken away.
Agree- It’s pretty simple- wood and chicken wire- but there are some details that need to be covered- like how to build it so that all the chicken shit falls OUT.
If I were to do chickens, I have to encase their space in chicken wire (foxes, coyotes, hawks), and even then they wouldn’t necessarily be safe from critters that could get in one way or another.
What Krugman is talking about is also something that Stiglitz has brought up as well. In about 18 months the stimulus, poor and pathetic as it is will be done and we will be back to where we are now except deeper in debt. If we commit to long term spending, especially on infrastructure, we extend the stimulus out into the future and unlike the vapor we get from injections of capital into financial markets we will be getting real physical assets that will remain beyond whenever the stimulus ends.
I wasn’t clear. There seem to be two arguments:
1. Does deficit spending (borrowing) crowd out private investment? Krugman has been saying, “whatever happens in ordinary times, that’s not a concern now.”
2. Even in ordinary times, shouldn’t we have more public investments (for the things private investment doesn’t cover), even if that means it reduces private investments? I agree the answer is yes, relative to where we’ve been for decades.
So my question was, which of these two questions was Krugman addressing when he talked about the needed for “sustained” public investment.
Like ratsnakes (chicken snakes)…
The pens need to be on wheels….That won’t stop the snakes, but it is better for the land…they can freerange along with eating what you feed them.
Merrill Lynch quietly paid out at least one million dollars bonus each to about 700 top executive even when the investment house was bleeding with losses last year, a probe has revealed.
They were part of 3.6 billion dollars in the firm’s bonus payments in December before the announcement of its fourth quarterly losses and takeover by Bank of America, the investigation by the New York state Attorney General’s office showed.
“696 individuals received bonuses of one million dollars or more,” New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said of the Merrill scandal in a letter to a lawmaker heading the House of Representatives financial services committee.
Oh, I don’t know which one Krugman was talking about. Misinterpreted your Q.
Way to much work for a few dozen eggs. I know people who do. Unfortunately they started the brood with an eye to their eating the deer ticks in the lawn, big problem in my area, but they had to fence them in to limit predators.
the I word…onKeif
insolvency/banks
Norsk: NOT bullshit.
First off, the nomenclature is important and setup to totally pull the wool over your eyes.
Betrayus and the generals will simply get Obama to go along with calling all the troops that WILL remain in Iraq (permanently) as “support” troops, not “combat” troops. Ta-da! We stay. We stay with a BUTTLOAD of combat troops that aren’t combat troops living in the (criminally) massive US Embassy paradise.
SOFA or no SOFA, the US under Obama and his successors WILL keep LOTS of troops in Iraq regardless of what Iraq says.
Then there’s Afghanistan where Obama wants to double down and pull a surge in all but name there too. Too little too late, by the way, but we are there until forced out in the very same manner we were forced out of Vietnam…BY LOSING BIGTIME.
I’m hearing on Olbermann that banking-type people are faking contrition cause they don’t really understand how the little people feel.
I wish I could convey to them…but it would get moderated.
love to have some milkgoats
ey didja ever get the buffalow?
That’s becoming more and more common. My ex’s company makes products for — auto companies. They always shut down for a week at Christmas. This year there was an extra day at Thanksgiving, almost a week extra at Christmas. Thre will be another “day off” next month, I think, and of course, all the temporaries have been laid off.
Last week, they were called in and told there would be an across-the-board pay cut of 5%.
Not good, but they haven’t closed the plant. He says there’s no work, all they can do is try to look busy sometimes.
He’s just relieved that he still has a job.
Sooner or later we have to accept, and anckowledge ppubically, that the Generals do things for their careers, and their careers and the country’s interest don’t always coincide.
heheeehehehehhe
been there done that,and ijust mentioned feathers…………g
Wow. Probably a group email to the AEA membership with electronic petition to sign.
Maybe if we all click our heels…oh, no…that would be “magical thinking”…now, magical thinking is assumed to be delusional thinking, because they even use that to make people unfit to testify in court with “tests”…you can be proclaimed insane for that…
Oh yeah, talking to burning bushes, virginal births, the descendents of Christ, or 72 virgins waiting for you..ummm…that’s all okay. No delusion there. But, if you believe that there are angels…Oh wait…ummm…if you believe in auras…oh wait, what was that round thing in the Christ icons?….oh wait…
Reality is. We are being ripped off and screwed by a bunch of people with a BS “story” about what the economy is even based on. But challenging it, even presenting historical evidence, deems you a conspiracy theorist or something like that.
Unf’ingbelievable.
What Buffalo?
I know what you mean…my friend lost all of her young hens…and said she’d never do it again. I don’t know what the solution is….maybe very small wire, so no snakes get in, and a top, etc. How did all those pioneers manage???
Chicken wire is horrible. It doesn’t last long and is flimsy.
Previous owners of our house used to have chickens so the basic infrastructure is still there (half a shed for a chicken house) and the skeleton of a run behind it and the spot where a chicken door used to be still there).
I will be re-wiring the frame for the temporary run and when they are fully acclimated to their new home, I will be letting them roam freely here (5 acres). They can go into the barn, wander the pasture, etc. At night they will be locked into their room safe and sound from the coyotes that live here (and oppossums and raccoons).
I’ve ordered Buckeyes: the ONLY chicken breed developed by a woman back in the 19th century. They are cold hardy, a very rare heritage breed, good for meat AND eggs, friendly, and good mousers.
We don’t get private investment in infrastructure. Roads, dams, bridges, parks, etc. Your first question is moot.
Tax cuts do crowd out infrastructure investment. The 30 years since regan prove that.
Do you get your buckeyes cheep?
Gawd. I had goats. They had babies, and critters at night killed all the babies…I gave them to a guy with hundreds of goats…You have to have a super guard dog, like a Great Pyranees, or a donkey to fight off predators…it all broke my heart to pieces. Never again.
yea and PBS basicaly revealed that 9/11 was an inside job
Does Ian or anyone have a link for a graph for wage stagnation over the last 30 years? I found an old Ian post but there was no link for the graph. I was looking at some BLS stats but they show an anomalous increase I believe toward the end of 2008 that I can’t explain.
I have another nearby neighbor who has a flock of guinea hens that run loose and seem to do OK. Maybe he have enough to survive the predators.
mozzarella
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ZyAHZGw6…..0k/095.JPG
I have another friend who has a couple of sheep. They’re fenced in, but predators could still get in. But I guess they’re big enough to not have many predators. And they don’t do lambs.
teh kewl!!!
I ordered mine from http://www.mypetchicken.com. You can get them sexed, straight run, vaccinated (or not) for Mareks disease (I ordered vaccinated). 6 hens, 1 rooster – day old chicks.
It will cost me about $15.00.
They also sell chicken accessories: coops of various types, brooding boxes, etc.
That’s already part of the plan. Has been pretty much from the get go. The spin was to train Iraki security forces. Such training is usually performed by combat, not support, troops although they carry the label of support troops because of the role they’re fulfilling. “Advisers” in Viet Nam weren’t cooks and clerks.
A lot of talk amongst ex-military and intel folks about us not being able to win in Afghanistan. In order to maintain the appearance as “tough on national security” we will prolly find ourselves bogged down there even more so than Irak. Afghanistan may very well be Obama’s Viet Nam.
thanks
They are really hardy…my neighbor had them…they were really, really, really LOUD. But, somehow they always survived..I don’t know how. Regular hens running loose…not so much…
I love those Rhode Island Reds…they make great pets too!
Oh…Buckeyes also make a distinctive sound beyond basic clucking. Apparently they sound like dinosaurs (whatever that means). They are also a largish chicken.
Maybe Texas has more scary night predators…??? Kinda wild where I live.
I love those Rhode Island Reds…they make great pets too!
pretty too
I’ve seen a large hen intimate a cat no problem…but cayotes…fogettaboutit….
ave fun,and bring on the frittatas
A ratsnake/chickensnake can swallow a hen.
I wont be able to kill and eat them except in special circumstances. If I take care of something – keep it safe, healthy, happy – then there is NO way in hell I’ll do (or allow) any harm to come to them.
This is criminal. These guys should get no help from the feds whatsoever. If they go bankrupt, then let the FDIC do mop-up.
If Merrill Lynch needs help, they can get it from all those execs.
And besides, what on earth do they have that many high paid execs for? Throw the bums out!
Bob in HI
Very perceptive…the military likes having wars. Special Ops guy I know says that’s how you keep combat veterans in the MIC. BO will wear Afghanistan and Pakistan. Can they keep a lid on it?
Let me put it this way. How much per annum is needed for a meaningful sustained economic stimulus program, and what percentage of the US military budget does that represent?
Nor did they give wage increases when times were good I am guessing. Typical double or more pinch (slammed on the way down, and conservative on the way up so no increase).
ANother post mentioned RayGun, my god only time I have heard his name more often in a favorable light is during the Repuke convention. Its almost like his legaacy project people got so fat and rich of his theft that even if a few people talk bad about him the proportionally turn the megaphone up to offset by a factor of 10 or 100.
maybe this report (pdf 232KB) from dean baker? it’s a couple of years old, but i don’t recall seeing anything more recent.
In fact, see this Oxdown diary by ImperialFlow: http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3612/
Did those that just left the WH last month plan and plot this? Seems plausible.
Senator Inouye quote from the announcement about the stimulus agreement this afternoon.
We do not have the luxury of time, we must expeditiously face the facts and pass this legislation. To delay this any further would lead to consquences that could be horendous and if we delay this it could lead to a crisis worse than the great depression. Because today we’re much more than just a nation, we’re a super power. If we go down there will be chaos in this globe.
Here’s the url for Senator Inouye’s (and other’s) statement above.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid…..s.deal.cnn
An electric charge running through a wire that parrells your fence or cages should also help. Home Depot sells a kit that will allow you to install your own for around $50.00. I kept some fence jumping dogs at bay by installing this wire. They smell it or hear it when it is on and won’t cross the barrier. Don’t know how this works with snakes.
Phyllis
Has anyone here thought about the WIR community currency, demurrage, and Bernard Lietaer’s ideas with respect to helping get through this muddled mess?
I am not an economist, but the underlying math makes all kinds of “zeroth order sense” to me.
Comments from the pro economists here?