Stiglitz is saying something slightly more radical than what I’ve been saying for some time. You don’t need the current banks. If they won’t lend, let them go under. If the Fed can lend to banks, why can’t it lend directly to banks and consumers.
Banks exist to be intermediaries between central banks and those who need credit. They are given the ability to create money through fractional reserve money (yes, create) and they also have the right to borrow money at rates that no one else can receive. If you could take your money, multiply it by 10 (that’s not the exact number, but as an example) and lend it out, think you could make a profit? If you could borrow money at 1 to 5% and then lend it out for more than that, in some cases 15% more, think you could make money?
Banks thus are given by governments an incredibly valuable privilege. It’s really hard to overstate how easy it is to make steady returns as a bank as long as you don’t get greedy. In exchange for the right to create money and borrow it at rates no one else gets, banks are expected to add some value to the equation. Specifically, they are expected to figure out who is a good credit risk, and where money should best be loaned and used. There are two sides of this – money should be loaned where it has a high return. It should also be loaned to folks who can pay it back. It should be invested in the same way—return averaged with risk.
Banks haven’t been doing this.
They have been seeking out the highest return, but they haven’t been taking into account risk. Instead they have been seeking out high risk for high returns. They haven’t been adding value. They also haven’t been performing the taks of getting money to the people who can use it best. They took the money and invested in securities which were essentially fraudulent, in a bubble that any idiot could see would not last, in non-productive financial industries. They didn’t invest it in manufacturing, by and large, or new technologies or alternative energy, or anything particularly useful. They didn’t use it to actually grow the economy—sure, GDP was going up, profits were going up, but it was based on multiple financial bubbles that weren’t sustainable and didn’t indicate any real prosperity underneath.
And when it came to loaning to ordinary people, in many cases, they were lending at usurious interest rates. (What’s your credit card’s interest rate?)
In exchange for the very valuable privilege of creating money and borrowing at lower rates than anyone else get, banks weren’t creating value for the economy, they were destroying it. So Stiglitz is right. There’s no reason to keep them around, at least not this bunch of banks. Let private investors take their losses, guarantee deposits, do a clean up as best you can and create new banks. Or in the case of the US, maybe not…
Instead, what needs to be done is to just have the Fed lend directly to consumers and businesses. Let everyone switch their credit card to a Fed card, and as a one time thing everyone can switch over up to a $10,000 balance. The interest rate? How about the top end of the Fed Funds rate +4%? Right now, that would mean a 4.25% interest rate. If people default, well, garnish their wages. You’re the government.
Start lending to businesses. Base it off credit ratings after you take over the ratings agencies, or force reform, because they clearly are worthless (having rated much of the junk that’s now imploded as great credit risks.)
In time what you make this money conditional – you can borrow money from the Fed only for certain things. Want to buy a house to live in? Sure, you can borrow the money in one of 5 standard mortgage styles. Want a vacation home or an investment home? Go to a commercial lender. On your credit card, want to buy food? Great. Want to put a vacation on your card? Forget it. Want to buy a fuel efficient car? Sure. Want to buy a gas guzzler – get your financing somewhere else (not that this is much of an issue, given the low rates car companies give.)
Of course, the Fed may not want to be in the business of looking into too many things too deeply. So something like banks is useful for when folks do want that vacation, or that second home, or to borrow money to start a business as opposed to just a credit line for one that’s ongoing.
Fortunately there is one group of financial institutions in the economy which has done a good job as banks, even though they aren’t called banks.
America’s credit unions. Let them expand, offer them better credit, get them together to set up wide ranging ATMs so folks can get their money anywhere. Use the one part of the system which, because they aren’t stock companies driven by quarterly results and don’t expect multi-million dollar bonuses, didn’t get involved very much in the greed driven stupidity of the last few decades.
As for the banks, if they can survive on their own, great. If they can’t, nationalize them and slowly wind them down. It may take years, but so be it. Wipe out the shareholders completely (they took the money in the good years). Give the creditors what they deserve, if there’s anything left for them. Move the deposits over to healthy banks or credit unions.
Stop throwing good money after bad. Something like 8 trillion has been spent, loaned and guaranteed so far and it hasn’t stopped the crisis. Take the losses, find out where the bottom is and build a new system.
This will also lead to a more vibrant society in the long run. Banks have been abusing the privileges they received and as a result credit for the things America really needs has dried up. Wanted a loan for a hedge fund? No problem. Wanted a loan for a new company employing hundreds that would only make 5% to 8% a year? Probably not.
But it was the hedge funds returns that were fake. And it was the small businesses that never started because they could only make 5% a year which could have produced real value and lasting jobs. If you want people to start new businesses, if you want consumers to spend, then giving them credit at reasonable rates, and making that credit available is what has to be done.
At the same time, due diligence has to come back into the equation. Everyone in America needs a credit card. Might as well just give them one. Without it you can’t rent a car, stay in a hotel or really interact in a modern society. But eveyone doesn’t need or deserve the same credit limit. And everyone doesn’t need a home equity loan, in fact very few people do. Let the Fed do the drop dead easy lending "you have an income of $50,000 a year, you want a mortgage where you will pay $10,000 a year, that’s under 30%, you can have it". Have the credit unions and the few remaining banks do the more speculative lending, but watch them like hawks. And take the credit bureaus and the ratings agencies under government sway, and either nationalize them or regulate the heck out of them, so that the ratings they give mean something.
Add in some federal anti-usury laws (no interest rates above fed funds + 15%, on anything, including fees) and you’ve got yourself a full new banking system where credit is available to those who need it at reasonable rates, while reasonable oversight is occuring. And because so many investors and lenders were wiped out, well, the lesson will have been learned, for a couple generations, that if you do really really stupid things, the government won’t just bail you out.
No more privatizing profits and socializing losses.



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How heartening to learn that my suggestion that the present banks are completely unnecessary.
How about banks as a utility – standard interest and no bankers going into get rich quick schemes?
I say let the shareholders have their banks and the gov charter some people’s banks and see if they can compete with them.
Why not just do Grameencredit here?
Imagine if all the people decided to say stuffit to the banks. They took their money out and said screw you to credit ratings.
I do that every month. /s
Hey ES, sorry to hear about yer arm bone. How you getting along?
.
We need to stop letting these various industries that depend upon government money or licenses or tax policy write the laws. We need to rewrite the laws governing them to reflect the interests of a majority of the American taxpayers. If these folks don’t want that, let them do business elsewhere, without our money.
.
I heard back from the bird people. They said it couldn’t possibly be an acorn woodpecker east of the Mississippi, and I told them it couldn’t be any of the others they suggested. So it’s still a mystery.
Spirits are better than the rest of me, rf, thank you. Will see a surgeon and get the real skinny tomorrow.
stay tuned
Very interesting idea, and more than a little terrifying. At least until I get my head around the implications. Couple clarifying questions:
1. Fine, let crap banks fail. But does FDIC get stuck for the deposits?
2. Does USG being the direct bank not expose all credit provisioning in the US to direct politicization? Money for concrete pouring firms, fine / Money for stem cell product companies, not so fine.
3. Also outlaw CDOs, yes? So the note holder for every mortgage is always clear in the future?
4. Why does Chase want to go along, and if they don’t, how hard does that make this?
Ian, you have said with intelligence and experience what I have been wondering. Why buy up all that toxic debt? Start fresh. But, to be honest, since I know so little about economics I didn’t know if it was feasible. Now that you’ve stated that it is feasible, why would we consider doing anything else? That’s not a rhetorical question. What’s the downside?
Like today’s gas guzzler cars they’re not necessary IF you have some other more efficient cars to buy.
I’m not too keen on the Fed banking directly to private individuals. It means they’d have to repossess cars & stuff and that’s very messy. I’d rather see a simpler broadening of the kinds of banks the Fed might loan to. Spread it out a bit to bring in more competition and less focus on the financial industry.
I’m trying to figure out if it would be cheaper in the long run for the government to make every American a millionaire. Anybody who can’t scrape by on their million can get a job but hopefully it would make most consumer borrowing unnecessary. Having a little trouble with the math but if I’m not mistaken one trillion dollars divided among one million people would give them each $1 million. Subtract minors and non-citizens and you might be able to accomplish it for slightly under $2 trillion.
Yeah, I know it’s BS but I can really use the $1 million.:-)
Presumably the banks don’t have the cash to meet a run on the bank. But this is ALWAYS the case even for “healthy banks”. The fractional reserve system allows them to NOT have all the depositors money as cash on hand.
Any bank which does fractional reserve banking is not liquid.
Cool handle. I assume it means you’ll make me an offer I can’t refuse because it’s going to come true anyway.
It’s a family business like the Rothschilds, they make money the old fashioned way…they’re bankers with prior knowledge.
Thanks for the info. The experts might be mistaken. Some of us woodpeckers like to defy conventional wisdom.
What are we, 280 million Americans? 280,000,000 x $1,000,000 = $280,000,000,000,000. It’d take $280 trillion.
Banks are the nexus of the whole web of problems we now face. We need to replace them either through nationalization or putting something different in their place. The problem is that we have a bunch of depression wishing Republicans and Blue Dogs and an Obama Administration that seems dedicated to doing too little too late.
We still face depression. The banks remain insolvent. Homeowners still aren’t being helped. Credit is frozen. We need a new industrial policy and we aren’t seeing even talk of one. Summers and Geithner are using bandaids where open heart surgery is needed. The stimulus is being modified into irrelevance.
I look at all this and I see a situation that is still retrievable but we have only one year for meaningful action. Paulson and Bernanke have already wasted 18 months. Our options and resources are not endless.
Hope you get good news, i.e. it won’t require surgery.
Not only are the banks not creating value, they’re destroying the value that the rest of us have been working our asses off to create.
It’s no longer as if we’re being asked to throw $2 after every bad $1. It feels like we’re now being asked to throw $30 after every bad $1.
Time to move toward Grameen-like entities that can retain and move value at lower cost, and simpler lending operations. And that economic model seems far more stable (both for lenders and borrowers) than the mega-banks and endless credit card offers we’ve all been saddled with in recent years.
Spew!
I should have gone & looked again today, with binoculars & camera. It was a beautiful day, but not tomorrow.
Pretty good one-handed typing. *g* Sorry to hear about your tumble. At least you didn’t try to break your fall with your face.
The toxic debt is causing uncertainty about a bank’s solvency which is causing the credit crisis which is killing the economy.
Improving lending would help and getting rid of the toxic assets would lead to that.
However, as the crisis is growing quickly and devastating I’d think that simply confiscating the toxic assets and returning any non-toxic parts (as in a CDO where only part is toxic) would speed the process without polluting the economy with a lot more cash than we’re going to need a year down the road. I don’t know if the law would allow this, but banks might actually be interested in doing it to fix themselves.
Ian – you’re nod toward the credit unions is exactly correct. Credit unions generally have charters that make them essentially mutual societies (co-operatives in a strong sense). It’s just that the members don’t really pay attention to the fact that they can run them.
You cover the main points: back them, give them better breaks via legislation, and regulate them with diligence (is it due, or new diligence?).
Problem with the U.S. running this plan directly is that it doesn’t have any money. And they are headed toward reduced ability to find money. Of course, they can create ‘money’, but there is no there there. Best to go barter, before we rely on the printing presses.
Yep.
Banks are the dead meat that the Lizards thrive on.
Close the banks, starve the Lizards.
Good Idea
I’m for whatever reduces the power of these bums.
Ya, I can see where I went wrong. They can just give me $4 million. That way I’ll still be middle income according to John McCain.
The “average” American would blow through that in no time at all. They just can’t resist the lure of the latest and greatest widget, to say nothing of the fancy ride fetish. Look at the horror stories we see about folks who won a million or so in the lottery. Couple years, if that, poof.
YIKES – math is wrong:
1MM is 1,000 x 1,000
1BB is 1,000 x 1,000,000
1TT is 1,000 x 1,000,000,000 = 1,000,000,000,000
If we are 300,000,000 people or 100,000,000 families
1,000,000,000,000 / 100,000,000 = 10,000 per family
I’ve been witnessing some unusual behavior. Usually my goldfinches vanish in the autumn and return in the spring. This year, I have at least one pair that is turning up every day. Been a pretty hard winter to boot.
Boy, has Joe Stiglitz changed over the years. When I knew him as a young hot-shot economist at Yale (he got his first appointment as an Associate Professor), he was just a hot Samuelson clone. Not reactionary by any means, but ideologically pretty run of the mill. His transformation is nothing short of amazing. More important, his brains are still there, and we should listen to what he has to say.
Lehman went under and everyone freaked out (quantitatively, the spread between the fed funds rate and what the banks would lend to each other went from a 1.0% (double the historical average) to nearly 4%). I think the reason for this was that the banks suddenly had to admit that they didn’t know what kind of crap was on each others books.
Once a bank goes under there’s a collective holding of the breath while they unwind their obligations to and from other banks (possibly dragging the other banks’ dirty laundry into public view) and the banks find out if they’re going to get paid. That’s when the commercial lending stops.
A couple of suggestions to Treasury…
1. The bailout money ought to be conditioned on total transparency: you go public with everything you’ve got(like on the web public with just enough of a fig leaf to maintain the privacy of individual borrowers and depositors). Think of it as open-source banking. That will result in some halacious write downs.
2. My guess is that banks that won’t take money on that basis will quickly become pariah banks – no one will lend to them and no one will borrow from them – forcing them to unwind their transactions. That’s another form of transparency, but probably a fatal kind. Banks that accept the terms and are hurt by the banks that don’t would be eligible for more funds.
3. The funds ought to include warrants allowing the government to claw back money against shareholders if the the valuations of the assets don’t hold up.
4. My guess is that the banks that survive will eventually be able to create equity by eating the market share of the banks that don’t in an eventually growing economy. Either the banks use the equity to fund a buy back of the warrants or the warrants will become valuable in the open market – either way we get some of our money back.
5. Going forward, only the transparent banks should get the privileges banks get now. Make the transparency viral by insisting that counterparties to transactions with the transparent banks have to be transparent as well.
Not sure if this would work, but i think there’s some ideas here that would improve the sector and get us something for our dollars.
Wouldn’t there be a potential role for the credit unions to have some kind of ‘Grameen operations’?
Because IIRC, credit unions started as cooperatives; philosophically, they seem as if they’d be able to implement some small-scale Grameen lending operations.
In contrast, big banks don’t seem suited to the kind of economic behavior that a Grameen lending unit would entail. They’re culture and history seem quite contrary to the stable, lower-revenue producing Grameen model.
Looks like they’ll have to print a lot more money. Downside, a loaf of bread will end up costing $1 million.
The problem is still how to identify the toxic houses. If you say it’s any owner-occupied house where the homeowner fails to make payments, and then you have the USG swoop in and seize the deed and give the owner a better loan than before, then all you do is create an incentive for nobody to pay their mortgage. Everyone will just go for the good deal. By creating the financial equivalent of an attractive nuisance, you mask the information you were after in the first place, i.e. which ones are the ones that need special attention.
Ah. A formula for re-creating t-r-u-s-t among economic players?
What a concept!
Not being an economist, your list of phases for identifying trustworthy institutions makes a lot of sense to me.
The problems is that banks are insolvent and are playing games to hide this fact. So they say that some toxic mortgage asset is worth its face value or something close to it. If they were forced to sell it now, they might only get 25 cents on the dollar for it. If valued at a pre-bubble rate, it might be worth 60 cents on the dollar.
Let’s say they have equity of X billions and liabilities of say .9X billions. Do you see the problem? Looking at their assets again. Some non-mortgage stuff may be worth its face value but most of the mortgage stuff will be worth at best only 60% of its face value. So when you add up the assets, it may only come out to say .7X billions so basically the bank is insolvent. Seizing assets would just compound this problem, because then the bank wouldn’t even have a small part of that equity to offset its liabilities and so it might go down to say .4X billions, making it even more insolvent.
Well, nothing to be done until I see it again. But I’m sure it’s not a bird I’ve seen before, and I’m pretty careful about observing features that allow me to identify it, so we’ll see.
These are good ideas. It would be nice to see them debated by people who know the details (devil being there, and all).
Aaah, Ian, when you speak, I almost think I understand money. A little. This makes a great deal of sense, and the current system, as I understand it, makes NONE AT ALL!
Spot on.
The two big problems as I see it:
– the American public does not know or understand the truth of it, that the banking system has completely collapsed and that the first half of the bailout was merely get-away money;
– what remains of the banking system is desperately trying to prevent us from breaking through our cognitive dissonance and realizing the truth, that not only did they not know what the f*ck they were doing, they were criminal in many cases where they did know what they were doing.
Note how many times the national banks and near-banks or equivalents like the GSE’s and AIG as ultimate mortgage insurer have tried to prevent homeowners from retaining any rights or from having anything approximating discovery on their contracts; they do not want to have authorities looking under the tent at the subprime mortgages that kicked off this death spiral.
And none of them can be trusted, not a one.
We are going to have to wake up to the fact that we own these guys, whether we or they like it or not, and we need to simply kick out the bastards running these places, consolidate them into a handful of cleaned out entities and then use all available tools to set floors on property values by renegotiating mortgages and renting where properties can’t be sold. The problem ultimately isn’t toxic assets, people; we’re talking about your neighborhoods here.
The problem is toxic assholes who’ve run amok for too long.
Oh Ian–thank you for this. We are about to plunge the world into a global depression to sustain the myth of banking and money creation.
I have been writing about this subject for a long time. See:
http://elegant-technology.com/ETsix.html
so I am especially happy when someone else takes up the cause. Thank you!
your – possesive
you’re – contraction for you are
strange that the smart folks here can’t conjugate
Funny you should mention a strange finch-y bird … I had a bird drop by the other day for seed, but I was not at all happy with its bill. (It seemed to be having no trouble with it, but it possessed inadequate heft for a finch.) Two prominent wingbars. Up along the Hudson.
color? other distinguishing features?
Question: What would this do to the interrelationships between the the existing banks and those in the rest of the world?
There is something about typing on comment threads that just wrecks my ability to discriminate between words that sound the same but are spelled differently (homonyms?). (Also wrecks my typing accuracy.) It’s odd, and I think that it is a real effect, not just sloppiness. Something to do with the timelag, perhaps …
Close enough to a winterized female goldfinch, as you say, but the bill did not sit right with me …
Not you’re issue. See # 25
;~P
Now you’ve made me realize that I had better drag out the guides.
This is a fairness question. There are around $5 trillion dollars of loss attached to the mortgage market. This loss needs to be spread out between the homeowner, banks, and holders of CDOs. These losses as indicated in my previous comment render most financial institutions insolvent. The government should recapitalize these banks in exchange for nationalizing them. By doing so, it facilitates aid to homeowners, freeing up credit, promoting transparency, limiting size so no banks are too big to fail. Sort of as a variant, it could simply keep the nationalized banks and use them as the extension of the Fed bank idea.
The goldfinches have a bar/stipe on the wings and are tiny compared to other varieties of finch. Their plumage darkens in the autumn and doesn’t brighten up again until sometime in the Spring. Here is the Wiki link. My goldfinches are actually a little darker than the one they show with winter plumage.
Nicely said.
Huh. First reaction is to say “Pine Siskin”.
Sorry, all… Poor grammar amongst smart folks pisses me off.
I was being lazy. The bird had stripes, and I just made the sloppy assumption that it was some kind of juvenile plumage for an immature in its first winter. So far I’ve only dipped into Peterson’s, but the slightly longer, distinctly pointed, less conical bill of a siskin (along with the heavy barring) shown there makes me think that the mystery visitor was one of those.
The econ news gets worse every week. At some point the adults will have to step forward and say that the banker don’t know what the eff the are doing and toss them out and close down the banks and start again.
Why throw good many after bad?
The money in the Tarp went straight to offshore counterparties who threatened the USA that that would stop buy US bonds and that would give the USA no cash for anything. YIKES
Has your saying, its not to much to ask but my fingers won’t listen. They loose there way.
…back to lurking
…and sulking
:(
;~P
Certainly has a ring of truth, don’t it?
“Toxic Assholes’ Robbery Plan” is much closer to the truth.
Yes.
I also think the problem is that there are sane, smart people in the administration (or advising the administration) who recognize that nationalization or some form of it is the right move. The challenge is, how to do it politically? It’s a nightmare because of the idiot Rs and the media elites are stupid (see CNBC and the WSJ).
707 … Rayne !
I could easily mistake a pine siskin for a winterized goldfinch. The finches I’ve been seeing lately have been using the rightside up finch feeder too, as opposed to the goldfinch feeder which has the holes underneath the perches because they like to eat upside down.
Maybe not right now, but I keep catching myself about to make mistakes that I would *never* make if I were writing. Unfortunately, I find that it spreads, and now I *do* have to watch myself more closely in all writing. I’m not sure man was meant to type into little tiny letterboxes.
And could we *please* have ‘edit’ back. (Does anyone remember ‘edit’?)
I should say, they are stupid and just cannot believe how badly they and their buddies screwed up and they want to privatize the losses to save their bacon.
I do it two. Just felling argumentative tonite.
;~P
I have no patience with the “political” arguement. That’s what leadership is supposed to be about. W (and Cheney; I’m halfway thru Angler) did all kinds of stuff that the voters didn’t want.
Yes, I will start a sentence and then make a change but I don’t go back far enough so I’ll miss a subject verb agreement or something like that. I also find that when I am tired or hungry I make a lot more small mistakes.
Gad, this discussion has me disorientated.
Preview is mah fren
This is a real phenomena. I can’t type but huint and peck pretty fast and makes zillions of errors, many of which I don’t even see as they appear as real words – they ARE real words, just that my crazy typing produces the WRONG real words at times and a inserts words which were part of my thoughts which I edit on the fly so I get really weird text.
I don’t know the solution and I don’t much care. When I have the time to edit my writing is fine.
Dont sweat it.
Ah yoo talkin’ to me ?
That’s cute about the upside-down-feeding goldfinches. I’ve never seen a feeder like that. In this location I’m currently feederless, so it’s a matter of spreading seeds the length of a short balcony and hoping that there are few enough squirrels at any one time that some birds can get to an empty spot.
I went out without my binoculars about two weeks ago during a break in the snow and ice and saw somebody black soaring around fairly high up, and — not having seen a crow soar — wondered if it might be a raven come over from the mountains on the west side of the Hudson on a lark, as it were.
Try it after a glass or two of vino
I think it’s more about saving their skins. if the truth got out these guys would be fearing for their lives. They have to bury their crimes because they are so outrageous and so many people milked from that tit… critters and every one who had a portfolio.
Heh. Don’t mind if I do.
Yes, it is surprising that the idea of just being honest with the American people is seen as something for suicidal chumps. I would just say look here are our problems and here is what nationalization would do, and let people make up their own minds. And I would add that this is what happened in the 30s and this is the same thing Republicans are preaching now, you know the people who bear primary responsibility for this mess.
M1 and M5? How do you get that going, the multiplier that grows the economy? Normally when the fed puts out capital it is mutiplied the M. That does not happen with bailout capital…the black hole…the crap pile of bad paper absorbs that capital (Bad Bank). Loaning to investment banks, now called, commercial banks to cover their balance sheets, does not expand the money supply either. Without growth you are still in the fractal spiral and losing jobs. Less jobs leaa disposable income.
What Obama and Geithner are doing is contrating the money supply. Instead of a mulitplier it is now a divider. Money becomes scarcer as no profit incentive drives lending even with cheap loans.
the money has to be in circulation to grow. Ordering the banks to loan won’t work until the money is flowing…changing hands. It all hinges on disposable income. The safety net, getting money back in the hands of the consumer will pump up the money flow. Deposits will be made…then loaned out. Giving banks the money is not the answer. Get the money to the consumers.
The “political” argument we’ve been hearing always seems to refer to the mythical notion of bipartisanship, which they tell us is something voters want. In reality, until Obama and the rest of the pols start worrying about reelection I don’t think they will give a damn about the voters.
remember how pissed and embarrassed Madoff’s investors were? They got fleeced but they got exposed as greedy SOBs and nobody cared about them for that. Screw em.
What is sad is that it appears that some foundations were stupid enough to invest with that ficker and got fleeced too.
What’s with the greed in this country?
What’s the matter with US treasuries in lieu of sexy “investments”?
Yes, I understand. But the banksters aren’t going to admit defeat easily. It will take capitulation by some…the ruling class won’t go down without scratching and clawing.
But you are still not getting it. Banks should not lend to unsavory characters, which is our ENTIRE business community. Would YOU lend to them? Of course not. They deserve it much less than the homeowners who sacrifice food to pay their mortgage.
Obama is a failure. He is a half-measure person with no guts to commit to any meaningful direction. I will be happy to get rid of him, his ridiculous wife and his ugly children. These are the people that stood by while white phosphorus killed other people’s children while taunting us with balls and tuxudos, while we watched innocents being snuffed out.
I can’t stand the guy anymore. He makes me sick. I will never vote for another democrat my entire life and I really sincerely hope he rots in hell for being such a phony. I take personally the fake rhetoric of the election which was such a diversion from reality. So what is more offensive? What he did to other people’s children or the fact that I said they were obviously ugly? He sincerely sucks.
Good points in this post, thanks, Ian.
Not sure if debate over this misnamed ‘nationalization’, not sure if there is any point any more. Seems as though the very term is scaring people off from what is essentially a government sponsored bankruptcy proceeding for banks that are bankrupt, but whose admission of bankruptcy will do too much damage to the real economy.
I do not see how a well designed government bankruptcy proceeding will result in the bankrupt banks underselling private banks forever. The officers would be shielded from political interference, and political desire for cheap loans to everyone would be offsett by the very real and pressing motive to recover taxpayer costs. I say ‘real and pressing’ because one danger to bailout expenditure of any kind is the danger of a flight from US government securities. This does not seem a danger in the short to medium run becuase there is a flight to safety around the globe, and they still see the US as safest. But that will not last forever, especially if the US lags the rest of the world in meaningful financial reform and if growth starts overseas more quickly (which might happen if we keep on with the current dysfunctional approach).
So, while I agree, I think that the issue of government bankruptcy proceedigns for bankrupt big banks should be kept separate from appropriate banking/credit union regulation and industrial structure.
But, I don’t disagree.
However, regardless of what becomes of the banking industry, there has to be some plan for unwinding the current taxpayer give-aways (er, rescue). There is CW talk about the problem of winding down the real economic stimulus package. I do not see that as a problem at all compared to how to wind down the current rescue.
So, regardless of what happens, how do we wind down?
When will the income streams start coming in, and how much bigger must they be in order to save the banks?
You can say that you are following the advice of Adams and Jefferson, that banking should be a public utility. One of the few things they agreed on other than that traditional dogmatic Christianity was not true and not a very good approach to religion.
The Adams and Jefferson line is a repeat but I can’t help plugging it. I just wish I had some quotes handy. Some of it is the Adam-Jefferson letters:
The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Lester J. Cappon (Editor), he University of North Carolina Press
I’ve got Cabernet, bardelino, & a great reisling.
I agree with this approach–I think if anyone can do it, our new Pres. can. I wish he would–it’s what needs to be done. Soon.
We never used to have hawks living in town but in the past ten years they’ve moved in. On any given day I can walk outside and see at least two or three soaring.
Yep.
Well, I’m a part of the business community, thank you. And yes, my local bank still lends to my business. And yes, we still employ people. We’re still hiring too. Doing our part, still.
wow, you can’t even give him 100 days?
ugly thoughts. he didn’t create the mess.
The R’s may be forcing Obi to become their worst nightmare. They don’t want to play in his sandbox even though he invited them in so they may find themselves sh8t outta sand to play on anymore.
The if Obi can see, I invited you in and you didn’t want to play now be gone and I’ll do what needs to be done and do it MY way as YOUR way got us into this mess. So whatever you Rs want I will do the opposite. Take that you jerks.
I was just making the point that W did stuff the voters didn’t want. How much easier it would be to do stuff the voters do want.
So the “political” argument is used as cover for the fact that Obama’s doing stuff that the financial industry, that financed 60% of his campaign, wants.
Nice.
Glad you are possessed of the really important issues.
Cabernet, please. *holding out glass* Thanks.
I have a question that has been bugging me for some time.
Has anyone calculated the range of reasonable market clearing prices for the current housing inventory? What would that range be under different recession scenarios? Is any reasonable income stream from the working and middle class incomes that would clear the housing market be enough to save the banks’ asses?
The discussion of bank solvency seems unreal to me because no one talks about that. And every months delay in solving the housing market problem is another nail in the banks coffin. Revenue flows delayed are similar to revenue flows that never come in -both reduce the net present value of these mortgage security assets and associated derivatives and damage the asset sheets (or am I misunderstanding something). Me am mere statistician and useless economist, not a finance person).
Or should we propose that every multi-million and billionaire by a dozen empty houses?
Great post, Ian. I do appreciate all your work on these issues. Shifting only $10K isn’t going to help Mrs. McCain with Amex very much though. /s
Good for you! What’s your business?
You know, the folks at CNBC are very much aware of the truth. I can see it breaking through frequently, since Lehman Brothers tanked. WSJ, on the other hand, is now firmly in the grips of Murdoch and as such is completely out of touch with reality.
Watch Mark Haines and Erin Burnett on CNBC’s Squawk on the Street, for example. He’s completely “awake”, although he has to occasionally say something ‘wingerish. And she knows she’s supposed to be the foil; you can predict so closely what she’s going to say (HAS to say) that you know it’s a schtick for them. He’s actually said something Keynesian and then he looks at her as if waiting, pausing for her, so she can give the predictable rebuttal. They are fully aware of how bad it is.
I think the younger team on Squawk Box know, too. It’s as if they save the hardcore winger element to wrap the day; I can’t watch them in the afternoon because Larry Kudlow simply makes me want to wretch and I can’t have that vomit on my clear maple floors…
If I had to pick a point at which their awareness began, it was two weeks BEFORE Lehman Bros. bit it.
It was the day after Obama’s acceptance speech.
The day that McCain announced Palin as his running mate.
I will never forget Greg Valliere’s rant on CNBC about the “utter madness” of this move, or John Harwood’s stunned, eyebrows-in-hairline look (even though he’s the one who broke the story). [Go on, check it out at the link, although you’ll have to bear with the stupid ad first — it’s worth the hassle to hear a died-in-the-wool conservative rant about the “insanity” of Palin.]
Where are you? Up in RI about this time of year I would see the “Reconnaisance Bombers from the North”, the Rough-Legs — long, straight wings, flap, flap, flap, glide, flap, flap, flap, glide, do that for a thousand miles.
If you want your head to really hurt, visit http://www.calculatedriskblog.com
(Sorry, I’m a linking failure.)
CR crunchs all those numbers and anything else you really were afraid to know about the situation we’re in. Commercial real estate (CRE) is the latest “ugh”…
Don’t you love how some people think that this president with a mere 2.5 weeks under his belt and not all his people in their slots is supposed to have cleaned up a mess that took more than a decade to make?
Talk about out of touch with reality.
Our government failed us. It allowed a corrupt financial / money system to take the world into the toilet… free market captialism. The wisdom of the market to innovate. hahahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahha
watertiger is upstairs!
Sarah Palin: The Republicans’ Last Best Dope.
You know, you’re right about CNBC, I just let Larry Kudlow and Joe Kernan and Charlie Gasparino make me shreik at the TV too often. Just this morning Becky Quick basically told the stupid guest he was delusional. I almost dropped my cereal spoon.
The WSJ will never change.
True. So who benefits?
The problem with the credit union idea is that many of those institutions are suffering huge losses right now, as well – at least in the Southern California market. The 12/08 earnings reports should be available by about mid-February and I’m expecting many of them to look pretty ugly. Why did this happen? For the same reason it happened in large banks. CEO’s got big ideas about what they could do and over-extended themselves…mortgages, commercial lending, and subsidiary corporations doing insurance, trust, brokerage stuff and more. Pretty egregious failures, at least what I’ve seen…
Ian’s right here.
Of course, Obama can’t just come right out and say he’s going to nationalize the banks. But what he can do is give the rest of the TARP money to the credit unions — which would then inject it straight into the economy.
That, coupled with the stimulus and the reviving factory orders (one good thing about the high oil prices earlier this year — it’s made domestic factory goods competitive cost-wise with exports), should get us back on track within a year, and better than we were by 2012.
Yes, I read CR, but have not seem any estimates there.
Does anyone even know what kind of cash flow out of housing services would be required to make the banks healthy? And if so, how would that square with disposable income of the working and middle class population available? You could use some rule of thumb for sustainable fraction (say 20% to 30%).
Of course, if know one knows what kind of cash flow is necessary, then there may not be much point, unless one did the calcuation under various scenarios and realized that anything reasonable would not be enough.
It would depend on the expectations built into some of those wonderful sophisticated models, with parameters estimated with ridiculously insufficient data using statistical malpractice.
I’d say the firms that caused the problems benefit–the ones that bought/sold the CDOs etc. It delays them having to face reality and “mark them to market prices”.
I am optimist, and hope that some change will come, and even more ridulously optimistic that the change will not be taken out of ordinary peoples’ hides.
Ian for Treasury Secretary.
Will the Canadian thing be a problem?
Oh, yeah. But not all, or even most, credit unions succumbed to the groupthink greed and stupidity. That’s why they’re the ones making the loans the banks won’t do.
this is the blog you need to read about the economy:
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/
Ian would be a kick ass SecTres.
I hereby declare Ian a retroactive Minnesotan, thereby making him eligible. Any place his feet touch is automatically considered part of the State of Minnesota so long as he’s touching. There, that should take care of that.
Heh. Bet you missed the morning that Mark Haines told the ‘winger PR person to knock it off, that he was sick of the partisan crap.
I spewed my coffee, laughed for a half hour over that one. Blew me away.
Wish I’d have seen Quick dish it, would have made my morning.
Kernan has his moments, but I think he’s supposed be the foil to Quintanilla and Faber whenever Faber pops in — supposed to be more like a class clown instead of the smart kid like Faber.
I meant more like, if most of the banks are going to fail, are any of the former players going to be left standing in a bettered position? * Cough * chase * Cough *.
If we can stay clear of a deflationary spiral, I would say look at the pre-bubble prices for valuation purposes. These go out the door though if we go into depression. On the other hand, we won’t be able to clear the housing inventory for some time. There are supposed to be some 4-5 million units in or up for foreclosure by the end of this year. That will take a long time to work through and the situation is made worse by the banks’ unwillingness to lend to even qualified customers.
This is why we need a comprehensive plan to all this, –one which will keep as many people in their homes either by refinancing with cramdowns or switching to a renting arrangement; or making credit available to new home buyers.
Now you are getting to it. Revenue stream for the property loan. When the foreclosure comes give the property owner a lease option to buy back at markey value. Then the revenue stream returns, the property owner is a motivated buyer. The property is managed by someone who cares, the neighborhood blight is reduced. Must have disposable income. Must have disposable income. Must have disposable income. It is not the banks it is the assets. Moct banks have big credit card asseats…accounts recievable. With credit union expanding to replace bank services those jobs are replaced with a less costly service.
Disposable income keep the cash register ringing stupid. The banks are a casino screw them. get the stimulus into the hands of the consumer.
Stiglitz stated in the article,
“The UK has been hit hard because the banks took on enormously large liabilities in foreign currencies. Should the British taxpayers have to lower their standard of living for 20 years to pay off mistakes that benefited a small elite?” he said.
“There is an argument for letting the banks go bust. It may cause turmoil but it will be a cheaper way to deal with this in the end. The British Parliament never offered a blanket guarantee for all liabilities and derivative positions of these banks,” he said.
He was specifically refering to the UK situation and the foreign currency exposure. It’s a leap of faith that he would be suggesting the same solution for the US. I’m not saying that the concept of two tier banking system is not intriging, however his was not an endorsement of your ideas.
Be a man, don’t block me again, your bigger than that.
Yup we have them year round drinking in our little pond! Of course this IS in the Bay Area Ca. We get groups of twenty or so visiting at a time. In the nesting season we get them in smaller grouyps, we love their chatter also..
Hi Martha thanks for the contribution. Krugman wrote in the NYT today Citi and Bof A were worth around $50 billion…what have we lent them for the bad paper? Over that.
Since some commenters mentioned Stiglitz’ transformation and insufferable arrogance, thought I would add something about his outspokeness.
The international financial aspects of the crisis have not been discussed much, here or elsewhere, but I think Stiglitz is spouting off like a person possessed because I think he feels vindicated on an international level, as well as wrt to domestic financial regulation.
Stiglitz really got slammed when he criticized Washington Consensus approach to Asian and other financial crises at end of 20th century. The macro people really slammed his views as nonsense (and, well, we see how well the macro people have their act together now).
But, Stiglitz said that in the long run the Washington Consensus approach would cause big problems. The many countries involved in these crises, and also countries that merely felt vulnerable to them would hord precautionary savings and liquidity. He feels this is exactly what happened, leading to the problem of the international “savings glut” and imbalances in international financial flows and trade.
So, I think Stiglitz feels as if he is one of the handful of analysts who predicted how things would develop strating way back 15 years ago. So, he is like a bull in a China shop.
If you go back and read and watch some clips, some folks, like Krugman pulled in their horns and hedged a little after the horrible (and it will be always horrible and incompetent) recovery from the 2000-2001 recession turned into a barely mediocre late business cycle expansion.
But Stiglitz never lost his nerve or backed off. I watched an interview with Stiglitz did during the oil price spike, and he correctly called that too. Said it was a temporarly thing, and business cycle would run oil prices up and down, and that financial sector fragility was the big threat.
Well, break the connection between foreclosure and eviction and you staunch the massive bleeding that almost every foreclosure currently causes.
One solution is Dragon Naturally Speaking. Then you can go hands free and let your thoughts fly…
I think the other part of the equation is giving money to state banks instead of national banks. Many state banks are run much more conservatively than the national banks, and were typically invested closer to home like the credit unions, but hurting because their own assets devalued as the entire housing market crashed.
Need to keep in mind that the Bush administration ensured that the national banks did not have to comply with typically more stringent state banking laws — guess which kinds of banks were more likely to write subprime loans…
In Michigan I believe that housing advocates, state banks and legislators all came to agreement on a plan whereby the state banks would receive fed monies to write new mortgages negotiated inside a new 90-day window, with additional support from new bankruptcy legislation that allowed the old mortgage to be set aside.
But wouldn’t you know it…a Republican mega-donor in the foreclosure business managed to scuttle the legislation last year, legislators had to start all over again after the new term started. Even the state banks were furious about this.
We’re hoping that this time the legislation has a bit more success when it gets introduced as early as tomorrow.
Re the cash flow part of your argument, what cash flows? For there to be cash flows you need credit flowing and that isn’t happening and unlikely to happen in any meaningful way short of nationalization.
thanks for the confirmatory view. That is exactly what I am getting at -how to get to somewhere near medium term equilibrium cash flows as quickly as possible. I think a new Home Owners Loan Corporation the way to go.
The GOP proposals for ’solving housing first’ sound like proposals to puff up the bubble again, as far as I understand them.
It amazes me that so little attention has been given to the fundamentals of the real economy here, and how the dysfuctional financial system has messed up the usual price signals. For example, rents have been rising due to flight from homes, and only recently started to fall toward new equilibirum price of housing services. It was rising at critical points during the housing asset price bust.
So, everything has been messed up in the real economy for some time, including the precious price signals that the ultra free market people love so much.
By ‘here’ I mean the CW heard in media and government, not the wisdom of Ian or FDL!
It amazes me that so little attention has been given to the fundamentals of the real economy here,
I would disagree with Stiglitz over this because it wasn’t the business cycle but excessive speculation by a lot of the same actors who were involved in the housing bubble. And as I laid out in item 365 of my scandals list, this speculation goes back to 2004 not 2007 and begins even as the housing bubble does.
Well I have been talking about the need for a new industrial policy to keep any stimulus from sputtering out. I think so much time is spent with the paper economy because that is what the Treasury and Fed are fixated on and that’s where the trillions have been going.
I am not saying I agree with everything Stiglitz thinks, just pointing out he has a grand theory, and my understanding of what it was.
As for oil prices, I have no idea what Stiglitz thinks is the relative component of speculation and real flow demand to price increase. I don’t believe the exact proportion is important to his grand theory.
I may be a foolish economist, but I am still agnostic on that, and am waiting to see the price response to economic recovery (one reason I am very eager for effective stimulus, I want my curiosity satisifed on causes of oil price spike).
So if we accept that it’s just too hard to spot the toxic assets within the CDO structure, in order to neutralize them where they currently sit (for example, by selling to a ‘bad’ bank), then what would it take to set up a safety net to catch the “toxic loans” as they actually fail? In other words, let’s have a law that REQUIRES every failed loan to go to court where the USG is empowered to acquire the loan at a significant discount (so long as the mortgagee isn’t just faking it to get the break), and REQUIRES the current lender to take that deal. Then it’s up to the USG to either offer the mortgagee an affordable refi, or else rent them the property, or if they don’t want to stay, then sell or rent the house to someone else. This way the toxics kind of naturally precipitate out of the banks’ holdings, and the USG gets investments. Eventually confidence builds that the banks are no longer holding toxic assets, and interbank lending frees up. Eventually banks can purchase the USG loans and the USG gets out of the landlord business.
I guess the problematic part is the “eventually” part, huh?
I’m not sure if a recovery will give you that because at some point peak oil will begin to exert a price effect. The main thing is to take non-commercial traders out of the market, increase margins, and make sure markets are transparent and regulated.
Lets hope for better macroeconomic policy, so we can find out. I will be glad to have my agnosticism removed one way or the other asap.
You’re making too much sense, Ian. Heck, if we’d just set up our own bank with that $700 billion, we’d be out of this thing in months. Next time, I hope someone tries that first.
Yeah. Bankruptcy court is where we are looking for this required renegotiation to take place — but there are two wrinkles.
First, the national banks and mortgage brokers don’t want any of their mortgages to go to court in any way, shape or form; I suspect that they are worried about discovery.
Second, many “eligible” folks are actively avoiding anything they receive from a bank, let alone from a court; we need to turn around their skepticism or cynicism about the process, make it completely transparent and advertise widely cases that are successful in order to win these people over who’ve been burnt too many times.
If we can get around these two points, we are much closer to “eventually”.
This piece will scare the crap out of the banks Ian.:) Take on the Payday loan companies next!
Interesting. Well, maybe the deal on the legislation will have to include a “modesty panel” of discovery obfuscation for the CDO holders, for example maybe the servicing bank can be empowered to handle the litigation so the CDO never has to get unrolled in public. Actually I’m not sure I’d even force the mortgagee to go through a formal bankruptcy, maybe we need a new term like “Mortgage Resolution Proceeding” so that the mortgagee isn’t unnecessarily tarred as happens in a bankruptcy.
On your second point, I agree a PR campaign should be able to do the trick.
Ian,
I certainly agree with the sentiment of kicking out the middleman. It’s something of an anachronism to provide fed lending only to commercial banks. It’s explicitly inefficient from a fundamental market-function perspective.
The only glaring issue I see is that doing as your suggesting, as with most things unfortunately, requires that we have a government that is adversarial to capital aggregation in corporate entities not beholden to protecting the public trust; rather than complicit or cooperative with it.
At the moment we don’t have any regulatory, administrative, or legislative bodies who have adversarial relationships with exploitive industry; save for maybe the FDIC.
This paper by Abraham and Hendershott includes a basic equilibrium model to estimate where the momentum of prices in a metropolitan-type market is likely to end up. The pdf file is here.
Ian, I know you probably won’t see this comment (Way EPU’D), but your post makes so much sense. Thank-you :)
And, have you sent it to the White House? ( you really should)
Wanted to note that I made the same point, I called it amputating Wall Street, as did Willem Buiter, he called it the “good bank” solution.