AP story on this was vague as hell- suggested that the vote was a cloture vote- but also said that the actual vote on the legislation would require 60 votes to avoid filibuster. Someone’s confused and I’m afraid it’s me.

Hope you are wrong about the doom and gloom Ian.

Not to be Pollyana on this but….

…Reps are revealed as obstructionist toads.

…Another bill comes along later–and the Reps get out of the way because the smaller first bill is their fault.

The 61-39 number has to be wrong because we are short a Minnesota Senator.

Should the Krugman number be six million? Or Nancy Pelosi’s 600,000?

61-36 was the vote.

It’s 61-36; I think McCain & someone else didn’t vote.

This vote was to end debate. The final vote will be tomorrow.

Teddy, stop being picky over a few million difference. Geez!!

It was 61 – 36 and Kennedy voted

Judd Gregg?

Tangentially related, this is a must see interview of Roubini and Taleb on cnbc earlier today, not only for what they had to say, but also for the complete fantasy world that the hosts are living in, constantly asking for investment tips from people who are saying the whole economic world is collapsing.

Ian,
Thanks again for helping us keep our eyes on the ball.

Is the current Republican rhetoric based mainly, IIRC, on Milton Friedman’s laissez-faire monetarist theories? ISTM that the public has been so bombarded with Friedman’s talking points that they are now taken for granted– e.g., the phrase “wasteful government spending” is redundant, because government spending is inherently wasteful. Stuff like that has been repeated over and over again for the past 20 years until it has become a popular truism, not needing any evidence because accepted as axiomatic.

How much does economic recovery depend on overturning Milton Friedman’s hold on Republicans?

Bob in HI

It needs 60 votes tomorrow because it increases the deficit. Up or down vote, no filibuster.

I’m completely confused. So, the GOP was allowed to cut the stimulus (jobs) out of the stimulus (jobs) bills? For what, so they can say Obama failed? Is that a victory?

hmmph.

I have yet to read a convincing explanation for Judd Gregg’s “abstention.” Does he not agree with his (potential) future boss’s idea of a stimulus bill? Or is he afraid to cross his Senate GOP colleagues and corporate paymasters and vote for it?

Really, why is the (potential) future Secretary of Commerce opposed to this stimulus bill? Or is he in favor of it?

I bet his Senate colleagues will ask him some rough and tough questions in his confirmation hearings!!

Given that FL’s principle-free rethug governor is gleefully outlining spending plans for his $13 billion cut on national TV and appearing in media spots with Obama singing and dancing about the wonders of stimulotocracy, I think the least he can do is commit to getting Martinez and Nelson, his two senators, in line to support the most aggressive stimulus bill possible. Can’t he threaten to gerrymander ‘em out of existence if they don’t play ball? ;-)

Thanks

So any spending bill requires 60 votes?

Um, that would be true if everyone were in the reality based world, but the repubs are going to screw it up, blame it for not working on the dems, ad nauseum.

poorly constructed, too much spending, not a part of the process, blah blah blah, while the country burns.

thanks for the head’s up. will go watch…

Well you can’t gerrymander senators- two per state- no districts- statewide elections.

Jane has brought this up, and I’ve never heard a real answer. Why is there no Dem call for a “simple up or down vote” as there was when the roles were reversed? Why doesn’t Harry Reid force the Repubs to actually filibuster just once? Let them make a complete spectacle of their irresponsibility. We could pass out violins and togas and spread endless Youtubes of their CSpanned blatherings…

hehe. I meant recut the districts so that both ‘em lose.. Blue Dog Nelson’s seat goes rethug and Martinez’s goes Dem.. or better yet, arrest both of ‘em for tax fraud or somethin’

read this thread (and especially my questions/comments)

Wouldn’t be collegial.

Not sure about that but deficit spending does.

On other sites I’ve been reading a lot of complaints about the chart, with the job losses expressed in absolute numbers. If that bothers anyone, here’s an alternate view, with some discussion of the implications:

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=11480

“It is going to be … ugly.”

Very ugly, and the vicious blaming has yet to start.

Most people cannot begin to imagine just how bad it may become …

It is to be hoped (however audaciously) that more can and will be done.

This ’stimulus’ bill is pathetic, at best, … lacking in heart AND fundamental understanding … it is dangerously insufficient, the product of the timid ‘middle’, which is by no means the actual middle of anything.

This ’society’ is hanging by a thread …

Our primary ‘resource’ now is the people and their capacity to survive.

Grim. Unnecessary. Mean-spirited. and the true measure of our collective sense of community, of our conception of the social ‘contract’ and of our humanity; coupled with our wars and war-like tendencies, we’ve little to look forward to but, to quote Churchill, “Blood (lots of blood and death) sweat (the cold kind) and tears (more than we can imagine). And loss, of opportunity, of possibility, of a humane and decent future.

A new Dark Age, brought to us by the Divine Right of Money. And its attendant greed.

You do understand that American Senators are elected at large from their states, and that they don’t have “districts,” right?

‘course.. but I try not to let facts get in the way of snark.. ’sides, Crist has managed to do some awfully strange things down there, by manipulating turnout (which is effective gerrymandering). Remember the sudden selection relocation of polling locations away from rethug districts, just ’cause he wanted to make some type of perverse point?

There aren’t 600 million people in the US. 600 thousand seems to be what it should read.

Nelson’s name is coming out in the news more and more now that State Farm is no longer gonna write home insurance in FL. Short version – when Nelson was insurance commissioner he made possible the insurance disaster now happening in FL. People are now being reminded of that.

But he was an astronaut!

sounds like they also need to be reminded that he’s been worse on this stimulus bill than even Martinez. He’s approaching Lieberman territory, IMO ;P

Ralph Cramden (Jackie Gleason) on The Honeymooners:

“Pow. Right to the moon.”

Thanks

I needed that!

Boy, the hosts did not want to hear what was being said did they?

Just yer basic DINO.

Well, one good thing….the republicans are now on record NOT FILIBUSTERING which means they most likely understand how badly the bill is now written thanks to themselves….and if it does fail to stimulate it’s because the WATB (whiny ass titty baby) republicans wanted more tax cuts, more spending on the military, and not much in the bill for the states & the people of this country!

Well if you are in a deficit position, I guess EVERY spending bill is a deficit spending bill.

One of the more amazing interviews I’ve seen.

thinking back to past worst person’s in the world on Countdown, I vaguely recollect that one of the rightwing pundits argued last year that the population of the US is, in fact, 600 million.

I guess (just watched it). But what they are saying is not very different from what Krugman is saying. This is looking very bad–depression, here we come! (hoping I’m wrong, but not believing it)

Earth to announcers, Earth to anouncers, come in announcers, is anyone there?

well goddamn

Taleb’s the first person I seen off this site advocating getting rid of every person who was responsible for the problem, not just fin co execs, but those in DC (i.e., Obama’s economic team).

No matter what, Republics stick to their dogma. Consequences be damned.

True, that was refreshing. I guess Krugman hasn’t said that (although he’s for accountability generally).

Oh, BTW, you didn’t find just a tea-insy bit of denial on the part of the anchors?

I don’t think it’s just ideology, though a large part of it is that. It’s also political calculation:

Weaken the stimulus as much as possible
let the “moderates’ vote for it so it passes
watch it fail
watch democratic popularity drop due to the economy
win

Krugman defended Obama’s economic team at great length when Hugh, selise & I pressed him when he was here for a book salon.

But what would he invest in? /s

Krugman’s great, but he knows most of these people personally. They’re his colleagues. It’s hard to say “fire all the bums” when you know them well.

Yes, now that you mention it :-) . What struck me more was their fishing for investment advice….

Especially if he sired a child today.

I missed that. How long ago was it? In any case, he’s not so happy with Obama and Co now.

Yo, Raven.

You and I is lucky.

We ain’t gonna have to live with the worst of the “consequences”, cuz we is prolly gonna shuffle off afore the worst of the shit hits.

Seven generations. We are only guests here, now , and leave a shiot pile for the future.

But I’m certain we will be remembered most kindly.

We is on borrowed time, ole friend, right along with Norske. All of us.

Good to ’see’ ya, you curmudgeon, you.

;~D

Were you part of the book salon full court press on Krugman re his defense of Obama’s team? Sorry if I forgot to mention you.

Will look for the link.

Same as it ever was doncha think? In about 1970 we had a whole tribe that was convinced the shit was coming down and we were preparing. . .

AFAIK, the only Krugman colleague on BOs team is Bernanke. But in any case, Krugman doesn’t strike me as someone who would shrink from criticizing a colleague.

Sen Hutchison was out of town…exchanging insults with our Gov.

December 3.

Thanks, I’ll look!

Incidentally, eCAHNomics, it was also very refreshing to hear someone call for nationalizing the banks on the MSM (and not be shot down for it).

holy shit!!!!

thank you for that link. taleb was awesome – but roubini at the end was the more shocking to me when he agree with taleb a bit. iirc, roubini work for summers for a time (when summers was treas. sec in the clinton administration) and i have not seen roubini do anything but say nice things about him before now.

wow. wow. wow. zombie banks indeed. more like this please!

going to rip the audio so folks on dial up can give it a listen.

Transcript anywhere?

That was for practice.

You think things is gonna be swell?

Or just a little dicey?

I suspeculate that the whole thing is gonna unravel, especially if we Americans decide to kick some Iranian butt.

Hell we might end up going to the wall, old buddy.

Frankly I can’t imagine better company than those who gather here.

But things sure as hell can’t go on as they have been.

The party’s over and reality hasn’t set in yet.

Sorry if that’s a bit grim fer ya, but that’s how I worry that things will go (being as Barack seems comfortable with thangs as he found ‘em despite his soaring rhetoric).

What do you think, Raven?

No need to apologize. I think I’m not smart enough to engage much here.

Balderdash!

You is about as canny a person (and wit) as I’ve ever had the pleasure to meet.

Therefore, it would be most useful to me (and, I suspect, others) if you were to flesh out yer thoughts on these arcane topics,

Seriously, Raven, I appreciate your perspective, and even in our occassional differences of opinion, I learn from you (and even more appreciate the journey you have made. Anyone who works for broad literacy, especially among those who have been denierd the opportunity of acquiring it earlier in life, is “A”, Number One in my book).

DW

Why thanks. I’m in the “don’t worry too much about shit you can’t control” group. I realize the endless debate and “critical” dialog here does help some folks feel like the have some control and impact and more power to them. I’ve written about my grandfather and his 30 years in the coal mines in and my old man in the Pacific for 3 plus years in WWII. Is this going to be worse? Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. Maybe I’m just stuck in time. After Kent State I, and a bunch of other people I knew, were this close to picking up a gun (again). I’m going on gut and I don’t feel near as threatened as I did then.

Thanks, Raven,

In point of fact, my experience relative to Kent State (and my perception of people’s need of feeling some sense of ‘control’)is remarkably close to yours.

The big difference between the experiences of those in the past and those who shall experience a future you and I shall not live to see, is, essentially the loss of a common sensibility among the oppressed, while the commonality among the oppressors is more closely aligned, globally, than heretofore has been the case.

There will always ‘organization men (and women’)who will happily do the bidding of the oppressors, but I really can see how, without a solid manufacturing base, that this nation is more vulnerable than it ever has been before. We produce no wealth to speak of and have been, deliberately, reduced to mere consumers, of goods, of politics, of simple-minded pixie-dust world-views.

You and i are old enough to remember when money was not all that mattered.

A significant number of younger souls have never experienced any other ‘reality’.

A couple of Repigs decided to go on holiday in Iraq…according to a Twitter!

Oops! Thems was two Congressmen…Hoekerstra and Boehner…probably workin’ on their tans.

Funny, though, that the House Minority Leader decided to skip town to Iraq when there will be a vote on the Stimulus reconciliation bill coming up. Doesn’t he think it’s importantto be on the record for something like this?

An actual, on-the-floor filibuster would be entertaining because markets around the world would crash, and panic would spread. Make the bastards do it.