two cups of coffee this morn’n and i still ain’t stimulated.

Hey, Sunny -

Did you come upstairs?

bloviators a group of ungulates raised for consumer feeding?

What really irks so many Republicans, of course, is that all the stimulus money isn’t being used to cut individual and business taxes, their cure-all for economic ailments, even though all the credible evidence is that tax cuts are only about half as stimulative as direct government spending.

What really irks so many Republicans, of course, is that all the stimulus money isn’t being used to cut individual and business taxes, their cure-all for economic ailments, even though all the credible evidence is that tax cuts are only about half as stimulative as direct government spending.
there’s one of the problems, obama is actually giving them a point that does not exist, he gives them the point that “tax cuts are stimulous”

tax cuts are NOT “stimulous”, unless that tax was serving no purpose

taxes almost always SAVE money, when you “cut a tax” you are in just about every case costing the individual more/

tax reform is ONLY stimulous when it’s targeted at a specific industry that is struggling or needs to grwo

now there can be efficiency returns, when we learn to provide a service more efficiently THEN the tax that funded that service can be reduced, otherwise you are going to SLOW the economy by cutting the fees that fund services

this is simple stuff and obama gets it WRONG

The ACTUAL percentage of unemployed in America today exceeds 18%. Combined with the number of underemployed, forced to work part time, many without health benefits, adds at least another 6% to that number. We are in a depression right now.

Tax cuts benefit ONLY those earning taxable income. Any prospective stimulus that these retained earnings might otherwise indirectly provide is negated by the reality that consumer spending has virtually stopped across all income classes, in acknowledgment of the significance of the crisis and the lack of confidence in the banking system to continue to function.

After eight years of “tax cut economics” – we find ourselves in a depression.

The very definition of insanity is met when we opt to do the same thing, and expect a different result.

Mornin’, gang -

Two posts from Greg Sargent that shed a little light on the sausage-making involved with getting Dems air time to promo the stim:

http://theplumline.whorunsgov……ems-on-tv/

http://theplumline.whorunsgov……ow-to-fix/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgUwpb3I98M

Paul Krugman coming up on Morning Joe. Joe is loaded for bear. Krugman will have a hard time getting a word in edgewise.

Nobel Memorial Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has a report from Davos in the Guardian this morning. It isn’t encouraging.

But this time, as business leaders shared their experiences, one could almost feel the clouds darkening. The spirit was captured by one speaker who suggested that we had gone from “boom and bust” to “boom and Armageddon”. The emerging consensus was that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) forecast for 2009, issued as the meeting convened, of global stagnation – the lowest growth in the post-war period – was optimistic.

And there does seem to be consensus at Davos about one thing,

Equally striking was the loss of faith in markets. In a widely attended brainstorming session at which participants were asked what single failure accounted for the crisis, there was a resounding answer: the belief that markets were self-correcting.

The entire article is a must read.

Well, this should be interesting….hope he comes on soon because I can only stand a few minutes of scar’s crap and my allotment is already running out. :-( It would be lovely if Krugman would drop his “nice guy” persona and shove an economic fist upside scar’s stoopid head; geez, a girl can always hope.

Hi, I’m here now. How are ya?

A useful tool for reading along, writing blogs and diaries, etc.:

“Financial Crisis” website from the St. Louis Fed.

All the Fed branches have specialties that they make available to the public. At St. Louis it’s data and graphing tools. The Crisis site has a timeline of federal policy actions (at present starting in Feb. 2007), links to key economic and financial data, and mo’ links to other sites, such as the failed bank list (bookmark for weekly updates on Fridays) and other pages at the FDIC.

Today’s employment situation report that Attaturk reffed will be somewhere here, BLS after 8:30.

Good morning, pups. It’s Bobo and Krugman today. Bobo has decided to chitter about “The Gang System,” and he squeaks that the moderates — who are not a party, but a gang — could be the lever by which President Obama transforms the landscape of government and creates a broad postpartisan coalition. If “bipartisan” means give Lindsey Graham whatever he’s whining for, God forbid… Mr. Krugman says we’re “On the Edge,” and that Washington has lost any sense of the reality that we may well be falling into an economic abyss, and that if we do, it will be very hard to get out again.

Here they are.

The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and I’ve got waffles with warm maple syrup this morning. I’ve joined the rest of Savannah in sniffling and sneezing, and am VERY tired of the weather. It’s 23° now, but it’s supposed to be in the mid 60s tomorrow. The Nice Polite Republicans just told me that President Obama is impatient with the Republicans. He’s not alone… Who wants to volunteer to stuff a sock in Lindsey Graham’s pie hole? Have a great day.

I hope Krugman does too. I doubt being in front of a camera is a natural fit for most economists but I sure would like to see a lot more of them on tv, esp those who accurately predicted our financial meltdown long ago instead of far too many know nothings.
I haven’t learned to do linkies yet but there’s an excellent piece in the Wapo today by Steven Perlstein, “Wanted: Personal Economic Trainers. Apply at Capitol”. Perlstein is right on. Far too many legislators, esp R’s, don’t have the foggiest understanding of the stimulus bill.
I can’t listen to R’s incoherent rants for very long. My teeth can’t take much more clenching.

Doin’ good; gotta get ready shortly for a trip to Aville to take care of errands.

Expect to be heading through your way sometime this month; should have several days notice beforehand. Will try to contact you via the e-mail you left a while back in hopes of a meet-up.

I haven’t learned to do linkies yet but there’s an excellent piece in the Wapo today by Steven Perlstein, “Wanted: Personal Economic Trainers. Apply at Capitol”. Perlstein is right on. Far too many legislators, esp R’s, don’t have the foggiest understanding of the stimulus bill.

And the media talking heads are just as bad, if not worse.

These titans of industry drank the kool aid and we true believers. No different from religious fanatics who take their religion on faith and don’t examine it in the light of reason.

The entire world financial system has been propped up by the credit bubble – which basically was the creation and trading of “fiat” money in an giant ponzi scheme. All the math done to explain this was pure poppy cock and most of these guys don’t even understand the modeling.

If you remove the selling or credit, there’s not much there. Credit became too expensive and all the risk related instruments arose like a house of cards. It’s all coming down now.

The real economy was manufacturing and providing real goods and services – not credit and information and risk management and wealth management and insurance. YIKES we might have to actually produce “things” again.

When you make money by doing “deals” there is not baseline for what this is actually valued at. It’s just a BS way to make income – fees, commissions and so forth. These slackers don’t work, they deal.

He can be lethal in print; sure wish that would translate on the toob. Yeah, good Perlstein piece….was reading some of the comments earlier.

Every time I go to the dentist I’m surprised to learn there’s still enamel on my teeth.

Great! I’d love it.

Mika now reading krautnozzle……..what did we do to deserve this?

Everyday I despise republicans more and more. It’s a fun sport.

Gack! They should be ashamed. Didn’t any of them learn how to do their homework in school at all?

Notice how Joe Scarborough isn’t in the studio today with the other ‘adults’? Maybe it’s because he’s been an immature asshole all week?

ko had a great sc, hosted over at raw story

he throws cheney out of the country, does a great job too

man, some of the stuff he uses looks like it came straight from the commentors here at the lake, for instance he nails cheney with;

“those people who were released from guantanimo?…the ones that went on to become terrorists again?…why did YOU release them without a trial?”

stuff like that, nails cheney down “pretty good”

I say “pretty” good becuase keith missed a GREAT opportunity which i presented here at the lake last week;

the real reason cheney won’t let bush close guantanimo

which should now read;

“the real reason cheney want’s obama to keep quantanimo open”

haliburton turns a pretty profit from gitmo

man I wish olberman was armed with that info for the sc he just did

I must have missed those times when Joe wasn’t an immature asshole!

Left you that linky to Milbank’s POS yesterday; hope you caught it. Sorry to have taken so long to respond but the zzzzzz’s caught up with me from staying up most of the night to listen to Markopolos hearing.

hewre ya go

The Republicans are economic terrorists — there’s no other way to put it. They seek to cause maximum harm to the people for maximum political gain. There’s gotta be a law somewhere that covers this.

The Republicans are economic terrorists

they’re terrorists in every sense of the word, have look at ko’s special comment, he brutalizes cheney as being the real terrorist

he’s right too

There’s gotta be a law somewhere that covers this.

extraordinary rendition would serve fine but obama’s spokesman said we don’t do that anymore

- 1 degree here in Central Mass,love that winter weather!!

The TARP was money taken from the people by the finance crooks at “gunpoint”. We were held up.

That money needs to be returned along with all the rest that these slackers have stolen from the people.

Besweatered sidekick? LOL. I thought you meant Barnacle at first. Didn’t think of Mika as a sidekick sa much as the chick who gets coffee.

The right-wing, via the Moonie Times, is pushing a completely false interpretation of the latest CBO report on the stimulus claiming it worse than doing nothing. It is complete and unadulterated b.s.

Mary Matlin, positively looking like a cadaver, was spewing this on Hannity last night .

And also that FDR prolonged the depression. hannity would just lob a siftball and she would string together talking points.

But, that’s exactly the kind of bullshit that has to be taken on directly with the true facts (as oppsed to false facts, i guess). Not only do te Dems have tio promote the stimulus but they have to rip down the R horseshit.

The repukes are a bunch of sore losers,the people voted for Obama ,because they liked his ideas more than that other guy.
The repukes in Congress fail to see that and would rather stand in the way,I say good luck to them in 2010

They know that if this works they will be only a memory in history,that is their biggest fear and they know it,I also see that Murdochs radio and newspaper empire has taken a “BIG” hit financially,the times they are a changin.Can any one say”NETWORK”?

someone should create a list of all these ceos they should be considered pariahs in our society

I forgot about that! Now, when will he admit he’s embarrassed by the R party of lunatics? Joe was threatening to run for office again recently or maybe his mouth was just flapping too fast again.

They know that if this works they will be only a memory in history,that is their biggest fear and they know it,

And they are getting goofier by the minute because they have nothing to offer other than their tired mantra. Its that vision thing they have a problem with.

Well, I’d like to respond to that cadaver comment but it’s too bloody early in the day to get kicked outta the Lake.
;-)

Ohhhhh, goody! Now you can buy a velvet painting of pat buchanan……..they’re goin’ downhill from joe the plumber.

what is this with the msnbc guys threatening to run for office?

does he have a pitchfork in the painting?

GWB the final result of the dumbing down of America !!
Hey Joe six-pack here I come !

R’s are like grade school boys who go up on a roof, flap their arms & jump off thinking they are going to fly. Oh wait, they don’t jump off themselves. They just came up with the idea & convinced others kids to do it instead while they watched & cheered them on.

scar: “Obama is looking angry; he’s playing right into the republicans’ hands.”

OK, I’ve listened to enough of this shit waiting around for Krugman…..will someone please live blog while I go wash off the sludge?

I don’t think these guys could ever be considered visionaries !

Who else on msnbc was threatening to run?
They should put up or shut up.

Let them run they will find out just how popular they really are ,hard core liberals may watch MSNBC but who else does?

he wasn’t actually doing it himself but te rumor was tweetuy was going to run for Specter’s senate seat. he snot.

just showed up in my email too. agree it is a must read. here is another part that imo is critical we read:

This crisis raises fundamental questions about globalisation, which was supposed to help diffuse risk. Instead, it has enabled America’s failures to spread around the world, like a contagious disease. Still, the worry at Davos was that there would be a retreat from even our flawed globalisation, and that poor countries would suffer the most.

But the playing field has always been uneven. If developing countries can’t compete with America’s subsidies and guarantees, how could any developing country defend to its citizens the idea of opening itself even more to America’s highly subsidised banks? At least for the moment, financial market liberalisation seems to be dead.

The inequities are obvious. Even if poor countries were willing to guarantee their deposits, the guarantee would mean less than that from the United States. This partly explains the curious flow of funds from developing countries to the US – from whence the world’s problems originated. Moreover, developing countries lack the resources to engage in the massive stimulus policies of the advanced countries.

Making matters worse, the IMF still forces most countries that turn to it for help to raise interest rates and lower spending, worsening the downturns. And, to add insult to injury, banks in advanced countries, especially those receiving aid from their governments, seem to be pulling back from lending in developing countries, including through branches and subsidiaries. So the prospects for most developing countries – including those that had done everything “right” – are bleak.

As if all this were not enough, as the Davos meeting opened America’s House of Representatives passed a bill requiring US steel to be used in stimulus spending, despite the G20’s call to avoid protectionism in response to the crisis.

there were a couple of posts here yesterday pushing for the stimulus bill to be “buy american” – imo that is exceedingly dangerous both for how it will be seen by the rest of the world (by non elites anyway) and we don’t need to be feeding rightwing memes scapegoating others for our problems.

ps the Lake and Janes morning post got a mention on MSNBC yesterday morning!

You really should include a warning; I had forgotten how nice it is not to look at Ws idiot, brainless face. Will try to forget again.

Na they will always demanding their own money and not want it taken by government / the people. it’s theirs and they don’t want to share, don’t want to pay for the commons whether they benefit or not. tax guts = greed for these jerks.

In the parking lot the visionaries dress in the latest rage

made me think of that Springsteen line. Means absolutely nohting. Just did.

- 1 degree here in Central Mass,love that winter weather!!

howdy neighbor! almost a balmy 10F here in worcester.

It wasn’t ONLY the tax cut policies that tanked this economy. Even if the tax system were fair, this economy would be in the tank. Wall street bizarre illegal unethical practices took the entire world economy down, tax or no taxes. It was inevitable. These guys partied and plundered like there was no tomorrow.

Tomorrow is today.

will someone with cable tv consider liveblogging krugman for those of us without? thanks.

Has Krugman come on yet?

Morning. I swore off MoJo but since you all say Krugman’s going to be on, I’m watching. It’s painful. They’re talking about the USS Cole planner. When Krugman comes on I’ll live blog (but I’m no Marcy).
What is the story behind the USS Cole charges being dropped?

there were a couple of posts here yesterday pushing for the stimulus bill to be “buy american” – imo that is exceedingly dangerous both for how it will be seen by the rest of the world (by non elites anyway) and we don’t need to be feeding rightwing memes scapegoating others for our problems.

I agree, Selise, and I was discouraged to see the idea so cavalierly promoted here yesterday.

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

Good morning all.

Good point! I noticed Joe was also wearing his “I’m Really Smart” glasses today too. Awwwww, poor Joe. He has to earn his way back to the adult table. LOL

Thanks Waccamaw for the WaPo link! I’ll go find it. ;-)

It’s a bitter twelve degrees here.

oh great, Newtie again. Why can’t he just stay under his slimey rock?
7:30-8:00 NEWT GINGRICH
Former Speaker of the House
R-Georgia, 1995-99 http://www.newt.org

Topic: Mr. Gingrich’s opposition to the current stimulus efforts by the House and the Senate, the role of the Treasury Department during the current economic downturn and what Republicans should be doing between now and 2010. Guest also participated with Citizens United in producing a documentary on Ronald Reagan.

8:00-8:30 MICHAEL ETTLINGER
Center for American Progress
Vice President for Economic Policy http://www.americanprogress.org

Topic: The economic stimulus bill now being debated in the Senate. Mr. Ettlinger’s group supports the stimulus package, and he makes the argument that the Democrats’ House and Senate American Recovery and Reinvestment Acts include spending provisions and tax cuts aimed at reviving our ailing economy.

8:30-9:00 Newspaper Articles/Phones
Ford’s Theatre Hit

8:30 PAUL TETREAULT
Remote @ Ford’s Theatre
Ford’s Theater Director http://www.fordstheatre.org

9:00-10:00 ANTHONY PITCH
Historian & Author, “They Have Killed Papa Dead!”

Topic: Both guest will discuss the importance of President Lincoln. Mr Pitch will offer a historical perspective while Mr. Tetreault will discuss Ford’s current reconstruction efforts at the Theatre.

Miss Lindsey Graham is so dramatic, clip of him on msnbc having hissy fits on the floor yesterday. Bald faced liar too.

There’s a time & a place for different policies. Buy American for a domestic stimulus bill seem fine to me. And don’t worry about the rest of world. They all have plenty of trade restrictions themselves.

Here’s the Dana Milbank article on WaPo (Maccamaw posted it) about Markopolos story to take Madoff down:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..inionsbox1

Hysterical as usual!

you have no idea how relieved i am to read that. was feeling far too much like the lone crackpot yesterday. tried to think of some different approaches from which to argue the issue but don’t see that i made much if any headway – although the opposing arguments in favor of “buy american” only worked to convince me more strongly against it.

don’t worry about the rest of world. They all have plenty of trade restrictions themselves.

don’t worry about the rest of the world? please tell me this is snark.

Are you all sure Krugman’s coming up? Haven’t seen it mentioned.

If Buy American is promoted, steel production should be on the top list.

Not at all. Every country protects some or all of their domestic industries to one extent or another.

I fully agree that the Federal bidget needs to
be rid of waste, fraud and corruption.
Here are some places to start:

Barro

Feldstein

Mulligan

Markopulous may be out of central casting, but he was trying to tell the slackers at the SEC that something wasn’t kosher and they couldn’t be bothered, the industry needed to be there to regulate! You can’t toss the baby out with the bath water now could you?

Every country protects some or all of their domestic industries to one extent or another

agree, but that’s completely beside the point.

continuing – it’s not an economic question, it’s one of politics with economic ramifications.

It has been very bitter in TCB. Under 30. Wind chill colder. 37 right now.

So what’s the point?

Good question…now they’ve got woodhead on. Will probably hold Krugman till the last two minutes with scar flapping his mouth the entire time. I *knew* there were good reasons I’d sworn off listening to this drivel I blame ironranger for the tantilizing tip. *g*

that sounds downright temperate right now.

Hey, I’m suffering through this crap too! I can’t find my mouthguard so I’ve got a pen in my mouth to keep from teeth clenching.

ok you guys. what’s the fight about? ’cause i wanna stick my nose in. i’ll say who’s right, ok? eCahn sez everybody protects at least some industries. Right. Selise sez we need to be concerned about the rest of the world. i get the feeling you’re both right. But, Selise what do you mean it’s a political question? are you talking about trade policy? bottom line, i don’t think you guys disagree that we should be protectionist to some extent, yes? if so, then you’re both right.

I AM TOTALLY convinced,they just want the dems,and Obama the superstar to fail,AND TAKE ALL THE REST OFUS ON THE brink,OVER THE CLIFF,ITS SIMPLE AS THAT IMO

not if you’re a tangerine. although Southern Dragon sez this weather makes them sweeter. Can’t prove it by me, but i hope so. if you’re a people (as opposed to a citrus fruit) it’s OK but you can’t help but saying “I didn’t move down here for this shit.”

Still no mention of Krugman.

sore fucking losers !!

why on earth doyou watch KILLERJOE and Meek Ass Mikka,its like rubbernecking a train wreck

where’s Krugman supposed to be?

Every country protects some or all of their domestic industries to one extent or another

The point is that if this devolves into an out-and-out protectionist war (which in our current economic climate is not all that far-fetched), the impact on the developing world will be ever far greater than on the developed. It will be worst for those who can least afford it.

they were not SLACKERS,they planned this thievery

i wrote on it yesterday. you can see my comments on these threads:

http://firedoglake.com/2009/02…..-american/
http://firedoglake.com/2009/02…..-american/

btw, i hope you are planning to write a diary this morning on the jobs numbers when they come out?

this is such bullshit but….. didja see the pitchers of Bush in the Oval Office at his desk… in his shirtsleeves. Hey Andy Card! Zip it, asshole.

Just joshin’ ya, darlin’. *smooch* Had just about forgotten how totally foul this show is (all three hours of it!) but I swear it seems to have gotten much worse in recent weeks — quel surprise.

You can cross that bridge if you ever come to it. We’ve come a long way since Smoot-Hawley, but its shadow seems to hang excessively heavily over us.

That’s the standard “free trader” strawman.

really. Lindsay graham whining “The process stinks!!!” Or whetver he said. Baby.

my fatwer always told me stories,of the GREAT DEPRESSION he lived through,this is unconscienable

i don’t have a problem with most of what the neoliberals call protectionism. but this is one, at this time, and in the context of our prior trade regime, is playing with fire.

I *had* stopped watching the trash (love your mika name, btw) but the temptation of Krugman was just too much.

they HATE OBAMA,and are scared shitless of any change to them or their MULTI MILLION dollar paychecks

selise,
Scanned some of your arguements, but have a few things to do before jobs number, so BBL. And yes, will update the diary after the jobs report.

Mika’s not so meek anymore. In her old role of defending the more liberal position, she was quite meek. Now, that she’s switched to bashing Obama and the dems, she’s become downright vocal. I can’t decide if she realized that the only way Joe will let her talk is if she agrees with him (and thus chose more tv face-time) or her liberal positions went out the window for financial reasons.
Or….they’ve rec’d their marching orders to do everything they can to stop the stimulus pkg.

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

OLD FARTUGLY ASS TRAITOR MURDOCH
losses his entire ASS

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..64463.html

Obama’s got a set of brass ones,he needs to get pissed off tell these assholes get out of the way

OK. I can’t say who’s right (for once). I just don’t know. I guess tehre’s a level of acceptable protectionism that countries tolerate of one another and if that gets exceeded you have trade wars. In the long run, I think it’s not a good thing. But so much of the stimulus stuff is fiocused on the short run to get the economy moving even a little.

Message to all dipshit talking gassbags Stop Obama the Superstar

And now their assholenessses can be heard on the radio, as well. :-(

Selise does make a valid point about the trading partners getting upset. However, I have yet to see it mentioned that irrespective the level of domestic production mandates, current domestic supplies are insufficiant to handle a massive increase in spending. There would be huge purchasing of foriegn goods and raw stock to ramp into a manufacturing upswing.

They just announced that Krugman will be on, but it’s getting late and I may miss him. I’m going to make a prediction. Joe will barely speak while K’s on for fear of being resoundedly beaten to a pulp (a la Mika’s father). But as soon as K’s off the set, Joe will bash him relentlessly.

Mine too. he was in CCC. Got him out of the city and into siome fresh air. honest labor. needed work, not “make-work.” money for the folks back home. So when I hear about how FDR prolonged or exacerbated the depression without any pushback I get sooooo pissed.

Scar’s just doin’ his duty for the team.

It’s not about bipartisanship.
It’s not about finding consensus in constructive solutions.
It’s the new Republican Southern strategy….

what happened to if the probability is low but the risk is high we have to take preemptive action?]

i don’t think the probability is all that low, but it’s not about Smoot-Hawley, it’s about the dollar losing reserve status in an uncontrolled way and it’s about getting global coordination on a host of things that are far, far, far more important than the very little economic impact i would expect from “buy american” legislation. how exactly do we ask people in other countries to trust us after everything we’ve done on issues like coordinated regulation of a new restructured banking and financial industry or global warming?

the GOOPERS are terrified of this black charismatic fellow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPDXmEsQtQ

I’m getting sick of taht orange PU background that’s always behind him Worse than “McCain Green”

great – call or email me if there’s anything i can be of assistance with.

keep talkin you guys. i’m learnin’.

i’m serious. interesting discussion.

with EDUCATION gutted,kidss NO LONGER are taught about the GD,they LIVE it

i didn’t think the stimulus bill is large enough to cause a significant upswing in manufacturing. am i wrong about that?

yup
Turnoff propaganda TVEEEEEEEEEE

I was wrong. Joe being very respectful of Krugman’s accomplishments in his intro.

Yesterday, I was arguing over Yahoo messenger with my favorite right-winger about this stimulus bill and all the pork in it. He and I agreed that the list printed in CNN a couple of days ago was an accurate listing of what the Republicans objected to.

Now I know all the following from having followed the threads here, but my RW friend (who is reasonable sometimes!) thought that list included roughly half the money in the present bill.

He added it up and I added it up (I’m in FL; he’s in Arizona). Both of us came up with the same number. Then I encouraged him to take that number as a percentage of the whole bill, as it was currently on the table.

He was shocked to discover that this was all over about 2% of the total money being spent.

I mentioned to him, as I will state here: CNN did a lovely job of listing all the objections, but forgot the important part: how much of the total the list made up. Which is kind of crucial if you’re complaining about waste and are holding up something that could actually help people.

At the same time, he and I are in the IT business. I will have a real problem if the jobs related to these stimulus contents are shipped overseas. The IT world (and this is the part where the medical records are computerized and the like) in the US would greatly benefit from these jobs being kept here.

But in an article on Yahoo news this morning (about the US IT bust), the article noted that a programmer here in the States makes USD 75,000 where a similar programmer in India makes USD 8,000.

Now how in the world can anyone compete with that????

Krugman saying some ‘economists’ are really politically motivated.

true. my kids have no idea. we have to teach them. i’m still trying to get into their heads the fact that it happened and could happen again. soon. gotta do that first and the why’s and wherefore’s later.

got to say ecahn is one of people i admire for their willingness to really listen to other points of view.

Y’all go well.

*poof* for the day

thank you for the live blogging – no cable tv.

K:Japan stopped their incentives and that’s when they re-tanked

Why do we want to hear Newt on NBC…ripping the plan. Why do we want his opinion?

kinda hard not to be, right? but i guess that doesn’t mean joe wopuld be. so, yeah. joe gets credit for not being a dick.

Mika talking pork. K says good programs

Now how in the world can anyone compete with that????

you can’t and you shouldn’t have to.

really? i hate that about people.

-s-
or wahtever that snark thing is

Thank you, eCAHN, for saying what you have said. I wasn’t here for the threads on Buy American…get tired of being ignored…but thank you for advocating for protecting jobs.

I think some here *still* don’t ”get it” as far as how bad things are and how much we need to have those jobs stay here.

I also don’t get the neocon reference to it. All I have seen are the stupid ”tax cuts” rhetoric, nothing advocating American jobs by neocons. Please enlighten me if I have missed something.

Selise–I usually agree with your stance on things, but am against what I’ve read today. Perhaps I’ll have a different opinion after reading the threads from yesterday (which I’ll go to now), but I doubt it.

I can look out my window and see a small ranch style house (probably 900 square feet) housing two families…and it’s been that way for over a year for them.

I am working only a part time job because the job picture is so bleak here. And even at that, my hours have been cut. There are so many folks without full time jobs here. And you know what? I don’t mind that they are spreading the hours around so that everyone has something to take home–as long as its done fairly and those that need it the most are getting the most hours. It’s the democratic thing to do.

good. obama did yesterday some. like “Buying the gov’t new cars.” nothing wrong with that.

Now, David gregory.

YEH,and they never got out of the hole

Pat B:Reagan’s tax cut created boon.

i didn’t think the stimulus bill is large enough to cause a significant upswing in manufacturing. am i wrong about that?

If done correctly the stimulas would be a trigger for exactly that.

she is so pathetically ill informed and feckless,argh@#$%^@#$%^@#$%

It’s very possible the right wingers want all the money to go to them instead of the American people.

i was referring to the stimulus bill we have, not the stimulus bill we want. :(

too bad he raised taxes

K: 36 repubs taking their marching orders from Rush

Joe Scar is a complete idiot.

thing about FL is… I think the dems should say to FL and other states like it “No money for you.” “Go ahead. Keep electing Republicans who don’t have the balls to adequately raise revenue for your state and who vote against the bill that would provisde this $$ in the first place..” Not good for me. I live here too. But I think it’s the right thing. I read tghis a.m. teachers union wants a 1 cent increase in the sales tax. Would they get the fuck away from the sales tax as a way of raising revenue?

they WWANT POWER BACK,they must destroy the SUPERSTAR IMAGE OF THE MAGIC NEGRO,i truly believe this,they want him to klook weak and useless

Like the huge TARP ripoff….at least the word is getting out. All that overpayment for bad assets.

Good morning, Boogiecheck.

really.

Joe defending ‘true consevatism’. K: Have u not seen the modern conservative?

tru dat
PROPAGANDA LIAR,makking MULTI MILLIONS while other people stave….vile shitweasel and probable killer

ouch. good one.

K’s staying on but I must hurry for work. See all later.

boogiecheck, i agree with you about the severity of what is happening. it’s not that i don’t care about jobs, it’s that i think “buy american” legislation at this time will do more harm than good. i hope you will read the prior threads, i may not have made the arguments very well, but at least i touched on most of them. here’s a part of one of my comments:

i am 110% behind legislation that will prevent or add high tariffs to imports made by companies or countries that don’t have and enforce good labor rights (living wages, rights to organize, safety in the workplace, etc), because that is what we need to change. when we focus on the rights of workers everywhere, we in the usa are allies with workers in other countries and the fight is against those people who would deny workers right anywhere. “buy american” turns that battle into one between workers.

it is by being allies with workers in other countries that we’ve been able to occasionally score some wins (like blocking the ftaa) against the corporate interests that have been attempting to keep us divided.

take good care

i gotcha. *g*

Early MOrning UP…

Krugman did a good job getting his points out. Glad I waited for it for 2 looong hours.

good for K!

and thanks again for the live blog.

off to make more coffee. later pups.

I would agree with you about Florida, but I don’t live here. I live in Connecticut and travel here weekly! :-)

CT is a nice blue State!

Good morning to you, oldnslow.

Be careful there…you don’t want to be blackballed…

The economic impact of Buy American is probably low. I view it as a political matter, and assessing politics is not my strong suit. But here’s the way I see the optics: Got to sell the program domestically and voters find it hard to swallow that their tax dollars (well, future ones) will be spent to stimulate jobs overseas.

In general, there’s not much diff between auto industry bailout and Buy American.

Low probability, high consequence events are those that there is no intermediate solution. There’s plenty of things that could be done to avert raising barriers to trade before they get problematic.

One thing to remember about Smoot-Hawley is that it was a reaction to the depression, not a cause of it. So, preventing a depression would seem to be the best way to avoid all the consequencces, including those for trade.

There’s no other currency that can substitute for the USD, so I don’t worry about that one too much. Heck, if the bad economic policies of the past 8 years didn’t do it, how can minor design flaws in an important stimulus package do it?

-598,000 7.6%, revisions downward, 3 million jobs lost during 2008, vs. 2.6 previously reported.

W has more than round-tripped on the unemployment rate. Started at 7.3%, ended at 7.6%, having dropped to a low of 4.4% in early 2007.

I know this was responded to before but I want to make the case again;

reagan raised taxes not lowered them

when he lowered taxes that sent our economy into the worst tailspin since the depression, he then proceeded to not only raise taxes, redistibute that pressure from those that use the most economic assets TO those that provide economic assets

now that tailspin created by the reagan “tax cuts” are elclipsed by this tailspins by the bush tax cuts

having dropped to a low of 4.4% in early 2007.

even that number is sad, compare relative income with those unemployment figures

more bad jobs that keep people struggling and using government programs to survive

is it possible to remove the delta of those laborers to see what that figure gives us?

Attention–Moderator? Can you remove the comment at #161? Whining not allowed.

The economic impact of Buy American is probably low.

thanks, that was my intuition, but i don’t have an educated intuition on this kind of thing.

In general, there’s not much diff between auto industry bailout and Buy American.

i thought you said that sachs was right – that absent a auto industry bailout we were asking for a depression?

i agree with everything you say about preventing a depression. but why must progressives use right wing populism to do it, there are many other, better (better because they are truthful about what is happening and why instead of focusing on foreigners as if they were our problem) ways to make the case using progressive populism. that is what i’m in favor of.

There’s no other currency that can substitute for the USD, so I don’t worry about that one too much.

i agree there is no substitution right now, or in the near future. but substitution is not the immediate issue, it’s the magnitude of the reserves of reserve currency that other countries have been forced (or encouraged) to maintain due to the trade regimes we, for the most part, have imposed on much of the world via the imf / washington consensus ideology. some countries with resources had a respite during the bush era because of the run up in commodity prices, but that’s collapsed now.

here’s a thought experiment – what happens if our major trading partners decide to cut their dollar reserves in half? what does that do to our costs of attempting a domestic stimulus (especially in terms of interest rates and /or inflation)?

Heck, if the bad economic policies of the past 8 years didn’t do it, how can minor design flaws in an important stimulus package do it?

this issue isn’t the minor design flaw – it’s the message that it sends to the rest of world. which, by the way, is the same message i’m getting from our elite. they are acting out of self interest and it pisses me off. in the same way this will piss off people outside the usa (especially those who see us at the world’s elite). that could precipitate a political dynamic of retrenchment or even retaliation – one where political leaders are favored if they engage in right wing demagoguery. what are the plenty of things we can do to stop that if it should get rolling?

I can’t stomach “Morning Joe” so I did not catch the segment with Dr. Krugman. What I can imagine, however, is Dr. Krugman patiently attempting to explain very simple economic concepts to what amounts to a cage of hyenas. Is that pretty much the way it went?

Sign me up for that. I’ll try to fish out some gym socks that I’ve been wearing for about a year. Let’s shoot a video and send it over to Fox. It would make my day to watch O’Reilly’s head explode.

Ok so as a Republican and someone from California I will tell you what irks us. First our new president is showing us what he has always done. He is voting present, instead of coming out with something constructive that both side can then sit down and work out, he turned this over the Nancy Pelosi. Liberals dont get your dander up. Again hand in air, from Ca. I have known this woman for a very very long time, and it was an absolute mistake on Pres. Obama’s part to turn this over to that woman. Good Grief. He wanted to be president, well he got his wish, now it is time for him to step up to the plate and start playing the part. This is not the campaign any longer. You are now responsible for what is going on, you now have to take responsiblity for what is going on. And you are going to have to do better or else you are going to be just like other one hit wonders. A thing of the past when your 4 years are up. And the American people who voted for you, moderates and conservatives are going to go slinking back to their party and re-elect republicans because the democrates can not get their act together. Stop telling me ” I was elected” and start acting like a president for God sake. Stop acting like a Democrate and start acting like the President. This is for real President Obama. This is not a campaign, you are now going to have to vote yes or no. Present will not surfice any longer. Welcome to the big leagues.