MoDo has had a major shit-fit over Gillibrand, resulting in these well-tempetered remarks from yours truly.

This is going to get complicated, better? worse? dunno, but messy? prolly.

Actually, I think this is the best friend Gillibrand’s ever had.

I read that Schumer had a hand in things as well.

Lawrence O’Donnell lost me when he said my girls should go fight in Iraq. He advocated for a draft.

MoDo and Odo. Ge’ez, talk about the cream of CelebCorps!

Gillibrand has got to be laughing her ass off right now.

Gee, I kind of think that O’Donnell is right on. Also, even though I don’t always agree with Maureen, she kind of hits it on the mark with this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01…..5dowd.html

Gillibrand kind of reminds me of Palin.

NY could have done a lot better. I think Paterson needs to be looking for a new job, he will not survive the primary.

One of the truly disgusting and unfair things is that if you need federal education aid and are male, you have to go register.

Really? wow.

Agreed. Paterson will go down in political history as ‘the guy who got to be NY governor for a while because Elliot Spitzer couldn’t keep his zipper zipped and then screwed up his chance.’ Sick a fork in Paterson; he’s done – and the guy who will do it in the primary is Andrew Cuomo.

As a Naval Officer and an employee of the DoD for 32 years, it is my firm belief that the Nation does need a draft. The all-volunteer services that we currently have are not representative of our people.

Morning PW. Very interesting. Kind of feel like, “what Al said.”

If she’s willing to listen and have her mind changed, maybe even change her positions to represent the whole state, she may turn out to be — wait for it — better than Ms. Kennedy would have been.

I’ve been disappointed in Caroline Kennedy from the beginning of this mess, when she seemed to think the Senate is dynastic, and she could have a seat for the asking. When all the bad news came out (not voting, etc) and her ‘campaign’ turned so tone-deaf, the disappointment only deepened.

Honestly, we do need politicians, and Caroline, it seems, isn’t one. Of course we want politicians to be honest and transparent and to share our positions, but a good politician is to be preferred over someone who hasn’t a clue how to legislate or represent people she doesn’t really know.
Lincon, after all, was a very good politician.
Overall, wait and see. More like this…I’ll be on her side. (KG’s side)

If this turns into Manhattan versus Everyone Else, having Senator Pothole and Al Sharpton in her corner certainly won’t hurt Gillibrand.

My position is that if there is a draft, if must be completely and crushingly fair – no exemptions for college kids, gender, etc. If we are going to make it ‘national service’, then national it has to be.

Thanks PW.

My hubby always gets annoyed at the many many folks who casually refer to “New York” the state, but in actuality speak and think only of New York City. New York State is BIG and COMPLICATED, cross-hatched every which-a-way by political fault lines. And “down-staters” aren’t the only ones with strong opinions and no qualms about speaking their minds with jarring directness. I say this as one who grew up in southern NY, and lived upstate half a decade. I like the state’s diversity and its “spunky” people.

I’ll be sure to stay tuned as you experts flesh out the complications of what surely will be a soap opera at the very least.

*fastens seatbelt*

Sounds to me like Paterson wanted a primary challenge and that’s what he’s going to get. Plus he threw the Blue Dogs a bone, if they can keep it. 2010’s going to be fun in New York State!

As Markos pointed out the other day, she’s already shifted her stance on gay rights to line up with the rest of the state’s. That’s something she couldn’t have done when she was running for NY-20.

As a young person, I say no thank you to a draft. I seek to understand and persuade others through education, not aggression.

Females too!

As far as serving my country, I choose to do so through a career in education. If that is not serving your country, then tell me what is…

Agreed on that, but gimme a war worth fighting before my girls enlist.

Paterson is showing how easily one can betray one’s values when placed in power with all those lobbyists cooing in your ear.

It has been proven a million times that tax cuts for the rich do not help an economy – they don’t create jobs and they don’t create investment in INFRACTURE or capital improvements. The tax money saved goes into wall street financial “instruments” chasing “asset bubbles” for higher ROIs

But the rich want their money, they “earned” it and they don’t want it given to welfare lay abouts who spend it on pot and crack.

KG was clearly not the best person to pick to fill the seat.

Isn’t that what a ‘tsuris’ is?

Anyone know the Yiddish for ‘If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, Mohammed will go to the mountain’?

How about the War on Christmas ? *g*

I absolutely agree. I also believe in other forms of National Service instead of the Military. But no exemptions, period.

Shift with the winds. Really the kind of honesty we need more of. Figure out what the least offensive positions are and run on them. Lovely.

Could we have done ‘better’ than KG? Possibly – but she does have something that no one in the field has: She worked for years on Wall Street – so she’s got NYC ‘cred’ (as in, she’s not a rube) AND she has lived upstate and represented a district that’s got all sorts of stuf in it: Ag, Saratoga Springs, areas up into the Adirondacks(natural resources), areas south of Albany(commercial and industrial). Whether you like her politics or not, in terms of being able to say to voters, “I know what your concerns ARE’ and actually sound convincing, she’s got a lot going for her. Suozzi and Cuomo are the only ones who’ve got upstate and downstate connections. The rest are strictly New York City people.

How about compulsory education for everyone in addition to compulsory service for everyone.

I’ve been fighting that war for years!

Didn’t Rangal advocate for the draft also? I think the reasons sounded completely political, linked to the class-war aspects of an out-of-balance economic system that essentially forces a disproportionate number of less wealthy and less privileged people to enter the military and face lethal risk, while the “elite” skate free.

A draftee based military would make it much more difficult for a president to send the nation into a war of choice.

Many nations demand compulsory service- your choice of the military or some other type.

Didja get my hugs on Marcy’s site ?

O’Donnell’s premise that being the offspring of politicians somehow qualifies a person for elected office is a complete load of crap.

This is the hack world producing the hack result that the hacks are happy with.

Well, if there’s one thing O’Donnell has proven he knows about, it’s hacks. Since he is one.

I think we need to stop sending congress critters to DC to bring home pork for their districts/regions… which masquerades as representing the local interests in DC.

If we are are nation we have in interest in all regions being successful and healthy. We need to stop this regionalism and tribalism approach to politics. But that will never happen.

As we all sadly know, not all education in this country is created equal. I seriously hope that education becomes a priority in this country. Our k-12 education system is antiquated and needs to be completely re-designed

Yes.

Yes, Rangel did and his position was that if there were a totally fair draft, we would never go to war since rich white people would never allow their kids to be endangered. I think that argument kept that piece of legislation off the table for a long time.

I did! Hugs back.

How does it make it more difficult?

Unfortunately, that was also the same reasoning behind having a Volunteer Army as well.

nevermind, tobly @ 38 explained

As a pacifist, compassionate heathen, I would be honored to stand with you, if you’ll permit me.

See my 25. Education is core and as long as it is National Service, it certainly fits my idea of a couple of years for young people to serve something bigger than themselves. The draft is only one option. But it must be mandatory with no loop holes to really work.

hahaha…I seem to have joined the wobblybits tribe. Love it!

I have a tribe? hahaha

come on, guys..grab your chairs and coffee cups — BT is upstairs….

Yes—it was thought that with an all volunteer army, when they started getting killed in mass quantities, the politicians could say “well- they volunteered for it” as Cheney did say.

Well, you are wobbly and I am now Tobly (see your remark)…I think we must have swapped blood or something..

Folks, I have to leave for a bit. Didn’t mean to stir up the blog on the draft, etc. However, I do think that service to our Nation for a couple of years for young people is good for them and the Country. It could be in many forms – education, community, Peace Corps, military, etc. Just so it is compulsory and everyone must serve.

Cheers!!

That is what happens when one types without the aid of coffee or black tea.

Wait for me. One more pacifist at the table.

I don’t think you’ll find many who will disagree with you on principle. The devil is always in the details.

Absolutely!! The more, the merrier

for Adie @ 43

Again, I’m with you. Bush/Cheney proved to me, beyond all reasonable doubt, that if leaders are crazy and/or evil enough, they will carry out war whether it’s “justified” or not, based on lies or on truth, insane or idiotic. Look how quickly and easily a majority of the press, leaders of all sorts, citizens of all sorts joined the race to jump on board dumbya’s manic “crusade against evil.”

I would NEVER support a draft.

Politically, the all volunteer army has been a great success. Over four thousand troops killed in Iraq and not one draft card burned that I have seen.

Hee hee hee. Always did have a soft spot in my heart for a good stubborn pacifist with a stable full of tigers.

On a more serious note, you’ve “been there”, yes? You know. You’d think others would have learned.

‘War. What’s it good for?!’

‘One nuke can spoil your whole day’

‘Make love, not war’

THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER WAY.

P. E. A. C. E.

If you don’t see it, try harder.

I agree on all points on top of the fact that war ruins/destroys lives

/s ???

exactly. war only births and feeds ill will.

*breaks open new box of tissues*

War is a HEQQ of a nasty method of birth control.

Who knows what’s evil or crazy? 9/11 happened and required countermeasures. It’s starting to look like the attack had been lurking and waiting until schmucks and mountebanks were in charge.

Had today’s blogs existed in 2000 Bush could not have made it through the primaries.

Sorry, I’m with MoDo & O’Donnell on this — Gillibrand has already voted against Obama twice — on the stimulus package — so her Street creds don’t go far when her self-interest (i.e., in this case, her Update base) gets in the way. She is a Stepford Hillary. The only difference is generational — Hillary married someone she thought she could turn into a President back when only boys could be Presidents, and Kirsten married someone who is disqualified from being President so he won’t get in her way. Gillibrand’s collegues don’t call her Tracy Flick because of her hair color.

The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

So does she pronounce her name Gillibrand of Jillibrand?

The media asschappers turned the named pronounced Collin Powell into Colon Powell..

-G

I believe it is the soft G sound.

The only stimulus package MoDo cares aout is the one between her legs.

I still think it would have been better to have a REAL progressive liberal voting from now until the 2010 election (Caroline Kennedy) to help Obama with his agenda and then take the next 2 years to find another progressive liberal to run of the seat (if Kennedy didn’t work out). But that’s me. Now that Gillibrand is in there, let’s hope the people she represents keeps her looking forward.

Gracias.

Is there just no limit to tacky?

No.

This has been another case of simple answers …

I used to listen to the O’Donnell-moderated Left Right and Center show until his ‘center’ succeeded in pissing me off.
Tony Blankley makes more sense on that show, and that’s a low bar indeed.
LO strikes me as a poster child for why the Republican’s ’succeeded’ for 12 years.

Under normal circumstances, this blog would be trashing Gillibrand as a “blue dog” seven ways to Sunday.

Under present circumstances, it is necessary to make her look good.

It’s like they say — all politics is local.

Patterson seems lost and out of his league. I’d like to see a primary challenger to him.

Gillibrand is really a sharp political operative and very, very ambitious. Odonell’s criticism is 180 degrees off. Gillibrand’s district is subject to an unregulated natural gas drilling gold rush. Gillibrand declined to sign on for a moratorium on gas drilling, I would guess out of a conservative’s valuing property rights over environmental concerns.

Thanks. That seems to be the forgotten point in all of this.

Your comment bothers me greatly, but maybe I caused a large part of my own trouble by “talking” in shorthand.

Who knows what’s evil or crazy? 9/11 happened and required countermeasures.

Maybe our differences are in the details. I do not believe people per se are evil but, yes, I could label a particular act as evil in intent, without conjuring up horns and garlic necklaces.

Crazy is another problematic word, easy to use in slang, hard to use for a specific act unless out of frustration over the lack of identifiable causes and, I suspect, definitely outmoded in the field of psychology.

9/11 happened. Duh. Yes, I watched almost all of the sequence of dramatic events that were televised. We could speculate forever over causes without even getting on to details.

Ah: “countermeasures”. The biggest sticking point in a quick narrative, and one that has caused and will continue to occupy a considerable amount of thought, recriminations, lifetimes, lives, broken families, misdeeds, malfeasance?, financial profiteering, lying, serious erosion of our nation’s Constitution, abuse of world-wide standards of human rights, de-railing of efforts to maintain peace in the world, the world economy?, reputation of the United States and its citizens, lives of innocents, so… many… lives….

Use teh Google. We endorsed her.

First I wish good things for you and for New York’s young senator. Second but more important I believe that killing is always wrong. Last and most important, we have been living insane since the nuclear clock was first set. Maybe living in denial of nuclear fear and anxiety is like evil? (’Countermeasures’ isn’t my word, but I used it because it’s how some strategic thinkers speak; my inspiration is Lewis Thomas’s “Late Night Thoughts on Listening to Mahler’s Ninth Symphony”). Cheers

OMG if one more person compares Kirsten Gillibrand to Sarah Palin my head will explode!

You realize KG has an undergrad degree from Dartmouth, a law degree from UCLA, and speaks fluent Mandarin? Sarah Palin doesn’t even speak English!

Sheesh.

Thank you for your further comments.

We now have called OH home for 30+ years, so you needn’t try to sooth my frazzled NY nerves, nor my feelings about Gillibrand or any other NY political matters. They are sure to be lively in the future, as in the past.

Several things to share:

Nice to see you here and hope we cross paths more at FDL.

“Killing is always wrong” – some would argue, but I simply can’t. In my mind, it is no answer to anything, provokes of retaliation in kind, and simply can’t be policy in a humane society. (having gray hair, I can get away with saying such a “stupid” thing; i’ve seen and experienced too much to change my mind)

IMO, nuclear is forever WRONG, whether for weapons or power plants. There is no safe way. Ours and future generations will suffer from the experiment as it is. NO. MORE. would be my counsel, but few will heed. It’s out there. Voinovich of OH calls it “clean” – Idiot.

I haven’t read/heard Lewis Thomas’s work (but I’ll look him up). However, I have a lifetime of experience relishing classical music, and we even hatched a classical pro. hautbois who regularly plays principal on Mahler – 9 and the others, plus much more that makes people shout with joy or sigh with deep emotional understanding for which there may be no language but music.

Perhaps we share a tad more than we thot.

P. E. A. C. E. to you and yours.

Isn’t there already compulsory education? Oh, you mean past high school.

How about 10% off 1st year college tuition free, and for each course the student passes, 10% rebate on course fee. Double those amounts for 2nd year courses. Double again for 3rd year courses. All those $$ go into an education savings plan for the student.

I take it you are referring to the 2006 “Blue America” endorsement, the effects of which are summed up here:
http://downwithtyranny.blogspo…..s-how.html

Oh, *I* get it — BA NEVER changes its mind, no matter how bad its choices screw it over after they’re elected. Er……Chris Carney, anyone?

O.k., I read that extraordinary piece by Lewis Thomas. Sounds as if he had things pretty straight, and didn’t flinch from the truth.

My way of not flinching: I recognize the horrific nuclear potential, abhor the blithely ignorant promotion of more and more nuclear (where to put the waste, how to keep it safe in transit, how to promise it won’t permeate any place it is stored…. note , this doesn’t even begin to touch on weapon-related danger, and we’re already toast.)

I do what I can to further understanding among others, and promote good will. Yeah, silly. But no sillier than storing tons & tons of highly toxic nuclear material with a half-life longer than anyone now living.

Finally, I attend symphony concerts regularly and take my Mahler straight-up, thank you. I wish I could share with you a recording with our sonny playing something stunningly moving. Classical music is addicting, as you may know.

Once, when I had a quartet that did weddings etc., with purely classical, mostly baroque which was more luscious than some wedding cakes, one bride’s father insisted on us performing for his approval before he agreed to the deal. He had insisted he hated baroque music, and would not put up with any such stuff. So, part way through our “audition”, without announcement or fanfare, we dashed through some Handel and then Telemann. In the end, we were promptly hired by a sheepish dad who said, “I still don’t like baroque music, but I love what you played.” sigh.

We don’t have to be stuffy, elitist, or preachy, but we must not give up. Which means, it’s good personally to enjoy the good in life, and to share that good feeling. Maybe lightening will strike and the feeling will spread sufficiently to save us all.

We can’t just do nothing. We each do what we can. And we meet-up at places like the FDLake to troubleshoot and plan, and to replenish the spirit with comradery.

Oh, hi. I lived and learned in OH, 1961-1969, aka the Sixties. (b/c the diary is about Gillibrand is why I wished you and her well in the same sentence and b/c I wondered if I’d been read out wrong).

Wow. I thought I was lucky when I could walk past Glenn Gould’s house in Toronto and merely imagine him playing inside with the windows open.

& blessings (from Wm Blake: Damn braces, bless relaxes)

Jonathan Schell’s The Fate Of The Earth was a required text in one of my courses, so were Bill McKibben’s The Age Of Missing Information and The End of Nature required. I grew up alongside Annie Dillard and August Wilson in Pgh (streetcar tracks divided us) when William Steinberg conducted there; I had season tickets when Isaac Stern performed there near the end of his life. When they wrote in class my students listened to the Guarneri String Quartet (usually) playing Beethoven. FDL has fine acoustics!