It’s snowing today in DC but it sure feels like spring. The Mexico City gag rule has been repealed, Guantanamo is going to be closed, and our leaders acknowledge that torture is a crime. Yesterday Obama ordered the government to allow review California and other state emissions standards. It’s like we just crawled out of the dark ages.
But when Congress set a goal for the automakers to come back on February 17 and present them with a plan for being "financially viable" along with making more fuel efficient cars, they were in serious denial about the fact that doing one makes the other impossible, at least in the short term. And so here we are today, with the auto execs acknowledging that the big gas guzzlers are their most popular cars, and if they can’t sell them, they can’t be profitable. And the new order just makes things more confusing:
One concern automakers have with states regulating tailpipe emissions is that keeping up with a hodgepodge of standards would be difficult. They expressed support Monday for the ideal of cutting emissions but want their engineers to be concerned with meeting just one set of requirements nationally.
The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents 11 carmakers, said it favored “a nationwide program that bridges state and federal concerns and moves all stakeholders forward, and we are ready to work with the administration on developing a national approach,” in a statement from the group’s chief executive, Dave McCurdy.
It’s certainly progress from the days when George Bush turned the entire country into an altar for Big Oil, but it’s only a first step, and one that creates more problems for automakers. Nothing has really changed I wrote last November:
Forget GM’s Plan — Where’s The Government’s Plan?
When Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi sent the Detroit automakers away and told them to come up with a plan, it made me want to put my head through a wall. Not because the automakers didn’t need one, but because they’re operating in a black box unless and until the government comes up with their plan.
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You cannot create an effective business plan if you cannot project what the market for your product will be. A market for green cars can only be guaranteed by government action. It’s a simple and very basic business principle. If the automakers tell everyone what they want to hear and promise to make small, fuel-efficient cars and yet people continue to want SUVs, Honda and Toyota will supply that market and then everyone will bitch about how GM and Ford are not competitive because they’ve got shitloads of cars nobody wants.
You can ask them to be profitable, or you can ask them to be energy efficient. If the government wants them to be both, they have to create the market conditions for that to happen.
Does the administration have the courage to create the kind of policy that would allow the automakers to be both fuel efficient and profitable, like imposing a hefty and unpopular gas tax at a time when people are already struggling? Because if they don’t, they’ve set unreasonable demands that the automakers can’t possibly meet, and the public will get cynical when Richard Shelby and Bob Corker start preaching about the sins of wasteful government spending.
The public needs to know what the choices are. I actually think GM and Ford have done a good job preparing for a fuel efficient future on the engineering side, while Chrysler is just trying to make itself easier for Cerberus and their $2 million worth of lobbyists to unload. But if you explain to the public that the value of getting off oil is worth the price of the domestic automakers not being profitable in the short term, I think they’ll accept that. They’re ready for that.
If that case isn’t made early and often, however, Shelby and Corker will once again be in position to distort and sabotage the union and the automakers when February 17 rolls around.



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In the past, the California Air Resources Board, most commonly referred to as CARB, has set some of the most stringent emissions levels in the country.
The rest of the country generally followed CARB’s outline on down the road.
If I were GM or another car company, I would feel it a safe bet to go with the CARB standards until the Feds came up with something else.
Bingo its either this or a gas tax, and a gas tax will hurt the poor.
Thanks for this, Jane!
As we’ve already seen, we can’t trust the Republicans to act in good faith on this. Gotta keep hammering.
Wait Chrysler is broke but they have $2 million for lobbyists? We need strings attached to this money. My tax dollars are going to bribe politicians?
If the Big three or Obama needs a plan here are some options to consider.
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1835
I think big auto is simply doing a kabuki. the one’s who re really worried are the dealers. they need the low prices to keep the retail flow going. The auto makers know they will get subsidies to cover the changeover.
What if we mass produce light weight Carbon Fiber car parts and reduce the weight of cars?
Obama has good science people if the parts are mass produced how much can we bring the cost down?
A lighter car uses less gas.
Carbon Fiber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C…..ed_plastic
That must be why the European poor are in such sad shape. They pay taxes at 5 times our rate. It’s not the tax that hurts the poor, it’s absence of tax and transfer payments.
Will some kind person who is smarter than I please open digg? This story is muy importante.
Yes it would be good if Obama has a plan if the big three do not come up with one.
We know the GOP plan lower pay and benefits and that will only hurt the economy.
The Big Three could save money if they paid what Japan does for national healthcare for its workers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan
They cover everyone and they live longer than us and have lower infant mortality rates.
Why does the GOP worry about abortion when they let kids be born knowing that they will die?
They also get paid more but hey I like that too:)
Dugg!
Actually, he didn’t. He ordered the agency to repeat the review and follow the correct procedure: the staff looks at the proposal and the law, and then applies the law. Of course, everyone knows what the result will be, because the career EPA people recommended that California be granted the waiver the last time around.
So it’s the same thing and I shouldn’t pick on Jane, right? I don’t think so. Instead, the tone has been set that regulatory agencies follow the law rather than the political slant of the administration. Having Obama arbitrarily apply his political inclinations would just mean that we have a new king, maybe more benevolent but a king nevertheless.
And at the same time, California republicans are refusing to sign a new (only late since July 1) budget unless the democrats agree that corporate pollution standards will be lowered. This way, the “thinking” goes, more business will come into the state.
Lord have mercy.
Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 15.2% of GDP, second only to the tiny Marshall Islands among all United Nations member nations.[1] The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017.[17][18]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H…..ted_States
My bold
How much does Healthcare cost the Big Three it seems that National Healthcare could save them money.
Thanks Things. Me Too.
Government has to be the leader and work with corporations. Not to mention having oversight, especially with the banks!
Ok they lost me completely on that one. I can’t even pretend to follow that level of imaginary logic.
Good point Bush has proven that Business can’t regulate themselves.
The time to raise the gas tax is now, while it’s relatively cheap. If the oil companies raise prices, then the government could compensate by lowering the tax.
I heard it on NPR this morning…nothing up at Calitics yet.
Oh, right! Let’s see. Lowering pollution standards equals higher health risks. They are already closing hospitals in LA. What a bunch of bs.
There is some truth that those who whore out to the lesser standards may sell where lesser standards prevail.
But, with California being as big as it is, are those small markets going to be worth locking yourself into? I don’t think so. Besides, aren’t these car companies trying to ”think globally”; aren’t other countries raising their CAFE standards. And weren’t most of these guys that were against each state setting their own standards ”free market” yodels? With each state able to set their own standards, they can go find the market that they want to sell in, and the consumer gets to be the market that the majority of the state decides that they want to be, that’s the essence of ”free market”, isn’t it?
I’m pretty sure Toyota is a member of this group. Of course Toyota wants the Big Three to keep making big cars in a world where oil is getting harder to find.
Toyota does stand to profit if one or more of the Big Three go under.
They are setting up the Big Three for such an obvious Sucker Play.
China has higher MPG laws than us and GM has no problem making cars for that market.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..26_pf.html
We are behind Freakin China!
You are correct. I will change it.
Slightly OT but
“According to a report from ABC News, President Obama is not taking kindly to corporate greed, especially when it’s funded by taxpayer money. Read more from ABC here:
The high-flying execs at Citigroup caved under pressure from President Obama and decided today to abandon plans for a luxurious new $50 million corporate jet from France…”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..61202.html
The last I saw there were twelve states that had signed onto the California standards. Many of them are more populous states.
http://www.treehugger.com/file…..es_epa.php
Once all the Big Three Cars on average are getting 40 MPG then we can do a gas tax and nail rich folks driving Gas Hogs.
Construction workers and people with big Families can drive Diesel Hybrids.
Diesels can haul heavy loads better and use less fuel doing it.
Great News!
Toyota also makes very big trucks and SUVS and now Detroits big stuff gets better gas mileage than Toyota.
This makes me laugh….. first they loosen the pollution standards, give incentives (millions) for the business to move into the state, don’t collect property taxes (wavers), cut rate corporate tax rates…… HOW is that going to help the state?
Again the auto industry lies. This time about unfair regulation. There are two sets of auto emissions in this country: California Standard Emissions and Federal Standard Emissions. California can regulate car emissions because they started before the federal government. Today California and 13 other states are suing to set tailpipe emissions. The Feds do not. The people in these 14 states make up 37.7% of the US population.
CA(11.95%), NY(6.31%), PA(4.06%), NJ(2.84%), WA(2.52%), AZ(2.07%), MA(2.11%), MD(1.84%), OR(1.23%), CT(1.15%), NM(0.64%), ME(0.43%), RI(0.35%), VT(0.20%).
Six other states are considering joining the California standard emissions.
FL(5.97%), NC(3.08%), MN(1.70%), CO(1.59%), IA(0.98%), UT(0.87%)
If these six states join the CA standard 51% will be on the CA standard. It would be far cheaper for the companies just to make all cars to the CA standard than making two engine systems and suing not to have to tailpipe emissions regulated.
My guess is GM and Chrysler will take government bail out money and sue not to implement the CA standard.
I told you last Thread Demi this subject is fun for me to write about cause I know the subject:) Lobbyists not so much I’ll leave that to the laywers here.
I think we’re seeing the limits of the “free market” in a variety of ways, but the automakers aren’t in a position to revamp their entire lines to meet California emissions standards and be profitable in the short term, certainly not by February 17. They will sell their smaller, less profitable cars in California and lose more money than they already are. More plants will close down and more people will lose their jobs if the government doesn’t step in with even more cash, which will send Shelby and Corker into perma-whine.
Band-aids just aren’t going to do it.
Nobody said they don’t make mistakes they got suckered by low gas prices and high profit margins.
Historically high gas prices have always helped them grow because they made small cars.
They strayed from their vision and now they are paying.
In the 1990s, when the federal government mandated airbags, the auto makers complained that it would add unreasonable costs and nobody would buy their cars based on “safety features”. Cup holders were much more important. But surprise, once airbags became an option, consumers made safety and quality of airbags one of their top criteria.
I have no sympathy for these car maker executives, they lack any forward thinking. And the “hodgepodge of standards” is a red herring, they’ve always just implemented the strictest requirements for all of their vehicles. A lot of emissions controls we all got in our cars around the country came directly from California’s state requirements.
If we want the fuel efficient diesel cars found and sold by GM & Ford in Europe, we will have to insist that the diesel refineries create the super refined fuel used in Europe. The GM Opal diesel we drove 2600km across Europe last summer got approx 66 mpg (yes we did the conversion).
Elmore did some research on why these cars are not imported and found out that the current diesel sold has too much particulates and will ruin the engines in about a year.
Yeah they need Government help to retool all their factories to make hybrids.
Israel and Denmark are building electric car charging stations nation wide.
They can store their excess solar and wind power in their cars and soon (they are working on the tech) if the power goes out their cars can charge their homes.
Obama should just steal their plan.
Good point we need clean Diesel fuel.
Could not agree more.
In fact, this should be part of the economic reasoning for single payer universal coverage.
Trillions of dollars are being spent, and most of it is going to companies that have connections.
Taking health care off the backs of small (and all) businesses would spread the benefit of the money spent more evenly, create jobs & help retain thousands of other jobs.
Single payer universal coverage; it’s not just ‘bleeding heart Liberalism’ anymore.
http://www.triplepundit.com/pa…..better.php
Jane it is not just California. It is California and 13 other states that make up 37.7% of US population. Also, several other states are thinking of joining the CA standard. Those states take it over 50% of US population. See comment 34 above.
Yes we get National Healthcare and Help the Big Three! I like the way you think:)
I just skimmed the comments so I apologize if this has already been said: why don’t the automakers stop advertising the gas guzzlers? The market is created through advertising. Why not ban advertising of any car that gets less than 40 mpg? The results would be amazing (actually predictable).
Some Canadian Provinces have also signed up.
When the Big 3 are making $$$ hand over fist, they say everything is fine, no need to change.
When they’re losing Billions, they say that they can’t afford to change.
Hmmm, is there a pattern here ?
Why can’t we get the MSM to cover China having Higher MPG than us and GM makes money there?
Why can’t we get the MSM to cover what Denmark and Israel are doing with electric cars?
Yes!
We have a great Health Care Plan in Canada and the Big 3 are still mothballing their Assembly lines up here, despite JD Power and other surveys that show these same plants are outperforming the TransPlants.
Cause the MSM are the biggest producers of Gas ? *g*
Yeah it sounds like the GOP strategy on tax cuts we need them when we got a surplus, we need them when we are at war, we need them when we are broke.
I wonder if the Big Three and the GOP have the same Lobbyists and Advertising Firm?
Their Execs largely follow the same talking points …
Do they sell those cars to America or is your economy going under too? Nobody is buying because they can’t get financing.
The bank bailout caused car sales to drop here for lack of financing.
Some kind of collusion you mean? Say, with big oil???
If this administration can keep speculation out of the oil markets, gas prices would probably stay between $1.50 – $3.00 until the global economy turns around.
I’ve often thought a reasonable gas tax increase would be 20 cents when gas is less than $2, 10 cents from 2-3 dollars, and then it would go away when over three dollars.
I know that’s no where near what most environmentalists want, but it would be better than nothing, raise billions of much needed dollars, and wouldn’t be excessively burdensome most of the public.
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3242
The banks are using the bank bailout money to speculate on oil going up.
Of course if the economy stays the way it is I expect them to lose their shirts.
Truck manufacturing is not as politically sensitive as cars. Since 2002 truck engine makers have been forced to reduce diesel emissions dramatically. The technology was made up only as the law was put into place. In some cases manufactures couldn’t comply for the first year and paid a penalty on each engine because it didn’t comply.
The first few years things didn’t go so well. The new engines while polluting less was offset by less horsepower and worse fuel mileage. So more fuel was burned and put into the air offsetting the advantages of a cleaner motor. To achieve this new level of emissions the heat created in the new engines also lead to other problems, cracks in the cylinder walls the biggest one.
But truck are still moving up and down the highways with stiffer regulations for 2010. Why the auto industry still gets a free pass I can only guess is a better lobby in D.C.
http://wasteage.com/Trucks_And…..ther_road/
We are in Recession but will bounce back quickly out of it … esp. if the NeoCons get kicked out tomorrow and the Left takes over.
Our manufacturing base in shredded. Steve “Poodle #2″ Harper thought he could sustain economic growth with the OilSands and high energy prices, so he scuttled our manufacturing base.
The biggest problem is that Banks are not making credit available to buy/lease products and services. This has to be corrected and I don’t know what Barney Frank or anyone else has done over the past week to address that.
http://www.greencarcongress.co…..uck_u.html
My bold 20 to 50 percent better fuel efficiency from Oshkosh Trucks an American Company. I think all Diesel engines should have it.
The Left is poised to take over Canada when is the election?
Obama should use military funds to pay for this after all Ossama gets his cash from oil rich Arabs.
Bush couldn’t beat Ossama well to be fair he gave up looking for him.
But if we cut demand for oil we cut Ossama’s funding
Economic Warfare we need to fight Terror with our heads as well as our fists.
I caught that story yesterday, and Obama’s administration should see this as ridiculous as the private jet, and call Morgan Stanley and tell them to “Fix it”, as well.
Just unbelievable!
Jane can you get the MSM to talk about this subject?
Yeah holding oil in a tanker trying to cause the price to go up just hurts our economy more than any benefit Morgan Stanley will give the economy if they keep speculating.
It’s designed for city stop and go garbage collections, not all trucks.
If adaptation could be created for over the road and all trucks sure I’m all for it. I think everyone including the trucking industry realizes the days of the 3,000 mile Ceasar salad are coming to an end.
Carbon fiber’s expensive, no matter how much it’s mass produced. That’s one of the main reasons it’s not being used in such a way. Same thing with ceramic engine blocks, very expensive, and difficult to work with. Boeing can use CFRP for their airplanes, those in the market for something like that aren’t too worried about upfront costs, but tack on a few grand to a compact or sedan, and it will be a big deal.
There are alternatives though, CentrAl (Central Reinforced Aluminum) is one possibility. Lighter and cheaper than carbon fiber, and immune to metal fatigue.
I’m sure they can adjust it.
Raising CAFE standards and placing heavy taxes on heavy vehicles, like pickups, SUVs, and Hummers would also direct the market toward smaller and more fuel efficient cars.
You can have some flexibility. Smaller more fuel efficient SUVs might still be possible but their numbers could be limited by the overall CAFE standards or by applying different CAFE limits to different classes of vehicles and by adjusting the taxes, more than smaller cars less than heavier vehicles. If someone has a small business or is self-employed and needs a heavy pickup and uses it for say 90% business purposes, you could reduce taxes for them. The idea is that you can get the job done and still leave consumers with lots of choices.
You can also assess overall profitability of the industry by looking at number and types of vehicles, profit margins, and come up with numbers that will tell you how profitable or unprofitable the industry will be. Since this is an important segment of the economy, you can adjust the automakers’ tax structure accordingly.
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34052/118/
The composite layers are composites of what? Still I like it:)
They complained about being required to put in seat belts, back in the 60s.
They just don’t like being told they have to do something that reduces profits for a while, even if it makes their products safer or more economical. (They could probably make up for the lower profits by cutting executive pay, bonuses, and perks, but that’s unfair to the executives and we can’t have that, can we. /s)
It’s a fiber metal laminate, whatever that means. No idea how viable it is, but it’s good to see people pushing the limits.
Maybe we could get the Car Talk people here to help explain all this car tech sometime?
I’m not sure that everyone even me is following it all.
This where politcially problems begin. “I’m sure they can adjust it” is explosive, it’s viewed as ‘that is their problem not mine’. I have worked on both sides of the enviromental divide, there have to be consessions on both sides or the sides remain polarized.
What fiber does the strength of the fiber increase the materials strength?
Because if that is so I know we got researchers trying to mass produce Spider Silk.
IIRC selise once said that Morgan Stanley was the biggest owner of heating oil in the Northeast.
Oil has gone up in the last week but today is only at $43. So the space for oil speculation is not great. There is still a lot of deflationary pressure on oil and Morgan Stanley’s play could end up much like Merrill Lynch continuing to buy mortgages because they thought the market had bottomed out, i.e. not well. But your larger point is true. Morgan Stanley is trying to speculate rather than use its resources (in part provided by taxpayer loans) to more productive purposes.
If the eco-fascists force the Camaro, Corvette, Challenger, Viper and Mustang to be sacrificed at the altar over this, I. Will. Be. Pissed. Why do the Greenpeace alarmists hate anything resembling fun-to-drive.
And keep the hybrids and electric cars out of my face. It’s just not the same.
I have no idea, you’d probably have to ask the people who came up with it.
Sure it will take time to adjust and Oshkosh’s system will always do better in city driving like the Prius does.
But Diesels are best at long hauls and heavy loads I think a BMW diesel beat the Prius on millage for a cross country trip.
This tech just makes it better for City driving.
That would be true if they had the cash right now to adapt their entire line to California standards but they don’t. And big gas guzzlers are unquestionably their most profitable vehicles. For once they have a point.
But the give needs to be on the other end — I’m not saying that emissions standards shouldn’t be raised, quite the opposite. I’m just saying we should be willing to pay for higher fuel standards, and be honest about what we’re doing. Because pretending that companies can be profitable while they’re in the process of scrapping their old gas-hog lines (which with low gas prices is where all their revenue is coming from right now) is a fantasy. They’re not going to be profitable even if they don’t.
And also, as Duncan likes to say — SUPERTRAINS!!!
A laminate means that it is made up of layers glued together. This could be alternating layers of aluminum and carbon fibers or a mixed aluminum/carbon fiber layer which is applied successively (as in different orientations).
Tesla has a very fast Electric Sports car:)
http://www.teslamotors.com/
In the spring Toyota will begin selling it’s new Prius that gets over 50 mpg and is the least expensive car in america to own and operate. Ford will unveil the larger Focus that will get 41 mpg. The cars we need are here- but the normal Focus will outsell the hybrid version three to one and the Prius will not compete well with the normal Camry..The problem is the consumer who is still unmotivated to buy these cars- even though Toyota has price the Prius so low that they are reputed to be losing money on every car.
This manufacturer extensively uses carbon fiber in most of it’s body panels and the whole underside for lightweight and less wind drag. It isn’t cost effective and is somewhat brittle in everyday real world use.
http://www.ferrariusa.com/index8by6.php
So they are using Carbon fibers then or some other material? I’m not doubting just curious.
Low weight is important but so is safety and research has shown that cars that weigh less than 3,000 pounds have serious safety problems. The Prius tips the scales at just 3,000 pounds for that reason.
This gets to the point that we need to rethink many different aspects of our transportation network but also community planning. More concentrated communities with good bus services, bicycle and pedestrian pathways, etc. instead of the spreadout California model of endless suburbia and strip malls. The trucking industry has a lot of political clout but rail is cheaper especially if you factor in subsidies and barges are cheaper yet.
High Speed Freight so Ships in Seattle can unload stuff directly on to a train instead of having truckers carry it.
Truckers would just do short hops from the Train station to the store.
Plus high speed monorails for passengers:)
The big three know how to make lighter cars- the original compact cars like Ford Falcons were close to 2,000 pounds- and had a lot of room inside. (Well sure they kind of exploded in a crash- but they were LIGHT).
It’s not entirely clear what this blog is about, but I believe it is primarily calling for the imposition of a federal gasoline tax on consumers as a fiscal measure to shift consumer demand from low-mileage to high-mileage cars. If that’s the case, it’s harebrained and stupid.
The motor car industry has been catering to waste for decades, always agreeing to ‘ideal goals’ but without ever having any intention of reaching them. It’s all charade, all the time.
The whole thing should just be allowed to play out to the bitter end without fiscal or monetary intervention. At some point the hard lesson has to be learned in the only way Americans can be taught. Then you pick up the pieces and start over from scratch.
It is not necessary to build and distribute cars at a national level. It can be state by state or region by region. Decentralization of manufacture could be a positive boon, bring on more competition. Higher environmental standards and loftier economy goals can be pursued at the regional level, at the very least. Reduce the importance of Washington in these areas.
It’s the perpetual war-economy led by Washington that pushes the country in the opposite direction of where they should be, towards centralization of manufacture, with decisions taken by the relative few able to attain positions of power at the highest levels of the centralized economy. All the pathologies of the environment and social-economic milieu stem from this pernicious impulse towards a center of social and economic power. This must end.
No read the comments.
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3244
Read the Diary
I have no idea what they’re using, you’d have to ask them.
Oh, my husband keeps talking about that one. Wish I had the money. I might have to settle for buying him a poster of one.
My 1973 BMW is 2,800 pounds and gets close to 30mpg.
What it doesn’t have are gov’t mandated air bags, crumple zones and a host of electronic systems that would probably add 1,000 pounds to the vehicle weight.
There are various ways to address this. 1)If you reduce truck traffic by shifting to alternate transportation like rail and barge. 2) You can do what they do in France where trucks are barred from moving on weekends. 3)You can increase the strength and integrity of the passenger compartment and use more air bags. 4) As the overall fleet size decreases so does the monsters versus the midgets problem.
Commercial light trucks are a great place to start fixing things. Owners of these fleets tend to keep them for many years- so longer term arguments about cost saving would appeal to them. Mercedes is working on a diesel/hybrid version of their commercial van- (sold here as the Dodge Sprinter) that already gets 27 mpg and could get 100 as a plug in It might cost $10 grand more- but if the owner operates it for 10 years, they will see a rather nice return on that investment- now may a pick up truck with the same power plant.
Well, Ferraris not making compacts or sedans, and their target market usually thinks more expensive and impractical is a good thing.
Yes in the long term the risk to one ton cars will diminish- but really- the Prius size is fine- close to zero emissions and 51 mpg with the lowest ownership costs in the industry. Why doesn’t it have at least 50% market share? People don’t like the way it looks, people want to to zero to 60 in six seconds, people want to impress their friends, people take their identity from their car and want a car with BIG ONES, etc. That’s the real problem here I’m afraid.
The GOP hates Commies so anything the Commies did is reflexively wrong.
The Commies tried and failed at Centralization as Stalin and Mao killed the educated Elite who you need to make a Centralized Bureaucracy work.
The Bush/Sarah wing of the GOP hate educated Elites too I think that this is something common to all Authoritarian Systems Left and Right.
Other countries have made it work National Healthcare is a Prime example.
Are you taking taxes on already owned vehicles or new sales? I thought the Hummer was going to be discontinued?
I own a 1998 2 wheel drive Explorer, work from home at times only drive it 1-2 days a week, when I go, the back gets filled for that trip and used as it’s purpose to haul 4-5 adults. It is paid for, well tuned up and I have no intention to getting rid of it for years. This last year I don’t think I drove 1000 miles.
Also- the same research that showed danger for cars less than 3,000 pounds found no added safety for cars OVER 3,000 pounds. You aren’t safer in a 5,000 pound SUV- despite many opinions to the contrary.
The price of carbon fiber is unreal. Repacing a body panel gets into 5 digits.
Then there is the question of how much energy is needed to produce materials. If it takes 50 barrels of oil to produce the composite materials to make a lightweight car, is it outweighed by the fact of using 10 barrels to produce a vehicle of standard material?
This is a wonderful recipe for how to create a depression. The problem is that millions of people suffer. There are ways of handling both the auto industry and larger economy that keep this real hurt to real people to a minimum. We need to keep both the auto industry and the economy going for the moment and it doesn’t matter particularly how but this short term action should not be used as an excuse to avoid coming up with a longer term plan for the reindustrialization and restructuring of the infrastructure of the country. Shorter version: We need to address the current mess in the here and now but we also need a direction for the future.
Tesla Roadster is moderately fast, but nowhere near very fast. It’s priced in the same segment as the Corvette ZR1, which will blow it away. Tesla Roadster’s 0-60 is 3.9, Corvette ZR1 does it in 3.4 I think. Plus, the Corvette has the added advantage of not just being a Lotus chassis with an electric motor in it. If you want an electric car you can really brag about, just wait for when SSC finishes their electric version of the Aero.
They will also see a nice rate of return from lower taxes if everyone buys one and oil prices go down leaving the Arabs less money to give to Ossama.
The auto industry is currently begging the govt for a gas tax- so that they can PLAN for fuel efficiency with the knowledge that the cars will sell. What will sell at $2 per gallon will sit and rot and $5 per gallon and the whole industry knows that.
A large percentage of vehicles are bought by govt at all levels. Setting standards for those vehicles would guarantee a market for LOW mpg cars.
Anyone who has ridden on a high speed trail in Europe understands how wonderful their rail transportation system is. You can take the train from London to Paris through the chunnel and it takes 1 1/2 hrs end to end. I can travel from Paris to Milan Italy via high speed trail in 5 hours and it goes over some of the Alps.
Right now is the perfect time to be buying up land and start a high speed train system. Would like to see a rail line from LA to Seattle, LA across the west to Atlanta pretty much along I-10. I would rather take a day to travel via train to NYC than going through all the hassle from TSA.
5 tenths of a percent is blowing away the other car? But what about the price of Gas or all the time lost filling up the tank:)
Why?
Ever watch that con where you have to guess under which cup the pea can be found?
General Motors to Invest $1 Billion in Brazil Operations — Money to Come from U.S. Rescue Program
http://www.laht.com/article.as…..eId=320909
A few years ago I watched the Kabuki theater of GM execs explaining to Congress how they couldn’t, wouldn’t, make US vehicles that operated on bio fuel mixes, while making them in Brazil!
The big three have to make fuel efficient cars for their foreign markets(Japan, Europe), why not make them meet or beat those standards here?
All they are doing is raiding the wallets of US consumers to provide for their operations elsewhere, as do Pharma, Microsoft………….
I can hardly wait it took days for me to go from Seattle to Chicago on the train.
We just voted for a high speed rail system from San Diego to San Francisco and all points in between. Hopefully it will be done before we all die.
I was using the Hummer as a metaphor for the big, heavy, and inefficient. I would tax hard on sales to discourage such models entering the fleet. This would reduce the market and eliminate the desire of automakers to make them. If you can’t sell very many of something, then the costs of building them goes up further discouraging their production. The idea is not to punish people who made decisions under different conditions but to move the industry and consumers away from persisting in production and consumer patterns you don’t want.
For example, everyone keeps saying that Americans love their SUVs. Well they weren’t loving them so much when gas was around $4 a gallon. They wouldn’t love them so much if they had to pay a big penalty tax to own one.
As opposed to all the time lost recharging for 8 hours every 200 miles? And that half a second is just the 0-60 times. The ZR1 also has a considerably higher top speed. The Tesla’s is electronically limited to 125, but the only reason they’d do that to a sports car is because their unlimited top speed isn’t much better. ZR1’s top speed is around 200 mph. And as far as sports cars go, the ZR1’s fuel economy is far from the worst. 14 city, 20 highway, its Italian competition doesn’t do as well.
The Tesla’s biggest problem seems to be that it was built by people who don’t know cars. People don’t buy sports cars because they’re green, they buy them because they’re fast and they look cool.
$5 per gallon gas fixes this problem- and we probably don’t have long to wait. The issue is getting READY for it so that we have the solutions on line when the crisis comes- and we need to be prepared for $15 per gallon gas within 20 years. That’s a whole different kettle of fish.
Spencer is upstairs with a new post: Gates on Gitmo: Away From The Numbers.
And the reason that anyone needs or should be allowed to own a car that can go 125 mph or 200 mph is?
Denmark and Israel will just swap out the batteries at their charging stations.
I’m not advocating for big SUV’s but I want to know what the country is to do with the millions of these vehicles both used and new. Are we to just send them to the crusher and make them go away?
What about those people who live out in rural areas, have these larger vehicles for a purpose. When I lived in Oregon I owned a F150 supercab long wide bed because I had a hobby farm. I hauled kids, farm animals, feed, hay and straw, firewood, lumber, etc….. Do you penalize rural people for “working” vehicles?
My Dad has pretty much the same truck but it is new, he builds houses for Habitat, hauls his tools and picks up other workers to the site. He only drives it the days he works for Habitat. What about construction companies and service companies. The plumbers van.
This needs to be thought out seriously without penalizing trades and working trucks, vans and SUV’s.
Pickup trucks will always be with us- they move the country. It’s the logical place to go next for fuel economy- many pick up owners would LOVE to get 30 mpg or so- and it can be done.
That’s an interesting concept- it will be interesting to see if it works. The idea, as I understand it, is that you buy the car and LEASE the batteries. The battery lease is $300 per month or so. Seems a little steep.
Here’s the plan they should present:
1. Assume that the Federal Government will henceforth provide healthcare coverage to all residents.
2. Assume that the Federal Government will henceforth replace all vehicles in its fleet with American-made electric or other green-energy vehicles.
Voila! The car companies would now be in the black. In fact, without having to pay for their employees healthcare, they could afford to raise wages a modest amount.
Well as I said upthread you can adjust taxes for small businesses and self employed who use and need larger pickups. As for what you do with those still on the road, there is attrition that will take most out within 10-20 years and you provide incentives to move to more fuel efficient models.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/169161
US automakers need to build cars as good as the Prius for that segment- and get ahead of the world on pickups and commercial vans. In addition, there is a great opportunity for a hybrid powered mini van or tall wagon. Someone will be a winner in that segment. A Rondo or Mazda 5 sized vehicle with a Prius type drive train could be a winner as car size shrinks.
In the meantime, all need to find a way to be profitable within a year and have all electric or plug ins in the pipeline for the future- but I don’t think they will be economically viable for some time.
In more bad news for electric car lovers, the Think company in Norway has just declared bankruptcy in the very year that they hoped to turn into the red. Lack of financing apparently killed them. Their “city” car was in production able to go over 100 miles on a charge and 65 mph or so- and was scheduled for a US debut this year.
Estimated to sell for 30 grand or so- but very small.
If all US governments agree that after a certain date (say three years from now) they won’t buy any car that gets less than 50 mpg, the carmakers would have a profit target to aim at.
Thanks, Jane!
Not very many construction workers can afford hybrid trucks, and diesel is not efficient in cold weather (needs additives and must remain idle for extended periods of time between drives.
Also, why is everyone pushing for these plug-in electric cars? I can’t use an incandescent bulb at home but I’m supposed to charge my freaking car daily? Ridiculous. Wait until the infrastructure is there for the alternatives.
they were struggling through the SUV boom in 2004 – 2005 as well. A lot was blamed on union related labor costs and while that is still a problem especially in some aspects the cost of dealerships is now their greatest promised. Look at The big 3 compared to other companies during the “good years”
yep that would do it, Just have the government give the big 3 $100 billion dollars to modernize all their factories to become up to date with their overseas competitors. Then subsidize the ultra light weight materials that would be required to produce the vehicles that Americans desire (ie large sized for family travel, different work need, among many other reasons Americans “need” these big vehicles). Europe and Japan have a vast public transportation system because of the close proximity that they live to many things. Americans don’t seem to understand that we are spoiled and our middle class has the opportunity to own land and houses with property with a 30 year even 15 year mortgage for relatively cheap compared to lifetime 90 year mortgages overseas and most even upper middle class live in condos cause to own land is just unrealistic. Wake up America, you must compare apples to apples when making comparisons, understand before you talk, ask questions before you answer!!!
I’ve always liked the promise of fuel cells, especially in regards to the emissions (though I’m not sure that creating the hydrogen in the first place is all that clean). But we have to have infrastructure and that’s one very good place for government to kick in. Nobody is going to invest in hydrogen generation until there’s a market, and there’s no market without the supply and a distribution network, that won’t be built until there’s a supply and a consumer… Somebody has to kick-start that process. And it’s an infrastructure project, having to do with green energy! Fits in with Obama’s priorities! Win win!
The right wingers on the radio are making a big deal out the fact Obama wants to force the American automakers to abide by cafe standards. They think it will bankrupt the automakers while catering to the foreign automakers who won’t have to abide by the same rules. Well, from what I can tell, Americans are wanting more efficient/green cars and if GM and others become the front runner for this kind of car, then they will be profitable, right? Makes sense to me.