by TW Collins
Well, it passed. After taking out family planning money and ditching bankruptcy reform, plus including significant tax cuts, not a single Republican voted for it. It’s like Democrats are negotiating with themselves. They give things up and get no votes in exchange.
Of course, votes were never needed in the House, anyway. The real question has always been the Senate. While it’s unclear to me that any Republican Senator who would cross lines to vote for the bill was of the theocon wing that believes that contraception and family planning is the devil, perhaps the votes traded were traded in the Senate. One can hope so.
The other possibility is that the real negotiation isn’t with Republicans, but with Blue Dogs. Obama promised Blue Dogs that Pay-Go legislation would come up next in order to get their support. While there are ways to do pay-go which won’t completely destroy the ability to do stimulus in the future (put all the off budget stuff back on the budget, and then draw down out of Iraq fast to free up money) it’s unclear if that’s the intention. The fear has to be that pay-go will mean that after the stimulus, TARP, and the 8 trillion or so that the Fed and the Treasury have spent, loaned and guaranteed, the barn doors are about to be shut hard. What normal people are getting, a few hundred billion, is all they may get. Large programs like universal healthcare could thus be, in effect, off the table.
While I’ve been a deficit hawk for years, doing a stimulus once, then being unwilling to do another one if necessary, is potentially disastrous. It was precisely this mistake which FDR made when he tried to balance the budget in the middle of the Great Depression, undoing many of the employment gains of the New Deal.
I hope Democrats aren’t tying their own hands, and at the same time negotiating with themselves, rather than Republicans. It’s one thing to get Republican votes in exchange for a compromise. It’s another thing to compromise and get nothing in return.
Related posts:
- Fox News Slags Stimulus Bill for Being Too Republican
- Anthony Weiner: Not Including Public Plan Will Cost Reform “100 Votes” in the House
- Rahm’s Deal to Buy Republican Votes with Flu Vaccines: FAIL
- Democrats “Win” 2008 So Republican Can Write Health Care Bill
- Pelosi to Include Medicare+5 Public Option in House Bill
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let this be a lesson to democrats: we don’t need Republican votes.
oh, oh, first! (lol)
I’m beginning to wonder if Comedy Central could put up a poker game between Obama and Reid, as pay-per-view.
Truly an outstandingly funny negotiation.
I wonder if they’ll put family planning & bankruptcy cram-down back in during conference? Or will they take more Democratic principle-type things out in hopes of getting some GOP votes on final passage?
Should be fun to have cocktails at the White House right about now….
I think we have seen the true colors of the House Republicans. The blue dog theory, while it has its merits, is of limited value in this situation. President Obama held out his hand and instead got sucker punched. If we don’t get at least, I don’t know, 10 Senators to vote for this, the new era of bipartisanship is all but doomed. Although given President Obama’s penchant to never give up on anyone, my guess is he keeps coming back, much like Scrooge’s nephew Fred. And maybe someday they will come around, like Scrooge. Unfortunately Dickens is fiction, the reality is the party would rather cease to exist before that happens.
I’m hoping that Obama can now position himself as “above the fray,” able to say “well, I went and tried to reason with them and they slapped me in the face. Obviously they don’t want to work with us to get America back on its feet,” or words to that effect. Of course, in order to get that message out the fracking media would have to print or broadcast something other than “REPUBLICANS REPUDIATE OBAMA’S EXPENSIVE, DEFICIT-INCREASING PLAN.” That part I’m not feeling confident about…
is it possible that this is indeed true? it certainly was at times during the 110th congress – when the dems would do things claiming the republicans made them do it, but when in actual fact it was the dems gaming the system to get the outcome i conclude they wanted all along (but didn’t want to be responsible to the voters for).
*aargh* My kingdom for a Dem spine…! It’s shameful we keep ending up with the same sorry bunch…! 8-(
Some people say that Obama is playing a deep strategic game, but it seems equally likely that he’s either getting rolled, or is triangulating. I hope he proves me wrong. I have a British friend who thinks he’ll be another Tony Blair.
At some point Obama has to go head-to-head with the Republicans and whip their asses, or the Democrats will be cringing forever. The House Democrats seem to have picked up a little spirit.
I hope that the conference committees are stacked, and I hope that the Democrats take out ALL of the sweeteners they put in to make the Republicans happy.
Digg it right here
Here’s a question – did Rahmbo earn his pay today?
I haven’t seen any evidence yet that he did.
John, you’re so right. What better bill to kick republican butt on than the stimulus. Let’s build some SUPERTRAINS and subways, please. Sheesh.
I’m choosing to think this is the strategy
I wonder if the Rethugs will try to filibuster this in the Senate.
If they do, I hope the Democrats will have the nerve to stop the Senate dead in its tracks and force a real filibuster, not this pro-forma bullshit. Let the voters see who’s obstructing what.
You’ll be able to tell if it worked by looking at my miserable excuse for a congresscritter, John Barrow. (That’s not a typo — he doesn’t deserve a capital letter until he does his job like a Democrat.)
On a related topic – Ian, if you are around – do you have an opinion on today’s budget?
Haven’t looked at it at all. Link? (busy day, mostly afk)
1. Does anyone believe what just passed will actually work?
2. How does the vote-counting in the Senate look?
postpartisanship=fancy word for spineless
I hope not
the bill now needs to be rewritten with no concessions and with added chestnuts like taxes on the wealthy to fund the stimulous
then the senate can bargain in better faith, especially with franken taking a seat
Hope is now a 4-letter word.
that may be incredibly insightful…. but boy do i hope not.
Whose lapdog would he be and/or who is the puppet master now, if your British friend is right (which, actually, I doubt).
Pay-go? For Christ’s sake. That’s the absolute antithesis of a stimulus plan.
The Blue Dogs are as dumb as mud. They’re repeating Republican slogans without any understanding of what’s going on in this country.
lol. see my @22
The trolls are out in force at Huffington Post justifying Republicans obstructionism and praying for a complete economic collapse. Their patron saint of hillbilly heroin has taught them well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..61654.html
I noticed.
The Republican mantra of “tax cuts” as the panacea for all ills is tantamount to medieval barbers proclaiming bloodletting as the cure for all ailments.
Are their informed progressives to balance things out there?
if the 111th is anything like the 110th then i figure the bluedogs are doing exactly what they are supposed to do – providing cover for the party so the Ds don’t have to move “too” far left. the plan, as i see it now, is to stay just to the left of the Rs but allow no space to open up that the Rs may fill.
Nope – just what I read the Globe today.
We’ll be next. Shields up!!
The patron saint from Florida, or the one from Alaska?
Oh yeah! It’s really no contest but when dealing with Rushbots it’s never a fair fight.
Gonna ask this again, because I’d really like to know the answer:
Whose lapdog would Obama be (assuming he’ll be/is like Tony Blair) and/or who is the reigning puppet master?
Negotiate with Republicans??? I thought we didn’t negotiate with Terrorist!
The Republicans surely didn’t negotiate in good faith, the Democrats should just throw in the towel and tell the Republicans to go home to their Districts and the people there that they will not be getting any of the stimulus money in their districts because he/she Voted against the Bill. Then Tell the Rethuglian Senators that they will get the same if they don’t get behind the stimulus package. With Republicans you have to play the only game they know “HardBall” and to hell with them.
Selise, that owuld be the “triangulation” option.
My Congressman (Colin Peterson) is a Blue Dog leader. I’ve been to a couple of local Democratic party meetings in two counties here, and in both counties the local Democrats were talking about how frustrating / impossible is is to try to talk to him.
you going to come clean and tell us the backstory?
patience when i’m curious is not a strong suit with me… *g*
Far as I know the wicked witch of the north does not partake of the hillbilly heroin.
and daggers drawn!
The Lake’s Mods are da bestest… Sometimes too good…! ;-)
Darth was the puppet master for both Shrub and Poodle. Poodle just followed what Shrub told him to do. He was another Thatcherite so they didn’t have to work on his economic policies. Much.
Do I think it’ll work?
It’s better than doing nothing, but no, I don’t think it’s enough. Hopefully, the Senate will realize that or this is just the first big stimulus bill of the year. But the longer we wait, the worse things get, so this one should be bigger. But it is something.
Think he might mean that Obama’s really rightwing, but ran on the D party because it’d be easier to get elected. Just guessing.
I think that some version of Nahant’s strategy should be followed. that would mean more pork, not less, but stimulus bills are spending bills anyway. Zero pork for No voters.
The Republicans are out in force on all the Democratic sites I’ve visited today.
Except that doesn’t work where you have states with D representatives and one or two R senators. Or D senators working with R representatives.
As much as we may dislike it sometimes, it is still the USA in total with idiots on both sides of the aisle and even good people on both sides of the aisle.
Yeah, ET, you got a whole bunch of inquiring minds worked up — now spill, please!
OK – I don’t think she’s into downers either, but she’d try anything once if she felt it would get her in the news another cycle.
Tony Blair was much more than Bush’s lapdog. You’re rather missing the point. Blair came in looking like a liberal and did all sorts of horribly conservative things. England is now the most surveilled country in the world, for example, you can’t walk anywhere without cameras watching you. He also fully embraced bubble economics and so on (England’s economic numbers are even worse than the US’s in these regards, which is amazing.)
yes. damn. i’ve so had enough of it.
i mean, i can see the utility from the stand point of political strategy. but this is not a fucking game with economic collapse, resource constraints and climate crisis staring us in the face.
preaching to the choir, i expect. but still… argh!!!!!!
Nah, wrist rockets with turd pellets.
when dealing with Rushbots it’s never a fair fight.
I have found the problem to be that they lack the ability to even realize they’ve lost.
Right. But if Obama is being likened to Tony Blair, who is HIS puppet master and whose lap does he sit upon? (I actually reject this notion out of hand, but then I’ve been totally off base before. I know. Shocking.)
that was JohnEmerson’s friend
Obama is a corporatist, as is Clinton and most of Congress. His puppet master is a combination of corporate interests.
That’s one of the most polite ways of saying, “Hey, bozette, you dont’ get it!” *g*
I hear what you’re saying. But if it’s true that Cheney had a strong, unseen hand in Blair’s sell-out, are we to assume that someone is pulling Obama’s strings or that he’s going to sell out unassisted?
After WWII many hard core Nazi’s never grasped the fact that their dream was all over.
the blair analogy appealed to me because of other parallels. extremely articulate and sounded progressive… however, as far as implemented policies go was horribly right wing wrt to issue of neoliberal economics, police state at home and imperial foreign policy (although in this area only as a lap dog to the usa)
We’ve still got bozos here that want to refight the Civil War. The “South will rise again” crowd. Combined, their IQ is about 3 below plant life.
Hillary once talked about creating millions of jobs turning the country green. Manufacturing jobs, engineering, construction etc. It was inspiring. I’m not as inspired by what I’m hearing about this bill.
Sarah Palin’s in-laws are dopers, and her son may be, and her daughter may be, but there’s no evidence so far that she is. But frankly her everlasting cheerfulness and chirpiness seems suspicious to me.
For a look at the direction the U.K. is going thanks to Bush’s poodle I suggest one watch the BBC Masterpiece Contemporary production of “The Last Enemy.” The U.S. will not be far behind.
I know but the spirit of it needs to be used as club on them! Either they work for the common good or get out of the way. Our country needs to have this package or everyone loses. Do you think the people will vote for Republicans after they torpedo the stimulus package??
Talk is cheap. I’m not from Missouri but “Show Me.”
Ambar.
I think Blair was already being pretty right wing before Bush, actually. I know I despised him before then, though the Iraq war overlay rather makes not remember the specifics anymore — too much outrage over it. But he was definitely a third way type – very neoliberal, and I never much liked them.
I’m to the point were I don’t care about defining BarackObama anymore.
We need family planning yesterday! How do we fix this? How often have you seen a group of young people hanging out in parking lots,socializing, with young babies in strollers? Take a look. It’s kind of scary.
We need family planning more than Wall Street needs bonuses on the dole.
Personally, I wouldn’t be opposed to Obama negotiating a treaty returning Texas to Mexico.
Van Jones is one of the most compelling advocates of green economy around. Talk about a passionate, articulate progressive spokesperson!
Well, doing nothing as we saw under George Bush did nothing to help stimulate the economy, so at this point this bill is a good start.
It’s a lot like religion. It can’t be proved and while it’s highly unlikely that the South will rise again it can’t be disproved. Strictly a matter of faith, no intelligence required.
I hope Barack realizes the next time the Neocon Pigs start throwing abortion & contraceptives at him, he’ll just look at them and laugh! Even when the neocons get their way, they still backstab everyone. I say we just ignore them for the next 8 years! Sounds good to me and I know Americans are feeling the same way. The last election proved it.
Barbara, Blair was the leader of a major nation, and he was a very bad leader who talked a good game but performed very badly. The lapdog thing has nothing to do with it.
Either that or building a wall around the entire state except that portion along the Rio Grande.
Tony Balir was from a UK Public School (The Other are the state schools). How a Public Schoolboy (person from money) becuase the larbor party leader an amazing kink.
No surprise he was the most Conservative Labor leader ever.
If I understand correctly — always doubtful — Paul Krugman et al. have been saying that any ecStim package below a certain size threshold and without certain characteristics would be essentially wasted money because it would not work. Like the first one didn’t, not much. That would be bad.
Might as well throw in Oklahoma. They’re actually redder than Texas.
If You Crash The Economy, The Lesbians Take Over
Eli’s upstairs
I’m afraid they’ve watered it down to the point where it won’t work and the Republicans will look prescient for voting against it, which I think has been their plan all along.
Longer wall more jobs.
I respectfully disagree. I am hearing that Blair was who he was before Bush came along. I wasn’t paying much attention to him in the day, so didn’t know that. But it seems to me things ramped up to a fare-thee-well when Bush and Blair became conjoined. Lap dog? That was the conventional descriptor. Maybe not accurate. But given the size and scope of the U.S. vs. Britain, Bush must have had the whip hand. And if we are in agreement that Cheney controlled Bush, then it must follow that he to some extent controlled Blair as well (or so it seems to me, but I am not a long-time observer of that scene). All I’m trying to figure out here is whether we are being asked to believe that Obama is not who he appeared/claimed to be while campaigning and is beginning to show his true colors OR if he is being strongly influenced by an unseen controller beyond the usual suspects (e.g., corporations, big-money-dudes-and-dudettes, etc.) I can tell I’m not getting my point across here, and I think I will let it go after this ramble.
missed it, but will watch for repeats.
That’s exactly what I’m afraid of.
Barbara, sorry, but you have no point. No one says anyone is controlling Obama. We’re hoping that he’s not a bad leader the way Blair was, but we fear that he might be. That’s all that anyone has been saying. Blair was a bad guy all on his own.
Which corporate interests pull his strings?
From Sea To Shining Sea?
“Sarah Palin’s in-laws are dopers, and her son may be, and her daughter may be, but there’s no evidence so far that she is. But frankly her everlasting cheerfulness and chirpiness seems suspicious to me.”
And she’s even chirpy and smilin’ when she’s spewing bile and biliousness…to me that’s really pathological.
Open Secrets contributions data. There’s some data from his time in the Senate but I’d have to search for it.
If ou’re still around, John. Maybe Minnesota can reorganize its districts after the 2010 census and get rid of both Peterson and Bachman…and Kline.
More and better Democrats in Minnesota, please.
Gracias for the link, I’ll check it out.
We’re going to lose a House seat most likely, and it may affect our district (CD6). Every year, the rumor floats that Kline is ready to call it quits, but since we’ve been unable to unearth a serious contender since Bill Luther went away, it’s Kline’s for the taking. Even in 2008.
Bachmann’s District C6. Kline is C2. Conversation upthread just about did me in, so I’m more rattled than usual. Now that’s baaaad! *g*
I hope to God, Prairie Sunshine.
This district will never be liberal and probably shouldn’t be redistricted, but Peterson is far worse than he needs to be. There’s no serious Republican opposition and he gets 70% support in the general elections. A pretty good Democrat could win with 50% support, but Peterson is entrenched.
OT, but I start conversations with intent with members of the Dem. Causus tomorrow on WA senate Resolution 8602 2009-10. ” Recognizing Israel’s Interest in Democracy”. Passed by voice-vote on the morning of Jan.21. In our name. Yet again our politicians applaud war crimes and arms sales.
I feel extremely small pursuing this. Like I’m totally out of my league.
But the photo of a little boy backed against a wall, with the look of sheer horror haunts me. I can’t give him his childhood back. I can only ask the comfortable people who’ve never suffered like the people of Palestine why they’re blind to humanity. Why they support Olmert and his War Crimes.
What noble purpose? Thank you, Cindy Sheehan. Another mother steps up.
I’ve waited for the return call for 2 days. Done waiting.
Blue Dogs have lots of constituents who understand the federal budget in personal finance terms.
Of course, these are the same people who have borrowed up to their credit card credit limits.
Here’s my pay-go plan. Beginning in 2010 have a highly, and I do mean highly, progressive estate tax exempting estates under $25 million and indexing for inflation. I think we can get the TARP funds back that way if there are also restrictions of gifting it away and hiding it in the Caymans.
SouthernDragon, thanks for the OpenSecrets financing link. Interesting reading.
Repugs are making it tantalizingly easy to label them as nasty, uncaring, reactionary, and stupid. Is that what they wish? Fine. Let it be so.
Blue Dogs have lots of constituents who understand the federal budget in personal finance terms.
Truer words were never spoken. It’s really hard to argue with people who think that way. It makes perfect sense, but it’s all wrong.
Democrats are like the crew of the Titanic negotiating with the Republican iceberg. They still haven’t figured out this is not going to work.
lol — sort of
You’re welcome. Glad to be of help.
Probably always an optimist, I see this vote as part of the total distruction of the GOP of the Bush era.
I think (hope) Obama’s plan is to seize the middle and add it to the left, leaving the unwashed, bigots, ignorant, greedy and stupid (who did I leave out?) a clear playingfield of about 26% of the vote.
Yes, the House made some concessions and the GOP welshed on supporting a “bipartisan bill,” but no party ever progressed by being the party of “I want the president to fail! I’m for destroying America!”
Yesterday Nate Silver shared data on Senate voting that shows a filibuster may not be possible, depending on the issue, of course. If Obama can seize a few more “middle ground” votes by showing some compromise gets rewarded with “I want the president to fail! I’m for destroying America!” well…even Orin Hatch won’t be able to stand for that!
Give the strategy some time.
Yeah. Blair was Clinton without the conscience.
We haven’t met, but thank you, thank you. I am weary of second-guessing every single thing Obama says, does, doesn’t say, doesn’t do. I don’t know if you’re right or wrong about gathering up the middle (though, FWIT, that makes sense to me), but yes, to “give the strategy some time.” Must go to bed before head explodes.
I’ve been screaming at the tv over this for the past couple of weeks while this “horse trading” has been going on. It appears that the horse has left town, and all the Democrats got was the shit.
And how did that little plan work out? I saw that 12 Dems voted against the bill. I assume it was the Dogs.
RE hychka @ 102:
Same old, same old: “those lefties have nowhere to go, so we don’t have to give them anything” philosophy. We may not go anywhere vote-wise, but I, at least, am not going to be donating and working my tail off like I have been over the last 18 months.
Today’s vote showed that compromising with the GOP is a waste of time. If the Bill was going to pass with DEM votes alone, why not just pass the Bill the DEMs wanted to begin with.
There is a good chance that would have produced significantly more DEM defectors. We’ll never know if it would have been enough to fail the bill.
Based on a talk given last night by Galbreath here in Austin, I think this is an important point. His observations left me with the fear that the “clogged” or “frozen” banking system will remain so, after all the TARP money is gone. And it’s unclear that Giethner’s steps will be any more productive than Paulson’s.
There is a more than reasonable chance that further action will be needed beyond the steps in view now. It would be a very bad decision on Obama’s part to tie his hands now, before the effects of TARP and HB 1 (and whatever Geithner comes up with) show effect.
Galbraith–not “Galbreath”. It’s early…