Frist!

House plan would create 4 million jobs by 2010

That’s probably the number of jobs that will be lost in the next half year.

Well done Obama! Rs played you bigtime. As Rachel said, if there’s a bad bill in an attempt to bring in the Rs, and the Rs refuse, can we please have a good bill?

The obstructions have been self-identified.

The people are not amused.

ooops – obstructionists

The comments on this post by Scarecrow are very much on point to what you are writing here, including the Think Progress link, as well as Digby’s take on it.

In short, my take is that it is almost impossible in this media climate to pass the right bill and that the Obama administration did the best that they can from a political standpoint. [I did think that they were a little naive in thinking that the GOP would negotiate in good faith, but that’s Obama’s MO from his days at Harvard, apparently]

Others within that thread disagreed with me, stating that (if I may paraphrase) he could have shown better leadership and just done the thing right as there were no second chances to get this thing right, regardless of what the GOP, or the Blue Dogs for that matter, said or did.

Obama should notify the networks that he wants some prime time to address the public.
Then he should explain to us exactly how the Reptards screwed him over.
At that point he should put us on notice that he will not be reaching across the aisle to these people, they can do the reaching if they have something productive to add to the discussion.
The Dems in Congress ought to strip the tax provisions from stimulus, put back in the Medicaid provisions, add some more infrastructure spending, and pass the bill on their own.
In other words, grow a pair.

Either the tanning bed in the capitol gym is goofy or someone needs to check Hatches liver functions because he is looking really jaundiced……

Here’s Podesta on postpartisanship. It sounds like the usual D meaningless pablum.

I think he was willing to have a dialogue with Republicans. So far, that dialogue has been largely one in which it’s good-natured but the Republicans don’t seem to really want to come to the table and talk seriously about what needs to be done for the country. So be it — that’s their choice. But I think he did want to change the tone in Washington. He wanted to talk to people across the political spectrum. He wanted to open up the government to people from all perspectives around the country. That’s what WhiteHouse.gov is about. That’s what the transition — change.gov — was about, to try to solicit ideas from across the political spectrum to meet the big challenges.

But I would not confuse that with an idea that he’s compromising on his big goals of trying to deal with the very difficult economic circumstances we face and deal with the big challenges this country faces on energy, education, health care, and the other things.

Something about fiddling and burning comes to mind.

I left you a note in EPUland yesterday about the “best you can do.”

There’s this thing called leadership. I see no signs that Ds have any nodding acquaintance with it. I’d remind you that a prez with little leadership skills nonetheless accomplised a large part of his goals, which were things the voters didn’t want.

If you are going to make excuses for Ds, well then, you’ll get what you ask for: nothing.

Well done Obama! Rs played you bigtime. As Rachel said, if there’s a bad bill in an attempt to bring in the Rs, and the Rs refuse, can we please have a good bill?

that would be magnificent strategy;

“the republicans have refused the bill they helped compose, it was far too little with far too many flaws, since we see we cannot expect republicans to do anything in good faith we have crafted a bill that will do far more for the economy and does not need their support.”

something to that affect would be nice

So now we have the Lilly Ledbetter thing signed on my TV. As though that is a D victory. It’s such a washed down bill, the Ds should be ashamed. For example, only two years restoration? Under what “rule of law” is that fair?

Not sure I’m worried about that — Podesta is better than most.

More concerned with silent Dems, and Blue Dogs piling on with Republicans (next post).

But what do you do if no one is willing to advocate your positions in the mainstream media? I saw Maddow’s interview with that Republican Congresssman last night, and she was the only one that I have seen in the past week that actually fought back against the CW BS that he was spewing. The Think Progress report backs this up with empirical evidence.

I actually personally know one of the Blue Dogs who voted against the bill and while his heart is the right place, he considers himself a moderate as he listens to what the networks are saying because he thinks that that is what the public thinks. “Moderate” Democrats have bought into the myth that the media is on their side and propagates the feelings of the general public.

A lot of “progressives” refuse to understand the role that media plays in shaping actual policy. This whole episode is a prime example of why it is near impossible to get the proper thing done when the Democrats cannot come up with a proper media strategy because they believe that the media (and the Village) are their friends.

The Republics are just following orders from their Pope Rush.
Do not arouse the wrath of the great and powerful Rush.

here’s krugman’s comment on passage of h.r.1 last night: Zero lower bound

The House has passed the stimulus bill with not a single Republican vote.

Aren’t you glad that Obama watered it down and added ineffective tax cuts, so as to win bipartisan support?

just because the republicans hated the bill for all kinds of made up and stupid reasons does not magically make it the bill we needed.

But what do you do if no one is willing to advocate your positions in the mainstream media?

How do you know what the media will do if you don’t try to influence them?

SCHIP: I rest my case.* The Ds media strategy is less than lame. It’s criminal.

*In case you don’t get the point, how many voters in the country understand what SCHIP is? Isn’t there a catchier phrase the Ds could have devised?

puss limbough?

Hey, I am with you on the leadership thing. I am also with you on the policy level.

The issue is that, from a communication standpoint, the progressives just don’t get that the MSM are not their friends. It does not help that, as Jane says, their some really bad “Blue Dogs” who are really Republicans in most of their policies.

As an aside, does someone have a link to a post on how a Blue Dog actually differs from a Republican from a policy standpoint?

Hey this round Jane, I think actions speak louder than words.

Positive Actions:

Obama worked swift and at length to develop a stimulus Bill

Gave the GOP ample time to add and have input (meeting and stating, “No pride of authorship.) A very reasonable approach and quite inclusive.

He gives into some GOP requests and tightens other areas of the Bill

Never stated anything negative about the Repugs

Negative actions:

Repugs on talk shows whining instead of working on the Bill

Came up with “peanuts” in terms of actual legislative language

Not one Repug House vote to balance out the President’s show of bipartisanship

Now Repugs are still whining in the media but the President uses language of “grateful”

Outcomes

I do agree, this is a continuance of Repug disfunction and they are building their “hero” complex.

Repugs are whining that there is not enough stimulus in the Bill. Obama knows this. So now, I think Obama can get his “bigger” stimulus package. Obama gets gaming strategy. And in that vein your comment:

This isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning, and our leaders need to stop doing the 2010 cower and start articulating a coherent vision of progressive governance. Because the alternative leaves Obama with nowhere to go, and that is unthinkable.

…is spot on.

Podesta is better than most

Is that what we should expect? Soft bigotry, and all that.

In short, my take is that it is almost impossible in this media climate to pass the right bill …

my problem is that we don’t actually know, because virtually no one was making the case for the right bill (save some progressive economists and dfh bloggers and commenters). i’ll give the dems a pass when they try and fail – but i am beyond sick and tired of the caving without trying.

communication standpoint, the progressives just don’t get that the MSM are not their friends

Sounds like you missed my point, which is that the Ds have NO communications stratgey. You can’t put all the blame on the media when the Ds have done nothing to try to influence it.

Hey, selise. The Ds are busy cutting down trees in forests where no one can hear.

OT
What is this cocktail piano music played the the Ledbetter signing?

How do you know what the media will do if you don’t try to influence them?

ITA! The only thing that I can say about this is what Randy Rhodes, who I don’t always agree with, says: “The media won’t ask you back a second time if you say something that they don’t want to hear.”

It all goes to what is acceptable discourse (help me out with that post link, Jane!)in the MSM. Clear deficit spending/stimulus is not within the realm of acceptable discourse. It should be, but it’s not.

The only place Democrats and lefties in general have anything resembling a level playing field is online — and even there we’ve had to spend the first few years playing catchup as the righties beat us to it.

But what do you do if no one is willing to advocate your positions in the mainstream media?

how the hell can we expect the people in the media to advocate for our positions if we won’t do it first? i watched a lot of the “debate” and the Ds sucked (and that’s being kind) in explaining what was happening or what was really needed in any kind of coherent way.

I hope that the dems in the senate negotiate with the rethugs not from a standpoint of concessions but from a standpoint of leaving house rethug shit in.

Defeatism.

un-knit those brows, honey. you’re giving me a headache.

is there NOTHING good under the sun?

*sighs and ducks for cover*

Not really, I think I get yours. I think the issue is that they think that the MSM are their friends and that they therefore do not need a communication strategy on certain issues.

Another part of the problem is that Steny and Pelosi are still in bed with K Street. The right does a good job a demonizing how “left” and “liberal” they are when in fact they are not. As Eric Alterman says, the right does a wonderful job in moving the goalposts on any kind of debate. This is especially true when it comes to economic debates.

More concerned with silent Dems, and Blue Dogs piling on with Republicans (next post).

something i learned from watching the house fisa kabuki was that the blue dogs were the excuse the leadership used to do what they, the leadership, wanted to get done. don’t know if that’s the case here, but i am very, very skeptical.

Good Morning Jane. Nice to see your shining face and piquant copy. ;->

Robert Parry of The Consortium has been one of the voices crying in the wilderness for ages now, begging liberals to start creating and backing non-conservative media.

But lefties, particularly rich ones, are far less committed and driven than are righties. Compare Barbra Streisand’s lukewarm toying with the idea of buying a cable network in the 1990s with Howard Ahamanson’s spending hundreds of millions on taking over the Anglican and Episcopalian churches worldwide.

If I was Obama, I would have Levin and Voinovich team up and add more stimulus/infrastructure to the Bill in the Senate.

Steny and Pelosi are still in bed with K Street

Now you’re talking. The Ds, in fact, do have a media strategy. It is to say what the media wants to hear because that’s what will get the corporate contributions to campaigns.

lol. i really think they’re not even cutting down the trees.

sorry, don’t know about the music, had the radio turned down and am tuning in to listen to senate budget hearing now….

Well, it’s hard to see anything good. Perhaps you could suggest a silver lining.

I really do not like reinforcing Republican memes like that as if they have any application at all.

Podesta is associated with Obama and his attack dog options are limited. He’s an extension of what I think is a successful tactic of statesmanship on the part of Obama. It’s up to others to get up in the GOPs grill.

The right does a good job a demonizing how “left” and “liberal” they are when in fact they are not.

I think you’re right on that. They just hammer and hammer, and the MSM slurps it up, then regurgitates on cue, unless it’s Matthews, in which case it’s every other cue…

I just thought that the hour of the day and the WH setting were a little inappropriate for cocktail music. *g*

Look at the Blue Dog votes on this bill. All but a handful voted against it.

Just as their ideological ancestors the Dixiecrats kept FDR from any meaningful backing of civil rights for black Americans or to keep the New Deal benefits from reaching black Americans, they have been working to keep any meaningful and beneficial government intervention that might benefit nonwhites, especially urban ones, from happening.

It’s not terribly wise to count on Sen. V. He’s the consummate instant-waffle machine.

Using the same formulas from Biden’s top economist which calculated this bill would create upwards of 3 million jobs. The replublican version would create 6.2 million jobs. This is to be a stimulus bill not a spending bill. infrastructure is important but it is not a effective form of stimulus. Infrastructure projects didn’t stimulate throughout history, most noteably in Japan who limped through a horrendous resession after their own real estate bust 15 plus years ago. Look at the facts, the republicans are finally growing a pair and standing up for what is right and proven. Taking out birth control funding is mostly because it isn’t stimulus, unless you take Speaker Nancy’s view that population control is a stimulus, but that is just aweful. Keep money in the private sector, we don’t need to pay $347 billion in interest on a stimulus package chuck full of spending that doesn’t stimulate.

Well, we certainly disagree on Obama’s “statemanship.”

Now you’re talking. The Ds, in fact, do have a media strategy. It is to say what the media wants to hear because that’s what will get the corporate contributions to campaigns.

Which is why we need to ban all private financing of political campaigns and and budget about $2 billion in a national campaign fund every election season. Not only would it shorten campaign seasons rather nicely, it would guarantee a level playing field.

why bother. I just dig for acorns in the snow like the rest of the squirrels, save ‘em up, and work ‘em for all they’re worth. If the hauteur think they came up with the ideas, all the better, and less need for my nutcracker.

Me?

Absolutely not. I just think that what we as DFH’s need to do is convince our Congress critters that the media is not our friend. We need to move the debate so that what we are advocating from a policy level becomes “acceptable discourse.”

Having Rachel Maddow have her own show would have been unthinkable 2 years ago. Her having an audience is the DFH crowd as a “base.”

I try to step outside the blogosphere bubble from time to time and sample morning shock jock radio as well as news talk. It is amazing how Republican frames find their way into apparently straight news stories.

I have been very clear on all of the postings that I do that I think that the best method to have a true progressive agenda is to overturn CW by debunking, one citizen at a time, conservative CW. That is, if you hear something that is patently false in polite company, challenge it with facts! We can comment back and forth on a message board and that is useful in the terms of hashing out facts, but if those facts don’t get communicated to a general audience, you don’t achieve anything!

We’ll just have to agree to disagree that, under the current circumstances, this was the best they could do. The job is certainly not over, but a long shot.

It’s called “good cop, bad cop”.

Steny and Pelosi are still in bed with K Street.

ding. ding. ding.

and not just the two of them.

Heh. Had a well worn path in the snow from the tree the squirrels live in to the tree under which they’d burried their nuts.

Unfortunately, this is not a time when searching for buried nuts will work. Something much more bold is called for, otherwise the economy will get a lot worse. Thus my frustration.

by any other name…

Indeed. The issue of course is to overturn the “free speech” decision in regard to campaign financing. With this Supreme Court, notgonnahappen, unfortunately.

Normally, I would agree but on a stimulus package, I think there may be opportunity with him.

He and Levin worked many days without sleep to come up with an auto industry stimulus package and Voinovich was ramrodded by fellow Repugs.

He’s not running again. Honestly, I would have Levin and Voinovich together present more infrastructure spending to go into the bill.

Then I would sit back and watch Sen. Repugs vote on the bill and await the media response.

But Rachel is now part of the MSM and not because Ds had any strategy to make it happen. If they did, it would have happened sooner.

Look at the Blue Dog votes on this bill. All but a handful voted against it.

again, i don’t know about this specific vote so it may be a straight vote…. but i’ve watched enough votes on a year of fisa actions in the house to know that votes can be and are gamed especially with the blue dogs. my working hypothesis is that the leadership supports blue dogs because they give the leadership the maximum flexibility to do what they, the leadership, wants to do.

Always thought that ploy was shopworn. It’s so obvious, and even on TV, it rarely works. And who are the D bad cops anyhow?

Think Progress says that Republicans outnumbered Democrats 2 to 1 on the cable news shows talking about the stimulus.

So what is Obama waiting for get on the TV start convincing people.

I really do not like reinforcing Republican memes like that as if they have any application at all.

Thank you! I shall rinse and repeat, with your kind permission. ;->

That is exactly the point. The reason there are no Dem talking heads to defend the programmeis that the producers of the news shows don’t invite them. I think your perception of the Blue Dog’s perceptions are also on point. I have a number of so-called Democratic colleagues whose notion of the news seems to be stuck somewhere back in 1971. They are in complete denial over what has happened to the way the American people learn about their political system. The feedbacks now have to be immediate, as they are when people lose their homes, their pensions and their jobs, and as in Katrina, before they start to react. That’s too slow.

I’m hoping Obama’s people are getting on this, and pronto.

Rush Limbaugh is now on cnbc. Now that tells you a lot about both the Ds and the Rs media strategy.

who are the D bad cops anyhow?

the Rs.

and when that doesn’t work they pull out the blue dogs.

Being involved with the original Dean campaign, I know that he got torpedoed by the monied interests, including the Kennedy clan, who got behind their friend Kerry in Iowa.

It is why we have a DNC brought to you by AT & T.

BTW, Obama gets economic advice from the Chicago boys, just like Bill Clinton did. Bill Clinton did more harm to the progressive cause on an economic level by signing Graham-Leach, NAFTA and declaring “the era of big Government is over.” I honestly think it is a miracle that any kind of spending stimulus passed in the first place.

I think that if you polled the American Public 90 percent would say that Clinton was a “liberal” or “extremely liberal,” when in fact he was not, especially from the economic point of view. That is what we are dealing with, overcoming this false CW. I will not rest, however, until I do my part to put a dent in overcoming said false CW.

Today people are talking about Nationalizing the Banks if we do nothing or pass a bad stimulus bill whats next the Hedgefunds start failing?
Countries start defaulting on their debt?
Jane is right every month we wait costs money.

Whats he talking about when was the last time he talked on a network that was not Fox?

Well, when you put it that way …

The reason there are no Dem talking heads to defend the programmeis that the producers of the news shows don’t invite them.

but the Ds don’t even defend or even explain good programs when they are making their statements on the House or Senate floor. if the Ds were actually doing that, but weren’t able to break through in the media, i’d have a different opinion. but how can i blame it solely on the media (as fucked up as that is) when the Ds can’t even do the job on cspan?

Democrats afraid to speak out. Why aren’t they making the argument that Republicans are trying to block an upgrade of the electrical grid to Oklahomans freezing in the dark in the midst of a snowstorm?

I agree, If house democrats want to pass this 830 $illion DOLLAR bill with resounding support from the American people, they should organize a PR campaign and SELL it on the merits. The House i snot doing a a big favor by spending our future tax dollars, they are making an argument that sending it is worth it.

Nationalize banks. If you are not lending in a meaningful way, the FDIC should assume they are insolvent and take them over.

I never said I was starting my search only just now. Actually, I’ve been ready for this for quite some time and even, gasp, working at it for years, to some gainful end, albeit not personal monetary gain.

Just call me nuts ingenuous.

no. not ingenious, by choice and natural inclination, since ’tis off-putting.

No, I would say that the DFHs did, not the Dems!

My local newspaper features a media critic clone of Howard Kurtz. He goes out of his way to equate Maddow and Olbermann with O’Reilly, even though that they have diametrically opposed debating styles. I actually had quite a heated private e-mail exchange with this guy in which he stated that he was an admirer of Mr. Kurtz. Mr. Kurtz who get his talking points from this wife, a Republican consultant.

Conventional wisdom is that the media is liberal and that the media is a friend of the Democratic party. The Democratic party believes this CW. It is our job as DFHs to change that.

Once the House and Senate version go into conference committee, can’t the bill then be changed to one that will actually be helpful? It’s already been proven that a bill can be passed without R support. Why not do it then?

I try to step outside the blogosphere bubble from time to time and sample morning shock jock radio as well as news talk. It is amazing how Republican frames find their way into apparently straight news stories.

They’ve had decades to do this, starting even before the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 (the move that made coast-to-coast syndicated hate radio and FOX possible). Even really smart people have been brainwashed by this. For example:

On Monday, I gave a speech to a local group of business professionals that included actuaries, lawyers and experts in a number of areas, many of who had been peers/colleagues. The topic I was given was “the Top Ten Things I Wish Someone Had Told me About Retirement”. Given the expertise of the audience, I kept it light and funny and based on feedback, succeeded in keeping every one’s attention.

Afterwards, a woman I didn’t know came up and asked why I didn’t mention tax cuts as the best possible solution to the crisis that both social programs (Social Security & Medicare) and our economy in general currently face. Aside from the fact that I made every attempt at being non-political, and intentionally did not offer an opinion on solutions, I was intrigued enough to play along. She went on about how much tax cuts would spur the economy, encourage investment and generally solve all of the country’s problems.

After she was done, I asked her how capital gains tax cuts worked when no one was realizing any capital gains; how income tax cuts worked when people are unemployed and have no income; how business tax cuts work when businesses are closing or cannot get capital to start or expand. She responded that tax cuts had caused the economic boom of the Reagan and Bush Junior years and if repeated, would drive our economy to new heights. Since she really never answered my questions, we parted with a smile and a hand shake.

dang eCAHN. some perfectly capable people make it work. i commend them, but naming them would be counterproductive, so don’t even ask.

This is a great anthem for the GOP. Was posted on five thirty eight. Pass it on.

Groucho Marx: From the 1932 movie “Horse Feathers”

“I’m Against it”

Music and Lyrics By: Bert Kalmar and Harry Ruby

Song Lyrics:
[Groucho]
I don’t know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, I’m against it.
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I’m against it.

Your proposition may be good,
But let’s have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I’m against it.
And even when you’ve changed it or condensed it,
I’m against it.

I’m opposed to it,
On general principle, I’m opposed to it.

[chorus] He’s opposed to it.
In fact, indeed, that he’s opposed to it!

[Groucho]
For months before my son was born,
I used to yell from night to morn,
Whatever it is, I’m against it.
And I’ve kept yelling since I first commenced it,
I’m against it!

Apparently Rush had some op-ed in the WSJ. Pumping corp tax cuts in the snippet I saw.

Rush is a private citizen. He is a fiscal conservative. He is not stratagizing with the republicans, come on. He may voice along with many other talk show personalities on radio and TV and express their opinions with grandure but they also voice opinions that merit discussion. These “horrible” conservatives invite liberal attacks and let them speak loudly on thier shows because in many cases they have a intelligent retort. Liberal media just wants them to shut up becuase 1. lack of information or insightful knowledge of the issues. or 2. they don’t want people to see the options they have because then people would see that government is really designed to give people all the tools neccessary to make this country great. The government should depend on the people not the people depending on the government. Every government intrusion comes with a loss of freedom for her people. The government has set up rules that all must abide by, black, white, young, old, rich and poor. People need to stop crying to change the rules and instead focus on using the rules to their greatest potential. A handout and help can only get you so far. You don’t take in an injured animal to keep it forever, you help it recover than let it go prosper on its own power.

re clinton era deregulation. maybe you were not aware how much i despise bill clinton (for a whole host of reasons, deregulation being just one of them)? sorry another diary: Which Idiot Decided Not to Regulate Credit Default Swaps?

No, I would say that the DFHs did, not the Dems!

I agree with that. Just saying that if the Ds had a strategy to put responsible reporters in place, it would be happening more & sooner.

They looked like a bunch of petulant, narcissistic brats and did a nice job of making Obama appear measured and statesmanlike by comparison.

Which is what I think Obama was out to do.

It amazes me how often he still gets sold short in the political strategy game; particularly after we have seen him play it so well to this point.

You just can’t tell me Obama really thought his visit to Congress and the promise of a cocktail party was going to get him Republican votes.

No, he was about appearing above the fray and delivering on his promise of ‘reaching out’ to Republicans.

Now they are the ones who look small and petty, and as he runs with his agenda, he can forevermore say “I tried”.

In terms of developing our own media, one significant development is emergence Internet radio. People who have internet phones, e.g., the iPhone, can pick up a couple thousand radio stations wirelessly. I’m told that:
– kids no longer listen to radio but to stuff they download to the iPods.
– the appearance of wireless Internet radio is killing the prospects for satellite radio.

The point is that setting up an Internet radio facility requires no broadcast license and not much equipment. (There are, however, Internet access charges to consider.)

I feel sorry for Obama. It is damn difficult to work in an emergency situation with Vichy Democrats and Romanov Republicans.

Exactly. Dr. Maddow if anything is almost too easily mau-maued into being “balanced”, yet she is treated as if she were this crazed fringe falangist. Actually, I take that back: Crazed fringe falangists have a much easier time getting on TV.

Remember what happens whenever somebody like MoveOn tries to buy TV ad time? They get rejected much of the time, whereas ultra-wacky Swift Boat and Freedom’s Watch ads get waved on through.

I think I am with you on this. I think the problem is this:

1. Democrats think media is their friend and advocate, especially on economic matters.
2. They therefore think that they do not need a communication strategy because they think that the media IS their communication strategy.
3. The Republican say that the media is liberal, the Democrats believe them because they’re all friends when they go out at night together.
4. The Democrats don’t get the right policy passed.
5. Rinse and repeat.

Breaking: Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act Signed into Law by President Obama
Christy’s upstairs

The old saying “there’s more than one way to skin a cat” seems to apply. I’ll put my money on it working.

Oh I don’t know. I think if you tell people your goal is bipartisanhip, and the results show that your strategy was a complete failure, it doesn’t make you appear to be a statesman.

have you ever been homeless, or been denied health insurance, or have your source of employment evaporate through no fault of your own? lost everything you own through catastrophic occurrence totally beyond your own control?

no. don’t bother answering. i’m not really that interested, and already suspect what i’d hear.

The WSJ’s editorial page has long been a blight, even before Rupert Murdoch bought up their parent company. They and the newsroom have been at war for decades — though with Murdoch in control, the editorial staff has won that war.

Remember the whole “Clinton raped a woman” slander? That was being shopped around to, and rejected by, various news outlets, including the WSJ’s newsroom. So the WSJ’s editors waited until the newsroom boss went on vacation, then smuggled it onto the editorial pages. That’s how it got the first serious media play.

heh.

how long you think before they see it? i already see some tread marks right across their plump little egos.

LOL!

Oh, come on. Rush himself said he was the “precinct captain” for the 1992 Republican takeover of Congress. It was to facilitate his going national that the Republicans took out the Fairness Doctrine in 1987.

I know about the WSJ ed page. Just providing info on why Rush seems to have gotten onto cnbc.

When the former editorial page editor (have blocked his name) died (about a decade ago?), I cheered. Prematurely, as it turned out, since the page didn’t become any less rabid.

ITA with this and this what I have been saying all along – the media climate which has built up since 1970 must be overturned. David Brock does a good job in “The Republican Noise Machine” giving a tidy history of how this came about.

This is required reading to understand how economic policy in this country has taken such a hard turn to the right. They have taken 40 years to establish this and are very much entrenched. It’s like going on a diet when you are severely overweight, while you’d like to take the weight off in a week or two, you actually have to lose 2 pounds a week as it probably took you 2 pounds a week to put it on in the first place.

There IS a VWRW and it is very entrenched. The free flow of information is its enemy as it has facts on its side. It is the real reason why the Soviet Union fell and it is the reason why, over time, any kind of authoritarian government is doomed to fail as well. I sure as hell would like it happen overnight, but I just don’t think that is realistic.

a commentator last night when asked what does birth control have to do with economic stimulus answered that it has to be implemented by people who are hired to do it. jobs.

in my mind, that’s what i keep coming back to–goods and services.

you have to have a product that is made here, money kept here. services that are needed and provided here. creates more tax base, creates more money spent here on other products and services, creates more jobs here. until that happens, it’s just throwing money to the wind-overseas. we are still spending money that is being gathered overseas. buying products and services that are providing wealth and jobs for others. stimulus money for banks is being loaned to companies not even providing jobs or services here. one bank even said they are not making more loans, that this money is for them to ‘ride it out’. that is not stimulating anything except their own ‘chaching’.

name things that are made here and purchased here that put cash flow back into our economy and communities and provide jobs here. not many.
how can an economic stimulus work without that happening? it is like a shell game. it is all a windfall at the top, because there is no fundamental economic american foundational base to replenish with funds, it is now overseas. so, where’s the money to be used to help pump up commerce when most of our commerce is foreign-based goods? that means that money is not landing here. and in the end will not benefit us.

who are the banks supposed to be lending to that would help that? they don’t exist anymore. a very few.

i don’t get it.

i think i can agree but only if you agree that the Ds’ actual position is that of the establishment (and not as they pretend, with us). the Ds don’t get good policy passed because they would, in general, not know a good policy if someone served it to them on a silver platter.

your strategy was a complete failure

I think this part of your response is where we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I don’t think he failed at all.

The bill passed, and Republicans look like WATB’s.

I’ll take lots more of this kind of “failure”.

Ditto.

Rivlin & Feldstein both withdrawing support from the stimulus package.

and i meant a tv commenter, not a pup.

Tax cuts for capital gains give a basis for trust in any investment. Investments are for future profit and gains so not making capital gains now doesn’t take away any merit to the worth of capital gains tax cuts. If you were to invest your money in any sort of investment and the government said when you collect your return we will lower your tax from 30% to 15%, is that not an incentive. You generate $10,000 taxable profit and instead of paying $3,000 you get to keep an extra $1,500 of the money you risked to earn on said investment. That seems stimulating to me.

Tax cuts for people on income give the 92.8% of people that are currently working. This allows them to stregnthen their personal finsacial situation. Maybe have the extra money to make an investment or two. At the very least it gives them a little extra money to spend in the economy naturally. This will give the business’ a stronger base and more income. This incremental growth can lead to stabilisaztion and job growth. And as more money is spent through this path government will get more tax revenue through this venue.

Business tax cuts in the US is the easiest. We have a corporate tax rate of 35%, the 2nd highest in the world. Even with loopholes our businesses are still taxed high than many developed countries. Our workforce is great and eager to work. Our potential is great. Lowering business taxes will help business stay here, new ones the confidence to start, and general growth on new business from around the world. Tax cuts put more money in the private sector, banks can boost their balence sheets and growth can occur in many areas.
Think it through it does make sence and work.

Gee, all along I thought that bipartisanship meant have Rs vote with Ds. Never realized it meant exactly the opposite.

Read this guy from the Baltimore Sun, who is also the drive time host on the largest radio station here.

He’s too much of a p***y to say it outright, but if you can read between the lines he is saying what a lot of GOPers believe, and that is, the Hooverian idea of just letting the economic cycle happen, regardless of the consequences, including letting 93-year old guys freeze in their homes, because they can’t afford the electric bill.

Dems are letting the Republicans and the media do the framing. Until the framing changes, nothing changes.

Yep, that’s exactly right.

New talking point…

I know it’s like asking a jellyfish to grow a spine, but why don’t the Dems confront the Rethugs by pointing out that what the markets need most right now is confidence, and by playing Limbaugh “I want the president to fail” politics the Rethugs are undermining that confidence.

I wouldn’t fret too much. Obama knew precisely what he was getting into. He has been studying this whole scenario for much much longer than most folks seem to realize.

Don’t bother swiping at me for my wild speculations.

Let me just be totally stupid and say, I’ve looked into his soul. I like what I see.

There’s an old, hackneyed phrase, “With friends like these, who needs enemies.”

If it fits…. wear it proudly, whomever you perceive yourself to be. I think he expected to encounter you too.

This is going to be a lot more intriguing than the past 8 yrs.

*picks up binocs and goes to sit in the near corner*

Yup. When the other side controls the mass media apparatus and has for decades, it’s hard not to let their framing permeate your brain. Only in the last few years has the playing field even started to tilt our way, and only after much belated effort — and what may be a growing realization that pimping right-wing framing is not as profitable as they thought it was.

Case in point: MSNBC zapped Phil Donahue’s show in early 2003 despite it’s having the best ratings by far on the infant network. Then, after years of craptastic ratings with Michael Savage and other conservative hate-radio jocks, they decide that maybe they should try putting making a profit over pushing right-wing ideology — and now KO and Maddow are ratings bonanzas for them.

Interesting in light of the fact that Feldstein only backed Military build-up as stimulus.

Do you have any links on this?

ecahn, in the next thread i asked a question on your comment re two year restoration in ledbetter fpa bill. if you have a chance, would you give more info? thanks….

I saw several mentions of Rachel Maddow, none mentioning that she (like Paul Krugman) thinks that the stimulus bill is not that great a bill, the reason being that Obama tried too hard to get some Republican support, and despite giving them a lot of Republican-friendly tax cuts that cost hundreds of billions and provide little stimulus, not a single Republican congresscritter voted for the thing.

So the reason you don’t see a lot of Democrats defending the bill is because a lot of Democrats aren’t particularly happy with it.

I hope that the Senate takes some of these “compromises” out (and they aren’t compromises, since only our side gave anything up).

Heard it on cnbc, which I have going in the background. Can’t listen too carefully, as it’s the segment with Kulow as a host, and before lunch ….

ohhh ..shut up concern-troll … you’re in the wrong venue …

Business tax cuts in the US is the easiest. We have a corporate tax rate of 35%, the 2nd highest in the world.

That talking point is horseshit and has been thoroughly debunked here, for example.

This from the same blog knocks down everyone of the talking points that you use.

Just because you hear all of this stuff on your TV on hear it on your radio does not make it true.

Nope I havn’t had any of those happen to me. I do give up many perks that I could enjoy like others in my early 20’s age range. I didn’t take a summer off to go party with my firends, I worked as much as possible 7 days a week when available. I have taken 2 jobs in order to get ahead. I worked hard to pay off my student loans( that I never expected mommy and daddy to help with) I working the the manufacturing field in wisconsin that has been sheading jobs consistantly for 5 years strong. I now next monthly mill close in our county could be mine and barely having enough work for 40 hours a week shows it might be closer than not. I worked and sacraficed to set myself up in case the worst happens. I can’t depend on others to help because I have been given the tools to take care of myself.

yep. i listen to them too, on occasion. HAD to before Jane filled this beautiful Lake.

I cannot abide that tone in their sick messages. I WILL not.

maybe political success. but still looks mostly like economic failure to me.

Responded. Don’t know anything except what I heard on NPR.

Be careful who you feed. Unless you’re in it for the sport. *g*

Mebbe you put on the wrong set of glasses with which to view the beast.

Some rather nebbish-looking jellyfish have a lethal sting.

Obama may have played this one better than you guys think. The Repubs look vindictive and petty for not even trying to negotiate in good faith with him on urgent problems that affect us all, and for folks who are already jobless or homeless or hungry (and those that care about them), the House Republicans resemble the fat cats running a Dickensonian orphanage. Give this some time. There will be blood.

I wish that were true, but unfortunately it is not.

I think it is wishful thinking that, with a non-filibuster proof majority in the Senate, that people like Coburn are not going to do anything in their power to throw a spanner in the works and that Harry is not going to try and accommodate him. I saw a “moderate” such as Susan Collins on my teevee yesterday using the same talking points as our misguided friend under #100.

This one was easy since Steve Benen did a wonderful post on this.

He is a radio personality who is a huge fan of conservative policy. So by his credit claiming comments you believe republican members of congress and senate all work together with Rush to forward an agenda. That like saying a sportswriter who loves his team and says what they should do deserves credit for victory for voicing his opinion and his personal attempt to take a slice of the credit. Would that coach ever give any credit to that, yuou be the judge, doesn’t make much sence to me.

The republicans may like that he is a voice out there just the same as democrats love so many in Hollywood voicing their brilliant and masterful opinions on modren politics but they don’t work together.

OK folks. Got stuff to do. It’s been real.

Mark Haines on CNBC just did a pretty good live smackdown of Rush Limpbot, who has apparently an editorial in today’s WSJ promoting his joke of a “bipartisan” stimulus plan that calls for setting the tax cut, jobs creation ratio to the percentages of the November 08 popular vote.

Haines called him a hypocrite, asking him why he didn’t propose a similar bipartisan split in 2001 vis a vis the Bush tax cuts.

Haines also called him out on his ‘hoping the president fails’ comments, laughed at him a couple of times, and had the last word.

Never been a big Haines fan but his stock just went up in my book.

For s**ts and giggles, look up a Pat Buchanan column (if you can stand it) and then listen to him the following day or two.

As an aside, my wife used to work in a video store 20 years ago and let’s just say that the man likes his adult videos…… (repeat after me, ewwwwww!)

I always cringe when I see those BAL ads when they those “man in the street” types saying “I listened to Ron and I got so informed…..”

sorry you just want to hear everything that backes up your own theroies. I like to study opinions that oppose my own so that I can look into somthing and have orignal thought.

thank you! have a good day.

stay tuned, callow fellow.

Then why, pray tell, do they grovel at his feet when a GOP Congresscritter says truth to power?

Money quote:

“I clearly ended up putting my foot in my mouth on some of those comments, and I just wanted to tell you, Rush — and all our conservative giants, who help us so much to maintain our base and grow it to get back this majority — that I regret those stupid comments.”

thank you sir, may I have another?

positively freudian!

theories morphs into hero.

priceless.

Here. You win my free acorn for the day. You’ll want to soak, cook and grind it first. Unless you’re a squirrel, the tannins are just a tad too much of a good thing.

that’s a good fella. now run along. Oh, and wait for the “WALK” light!
No, really, seriously. there ya’ go ;->

P. E. A. C. E.

Back to work….. you know I really love this site. So much brainwashing I have seen but it is a challenge and interesting. I would assume most on this site are based in california. because more views would make some sence for that area. I would also assume many on her think it would benefit America to press charges and investigate Bush. Think of the greater good the best way to prosper!! Go America!!

Forty-two percent (42%) of the nation’s likely voters now support the president’s plan, roughly one-third of which is tax cuts with the rest new government spending. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 39% are opposed to it and 19% are undecided. Liberal voters overwhelmingly support the plan while conservatives are strongly opposed.
http://www.rasmussenreports.co…..lips_to_42

ewwww thanks but…..

looked, listened, read long ago,….. brain. will. not. allow. to repeat.

stunning how a supposedly smart, well-educated person can….

oh, but yonder, i see…..

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as far as the eye can see.

He’s Petromyzon , as I live and breath.

no. really. after you….

do be careful. i hear tell California’s pretty close to the edge…

I think this was a good response by the GOP. With such a major shellacking in the last two elections, I think they are realizing that something’s wrong. In almost a desperation move, they are betting the farm that this ’stimulus’ bill will turn out to be nothing more than throwing more money into a giant pit (much like that last few stimulus and bailout bills). Republican’s have basically zero credibility with conservatives after the Bush years, and by taking a stand (finally) against Keynesian economic policies, I believe they are risking their political fortunes on the correct ideological side. Now they will have some political muscle to flex when this stimulus completely fails, dragging us down into another depression.

oh, that’s rich.

8 years of bush-league ‘nomics but, by gum, all downturns shall, by official decree, be blamed on “that other one.”

good luck with that. uh, no. the door’s off to your right. Don’t mind the chute. Just sit on the slide and i’ll give ya a gentle lil’ push. Shouldn’t take much.

There ya goooooooooo. Mind that sharp edge now. Comes at ya purty fast.

Whoopsie. darn, forgot the acorn…. ah well, as long as they think they’re independent, i’m sure they’ll git along jes’ fine.
Bless their little hearts.

also sitting in the corner w/ binoc’s

lots of popcorn too

Ohhhh. May I have some? Looks great! Yum! Real butter. Thanks.

goldpearl eh? Pretty name. Nice ta meet ya.

You think there’s enough room down there for ‘em all? They’re not comin’ in too swift, but still they’re pretty thick.

What the hell are you talking about?

“I working the the manufacturing field in wisconsin that has been sheading jobs consistantly for 5 years strong. I now next monthly mill close in our county could be mine and barely having enough work for 40 hours a week shows it might be closer than not. I worked and sacraficed…”

Student loans? You were a college student? With your level of illiteracy? It doesn’t seem that you worked sufficiently in college. Do you realize just how many grammatical and spelling errors you have in your posts? Do you realize just how many false assumptions and factual errors permeate the things you are claiming? Except for the cut-and-paste jobs much of what you are saying is illegible, and even the C&P is illogical.

If you went to a State school you were “subsidized” by their tax dollars. If you received Federally insured college loans you were offered lower rates and a deferment in payment because of the action of Democrats. Public education in America is, in essence, a “socialist” philosophical item. It’s the action of all members of the public contributing to the communities welfare, whether they have kids or not.

As far as Limbaugh being a “private citizen”….he operates under a FCC license that requires him to use the public airwaves responsibly. You make a comparison to a broadcaster who is a sports fan. Actually in Limbaugh’s case it would be more like a “booster” who encourages people to provide money for the home team so that they can recruit more star athletes, who goes out to the schools to promote his team, and who drags down the other team. But Limbaugh’s team are the most wealthy and privileged. He’s not for all Americans. He’s for those that can grab the most they can from others, and let those that can’t hold on to it through power or influence go to hell.

certainly not u. would you like a little refreshment?

here. hold my broom, would you? I’ll be right back in a split sectaculenium.

here ya go (passes the popcorn)

nice to meet ya too – but ive been around for a few years – (used to go by educatedplaintiff until they redid the site – lost the ability to use EP) i like GP better anyway

mostly i lurk, learn, paste & pass on to my pol list, who are too busy & depend on me to surf progressively.

back to my corner…

Ah! THERE you are! Thanks much. ;->

I wouldn’t go on assumptions. Assumptions are very very dangerous.

ah. Thanks. similar style here, except too gabby by far. But I can do a pretty good imitation of a thoroughly irritated squid when it seems appropriate, not quite at random.

shhhhhhhh, only the shadow knows……

*!poof!*

Gee, all along I thought that bipartisanship meant have Rs vote with Ds. Never realized it meant exactly the opposite.

Well, I’m sure you’ve heard the old saying, “You can lead a Republican to bipartisanship, but you can’t make them vote that way.”

If I was Obama, I would have Levin and Voinovich team up and add more stimulus/infrastructure to the Bill in the Senate.

What I wonder is whether the bill that came out of the House was devised with input from senators and whether there are plans for other separate spending plans (such as rail developments and repairs).

If it was just a House invention then there could be additions and modifications.

If there are no separate spending plans for things like rail, then that might well be added.

After all, the Senate can’t be seen as simply rubber-stamping what the House has done — they have to get in their stuff.

However, if there was some Senate input into the House bill, it might sail through on one go with no modifications at all.