Can’t do it. They really screwed the pooch on this one. The Dems approach on putting this bill together has been straight out of Blazing Saddles. Ya got the Dems standing there with their hands wrapped around their own necks and threatening they’re gonna “shoot this n*gger” if they don’t get what they want, and the Repubs standin’ there smirking, and saying “Go right ahead!” So they backed down. They should have started the negotiation with “We’re gonna shoot YOU if you don’t give us what you want”, and compromised from there…
Far as I can see the best thing would be to start over. Anything with a “bad bank” in it should be shot down for the scam it is…..

I never cease to be amazed at just how stupid the members of “the greatest deliberative body in the world” actually are…to say nothing of the members of the house. My congressnob in particular – Ken Calvert – has intellectual capacity that is easily as luminous as a tree stump. But I do call. I’m civilized, but pointed. Feinstein and Boxer are on my hit list.

Bad stimulus + continuation of Paulson bank plan = depression in 18 months

Scary thought, but the smart money would bet that way.

I’m getting lots of e-mails from respected groups with petitions to sign to get this bill through. I agree.

A bad bank inside a nationalization plan makes sense has part of their restructuring and recapitalization.

Outside on its own as currently discussed, it dumps bad debt on taxpayers without reforming the banking industry and amounts to another giveaway to those that created the meltdown.

this is ridiculous. There was a pole today about capping executive compensation at the TARPcorps. 76% in favor, 6% against, 20% said they shouldn’t get paid at all. The rethugs must realize that in the court of public opinion, their corporate patrons are one step away from Gitmo.

$3.1 trillion in tax cuts for the wealthy ?????

I know you may be right Ian….

Here’s my line (in progress). Hello congressman, I want you to know I am calling you in bitter support of this bill.

Ian,

You are a smart guy, IMO. I respect you. I’ve learned from you.

But I think you’re wrong about the stimulus bill.

It’s spending for spending’s sake. It’s political.

My prescription: Think first.

Can someone fill me in on why Feingold is on this list? Is it because he believes the stimulus as constructed is a complete, watered-down clusterf-ck?

I was wondering the same thing…

Don’t you people get it? A hushed and whispery Dick Cheney says the barbarians are at the gate.

The only stimulus we need is more waterboarding!

The media is holding the stake while the GOP pounds it into Lady Liberty’s chest.

-G

I had dinner the other night with an attorney who does business with some high rollin bankers. According to the attorney, the bankers are sayin:

“We are in favor of the stimulus bill, as soon as the govt. puts money into the hands of the average Joe, we will find a way of getting it from him- we always do”

Or is it the other way around? I always get confused on that point.

This does not surprise me. I know how these fuckers think. We’re talking about a really bad bunch…

3 million jobs is spending for spending’s sake?

Get on the phones.

Of course they will. That’s why the tax cut portion of the bill is beyond stupid. That money will be taken away from people because they have no pricing power at all.

As for the bankers, they need to be made to go away or turned into utilities. They’re parasites.

Should I bother calling Alexander and Corker?

Yes. I am going to support it because, being a grown-up, I think it is a good idea for the trains to run in NYC and for the teachers to get paid. If D.C. is like a circus, Albany is like a madhouse. NY is billions in the red and Albany is sitting on its hands. Do I feel blackmailed? Yes.

But the hitch is that in order to have a “bad bank” you have to figure out how to value the bad assets. And no one has any clue how to do that. They’re just pulling numbers outta their a**

looks like a bunch of ’centrists’ trying to flex their muscle and demonstrate their new awesome powers.

I am so glad partisanship is dead. It’s been replaced by monomania.

I think at this point the problem isn’t the industry lobbyists.. as you said, they’re resigned to this thing and plotting how to benefit from it. It’s the rethug Limbaugh ideologues, who now, as always, are prepared to sacrifice a country on the altar of their dogmatic fanaticism. The tax-cut+small government+private enterprise wingnuts are this economic crisis’ Smoot-Hawley protectionists, to lay down a very germane historical comparison.

ian – the problem i have is that a bad bill passed means the money is gone and our options are more limited.

not saying you are wrong – wtf do i know? i just can’t say this one is so clear to me. it seems more like throwing money down the drain so that later the argument can me made that we must cut entitlements because we can’t afford them. when it comes to spending money, i’d rather spend it on a safety net and not on what seems more like a junkies next fix – the high won’t last and the pain that’s coming will be greater.

i don’t know enough right now to feel confident about lobbying the senate one way or the other.

Yes, call everyone. Even those dead in the water can feel anger thru the magic of telephone. And my experience is, call your own Senators, and everyone else’s too. Many do not ask if you are a resident and simply record your opinion. Others – you can remind them that politics are no longer local and this is a national concern.

Me three.

Bob in HI

That’s the crux of the problem, isn’t it? What I keep seeing if I read between the lines is that the banks don’t want to risk making loans that won’t be repaid. Making sure employment stays high is one of the best ways, if not the best way, of reassuring lenders.

Besides Republicans thinking about 2010, who benefits from a really watered down bill? In the end, I don’t think even the banks do.

I am lucky. Both of my Senators (Baucus and Tester) are strongly behind the stimulus bill. Unfortunately, our lone Representative is a thoroughly useless Bushevik Republican who does not understand reason or logic.

I would guess that Blue Dog Sen. Inouye (D-HI) needs some calls, as well.
Besides, IIRC, he holds an important position in this regard.

Bob in HI

My preference would be for Obama to come out and say, cooperation or shrubco prosecutions. Perhaps the rethugs would be more amenable on the stimulus and other components of the national agenda if it was made clear to them that the alternative is to let the country go down the shiter and we entertain the masses by spending the next four years prosecutin’ and jailin’ the lot of ‘em.

We can call our kritters to support Obama. But that is so old school. The greedy socialistic wealthy CEO’s do it differently. They work within the system, with bribes. It has cost them $114 million last year, to persuade Congress to give them $300 billion. It is all fungible.

Beneficiaries of the $700 billion bailout package in the finance and automotive industries have spent a total of $114.2 million on lobbying in the past year and contributions toward the 2008 election, the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics has found. The companies’ political activities have, in part, yielded them $295.2 billion from the federal government’s Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), an extraordinary return of 258,449 percent.

It is clearly a flawed bill, especially the tax cuts introduced to “persuade” Republicans, but an imperfect bill is better than no bill at all. All of the progressive economists (Krugman, Delong, Baker, et.) have come out in favor of passing it, even while complaining about specific provisions. All have also said that the alternative is not a better bill, but probable total financial meltdown. I am not an expert, but they are and I generally trust their judgment.

again, I don’t really think they’re the issue here. They’re all too busy trying to figure out how to exploit and benefit from the stimulus. Remember, the CEOs think the stimulus WILL work, and that helps them/their bottom lines. The problem is with the Limbaugh ideologues in Congress and the punditocracy that’re holding this back. We’re going to lose the whole frackin’ country to a bunch of free enterprise-taxcut-government-down-the-toilet fanatics.

You’re wrong about that. They didn’t pay that $114 million. We did. We paid for it with lower salaries for bank employees, lower interest for customer savings, and higher interest for credit.

Public support for this bill is collapsing and it never was very high.

The problem is simple:

This bill does almost nothing for households facing crushing debt, foreclosure, unemployment, and worse.

This bill is a long term economic restructuring plan. It may or may not be ideal for that purpose (it has good points and bad), but if there continues to be nothing (much) for the immediate relief of households — but oh but so very much for the banks and Wall Street — then there won’t be public support.

Parts of this plan should be passed immediately, along with spending to support households.

Parts of it need to wait or be scrapped altogether.

if you’re comparing the present situation to the economic depression 68 years ago, i’m not
buying it. Real opposing ideologies with real armies behind them were on the march then. Tolkien style. My interest is in the “atomic clock”. Obama has pulled the hands back a couple notches at least and a big test is going to be next week. Bibi must go down.

I have written about this before. There are basically 3 prices to be aware of.

The first is the face value. This is the price banks cite because it makes them look solvent. No one believes this price is real. The freeze in credit is a function of this. Everyone thinks the banks are overpricing these because otherwise they would have to admit they are insolvent.

The second is mark to market prices currently thought to be around 15-25% of the face value. Under this valuation, all banks are insolvent.

The third is the pre-bubble price which is around 40% off the face value. In a nationalization, the government could use this figure as a benchmark for how much would be needed to recapitalize banks. The government’s interest is in a price that reflects what such a price would be if the system were stable. Since it is backstopping all this, it is effectively creating that stability, and therefore the price.

So shorter version: Yes, these assets can and should be valued at pre-bubble prices.

As go Republicans, so go bluedogs.

Talking point: you vote against this bill, and this economy goes down, it will be hung like an albatross round your neck, and you will find yourself in a bread line with everyone else, after the next election cycle.

All of the progressive economists (Krugman, Delong, Baker, et.) have come out in favor of passing it, even while complaining about specific provisions.

they all said we had to pass the tarp too. months later i’m still not convinced.

granted, i may be very wrong. i’m not arguing against anyone else making the calls, i’m only expressing my own limited and probably very flawed judgement.

if this bill is so necessary, i expect to have the strategy explained to me. i expect to be given be told truthfully wtf is happening and why.

i’m just not there yet.

My #36 in reply to conniptionfit at #20.

Unless the banking system collapses, they won’t be in breadlines. Hmmm. Suddenly the reason for Congress’ priorities is becoming clear …

Until consumers get disposable income in hand we move swiftly to depression.
Safety net and green energy first. Hire more than you need and pay well.
Restructure the financial industry. Repeal the bankruptcy law to stop foreclosues by giving leverage to the foreclosed…offer a lease to own with market value. Make the banks eat the shitpile. New canks with better business plans will emerge,

I think you’re wrong about the stimulus bill.

It’s spending for spending’s sake. It’s political.

Your evidence of that?

Do you even agree we are in the midst of an economic crisis?

The only stimulus we need is more waterboarding!

Hmmm, water-boarding. I hadn’t thought of that. Do ya think we’d get a 100% vote if Prez Obama invited the nay-sayers over for a little “conversation”?

as I suggested above, the president should make it clear that if this fails and the country goes down the tubes, he can still maintain high approval among Dems and moderates by spending the next 4 years running show trials against shrubco (and their congressional rethug enablers). I mean, its not like we’ll have anything else to do than watch TV with a sense of gratuitous schadenfreude… its not like we’ll have jobs, or prospects, or food or anything.

oy

Sorry, can’t support this thing.

It’s a terrible piece of stimulus legislation. It’s only about a third as big as it needs to be, it puts way too much money in pointless tax cuts and government spending on government for its own sake, rather than government spending that will make it to people working for private corporations doing government work.

I’m not going to get behind any bill unless it has:

- Strict regulation of the shadow-banking and derivatives markets.
- Clear plan for financial institution nationalization that wipes out shareholders proper, like we did back in the S&L days.
- Boatloads of stimulus money (preferably printed, considering deflation) that will actually reinvigorate old industries, rebuild critical infrastructure, and HEAVILY invests in burgeoning markets.

I’m sick of this piecemeal incrementalist bullshit. The TARP fiasco was, “Something we have to do now, even if it’s just to hold us over until we do something better.”

Now is the time to do that something better, and I’m not settling for less.

I say storm the banks and take them over since they are asking for our money, have taken our money they are ours.

Throw the bums out.

The economy will collapse completely within 6 months. This is just feel good crap and passing some cash to the crooks.

We’ve been had for decades and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Now let’s not be all negative around here.

Senate votes 15k tax break for bottom feeding house buyers but won’t fix the bankruptcy law so people can keep their primary residence.

But Hugh, in order to backstop all the bad assets, don’t the taxpayers have to buy all the bad assets? And doesn’t that mean that the gov’t is in effect saying that these assets are worth 40% of face value simply because we SAY that’s what they’re worth? Really? That’s how that works?

What’s Feingold doing on that list? Nevermind, he aint my Senator, so I don’t want to know. It’s too depressing already. But remind me to ask again after the vote.

FDR saved the country from revolution during the 1st Republican Depression. Will there be a revolution as a result of the 2nd Republican Depression?

One source of new jobs could be in the blindfold industry.

The GI Bill saved this country from a revolution.

The GI Bill was after WWII not during the Republican Depression.

Obama is already a victim of his blind faith in “bipartanship”. It’s led to a very flawed stimulus bill that was been watered down to garner Republican support, the very people responsible for the looming Depression.

We are wandering in the dark here, all of us, Obama, Bernanke, Summers, the whole lot. The stimulus package will help a bit, but it isn’t going to help enough, and given the Rethug barrage, it will help even less than it would have. Anyone who thnks we won’t see 14 percent unemployment in 18 months is dreaming in technicolor. We are in a hard landing.

Precisely why we need a strong safety net. All the good campsites are taken by the chronically homeless. Food. medical and shelter first.

The dole is not fun to live on a year of that and folks will be anxiuos to work.

Re: # 58.

Since we’re already nearing 12% and the numbers don’t reflect the under-employed and those who have given up, we’re probably going to be closer to 20% in six months.

Congress is fiddling while Rome burns.

I’m afraid that Obama will take the brunt of this. He’s the leader of the government and the government won’t get off the ground with this with something that will actually work.

When the Republicans get on board, none of us will win. It’ll be business as usual.

My senators (TX) are Cornyn & Hutchinson and they obviously don’t give a damn what I think. Is there any point in me calling or contacting them, other than me being added to their enemies list?

Ian,

I way late to this…I hope stuff like this post runs all day Thursday. This is bigger than FISA in some ways.

An excellent proposal. The money must have gone somewhere and national emergencies now justify all sorts of extreme extralegal behavior. What could be a bigger emergency than this?

I can see it now:

“Show Mr. [financier’s name here] the instruments of financial transparency and fiduciary responsibility.”