Uh-oh. I’m not sure, having listened to some of the “debate,” otherwise known as “idiot REpublicans spewing stupid talking points,” this afternoon, that that’s a good thing.
Those supposed “centrists,” or “moderates,” [spits] have me worried.

We’ll see.

Like you said earlier Jane. We will get nothing, and like it.

They need a good dose of Krugman in their faces, STAT!

Until I see the big doings with Obama signing this sucker into law…..I do not believe anything.

WHO is on the conference committee that fixes the bill?

If that thing is full of tax cuts, we need to hit the phones yet again. Maybe some demonstrating – instead of the federal building, maybe milling about w/ signs (and of course, pitchforks and torches) in front of the tv news stations would get some coverage.

reid had the votes before he didn’t have the votes…

keyword: tentative.

CBS News reporting that education was an area that suffered the most from this “deal”.

And the dealmakers include FDL’s favorites such as Joe Lieberman and Arlen Specter.

i hate bipartisanship if it means we’re going to get a lieberman / mccain bill.

didn’t they lose some important elections?

governance by zombies.

Jane thanks for the update.

Left you a comment at the end of your last post.

[self moderating to avoid being banned for describing what I would like to see happen to folks like Nelson/Lieberman?Collins/et al for thinking it gains them anything but opprobrium for cutting education and health care]

Voinovich’s departure left four Republican senators involved in the negotiations, and Democratic leaders will need at least two or three GOP votes to pass the bill.

from the CNN story which also states the big cuts in education. nice.

If this does pass and goes back to conference can some of this be added back in?

Is Obama’s Indiana trip aimed at peeling Dick Lugar off, or ensuring Evan Bayh’s vote?

Darknine, You were right and I was wrong about the salary cap – at least on the face of it.

I wonder how all you rich people on here have the time to actually be on here so often. I only assume you must be rich because you seem to know so much about the economy and how bad tax cuts are and what really should be done.
I also assume that history was not a great factor in your decision making. Look at Japan, many countries in Europe, India, China, Korean. Take many factors into account and understand what drives the world, how wealth is created, the opportunities allowed in relation to government involvement in peoples lives, and advances made in relation to land size and population.

Did they keep all the tax cuts, tho? That’s what I’m concerned about. That, of course, won’t help the millions who don’t have jobs………but, who cares about them?

PS: Pelosi isn’t happy Pelosi Calls Cuts to Stimulus Bill ‘Very Damaging’
I’m with her, baby

Yup

WTF?

Troll somewhere else, please!

I just hope that if this bill passes that our Democrats at least got some commitments from the “self-important moderates” that they would support a later bill that will restore what they just took out of this bill.

do you really think that there won’t be other spending bills??? this is strictly for stimulus, the spending will come later.

The promises of Lieberman and his acolytes Collins and Nelson? Surely you jest.

FUCK REPUBLICANS!!!! VOTE THE SON OF A BITCH DOWN!!!! LET US CHOOSE SIDES NOW. FUCK REPBULICANS AND BLUE DOG ASSHOLES!!!

Spending is stimulus.

Tweety reporting on Shuster that Reid trying to convince his caucus to accept 90% of what they want. May be losing support on the left, due to cuts in education and health.

Sorry I didn’t mean to interrupt your bash fest. I didn’t mean to encourage education and learning to you. I apologize that was wrong you can just go on what you read and regurgitate. again so sorry.

Go America!!

you do agree with that right?!?

lol. Yeah, I see your point. lol

Tweety says this bill isn’t just “truckloads of liberal spending legislation. Some of it is really needed.”

Our national discourse is broken.

Hose state aid, keep the AMT more-or-less like it was, and take out stuff that helps folks with lower skills get jobs. In other words, screw the poor and the middle class. Why am I not surprised at this?

What is the difference between spending and stimulus oh lord of the right wing response machine? Spending IS stimulus, even when the jobs being spent for are not those you find compatible.

And for the record this “rich person” has time to spend at FDL every day since I’ve been out of work in der glorious BushCo economy since ‘04. The only positive is that I got to actually spend my 401k and SEP/IRA on myself rather than watch the money swirl down the toilet these last few months.

Spending = stimulus.

Economics 101. Go back and take it.

I didn’t mean to encourage education and learning to you.

That was obvious.

stimulus is giving more money to the people to stimulate the economy, help it grow. The government spending money it doesn’t have isn’t the wisest choice to begin with. That is why we got into trouble to begin with. The government becoming even more indebted to its people by funneling money from the private sector in order to spend it where it sees fit is wasteful and shameful so disguise as a stimulus.

Well, this certainly represents a change from the bad old days, when this time of the week was reserved for Due Diligence for Friday evening news dumps of otherwise embarrassing information the Bushbots didn’t want us to notice.

But what is this package? Is it a thumb in the eye to Reid and Obama? Does it have the chance to usurp the Reid-Obama package?

Bob in HI

Huh — I guess that they gotta make Russ and Bernie happy, too to get to “58.”

You obviously don’t know what your’e talking about and I don’t have the time nor the inclination to educate you.

stimulus is giving more money to the people to stimulate the economy, help it grow. The government spending money it doesn’t have isn’t the wisest choice to begin with. That is why we got into trouble to begin with. The government becoming even more indebted to its people by funneling money from the private sector in order to spend it where it sees fit is wasteful and shameful so disguise as a stimulus.

Since you know so much, why not enlighten us poor uneducated slobs with your infinite wisdom?

While I agree that it’s wrong to label disagreement as trolling, calling what you wrote “education” is just as nonsensical.

The stuff that Republicans are objecting to will provide economic stimulus. Primary effect of that spending will be to create jobs. In some cases, that’s for the low-skills workers who can do things like clear trails. In others, such as the rollback of the AMT changes, it was benefiting the middle class. The aid to states was intended to make unemployment and health programs continue. This is the stuff these jackasses are cutting out.

Let me repeat this slowly so you understand it: The problem with our economy is that we aren’t spending. We aren’t spending because people are losing jobs in record numbers. The people who still have jobs are worried that they won’t, so they’re not spending either. There is plenty of capital; the banks aren’t lending it, even though we just gave them a buttload more money.

In short, this depression won’t be prevented by giving more money to the people who already have lots of it. It’s going to be cured by giving more to the people who don’t. In the process of doing that, much that will benefit America will get done.

The Senate reached a compromise on the stimulus bill, I see. Price tag: $780 billion. What a bargain, as in a fire sale bargain.

But my question is: Where’d the $157,000,000,000 go? What got cut and how many of us did the Democratic Party sell up the Potomac River in order to suck 2 votes out of the GOP?

Tweety says they’re waiting for Nelson and Collins to give a press conference. Get your barf bags ready. I just hope holy Joe isn’t with them.

Would it make any sense to cut things out of the stimulus that you know you can get later?
Could that explain what they are proposing cutting the education money?
Just trying to make sense out of nonsense.

Obviously, I’m a mindless drone listening to the media and Obama himself tell me to fear for everything I have. We must pass this bill so we can spend $600 million for new government cars, the list goes on. Yes that is spending, the government buys cars, creates jobs???? saves jobs???? sure but that type of spending only lasts as long as the money is there to do these projects and buy these things. Tax cuts allows businesses and people get more from their investments and give them an incentive to make investments which truly creates jobs. Look deeper, look ahead when going through your thought process.

What I can’t figure — I get this was a big bill, but they always let a “vote trade” go on when Senators are sick, like Tim Johnson. Why are they making Kennedy show up?

Best guess on what got cut: kids, health care, education, cyber stuff, AMT fix, other working and middle class benefits.

Best guess on what spending got added: defense.

Thank the Republic for giving us leaders like Susan Collins and Ben Nelson!

Maybe he is coming to object to the “haircut!”

Obviously, I’m a mindless drone

You are only one of many that visit here.

First of all you don’t know didly squat about economics and if you got your head out of Reagan’s butt then maybe you might learn how the real world works…..

And to imply that just because we hang out here we must be rich….. for me on day 26 of a 28 day cycle of CHEMO for kidney cancer that spread to my lungs and living on 60% of my income on disability…… AND paying $4500 out of pocket medical expenses for last year AND the same will be true for this year…… Ya I am rich because I have family, friends AND my FDL family

Would it make any sense to cut things out of the stimulus that you know you can get later?

The problem is that the Stimulus package gets a free pass on the budget balancing score, IIRC. Any separate legislation would have to be revenue-neutral, so would have extra hurdles to overcome.

Bob in HI

If this is the final bill that goes through, let’s all have an “enjoy your Depression” party.

Do you consider $21K net per annum rich, troll?

Most obvious conclusion is that they’re one vote away from cloture.

You just don’t know what you’re talking about, unfortunately. We have repeated experience showing that tax cuts create less jobs than spending. End of story.

i’ve got an idea – if mccain and lieberman = bipartisan (a R and a I) why not feingold and sanders (a D and a I)?

exactly. a no show has the same effect as a no vote. and some one is being an asshole. hmmm…. i wonder who it could be, there are so many possibilies.

conclusioninference

Still, if I were Harry Reid I wouldn’t be dragging him out of whatever medical thing he has going for anything less.

The republicans proposed a bill with $430 billion in tax cuts. $180 billion in infrastructure and something like $80 billion for extending unemployment benefits and another $80 billion for the states. Short to the point that all this needs. This would help a lot, unemployment benefits, infrastructure, state funding, that is all stuff that is agreed is necessary. A great deal of the other stuff is pork for this specific package.

After watering down the bill they have a package that most progressive economists say is far too little given the dire straits of the economy. Had to make the Republicans happy, however. When hungry Republicans come looking to steal food out of my Depression garden they’ll be met with buckshot.

Strictly on a party line basis, Dems are three short right now. Kennedy showing up makes two. Lieberman could make that three again, I suppose …

if that happens, i expect on the human suffering scale it will be a far greater disaster than the iraq war (in terms of number of dead and displaced).

is there any hope of you telling me i’m wrong about that?

Love you, Katy.

What I do not understand is why the senate can’t have teleconference on these votes, why do they have to be there in person. Here you have Kennedy who might be undergoing chemo or radiation and needs to be at home close to medical care, why can’t they set up a line where he does his vote even with video even record it?

MSNBC says they have “about three” Republicans.

Aha. Could be an attempt to force GOP leadership’s hand:

Remember, though, that unanimous consent is necessary to get anything done in the Senate, so Republican leaders would have to sign off before the economic recovery plan could come to a final vote. GOPers have adopted a slightly fatalist approach to the stimulus debate from the beginning — as one conservative sighed last night, ultimate passage is “pretty much a foregone conclusion” — but that doesn’t meant that Republicans wouldn’t try to slow things down tonight if they see a political upside.

Fox has McConnell saying he won’t vote tonight.

Aren’t you looking for Powerline?

Education is pork?

I suppose we can look at it as karma. For all the suffering the American people have inflicted on the Iraqi’s perhaps it’s now time for Americans to suffer. Unfortunatley it won’t be the rich and wealthy of both parties who are trully deserving of their own special place in Hell.

and I appreciate it everyday too…..

you know, the dems could have and probably still could just rewrite the rule 22 (iirc, the rule for filibusters) to make the number for cloture 55. or they could include a requirement that preventing cloture required some kind of old fashion stand up and talk filibuster (which i like because it would be a chance to show with visuals how the Rs were obstructing the people’s business).

it only takes a simple majority to write the senate rules. no nuclear option required.

And would that be happening at all if Norm F’ing Coleman and his blithering idiot posse were not trying to hijack the MN Senate seat, ergo no Franken vote. Bastards!!

Why did Voinovich drop out, anyone know?

LOL

If just a fraction of the love and white light that is sent everyday from the FDL pups to you, if that was sent to DC, who knows what could happen.

Sarcasm… Sorry I didn’t make it more obvious. I empathize with your situation and you are right you are rich because of your friends and family. However having the entrepreneur spirit and using the benefits that capitalism shares with all of us has been great to me because I meticulously strive to do better for my future and that is what Reagan seemed to envision. I’m just a young sprout (23) though so what do I know.

The tax cuts were completely different in nature, so there’s no comparison. Throw them out, because we don’t need more capital. We need more spending. That’s the wrongheadedness I was referring to.

More infrastructure? Hogwash. The Republicans voted down a much more modest increase in infrastructure spending ($25 billion). If they wanted more, they could have proposed it. Nothing they’re objecting to comes remotely close to the $150 billion difference in infrastructure spending.

By what measure is $80 billion all that the states need? By any reasonable measure, they need several times that. That’s the level of budget shortfall they’ve had to address.

The more specific you get, the less you’ll make sense, I’m afraid.

ah, they (the Rs) could force a cloture vote which even if they lost would then go to the 3 day period of debate, iirc – i’m going to have to go look at my filibuster notes from dec 2007 (the dec 17 dodd action on fisa telcom immunity).

You know a lot and you say it respectfully. That makes you light years ahead of some of your peers and also your elders.

I wish they would. Nothing good’s ever come of it.

I think sad4america’s problem, like that of most Republicans, is that s/he either doesn’t understand or disagrees with the idea of an economic stimulus as a way out of this economic black hole. What we’re seeing is a catastrophic collapse of demand, and almost every economist this side of Ayn Rand agrees that massive government spending is the only way to avoid catastrophe. And Republicans have been carefully taught that all spending is *BAD* and to be strictly avoided, at all costs, ever since Reagan, whose deeds did not match his words. Another Reagan myth is that the answer to every economic problem is tax cuts. Those myths are what has brought us to the edge of the abyss.

Such delusional people are more to be pitied than scolded. The scolding only reinforces their preconceptions about liberals being bereft of principles and substituting cuss words in place of rational thought.

Bob in HI

again sarcasm, but you can do a lot on $21,000. using money wisely can do great things for many people. I guess you can’t buy a new car right now but life isn’t fair. you can make the best of it and down the road even with $21,000/yr that you can living quite comfortably

Andrea Mitchell now says that Barack Obama and Rahm Emanuel have learned a lesson here.

Fox has McConnell saying he won’t vote tonight.

Needs more time to figure out how to obstruct some more, and given that is the only talent the Repugs ever evidenced, I’m guessing Mitch will come up with something (mah dog died and ah gotta go to the funeral).

I recommend Will Bunch’s new book “Tear down that myth” about the PR story book story about Reagan…..

for some of us who have been in the workforce for 36 years (ya I am THAT old) and been laid off three times (in 18 months), on my third profession which came with college education AND grew up with Reagan from HS, it is all myth.

Start reading some economists like Ian and Krugman and throw the Tom Friedman crap away. Take some Econ 101 classes and understand the flow of money and that when money is pushed down the the lowest income earners jobs are created up the scale…..

David Vitter wants to alternate positions on the amendment, speaker-wise.

this was from progressive states network on 1/29, i have no idea if it has changed (for the worse) since then: Economic Recovery Plan will Cover Less Than Half of Projected State Deficits

Sorry I keep missing comments on this. Hope things are going well.

Oh, shit, Lindsay Graham looks happy.

Nelson and friends were trying to zero-out NSF. Any idea whether they succeeded?

Vitter talking about digesting the proposal over the weekend.

This will kill Monday’s markets.

barbara, you need your dose of ipecac.

Wow, Ben Nelson stopped dying his hair, or at least went into the Silver Fox section of Just For Men.

Yep, the stimulus bill on the floor offers twice what the Republican version does that sad4america is crowing about, and it’s still half what’s needed, maybe less.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom with this grisled ol’ Nam vet. I live quite well, matter o’ fact. I don’t have consumeritis, which allows me to share what I do have with others.

Not absolutely sure what you mean, but guessing it’s not a compliment. Let the kid talk!

Hoping Louisiana activists will be passing out diapers at Vitters re-election events.

23? That explains alot.
May I ask what motivation brought you to the Lake? I’m just wondering. Most folks here are a whole lotta years older than you, have been liberals and activists, some for twice, three times as many years as you’ve lived.
We’ve lived through what Reagan’s foolish words and ideas have done to America. And, we too are sad for our country. And, yes we do love the good old USA. We love what kind of country we could be.

Nelson thanking Lieberman, among others.

Calls themselves the Jobs Squad [as in Fewer]

I’m just a young sprout (23) though so what do I know.

Obviously…not much.

The trth is that supply of investment or goods doesn’t create economic activity or jobs. That is the big lie of republican economics. Demand creates jobs.
Demand is defined as willingness and ability to buy. Poor people can’t create demand. Giving more money to rich people (defined as those who have more money than they know what to do with) creates nothing.
The key to stmulating demand is to increase the velocity at which money travels through people’s hand. That is the basis of the multiplier. Middle class and working poor will spend money faster thanmore money in the hands of rich people who will stash it away for the grea-great-grandkids.

Oh, afore I ferget. Glenzilla’s on Moyer’s tonight.

I hope Andrea is correct.
But, then look who she’s married to. Even he was surprised by this “downturn”.
Errrrrr.

they wanted to cut spending before accepting more in the package ($25 billion). Lets use that Scalpel that Obama was talking about in the campaign and start cutting wasteful and ineffective government spending. Encourage states to do it on a state and local level as well. I can almost guarantee you that while some states would have to make hard decisions but cutting wasteful spending could clear up a lot of deficits. Look at your own budget, track every penny you spend for a month and then see what you could cut out. You would be amazed at what you could do and how much of your money is going where.

Correction…we need at least two barf bags just to listen to Ben Nelson…he’s calling their group the “jobs squad”. He actually said that their group trimmed the fat, fried the bacon and milk the sacred cows. He’s so creepy.

edit Moyer’s Moyers

TV worth watching.

Very Cool. Thanks!

Tweety sez they have 58 Dems plus three GOPs

Thank you. Vulgarities rarely get people ahead in life, calm dialogue can accomplish so much but many my age (any age really)don’t seem to have the patience to embrace this.

Kennedy coming from Florida tonight; likely no vote tonight, per Tweety.

just ignore – his/her response was just inane gibberish

Little Green Apples is over on the right side of the screen, sprite. Best be careful lest the taint of socialism here contanimate you.

It’s mean here. I think I’m too thin-skinned for this. G’nite.

It is called the flow of money ….. low income earners spend 100% of their income and middle income earners spend 98% with average saving rate of 2%….. the more that goes to these two class of earners, the more this stimulates the economy.

So the screaming about infrastructure jobs that are only blue collar don’t know how bridges, roads or mass transportation projects are built. There are a broad spectrum of jobs, civil engineers, project managers, multiple suppliers with concrete, paving and even landscaping.

This stimulus package is not the place to start using a scalpel. This is like shocking a sour swimming pool with chlorine. Obama has already said the administration intends to keep programs that work and eliminate programs that don’t. I can only speak for FL but this state has a number of “shovel ready” projects that could put a lot of people to work. The Tampa Bay area has one of the nation’s highest unemployment rates. People need jobs now. They can’t wait while bureaucrats and politicians argue about how to fix govt spending.

I love reading but haven’t made enough time lately. It is the greatest way to have a greater understanding in life. It is hard to understand your own point of view unless you can understand the opposing views. So i appreciate your recommendations in order understand deeper

Collins up

PS: don’t feed tr0lls

I’m there!

Barbara. Not all. Stay. I’ll share my hot cocoa with kahlua with you.
Just. Breathe.

oh no – don’t encourage ignorance please

Guess you don’t recognize an agent provacateur.

This one perhaps isn’t a troll. Started out with a sarcastic remark about us all bein’ rich so that put him in my free fire zone right off the bat. Now that s/he’s a little more sensible I’ll listen.

“Scalpel” is the right word. All the stuff the Republicans were bitching about add up to about $2 billion. That’s less than ten percent of the $25 billion that the infrastructure amendment was adding. What they were objecting to adds up to nothing even remotely like the difference. Now, compare that $2b to the $150b difference in infrastructure spending the Republicans were supposedly offering. It’s less than one percent. This is why I’m scoffing. You’re not even doing basic arithmetic, yet you’re assuming you know how much states need. PS, you’re dead wrong about that.

As for economizing, I’ve seen a few bills over the years, and I was struck by the fact that the first edition of this bill I saw, which was the one that was originally proposed in the House, already had an inspector general and waste, fraud, and abuse provision. That’s usually an afterthought at best. Yet they specifically required one on an adhoc spending bill. That’s amazing, and it’s nothing to do with Repbublicans. Go here and read why. The massive waste in Iraq is how they do things.

Yeah, we can hang Republicans and Blue Dogs in trees and treat them like pinatas.

Guess I do!

Nowadays, there are very few unskilled jobs in such construction. At the very least, you need to be able to operate something like a bulldozer or a jackhammer. Plus, you still need all those folks who engineer, plan, and audit the things.

Haven’t left yet. I don’t mean forever. Just for now, tonight. And yes to cocoa and kahlua! Allergic to chocolate. Don’t care. Peanut butter sandwich, too? *g*

I like unedited flow of ideas. I stumbled upon the sight while looking at articles and seeing people comments on them. I appreciate looking at all sides and seeing where agreements and disagreements are. I do find it confusing that our country seemed to so embrace “change” but it seems so many people do not want to even listen to an opposing point of view. It is beneficial, I have learned a great deal from the opinions and statements made on this site.

Oh, you are a funny, smart lady. Want that cocoa now?

thr republicans lost too many elections

Shoot. Darn, I forgot about the chocolate thing. I’m usually pretty good about remembering that stuff.
Hot milk with Kahlua and lets just pass on the sandwich.
Corn tortilla with melted cheese?

While you’re having your giggles and sharing your hot chocolate I’ll be figuring out what to do after losing my job.

…Lets use that Scalpel that Obama was talking about in the campaign and start cutting wasteful and ineffective government spending. Encourage states to do it on a state and local level as well. I can almost guarantee you that while some states would have to make hard decisions but cutting wasteful spending could clear up a lot of deficits…

Bullshit!

And a couple of points:

1. Cutting spending will increase unemployment! Econ 101 duh!

2. Name the specific wasteful programs you want to cut! Don’t generalize! Put up or shut up!

3. Name the specific businesses and the specific numbers of jobs they are going to create. Again, don’t generalize! Put up or shut up!

4. And don’t give us the crap that you don’t have the answers. After all, you must have the answers or you wouldn’t be convinced you’re right, right?

After all, you’d never be accused of imagining things, would you?

Tell us all how many jobs GM will create with tax cuts!

And, oh by the way, GM, like many if not most major corporations, pay almost zero in taxes now, so tell us all just how paying less than zero in taxes is going to create jobs.

I’m truly sorry about your job. I didn’t know. This helps me understand where your anger is coming from. Small wonder!

The money that is stashed away, is in banks or various investments. These create jobs and makes capital available which does create jobs and enables the entrepreneur to do what they do to make this country great. While I understand your thought process I also believe that the working/middle class spending money so fast is what contributed to this current crisis. If they worked to make investments work for them they would be using the system to their advantage and getting out of the rat race of life.

I’m glad. Shows a curious mind. And, I’m not sure about us embracing real change. Most humans hate that. People just do not want to hurt.
Regarding this site, there are many here who are willing to have an honest discussion. From my experience, it really depends on a lot of variables. Some times we have open minded discussions, and other times, it’s pie fights and mud flinging.
We be human.

What she said.

it seems so many people do not want to even listen to an opposing point of view

Listening to opposing points of view is a way of learning. That said, repeating “talking points” that have been shown to be misrepresentations at best doesn’t get a large audience. I’m not saying that’s what you are doing. We’re lucky to have a lot of expertise in economics here, both on the front page, at Oxdown and in the comments. We listen, we talk, we learn. And we argue.

Whaddaya mean “we argue,” bunky?

Enjoy your chocolate and your new found Republican friends. Just a word of advice. Don’t turn you back on them.

hoo, shit. Not you too?

OK, we get into some hellacious firefights.

Perfect example was the $25 million to refurbish the trails in the national parks.

First comes the civil engineers and surveyors plan the project and then they could hire college kids to do the manual labor to spread gravel, build the small bridges, and/or smoothing the paving. These are combined collar jobs AND a rural jobs program which is disparately needed.

But I expect that project to be on the cutting room floor…… because economic specialist John McCain said it would NOT create jobs……

People don’t have enough money to invest – they are just barely paying their bills. And what would be safe to invest in now anyway?

Stop. Please. I listen, sometimes I learn. Even from people with whom I strongly disagree. Generally, I strongly disagree with Republicans. That hasn’t changed. Snarking me is not going to help you. What can we do for you (seriously, no snark)?

I wasn’t laughing at you.
I will enjoy my hot chocolate.
For what it’s worth, I lost my full time job that I spent my entire career in 7 years ago, and have been making do with the occasional temp gig. I try to look on the sunny side. That’s what works for me.

lol !

I don’t want to automatically label someone who disagrees as a troll. He/she would learn that there is lots of healthy debate here. But starting off by sneering, followed by condescending lectures on how to live within our means, is by no means the way to engage the debate. It just gets hackles up.

Off to watch Reichwing Washington Week with the usual neoliberal panelists.

I also believe that the working/middle class spending money so fast is what contributed to this current crisis.

Those damn working people just do not know how to save money. They spend all their money on CDS’s and CDO’s and $2000/hour prostitutes named Aria. The people such as Insane McCain, who cannot remember how many how many homes they own, are so much more responsible.

It does indeed. If (s)he’s really 23, that’s prolly part of it. Likely many of us were in wisdom-of-youth mode then. If (s)he is a poseur, well then, may (s)he grow a butt carbuncle twice the size of Limbaugh’s.

I agree that the shovel ready projects should be funded. This bill could be very simple with great amounts to infrastructure to help with immediate jobs. Lots of tax cuts to create incentives for businesses and investors to expand and create lasting jobs into the future. Money for unemployment to tide people over while jobs are created. and money to the states to help with there deficits. But spending cuts like he said in his campaign don’t need to wait. Inefficient and unsuccessful programs need to be cut and put the funds to paying off our debt and put to better uses

Tell me ONE job investments have created…. usually the wealthy move their money off shore….

At the ripe old age of 23, you have not dealt with marriage, children, medical bills and the speed bumps that hit you smack in the face. One car I owned knew when payday Friday was so that the clutch or brakes would go out on the way home from work. Children break their arms, they need special educational help (that cost money) and then tried to save for retirement. It isn’t as easy as you think when you are looking at your kid with a obviously crooked arm or socking a couple of thousand into the old 401K.

My own adult children who are making between 15-30K living with room mates know how hard life is and one broken down car disaster away from drowning financially.

“…and even stupider tax break for car buyers with no emissions requirements.”

At least the stupid cash-for-clunkers thing is dead for now.

See? This can go both ways.

Did you not just live through the last 8 years of a quasi-fascist adminstration intent on running roughshod over the rest of the world while doing their best to destroy the working and middle class and you have no anger? Did you fall from outer space or are you just merely a delintate suffering from terminal eunni?

In fairness, McCain’s wife owned most of them.

i respect your open mindedness but an informed debate requires participants to have a modicum of knowledge and understanding of the issue(s) being debated – the person in question displays an amazing lack of education, information and an unwillingness to learn quite apart from the sneering and condescending lectures that you rightly reference.

Yeah, I’m in higher ed and enrollement is way down. Heads are rolling.

Was reading today that 82% of the job losses are men. I think this is going to lead to a lot of problems in families and probably frustration and abuse. Ripples.

LOL!

I am 23, and am from wisconsin. We have been losing Manufacturing jobs like crazy for the last 7-8 years and it is only intensifying. Our numbers are not as bad but our state is facing a $5.4 billion deficit over the next 2 years. We tend to stay lower in the high times and higher in the lower times. I also do talk more as a fiscal conservative more than republican because numbers are a lot easier to deal with in my mind. So in that I also believe that personal accountability and living on your own is so fundamental in tackling big issues. the lack of responsibility I have seen in my peers is part of the reason I left college. I worked hard at McDonalds thru high school and some of college then and since a mill job. Throughout these experiences I have drawn conclusions and that is the basis of why I believe a emphasis on understanding of personal finances is so important. When working at McDonalds there were kids at 17 that needed to be shown how to use a broom. In college people expected their parents to foot the bill and pay their expenses while they wasted the opportunity and money. At the mill I see people complaining about various things but never working harder than what doesn’t get them fired because they can because they are protected by the union. I was raised to work hard and fight for what you believe in and I thought thats how everyone was raised and felt but as I explored the world I didn’t find this to be true and it upset me.

Let’s not get personal here.
You may be angry over losing your job which is understandable, but others here have endured much worse.
And, have maintained their civility.
Hot chocolate for you?

I’ll take some hot chocolate. Can you make it like the little cafe in Cuneo, Italy, I had several years ago? Like a liquid chocolate bar.

Let me take one more run at this. Not a dilettante suffering from ennui by a long shot. No. A woman who spent the last year and a half caring for the love of my life as he was dying from cancer. I was his principal and usually only caregiver. I had to give up my writing/editing business in order to do that, but David was my highest priority. He died a terrible death in October after a mind-bogglingly horrific year that preceded his death. My business is gone. My modest assets are nearly gone. I was hospitalized with a cardiac episode in January, owing largely to grief and stress, exacerbated by the hellish world brought down around our shoulders by George W. Bush and his evil posse. Am I angry? You know what? I am. End of story.

A loan for a restaurant to start created 20 some jobs for a friend of mine from college who started a pizza franchise. My investment in a rental property allows me not to be so worried if I were to lose my job or get layed off another week. This also allowed a family of 5, and a single woman on disability (unit 2), to have a great place to live with an attentive landlord and a great neighborhood. The mega rich get rich from investments of scale and or their companies. Remember though that these companies whose shares rise making them richer also make the small amounts of money that we so diligently shovel in to IRAs and 401k grow so that we can live comfortably in retirement.

Higher Ed?

You bet. Comin’ attcha. I just wish I had those little marshmellows.
Gotta go now. My 15 year old son’s home from HS and we’re making dinner and getting ready to watch Stone’s “W”.

You are coming from a whole different universe than the people who need help right now. Live long and prosper – and try not to let the poor people disturb your dreams.

Barbara – I hope you know how much I care for you.
If I could touch your heart and take away even a little bit of your pain, I would.
I feel like we’re sisters.
Baby….hankie?

Thanks, honey. I really need one at the moment . . . .

you are right. I believe the federal government should be smaller because our country is so diverse. For example a $15,000 housing tax credit is nearly 20% of a starter house in some places in Wisconsin where in California it isn’t even 5%. Give the states more responsibility because what is good for California may not be good for Wisconsin or Texas or Florida or Alaska.

I guess we have more in common than would meet the eye. I too cared for my wife who died a horrofic death from cancer. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer 8 months after our marriage. We met during Clinton’s campaign. I was at her side continuously from the initial diagnosis through every hospitalization and proceedure to the time I closed her eyes for the last time. I’m trully sorry for loss of the love of your life. I also hope that your health is on the mend. Your posts suggest that your spirit and love of life is strong.

And hug that 15-year-old of yours. Some day he’ll be 23 and trying to figure things out, too, ya know? It is the way of things.

Gotta go, girlfriend wants supper and some time. I appreciate understanding more about the people on this site. I have a greater respect for the ideas shared after the harshness of the topics subsided and humans with emotion and lives talked to each other. Thank you, it was a pleasure!!

No sarcasm, sincerity.

Take care grasshopper. No sarcasm, sincerety

Okay. I’ll hold you.
Know that EE Cummings poem?
I’ll hold you in my heart?
I’ll go look for it.
Oh, heck. I’ve already missed 20 minutes of the move. I can watch it tomorrow, right.
I’ll be right back.
Swear.

I’m so sorry for your loss, Bluetoe. It is a fierce, take-no-prisoners disease, isn’t it? And watching my soul-mate perish without being able to save him has carved what at this point feels like a permanent gash in my heart. Wisdom bids me consider otherwise, but I’m a long way from there. And you have been healing for a long time. And now the job. I am sorry, and I do mean it. I am zapped and need to hit the rack. Sleep well and very best wishes for a successful job search!

Thanks barbara. One day at a time. Sleep well and heal.

I just gave him a hug from you…and here’s the poem:

“i carry your heart with me (i carry it in my heart)i am never without it (anywhere
i go you go,my dear; and whatever is done by only me is your doing,my darling)
i fear no fate (for you are my fate,my sweet)i want no world (for beautiful you are my world,my true)
and it’s you are whatever a moon has always meant and whatever a sun will always sing is you

here is the deepest secret nobody knows
(here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud and the sky of the sky of a tree called life; which grows
higher than the soul can hope or mind can hide)
and this is the wonder that’s keeping the stars apart

i carry your heart (i carry it in my heart)”
— E.E. Cummings
I told James about the hug and he said….that is so sweet!

I am 23, and am from wisconsin…

I apologize for the tone of my earlier intemperate remarks. I don’t apologize for the disbelief at some of your own remarks.

I’m a neighbor of yours in Minnesota. Perhaps you’re new at these blog thingies, so perhaps you are willing to slow down, read, ask questions, think and then respond.

You started off here on the wrong foot by inaccurately labeling us all as rich folks.

We aren’t. We are your everyday next-door neighbors. Folks who have kids to raise. Folks who have been layed off and don’t know how they are going to feed their little ones. Folks who work hard and are worried about losing their homes if the next pink slip is their’s.

You talk a lot about tax cuts. Fine. Tax cuts do have value and aren’t necessarily bad.

But tax cuts aren’t, and can’t be, the solution to every problem.

Tax cuts don’t repair bridges (and I remind you of that fallen bridge in Minneapolis).

Tax cuts don’t repair roads (and you and I both know we’re approaching pothole season in Wisconsin and Minnesota).

Tax cuts don’t do a lot of things.

Spending, whether by the government, or by businesses, or by individuals, does bootstrap the economy.

When businesses are not spending, and individuals are not or cannot spend money, then somebody has to do it.

In the financial downturn we’re are all experiencing, the spender of last resort is our government.

And by government, I mean the representatives of all of us! The people we elect to speak for all of us!

I want my government to stand up and lead the way if no one else can or will.

My government, by speaking/spending, is saying that we the people believe in the future of we the people, even if businesses and individuals find it hard at the moment to see a way clear to that future.

If our government (we the people) doesn’t when businesses and individuals can’t or won’t, who will?

Now you can argue, and should, the efficacy of spending on this or that, and will it create this many jobs or that many. Fine!

But spend we must! Remember that old adage: “You’ve got to spend money to earn money!”

ohhhhhhhhh…do you think I could electrocute myself by crying onto my keyboard? No. Probably not. Thanks for this, demi. It is powerful and sad and true. I miss him very much, all day, every day. And every night. And I suppose at some level it is his gentle spirit that bade me try to heal the rift with Bluetoe. Who, if he’s still here, needs to know he has blown his cover, in that he has a warm and kind heart. I will never tell.

That’s really very sweet barbar. Alas the heart is now covered with a thick layer of scar tissue.

This is a wonderful comment, my fellow Minnesotan. Ya done good!

bluetoe and barbara.
May I hug you both? May I share that I think something divine is happening? Hearts know.
Were we not just saying that we can keep our minds and hearts open to discussion so that we can learn?
Love. Is.

Ta to you as well!

Those Cheeseheads…can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em. *g*

I will, for once, forego the temptation to say something smarty-ass to lighten things up. Instead, I will just say thank you. To both of you.

LOL!

((Bluetoe2))
I don’t know what else to say….but. A big Smootch to ya.

Thanks demi and barbara. Good night to both of you and may your dreams be sweet. There is always tomorrow.

Good Night.
Barbara
Bluetoe2
Tomorrow. Indeed. Amazing possibilities.
(PS….I’m not giggling. *g*)

stimulus is giving more money to the people to stimulate the economy, help it grow. The government spending money it doesn’t have isn’t the wisest choice to begin with. That is why we got into trouble to begin with.

See, right there I think you’re off to an incorrect start.

’stimulus’ isn’t just ‘giving more money to the people’. Giving someone money inflates the money supply, but doesn’t guarantee that the people will put it to use. You’re against stupid money supply inflation (I’m guessing), so why would you argue to just give money to people? It’s also why the economy didn’t grow like crazy just because of the Bush tax cuts — the Rich weren’t using it to create new product.

I say stimulus is to have government acquire goods & services for money, so you can pump money into the economy AND get something good for it that the economy (for whatever reasons) wasn’t doing itself. Infrastructure is like that. The economy, however free or perfect just doesn’t do much of that big stuff. Since you’re actually getting something for the money it isn’t JUST inflating the money supply. It actually reflects real GDP as per requirements of sound economics.

“The government spending money it doesn’t have” isn’t actually the reason “why we got into trouble to begin with”.

We got into trouble because Republicans were peeved that Bill Clinton and Democrats were going to get credit for helping poor and working-class people buy homes, so the mortgage lending rules were relaxed and lenders were allowed to sell their risk off to somebody else who had it evaluated as “AAA” by stupid or bough-off asset rating agencies (Warren Buffet may have had a hand in that!) and ‘insured’ with Credit Default Swaps where the firm offering them wasn’t required by law to have proper reserves and was allowed to get away with that because Republicans specifically prevented law to regulate Credit Default Swaps and prevented state insurance agencies from regulating them.

Republicans are to blame from start to finish.

The reason we’re still in this mess is the mortgage problem hasn’t been fixed yet. Gov’t has tried to shore up the economy with TARP funds to banks and now with stimulus monies, but until the mortgage problem is faced down we will be in danger.