Senate debate on the stimulus bill starts again at noon ET on CSPAN-2 and I’ll be liveblogging here.
After yesterday’s drama, Rahm is fashioning himself the "hero" of the Gang of Fools compromise. Press accounts are full of glowing tributes like this:
White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel attended the final meetings in Reid’s office last night to work out lingering differences. Before Emanuel arrived, Collins said, Democrats were advocating $63 billion in cuts. "Then Rahm got involved, and a much better proposal came forward," she said.
As AP puts it, " the group backed away from a confrontation that threatened to kill the legislation altogether after White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel weighed in to urge Democrats make a final round of concessions." In other words, his idea of "bipartisanship" has always been to beat up Democrats and make them give in to conservative policy objectives that already have strong Republican support. It’s how he operated in the House, how he "gets stuff done." He doesn’t know how to craft policy and win consensus.
And it looks like the war between Pelosi and Rahm heats up:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said the proposed reductions "do violence to what we are trying to do for the future," especially on alternative energy and education, two areas Democrats believe were long neglected under President George W. Bush. "The cuts are very damaging," she told reporters at a House Democratic retreat in Williamsburg.
She also said "Washington seems consumed by this process argument of bipartisanship." I don’t think she meant it as a compliment.
If Rahm wants to brag about being responsible for the bill’s final form, he’s got to own the cuts for $20 billion in school construction, $2 billion for rural broadband, $3.5 billion to make federal buildings more energy efficient and $40 billion in aid to states. And I hope none of the 600,000 newly unemployed were hoping for more health care help from COBRA — $5 billion got slashed out of that, too.
The package would still have to get through conference with the House. Pelosi is apparently the only hope of keeping this bill from being ineffective and regressive.
Liveblog on the flip:
12:10 Kyl: "We have never said that only tax relief will work." The GOP world view seems to be constructed on a foundation of historical revisionism.
He’s also whining that if you’re looking for "bipartisan support," talking about "the tired ideologies of the past" is not the way to do it. In other words, Republicans aren’t interested being the "party of personal responsibility."
Now the states shouldn’t be bailed out because it would only award them for being fiscally irresponsible. (As opposed to the banks, I guess.) And poor people caused the mortgage crisis. It would be better if all the Democrats would just become more bipartisan and give the Republicans everything they’re asking for.
Basically the GOP are using every opportunity they get to hammer the meme Obama is not being "bipartisan." Since this whole bill has been sold as a tribute to process and not out of commitment to specific tangible goals, I imagine it will be successful no matter what concessions they receive.
Kerry: Oh don’t make me laugh, you’re all a bunch of WATBs.
12:31 — Kagro X on the President’s day deadline that has been set for passage of the bill:
You also might very well see the Senate adjourn defensively, leaving the House with the choice to either pass what the Senate gave it, or if it declines and instead insists on changes, "be responsible" for delaying the measure another week by sending it back to a Senate in adjournment.
12:49 — Kerry making the argument for green energy and technology development funds so we can burn coal cleanly.
12:56 — Kyl:
The senator from Massachussets talked about deficits, and in effect blamed the Bush administration. I would just make the facts here, which is that last year under Democrat controlled congress the deficit doubled — it doubled — from what it was when the Republicans were in control of congress, and it will double again this year.
Well he’s right about one thing — he is making the facts. Kerry tries to be recognized but Kyl won’t yield.
12:58 — things are getting testy. Jello Jay to Kyl: "I don’t think you as my friend at counterpart should feel that you need to make a speech after every point that’s made on our side, and I think that’s the tendency now."
1:00 — Kerry — yes deficit doubled — there’s a fucking war on. And we passed a stimulus.
1:02 — Boxer asks if she can speak, but Sessions says "no."
1:07 — Boxer — "they spent it on Iraq — I want to spend it here."
1:15 — CNN — What Got Cut
1:21 — Boxer smacks Lindsey Graham around again for being a big baby and feeling sorry for himself.
1:22 — Mike Johanns: "make no mistake about this legislation — it is the bill with the biggest price tag in the history of our nation, really in the history of the world." I guess he wasn’t in the senate in 2001 for the $1.3 trillion Bush tax cuts. I guess he just didn’t feel like he was a big enough asshole yesterday and is trying to make up for lost time.
1:27 — Nothing "bipartisan." Closed door meetings with only two Republicans present. Threatens filibuster, whining that the Treasury overpaid for bank stocks by $78 billion dollars. Is he going for comedy?
1:32 — Johann’s corn pone tribute to himself as governor where he always had to balance budgets and wouldn’t dream about printing money and handing the bill to the little kiddies not up to speed with the new GOP enthusiam for deficit financed tax cuts that Kyl and others are preaching.
Linda R in the comments: "Senator Johanns has only been here 26 days. He doesn’t know whose fault this is."
1:39 — Amy Klobuchar stole JOBS JOBS JOBS chart from Ben Nelson.
1:44 — John Ensign: Republicans tried to get a strong regulator for Fannie and Freddie but Democrats blocked it. And Hoover caused the depression because he raised taxes. What color is the sky in your world?
Also, it was the Democrats who gave Bush all the money he asked for. Republicans had nothing to do with it.
2:00 — Does Rahm really think telling people that Dave Obey wrote this bill and the Obama people had nothing to do with it makes them look good? I mean, think about it.
2:02 — Tom Udall: The important thing is that several Republicans have stepped forward to work with us on this package — Snowe, Collins and Specter. They understand there’s a crisis and it’s not just another opportunity for a publicity stunt.
Defends Obama’s use of the term "failed ideologies" — eight years of tax cuts for the rich, massive debt. The more confrontational style of former House members probably more appropriate to adequately address the Republican "statesmanship" on display.
2:10 — Jeff Sessions flips out Larry Summers comments from months ago when the economic situation was significantly different to bolster his argument. And refighting the Civil War.
2:35 — Grassley up. States facing a $40 billion slash in rescue funds — thank him for his insistence on the AMT patch! Not like he’s voting for the bill or anything.
2:50 — Grassley: I’ve been the only Republican asking for oversight for years. Wants people to vote for an amendment saying no agency that receives funds from this bill can claim executive privilege and refuse to provide documents to Congress. NOW they want this?
2:53 — Jello Jay extends time to 3:30.
2:54 — Bill Nelson decries "excessive partisanship."
3:04 — Jello Jay says even though they’re rushing it’s been very well thought-through and debated. And John Kyl’s on crack if he thinks the states are in this place because they’ve all managed their finances so poorly.
3:19 — Republican discipline is better than Democratic discipline, which is why "partisanship" never quite works so well for us.
3:25 — Clerk calls the roll.
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That fuck! That has been so important to so many people. Cut his federal benefits off and see how he likes it!
Pelosi has more cojones than Reid right now. I hope she sics the dogs on the Senate during the joint conference committee.
Rahmbama is a what we have now, a center-right presidency where Obama’s oratory attempts to camoflage the reality of an ‘inside the beltway’ presidency.
My respect for Obama has gone down a notch, is he just a light weight or a DLC’er , I don’t know, but he is losing me.
Afternoon Jane
If we are lucky, this will be Rahm’s Last Stand (A pup can dream…)
OK, this is just pathetic. And to put on my tinfoil hat, with HRC at State, she’s not around to fight for stuff like COBRA and child nutrition, etc. I hope that wasn’t by design, but for all his vaunted “savvy” President Obama is being incredibly stupid letting Rahm have so much leeway. The Presidents strong public statements have been good, but much too late, IMO, and letting Rahm do his dirty work of capitulation makes them completely hollow.
Forget the !#$!3 Thuglicans, WTF is WRONG with the Democrats?!
FunnyDiva
I have a good friend who was in a bad accident, almost died, and then lost her job. COBRA was her only available insurance for more than a year. She is working now and is covered again but that helped her get through a tough period.
I was hoping she’d stay in the Senate to do just that sort of thing.
I’m shocked. Shocked! No one could have predicted that Rahm Emmanual would sabotage the progressive portions of the stimulus bill./s
Y’all enjoy the Senate blathering. I’m off to the opera at the movies.
and it’s not as though COBRA coverage is FREE. In my case, it was just an opportunity to pay the same negotiated premium that my former employer used to pay for me.
What a sack of crap.
Jane, how do we get ourselves heard on this? Anything up with AccountabilityNow/StrangeBedfellows? This is government by the rich AGAINST those of us who pay for their top-of-the-line health coverage.
Color me utterly, utterly disgusted with our new president. I can’t believe it’s been less than 3 weeks.
FunnyDiva
This country has no moral center. If f–khead rethugs can rule the day we have NO hope. NO change. Nada.
As has often been the case, I expect Pelosi’s actions will not live up to her rhetoric.
Yay for you! the Met? Hope it’s fun. LMK what it’s like…they do that at my local cinema, too.
FunnyDiva
Sad that Dry Powder Pelosi is our last hope.
Well, you were RIGHT! Prescient, even.
FunnyDiva
Haha. Dry Powder Pelosi.
Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.
Just an observation based on past experience.
question -was rahm emanuel acting for or against obama’s goals and priorties?
And it never occured to me until just now as I wrote that comment.
[head-> keyboard. Rinse, repeat.]
FunnyDiva
When Rahm appeared to be on the fence about whether to accept the COS position, I was sure hoping he would fall on the other side. He is arguably the most detrimental of Obama’s staff choices (to date).
Never thought I would be seeing Pelosi as the conscience of the Dem leadership. Rahm is going to hurt Obama and also the country by his GOP friendly actions.
Look at what Obama does, his specific actions and what he allows, not what he says.
How can you even ask? His biggest boosters have been arguing since November that he’s just so much smarter and strategic thinking than us lowly progressives.
That economist on Rachel’s show Thrusday got it right “I don’t know which possibility scares me more”…that Obama’s been played by the beltway insiders, or that he knows exactly what his Chief of Staff is doing in his name.
FunnyDiva
no argument from me
Single party rule. One party with two wings.
I do not think anyone is claiming that Rahm is not working on behalf of Obama.
Undoubtedly under Obama’s direction.
post-partisan=driving a stake through the heart of progressive causes
Kyl up. Says no one has seen the bill yet. What’s the hold up? This is transparency? Or are they still slipping things in?
Kyl is an idiot. Cut out stimulus for Arizona and watch him sputter.
Time to stop fighting the republicans and start fighting the democrats. Obama has told us all along who he is. We just hoped for a real adult. We got a boy scout giving bj’s behind the bleachers.
i didn’t get the impression you were making a statement about that one way or the other. maybe it just flew over my head? thanks for the clarification though.
Don’t sugarcoat it, what do you really think? :-)
It’s amazing how quickly this stimulus has become a joke. The NYT also has a preview of what is supposed to be in Geithner’s plan to deal with the financial sector.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02…..=1&hp
The main features are a modified bad bank where the government won’t hold the crap but will sell it to investors guaranteeing its value. So taxpayers won’t even end up with the asset but just the debt from it. Even so it seems difficult to see how all the crap can be processed in this fashion. The remaining $350 billion in the TARP is insufficient to the task. This will leave banks where they are now: not lending both because they still won’t tust each other’s solvency and because of the deflation we are beginning to see. Nor will the plan force banks to lend. There are also some noises about helping homeowners but these are vague, incentives for investors to help re-finance loans. Again this sounds like another program to dump debt on taxpayers without changing the fundamentals. This is especially egregious because while the housing bubble burst 18 months ago in August 2007 the financial meltdown hit 5 months ago. Yet homeowners are still waiting for some kind of meaningful relief.
So we are still on track for the following formula:
Bad stimulus + No nationalization = Depression in 18 months, latest.
I’ve watched quite a bit of this debate. Not every second but quite a bit. I’ve yet to see a dem speak (other than Reid and the independent dem). What’s up with that?
He doesn’t care. Remeber, he was an investment banker before he came to Congress. I am sure he made himself barrels full of money.
Spoke to soon. Kerry’s up.
i’m stupid? not enough coffee yet? trying to hold back on the obama criticism?
… don’t know, but i’m going with the coffee thing because that’s one i can correct easily *g*
bi-partisanship /s
Thank goodness for George Will’s self-righting economy theory. I believe it is modeled after the toy boats in his bathtub.
A Stimulus for the Poor
http://www.clih.net is the website I maintain with links to affordable housing sites. The New York Times editor describes the disaster that is occurring for yhe poor, disabled and unemployed. They cannot find housing that they can afford…most of that housing stock has been flipped (remodeled for higher prices and resold.
We had a 6% vacancy rate before Bushco…now it is close to zero. Like mortgages the bar is higher to qualify for. 100 people show for a job application. Obama of all people should insist on including section 8 funding and more for the National Housing Trust Fund.
The anger that these cuts will create…the pain and suffering that it could save has not been evaluated. Please call Pelosi and ask that this be put back in…link to the NYT article. Palpable disgust with Obama for sending this message via his hatchet man Emanuel.
In His first book he describes the work he did with poverty in Chicago…both he and Rahm know all about the nightmare. Obama is ending a message that the disadvantage deserve their woes. He is a complete phony. Then there is Biden rattling sabers again. We been conned…I told you so from the campaign beginning. The worst pssoble news I could have imagined. Change that you can’t believe in…liar liar.
Looking at the stimulus bill, there is 1% spending for each Dem (58%) and
1% (42%) tax cut for each Republican. This is crazy to give the people who caused this crisis; possibly on purpose; this much power over this bill.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/up…..02-06.html
Well, it’s not anticlimactic after Super Bowl week. How ’bout those amendments! They’re feeling each other out, especially the newbies, with wet litmus tape. They’re working the numbers, handicapping the season. I wish I could be there in person!
Um, probably consumers are going back to school now online, on teevee, on radio, on line, etc., and becoming citizens, um, after The Election. Very good.
I’m looking forward to the House-Senate conference reportage, and it’s not as if the other body, the Supreme Court isn’t in the back of everyone’s minds (I think it’s in the front of Arlen Specter’s).
LOL!!!!
Rubber duckies too!!
i’ve said this before and i know i sound like a broken record, but where’s JTB? he was supposed to be, according to Obama, the “point man” on important legislation. he knows these people. he served with them for a long time. shouldn’t he have been the one doing this. on a personal level, i feel nad for JTB if he’s getting marginalized – especially by a prick like Raham
I had the pleasure of seeing my Senator Barbara Boxer speak yesterday. She was very very good. Said many of things I’ve been sitting here thinking for the past week.
The GOP motto: I’ve got mine, fuck you! I wish they would all spontaneously combust on the spot.
You are absolutely right, it’s actions, not words, that matter. That is how I gauged the Bush administration, by the actions that did not support the words, or in most cases, were the exact opposite of the words.
Unfortuanately, I will have to start applying the same measure to the Obama administration. I hope he will begin reconciling the actions with the words, but I am not seeing it at this moment.
WTF! Shep Fairey arrested in Boston:
http://www.wqow.com/global/story.asp?s=9805684
Anybody else smell a strong wiff of AP revenge?
Any reason to think that she won’t be giving Obama her opinion on this and other subjects outside of State’s business ?
“ineffective and regressive.”
this, to me, is an exaggeration and an overreaction. The word “ineffective” presupposes there is some critical amount and type of spending and if that threshold X is not met, there will be no stimulus effect. And that’s not the case here. And I don’t see how tax cuts for the middle class are regressive. They might not be as good a stimulus, but I don’t see how they are “regressive” on the middle class in the way the term is normally used.
i’m having trouble not seeing the current plan as worse than nothing – it looks to me like nothing more than attempting to build off what i thought was a dollar bubble but is fast becoming a t-bill bubble. if that’s right, then then absent some coordinated international action for a controlled correction, i just don’t see how, if that bubble bursts on top of what’s already happening, we’re not going to be in putting ourselves in deeper trouble.
I’m glad your sense of humor/snark detector was functioning in the absence of caffeine! Because my comment could have come across as an attack.
I’m just bitterly disappointed and disillusioned and just plain bitter this morning.
FunnyD
That is a very good question.
Every economist I’ve seen or read said the stimulus was “too small” and that was before the GOP assholes were allowed to render it even more ineffective. I’m not pretending to know economics but I’ve been reading alot of them lately and they all said the stimulus needed to be substantially larger than it was before it was allowed to be slashed by the very same people who got us into this mess to begin with.
Someone above said it well, one party, two wings. We are so fucked.
Wow, that is bizarre. Grafitti?
Sorry but who’s JTB ?
Really…considering that street art is kind of his MO and trademark!
LOOK! SHINY! OMG, DFH with spray paint!
In other news, AP is finally reporting on the peanut/peanut-butter/salmonella fiasco.
FunnyD
I think the T-bill/dollar bubble is more likely to burst as we begin to come out of recession. But it is pretty clear that politicians in Washington don’t have a clue about how to address this mess. Nor are they getting good leadership from Obama on this. Both his political managers (Rahm) and his economic advisers (Summers and Geithner) are fighting the last war.
I saw Barbara Boxer’s put-down of Lindsey Graham on C&L, it was so good! Are Senators allowed to use snark on each other? I would have loved to see her say something like “Remember to curtsy next time after such a good performance, OK Lindsey? Your finishing school teacher would be so proud!”
Biden
Something stinks to high heaven about the whole business. :-(
Joe Biden? I’m guessing. the T is throwing me off…
FunnyDiva
Biden ? He is in Germany giving a speech be back tomorrow.
He is known as a graffiti artist.
JTB – Biden
I’m with you. I’ve read countless articles on economics in the last few months but still don’t feel I understand it completely. So when they all say we need to go big and bold, I take their word for it. Thus, I agree. We are fucked.
Gang of fools is a wonderful phrase.
Ya know,
I’d settle for them just calmly and firmly and consistently and persistently telling the truth and calling the lies exactly what they are. No snark required. Just plain ol’ reality in plain language any American can understand (except Senators, they seem to be a breed apart…)
FunnyD
i agree with you – if we were getting sensible policy now, that’s when traditionally we could expect it. but we’re not, and is it possible if the funds (stimulus, bank bailouts of various kinds) are designed to inflate a bubble and not restructure as you’ve outlined…… could it happen without a real recovery? that, i think, is the nut of what has been causing much of my confusion in try to grasp the broad outlines.
You think Rahm deliberately got him out of town?
I believe Krugman has made that specific critique — if the stimulus is not big enough it will be ineffective.
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb5bXr7Vc2U
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIu4Q-68SVU
And if we’re putting more resources into AMT reduction by taking it out of benefits to the unemployed, I think the net effect is regressive.
You would get an argument on the effectiveness of tax cuts from this small business owner according to his op-ed in the WaPo0 today.
*smacks forehead* … of course, skdadl always refers to him as Joe the Biden.
Thanks all !
To paraphrase Casey Stengle “Can’t anyone here play this game of politics?” Anyone with half a brain knows Obama and the Dems should have gone in with about a $1.5 trillion stimulus bill and not a dime of tax cuts, a la Tom Delay (Take the most right wing proposal as the starting point and negotiate from there), and called it a “jobs bill”. Then let the Rethugs and their media enablers have their hissy fit over “jobs” not a “stimulus” when the jobs reports show shrinking unemployment, just like they did with Obama’s watered down “bipartisan 80 vote” bill. This is the only way to get a good bill out of the mess. The compromise should have been maybe $1 trillion with 20% of the most stimulative tax cuts, similar to Krugman’s recommendations. Of course, these guys can play politics, and count votes. So we can only assume that a bill similar to the one that came out of the process is close to what Obama wanted. In other words Obama is another DLCer with a good speach. We should believe politicians when they tell us what they truly are. Obama has told us repeatedly from his flip flop on FISA, to his economic cabinet appointments, to Panetta’s statements on torture prosecution. More of the same and not so much change we can believe in.
Someone above said it well, one party, two wings. We are so fucked.
This is the type of apocalyptic rhetoric that borders on Naderism.
I don’t see how, for example, a reduction of $20 billion in school construction funding means “we are all fucked.”
Joe Biden is rattling sabers warniong Iran…war mongering. So Hillary has a backer in this…big surprise. That is what Joe Biden is doing the Liarman dance.
I truly wish they would speak plainly, and actually call a lie a lie, instead of using words such as “disingenuous” and all the other weenie words they use. But are they allowed by protocol to call liars ‘Liars’? Sure would be refreshing.
It’s been so effective that so many of them are going out of business or bankrupt.
Ya isn’t Joe Biden heading some Middle Class economic task force?
All the crap that Collins & Nelson should have that task force swooping down on the senate and demanding they get put back in…….
Rachel was amazing last night, calling “Bull Puckey” on the Repug talking points, one at a time, including the one about Food Stamps, which actually has the highest return of any stimulus idea.
obama is not an economist and i can’t find much evidence he’s done much (any?) independent thinking on the matter (that would require getting a real diversity of views). imo he is getting very, very bad advice from people like summers and sunstein.
Kerry on electric cars: “… for most Americans the daily commute is 40 miles a day”. Really?
Some people agree with that assessment…
The starting point was already too low to be effective. So, if this doesn’t work, we’re looking at hell.
actually no, he’s at an important security conference
When you start adding all of the cuts up together then, yes, we are getting screwed.
I work for a school district is California, the fact that more schools can’t be built when existing schools are impacted means you are left with class sizes of 30-40 students. Have you been in a classroom lately?
We are all fucked when school construction takes a back seat to tax cuts. It is the global concept of a healthy society taking care of the most important needs first that should be pushed. Health, education, and welfare of the citizens is THE most important function of a culture/government. Everything else should line up behind that. The one party system we have now has it exactly backwards.
The GOP motto: I’ve got mine, fuck you! I wish they would all spontaneously combust on the spot.
Did Boxer say that? Good for her.
which is why I was so supprised on Thursday when she let the blonde spokes-journalist from The Hill repeat stupid crap from the Nelson/Collins hack’n’slash, about “not really stimulus”, without challenging her. I actually had to turn off _Rachel_ I was so disgusted.
FunnyD
So, if this doesn’t work, we’re looking at hell.
Oh please. Has it ever occurred to you that Congress can go back at anytime in 2009 and add more funding for public works projects and other types of stimulus?
This seems to have slid by unnoticed by most news sources. Senator Coburn of Oklahoma added an amendment to the stimulus bill that “would mandate that no stimulus funding be used for ‘any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, swimming pool, stadium, community park, museum, theater, art center, and highway beautification project.’”
Some of these things are very important in driving many local economies. In Connecticut, the south-eastern area has the Mystic Aquarium and the Mystic Seaport, and both bring in millions of tourist dollars. They were there long before the Indian Casinos arrived. How stupid is this amendment? Oklahoma really must be a very dull state.
oldswede
Source: http://senatus.wordpress.com/2…..amendment/
I think it’s:
JTP = Joe the Plumber
JTB = Joe the Biden
JTP = Joe the Plumber’s Butt
Lol… No those words were mine. She was very good though. Called them on their bull. Said their theatrics were hysterical in light of the fact they passed bills larger than that under bushco with nary a peep about it
And he’s deliberately marginalized and disregarded the non-beltway-insiders who have been right all along and could be giving him much better advice. You know, all us progressives who supported his campaign?
How hard is it to pay some attention to someone like, oh, I don’t know, Paul Krugman–I mean, the Nobel Prize committee could find him and bring him to the world’s attention, it’s not like he’s some obscure blogger!
Feh!
FunnyDiva
I remember when the boomers weren’t having as many children and they tore down schools in my area. I wondered at the time if anyone was thinking logically – guess not.
Does it not occur to you that the need is now?
and how’s that working out for us?
Yeah, and the pukes are going to just roll over and give it to them, that’s why they just cut funding out of the bill….
OK, I’ll give you that. But my bet is that either you still have your job or your retired with a nice income. I’m not sure that those who’ve already gotten pink slips can wait much longer.
It ain’t workin’ at all.
Exactly! He has the same attitude I see from Congress, “I have mine, fuck you.”
LOL … Mary !
I read about your good news, it must be a great relief to all of you. It was certainly gratifying to hear this.
I’m not giving him anything on this. With all this “eek, eek, wasteful, wasteful” crap from the RightWing, the well is now pretty thoroughly poisoned.
Has it never occured to him that it will be more difficult and more expensive to get this right sometime later in 2009? WTF is he smoking? When in the last 10 years has congress EVER gone back and actually fixed a crappy piece of legislation after the fact?
Well…silver lining: we’ve all been wishing for a better class of troll…
FunnyD
Next time you drive by a homeless person give them Obama’s phone number.
When the bombimg starts in Iran thank Rahm, Barack, Hillary, Biden, Liarman and AIPAC.
Peace?
Poverty?
The Obama administration…Panetta we will not prosecute torturers!
1.What the fuck is progressive about this White House?
2.What is liberal about this white house.
3.What Democrat values does this white house support.
Look at the $160 billion Bush tax refund. It has been estimated that for each dollar spent on it there was about 30 cents in stimulative effect. In terms of its effects on the economy it was barely a blip and didn’t keep the NBER from making its recession determination.
This goes to both the issues of size and structure for a stimulus. It needs to be geared much more toward spending (pure stimulus) and it needs to be much larger than the Bush program, both because the Bush refund had so little effect and because the economy has gotten much, much worse since. I haven’t tried to itemize to calculate an exact size for a stimulus but it is important to realize that shortfalls in state budgets alone will be around $350 billion this year. Take this as a base number and start adding in other spending and it is easy to see how we could get to a number in the $600 to $700 billion range. This is actually higher than my original calls for a stimulus in the $500 to $600 billion area. And just so we’re clear this is a per year number. Obama’s stimulus is pumped up in size because it is a figure for 2 years. So looking at it even if it comes out to $900 billion (high end est.), this is around $450 billion a year and 40% of that is in relatively unproductive tax cuts. So about $180 billion of that is likely to have only about $60 to $70 billion in stimulus effect. Ballparking it the Obama stimulus is about half what we need.
Taking into account the Summers-Geithner commitment to contnuing the policies of Paulson and Bernanke in terms of bailing out banks, you can see why the chances of depression are so high.
Thanks!
Beauregard, sit down and be quiet.
That was my point with my comment “to his economic cabinet appointments” referring to Summers and Geithner. Assuming Obama does not know a lot about economics, which is not much of a defense, then it is obligation to surround himself with people who do, not these folks who helped us get here.If Obama is relying on these folks, this is where they and Obama indirectly, want to be. OTOH, if Obama does know a lot of economics, coming from U of Chicago perhaps he has a little of that M. Friedman economics school in him, then this is about where Obama wanted to be regardless of his appointments. Either way it does not say much for Obama and change we can believe in.
Does every Repub Senator sound like Mayor Quimby ? (rhetorical)
Shlock Doctrine – stimulus package
*snicker*
How are the political conditions going to change between now and then so that we can do later what we can’t do now? The only thing I can think of is if economic conditions are substantially worse, but I don’t think that bolsters your argument.
i agree – but the thing is, as far as i can tell there is not unanimity among progressive economists about what should be done. so krugman can represent his own views but not galbraith’s. i’ve been thinking why this is. maybe is that when conventional wisdom in a profession is so very very wrong (neoliberal, washington consensus or whatever you want to call it) it is only people who are independent thinkers who have a chance to see through the current ideology. so what do we end up with? whatever it is, it’s not an alternative world view consensus that is cohesive enough to provide a political alternative to the status quo. at least not until the there is more crashing and burning and the summers of the world are willing to take other ideas seriously.
or maybe not… just thinking “out loud”
Hey, Mary, guess I missed it. Whatever it is, I’m glad it’s good news!
XXOO
FunnyDiva
We are all fucked when school construction takes a back seat to tax cuts.
This happens all the time in city and town budgets. There is nothing novel about educational needs being balanced against other needs.
Thank you for saying that..it covers it without the painful details. So it is worth repeating…
” We are all fucked when school construction takes a back seat to tax cuts. It is the global concept of a healthy society taking care of the most important needs first that should be pushed. Health, education, and welfare of the citizens is THE most important function of a culture/government. Everything else should line up behind that. The one party system we have now has it exactly backwards.” marymccurnin @ 86
This is probably wishfull thinking but once this is passed in the Senate can’t they fix it in conference? Do the rules allow a filibuster on the bill when it returns from conference?
even if there’s not unanimity among progressive economists, Obama has chosen to surround himself with the same old people and ideas that “missed” the problem, at best, and actively driven us here in the first place. He’s not even LOOKING for other voices/ideas. Krugman’s not the be-all and end-all, but Obama should be STARTING somewhere–and somewhere besides Paulson/Bernanke/Summers/Geitner.
That’s my point: He’s as blinkered and blinded a DC establishment insider as all the rest. And I was so hoping he wouldn’t be.
I so wanted to believe.
FunnyDiva
Boxer’s visual aids are very big & YouTube ready!
Senator Boxer giving a great outline, which makes the Repubs look like the creeps they are.
Of course, to many of the Repubs, this is a good thing.
yeah and that won’t cut it if we aren’t in a normal recession and are instead in a process of state changes. by this i mean that before stepping off the cliff, a step back can make a big difference. no so, however, once we’ve stepped over the edge and are on our way down.
GO Boxer,
at least we have one in the Senate.
agree completely.
just wanted to make the point that adding one or even two progressives to the mix may not cut it at this point.
i’m pretty sure it doesn’t have to conference unless both houses agree.
The dollar is toast – and why the stimulus is wrong – without coming at it from a RW POV.
You’re absolutely right. There’s nothing “novel,” nothing “new” about what’s happening.
In other words, it’s not “change.”
No, you’re right. But it’s that he’s not even TRYING, not even LOOKING outside The Village that’s got me so infuriated.
FunnyDiva
Toto, we’re not in Camelot anymore!
“Arbiet Machen zie frie”. Watch for more voluteer work programs to emerge. If you can’t get “public works” projects passed what will they ask the unemployed and homeless to do. Slave labor is a Village value…Obama and Biden is a village guys. Obama orgnized vols on the South Side ghettos.
According to a posting at DailyKos, when a bill comes out of conference it requires 60 votes for adoption. No filibustering needed.
oldswede
See: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..155/694466
Educational needs being balanced against other needs.
such as…..
Building more prisons perhaps. Ask California how that is working. When you fail to put the money in education you pay for it massively in many other ways. Education is the way. We have ignored it at our own peril.
Nope, we’ve all been living with this amazingly dismal economic climate ever since, what, the late 1920’s. Nothing to see here, folks. Same old economy, same old talking points, same old failures. But it’s nothing new, so why do you even notice?
What’s the economic equivalent of having a “Pre-9/11 mindset”?
FunnyDiva
Well Done Senator Boxer ! Repudiates McCain for rehashing his failed election campaign platform.
Obama IS the DC establishment.
Worshiping at the shrines of St Ronnie of Ray-gunz, St Milton of Friedman, and St Ayn of Rand.
thanks, i’ve been looking for some not batshit crazy contrarian views.
Because the idiot dems agreed to do it that way, instead of making those idiots come to the floor and give speaches and actually stand for what they are constantly blathering on about.
Look at the graph that Jane put up yesterday the graph id almost vertically downward a very severe trajectory for the economy.
mental midgets.
[Previous reply reference wrong poster]
According to a posting at DailyKos, when a bill comes out of conference it requires 60 votes for adoption. No filibustering needed.
oldswede
See: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..155/694466
Yep. I’ve been conned and now I feel foolish, which makes me angry. Never mind that there wasn’t a viable alternative from outside the DC establishment.
FunnyD
This dude from Nebraska makes me wanna take a nap. Same ol’ Rethug bullshit.
Me, too. We all needed to have a reason to get up in the morning. Obama gave it to us.
And surrounding yourself with advisors that either are or are afraid of such acolytes.
Feh.
FunnyDiva
I have met to many con maen to ever believe in rhetoric..it is the indicator of the comimg reality. We asked Obama over and over to define his platitudes… he never has a plan…he still does not…beyond telling us what we already know…the economy is in freefall and the the lower economic sector take the hardest hits. As Greenwald said last night until the mass demonstrations occur don’t expect the Villagers or their press to move.
Thanks, bro
esp for the reminder to go watch Greenwald on Moyers…
FunnyD
who could’ve predicted I’d be such a naif after over 4 decades?!
Who’s making Johanns define and describe the process? He doesn’t sound like he’s being truthful, like he doesn’t believe what he’s reading. He licks flop sweat off his lip.
i’m pretty sure that’s not so – not after conference, but before. this is the new bit to me:
Yep, that “in the streets” schtick from Glenzilla is quite the turnaround for him.
thanks.
Senator Johanns has only been here 26 days. He doesn’t know whose fault this is.
o.m.g.
I thought you had to be, like, 30-something to be a senator. How could his mother wean him this early! My god, he must have campaigned from the womb!
FunnyD
hugh’s up: Obama’s Announces a New Economic Board and Other Jokes
You gave your trust to someone who is betraying you. Not your bad. AS Rooseveldt said if you want it you will have to push me to get it. What we need now is a new deal.
Thanks Jane.
digg
So Obama is following Rahm’s lead into the dustbin of historical failures.
i had some interesting back and forths with him prior to the 2006 elections – he was saying that everyone had to work to elect Ds and i was trying to tell him not to say that because i knew lots of people who’d already given up on the Ds and were doing non electoral politics and that it was all important. wish i could have gone to boston today, it would have been nice to hear his address to our local aclu, etc.
Maybe he feels golf courses shouldn’t be taxed and rather see the money taken from the kids. This dude could be a state legislator in Arizona.
Ensign (Shill-NV) with the “it’s the govt’s fault for making the banks loan money to poor black people” whine.
With a couple articles in the local rag lately we might get a little attention tonight at BayWalk. Glenzilla, we knew what we were talking about.
Out there freezin’ my ass off for these fools. *g*
Not talkin’ about Glenzilla.
excellent! glenn is a very smart guy and not afraid to change his mind. good thing he’s on our side *g*
Selise, further down in that DailyKos posting it reads:
“Just as the bill was subject to a budget point of order in the Senate, so will the conference report be. So the Senate will need 60 votes, filibuster or no, to pass any conference report. That, too, will increase pressure on the House to defer to the Senate position.”
oldswede
Orginal source: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..155/694466
Ensign, you dipshit. Tax revenue didn’t increase because of the cut in tax rates. It rose because the tax paying workforce increased.
Hey, Ensign, polish a turd it’s still a turd.
thank you very much for the correction. my mistake and i’m glad to know it.
Awwww, ya mean if I sprinkle this sugar on this shitpile, it DOESN’T become candy?
FunnyDiva
So Obama is following Rahm’s lead into the dustbin of historical failures.
So is Bill Clinton a complete failure and in the dustbin of history? He made as many or more ‘compromises’ as Obama.
Gotta go feed the strays at work and make a run to the natural foods store. Later.
Namaste
Blue America a couple of flights upstairs with guest Speaker Terie Norelli, Speaker of the New Hampshire House of Representatives
obama’s a teenager. and teenagers like to be popular while their egos develop. he wants to be liked. that works for an election campaign. Now he’s playing to whoever’s in the room IMO, looking for approval. It’s one of those grow up without a good dad syndromes … god not again!
why i voted for the guy who always tells the truth …. ralph.
interesting. and that’s the darkest secret the banks don’t want exposed. you cannot build an economy on debt when there’s nothing else holding it up. that guy is right.
Absolutely 100% correct. Obie talks the the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. Smoke and mirrors is all he delivers. His entire entourage is nothing more than a Status Quo Protection Team. It takes public outrage and a percieved loss of votes to get him to act,and then its nothing more than window dressing.
“Rahmbama is a what we have now, a center-right presidency where Obama’s oratory attempts to camoflage the reality of an ‘inside the beltway’ presidency.”
“Health, education, and welfare of the citizens is THE most important function of a culture/government.”
One of the most succinct and exact descriptions of what I believe in I’ve ever seen.
I bow to your wow. That was beautiful and should be stapled to the forehead of every Pub asshat in the nation.
It’s so simply spot on that it resonates, radiates and glows like the lights of our souls. Those words are golden in t heir sheen. I’m incredibly moved by them.
Thank you.