Over at the Telegraph, Evans-Pritchard points out that UK banks have 4.4 Trillion dollars in foreign liabilities – twice the size of the UK’s entire economy.
He argues that:
We cannot even do what Iceland did to save its skin. Reykjavik refused to honour the foreign debts of its buccaneering banks. It let them default, parking the losses in Resolution Committees. Small islands can do that. Iceland has fish instead, and lots of metals.
Britain cannot follow suit. The debts are too big. If London takes such disastrous action it will set off global panic and lead to an asset death spiral, drawing the entire world into deep depression.
He ladles out blame (correctly, imo):
What have our leaders wrought? The reckless conduct of City, the fiscal incontinence of Gordon Brown (3pc deficit at the top of the cycle), and the pitiful regulation of the UK housing boom have all combined to bring the country to the brink of disaster.
And the blame he ladles, I think fits exactly with the US – the reckless conduct of Wall Street, the fiscal incontinence of George Bush, and the pitiful regulation of the US housing boom have all combined to bring the country to the brink of disaster.
Obama appears to have settled on a "bad bank" as his next step in "solving" the problem. What the bad bank will do is buy up distressed assets held by financial institutions, for more than they’re worth (no point in buying them at market prices, that’s what everyone’s trying to avoid). They will keep those assets in the bad bank and sell them when they’re worth more. The reason this is necessary is probably that the Fed, which is holding many of these assets right now as collateral for loans, needs to either get them off its books or sell a lot of bonds (or officially create a lot of fiat money).
This amounts to another giant transfer of wealth from the average American to the US’s financial elites. During the years when they were "making" record profits through the old fashioned method of fraud, they paid themselves record bonuses. Now their losses will be largely paid off by ordinary Americans, while they keep the bonuses they earned in the so-called good years.
It is quite likely that the financial sector as a whole, after losses are apportioned, did not actually make any profits in the last ten years, and in fact destroyed a great deal of wealth in an orgy of losses.
Moving the debts around does not get rid of them. They still exist, and they must still be paid off. It’s just that instead of the people who caused the losses and earned the huge salaries and bonuses being wiped out, instead of stockpayers being wiped out, instead of those who loaned the money to financial institutions being wiped out, the pain is going to be spread over the entire economy.
Odds are you never saw any of the good years, most Americans didn’t. But you’re sure going to pay for the hangover.
Some socialization of these losses is necessary, if only to stop a cascade effect. But that should occur after the stockholders have been wiped out, after laws have been written requiring claw backs of compensation based on earnings which were fraudulent, and so on. At the same time tax loopholes allowing money to be taken out of the country need to be closed and marginal tax rates need to be increased. Why? Because at the end of the day the class that benefited from the last 8 years was the very rich – the 1 percenters. Even with laws to try and claw back the profits, those who benefitted the most should be forced to pay the most to clean up the mess they created.
90% marginal tax rates on all income over one million would be a good start. Not only would it put the bill for this mess on those who made and benefited from the mess, it would make it much less likely that another fiasco will ensue. As long as executives and key money managers know that in a four or five years they can make enough money so they’ll be rich for the rest of their lives, they will always be willing to engage in risky activities and outright fraud, so long as they figure they can get away with it for a few years. Fail to make it impossible, and it will happen again, especially as it has now been proven that when it all blows up, the government will step in and pay most of the losses.
Privatize the profits, socialize the risks means that what happened will happen again. It’s not just about "regulation", it’s about incentives. Fixing regulations alone, even assuming it’s done properly, will not prevent a repeat.
It’s unclear the economies of either the US or Britain can survive the current mess, especially if it continues to be mishandled. They certainly won’t be able to handle a repeat.



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greetings, Ian
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If anyone wonders how a Labor government permitted itself to be part of all this thievery, I blame Murdoch.
Not sure income tax rates will do it. These guys have already socked away their wealth at low rates. We’ll need a tax on accumulated capital.
it seems there is no safe place for my money. my ira continues its mad descent and i see no viable alternative. they’re stealing my money, with my tacit consent and knowledge, and the system is rigged to discourage me from reacting in any sane manner.
I agree. The golden parachutes need to be punctured. It ain’t right. Pay up.
I bought “air time” through STRS. State Teachers Retirement System in CA. I wish I’d listened to Ian early on…before the decent…but decided to cut my losses.
Dugg.
Thanks very much Ian.
I’m wondering if Obama has offered Caroline a job.
worse than i thought.
what do you think the situation is for usa banks?
are not regulations the way we create the incentives we want? or are you thinking of something else?
btw, i’m becoming a big fan of doing things to get the very rich to think more long term and less short term because in good times especially it is only in the long term that their and our interests begin to align. the marginal tax rate you’ve proposed helps do that.
If Evans-Pritchard thinks that Iceland’s conservative Government “saved itself” by declaring that it wouldn’t honor it’s debts, he should think again. There are currently riots in Reykavijk because the government won’t call for new elections. Meanwhile the banks continue on as usual, keeping their Directors, one the former Conservative Prime Minister, David Oddson, who was responsible for deregulating the banking industry.
Unemployment has risen 45% between November and December. 40% of households and 70% of businesses were technically bankrupt.
Despite the chaos the main item on the parliamentary agenda,~ a Conservative party bill which allow supermarkets to sell alcohol. At least the Icelanding people can become alcoholics in the ruins of their once wealthy nation. But don’t ask for any treatment programs~ this is the same government that dismantled the country’s socialized medical system.
Regulations mostly aren’t incentives (though some negative legal incentives are in there). Incentives as I’m using it means “what we reward you for”. Shouldn’t reward people for destroying the financial system. They’ll just do it again. Too high compensation change incentives to short term from long term and banks should not be managed short term, neither should almost any other financial institution.
Heh. At least it gave me a good time on Saturday night. I went to a 50 BDAY party of my hunter friend. Another guest, who I had not met before, is a Wall St. lawyer. I attacked Wall St. with a vengeance. He had all the R talking points about how it was all CRA and Fannie & Freddie. I’d just finished ready Krugman’s Depression Economics so all the arguments were fresh in my mind. Furthermore, my voice was full of scorn. His wife just sat there transfixed with her jaw on her knees. I apologized to my friend, in case the other guest complained, but he was kewl with me. (He knows me well.) I was so glad I got to ream out one who was involved in the scam, but that didn’t help fix the problem.
What he’s saying is that if the Uk defaults it’ll be even worse than in iceland, since they’ll throw the entire world into a great depression.
thanks. i was using the term regulation more expansively. gotcha now i think.
Do you suppose all the US wealth is flowing towards off shore havens? And are those banks solvent?
US Treasury Biggest Bail Out Ever
I hate to sound like a broken record on this but it drives me a little crazy. Why not just nationalize the banks? All of this strikes me as going out your front door, around the house, and in the back door, just to cross the room.
The banks aren’t lending, they aren’t redoing mortgages, and they aren’t coming clean on their insolvency. All they are is a bottomless money pit hoarding money, buying each other up, and creating more and more entities that are too big to fail.
A bad bank would just allow them to dump their debt on to us and leave them completely unreformed. And yes, they would do this again. Anyone who thinks otherwise I have summer homes to sell on Pluto.
Yet instead of nationalizing the banks, the government keeps taking over their functions in exchange for giving them money and assuming their debts. Is it just me or is this crazy?
KO has scoop of first whistleblower on domestic spying. Guess what? It’s worse than you thought.
Buying you a virtual drink right now….)
Because rule #1 is that the general class of people who run the economy now must stay in charge of it. You could just buy up most of the troubled bank for the cost of outstanding shares for a ton less than everyone is spending. (Wouldn’t do it that way, but it’d make more sense than guaranteeing everything and getting lousy prefered stock in exchange).
In Iceland, they are rioting there against the conservative government and international banks. Save your old shoes. We have lots of Rothschilds and other international bankers to use as targets ourselves. Also bring drums and eggs.
Thanks. Is is the cocktail hour!
Golly gee. They’re only just figuring out now that “moderate” R is an oxymoron. R obstruction on the first day, who’d a thunk?
The shorter version is that we are recapitalizing banks and getting nothing but their dreck in return. It is like the Japanese model on acid.
I know what he may have meant, but he also suggested that what Iceland’s government did “saved it’s skin”. It didn’t. Iceland’s vaunted fishing industry is now in mothballs because it can’t buy fuel. And that metals market…ditto. They can’t buy fuel to run the industrial sector in kroner, nor can they obtain buyers for the metal in an economic recession.
While their situation is a consequence of the massive tentacles of these global debt problems…and their actions may not have had the scale of consequences (except for those who had investments in the “remarkable” Icelandic banks, who lost everything) globally…the implication that they “saved themselves” is simply false.
Evans Pritchard seems to suggest that if Britain followed the Icelandic route that this would solve the “British” problem…but that they can’t simply because they would collapse the world economy. Actually, they can’t because it would also destroy their own economy, too. It’s not British altruism involved here.
Sure, why not? Boy I wish that conversation were on video tape.
yes. Japanification has always been the plan, I see no reason to believe that will change under Obama. I’m not sure it’ll work though. Betting against Bush was always a safe bet, a lot of the same people are running Obama’s ops.
So KSM trail was suspended today. PBO is now to blame for not convicting him.
DUGG
GO back to the 1%ers and GET THE MONEY BACK!
all the golden parachutes
all the bonus’s
all the loophole dollars with which they absconded,
go to them and GET IT BACK.
that doesn’t read like a riot to me – more like a protest. unless you are referring to some of the police?
Well, no. Thinking back, I was pretty viscious. The dam broke and it all came out. And I had the personal high ground too: at one point I said something like, I worked on Wall St. for over 25 years. I know how they invent instruments and flog them with no thought for the future.
I think we can’t take any more preferred stock. The dividend rate is so high that the bank cannot make a profit on the new money. I think we have to get common stock. That way we dilute the existing shareholders but don’t necessarily wipe them out. We have voting rights, and can do some house cleaning and compensation control.
My broker says that the financial people have to be compensated, but I think they don’t have alternative employment. I imagine that if any of them are essential, we will have to pay them. The capital structure of the gigantic banks is indecipherable, and we may need some of the higher ranking people to stay around to make sure we have someone who might actually understand what the situation is and lead in some sane direction to unwind the banks.
But, this is effectively nationalization, so why not go all the way?
I’m not entirely sure that default may not turn out to be something a number of governments do. It may not “save their skin” but it may turn out to be the better alternative, especially for larger continental nations.
Was the right thing for Argentina, for example.
But it raises the issue. Which is more important, the real economy or the paper one? To date, the answer is the paper one. But to get out of our current mess we need to completely redo and get rid of most of the paper economy or it will continue to smother the real side.
President Obama has taken the Oath of Office for a second time:
http://www.google.com/hostedne…..wD95RS75G0
Pay them 200K a year, max. What are they going to do, work for McD’s? Wipe out the entire executive class, the upper middle managers can take over.
stupid questions: but even in the case that the UK were to nationalize the banks, when the foreign debt is 2x GDP what can be done that won’t throw currency markets etc into utter chaos or worse? not saying it isn’t the way to go, just that i’m not seeing what comes next or how those debts can be repaid. maybe try to inflate them away?
I mean, what’s the worse they could do? Cause a multi-trillion dollar collapse? It’s hard to imagine they could be as incompetent venal and malicious as the prior executive class. Maybe they will be, but we know this bunch of yahoos need to go.
Keith is coming up with new revelations on warrentless wiretapping.
Print money and pay them off, which causes a huge devaluation of the pound and runaway inflation, I guess. They might be better off just defaulting, honestly, depending…
In my experience, the middle managers are more competent than the ones who made it to the top.
I thought this part bears repeating…thanks ian.
Obama just listened and catered to screaming Republicans more than Bush listened to Democrats in 8 years.
actually that’s exactly what galbraith has been arguing. if the executives are used to making 10’s of millions (or more) and are not in financial distress, they won’t bother working for a couple hundred thousand (i don’t believe i just typed that). and that would be a good thing because galbraith says the financial industry should be run by the middle managers who still think their well being is tied to the long term viability of the industry and economy as a whole.
Good. But I thought the honor of a re-do should go to Capt. Steubing.
The idea is that the UK is more reliable than the banks are. The debt will have to be dealt with at some point so it might be better to have the entity that can best manage, unwind, and distribute it rather than those who created it in control.
I don’t think this whole thing came about because the WATB republicans went beserk over the Oath. At the Congressional lunch yesterday, Roberts was reported as looking distraught and was apologetic to Barack. Honestly, it seems to me this was Roberts idea to do it over again just to be safe, because on the surface, it did appear as if Roberts was being a typical Bush Neocon by ‘purposely’ screwing up the Oath to make Barack’s presidency illegal. Didn’t happen. Both were nervous.
The TimesOnline calls it a “riot”.
I expect that the International bankers and neo-cons will retaliate. Maybe another Bin Laden tape? Or perhaps Cheney has one last false flag op up his sleeve.
Capt. Stubing from The Love Boat? LOL!
Yeah, what I’ve been saying for some time: you need people who need the company to be there in 10 or 20 years, because they’ll still need a job. Even if they’ve moved on, they don’t want something from their past coming to haunt them.
I used to work in a life insurance underwriting department (not as an underwriter). The big underwriters were lifers, if not at the company, then in a small industry where everyone knows each other. They were very very careful, because they knew if some guy keeled over or couldn’t pay his premiums on a big case, they were going to be sitting down with underwriting management (all of whom were underwriters themselves and could not be snowed) and explaining what happened. And it better be a good explanation, too.
Is this the anticipation that led to our military units under NORAD to deal with domestic disturbances?
So, how is this different from getting trashed and pillaged by the Huns?
My tongue is only half into my cheek. How very convenient that, on the eve of getting out of town, the Bush-Cheney mafioso conducts one last raid on the public treasury, to make sure that their own nests are feathered to the max, and also (not incidentally) that Obama and the rest of us will have no feathering for our nests at all, and indeed we’ll owe, in one way or another, all of our feathering to the shysters of Bushland for decades?
What we need is a Commission to investigate the fleecing we are now experiencing at the hands of the prosperous elite, with suitable criminal penalties fully equal to their violation of the public trust. There is significant mendacity taking place!
Bob in HI
I don’t think the world has the social cohesion to do a worldwide reset of the financial industry. But I think that we probably could and that could both serve as a model but also help undo this financial house of cards in other countries. However the longer we dink around with this, first with Bush-Paulson-Bernanke and now Obama-Summers-Geithner the harder and less likely it will be even for us. There will be a reset. Worst case scenarion is that it is done despite us via a depression.
More on the European crisis in Greece, Latvia, Iceland….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..-recession “>Iceland Reels
And it’s interesting that they are calling for an “Obama” turnover “from the Conservatives”. How odd that Obama would turn into an image of a Mandela-like revolution?
The U.K. should annex Iceland and make it part of their country.
Or Russia, whatever. It’s probably easier for them.
Turns out idiotic conservatives exist everywhere, from the U.S. to Iceland.
I think NATO closed their base on that island, so it’s Russia then.
Good. I wondered if that would happen so that the birth certificate nonsense could not be used in this case.
the presence of riot police does not make a riot and the timesonline can’t make it so by calling it one. nothing they report indicates there is a riot and the picture with the article is not, i think, a riot by any definition.
don’t mean to harp on the point – but there are times when large gatherings of protesters have been purposefully characterized inaccurately in order to take away their legitimacy and give them a bad public image. i’m not saying that’s what’s happening now, only that i want to be careful about the potential for gov propaganda.
$200K a year. Not bad. Maybe offer them with some long-term incentives for making their corporations “sustainably” profitable and stable. Maybe allow them a raise of $50K after four years…or like those who are living on SSI, tie their salary increases to the COLA.
Poor baby’s, although they’d likely have to give up their huge mansions (or refinance since nobody else could afford them)…there’d be plenty of those foreclosed McMansions out there waiting to be filled.
It is still possible the Obama team in considering nationalization, and Geithner’s ambivalence during the hearings when pressed on this suggests they don’t want to leak out intentions until the whole package is ready. Otherwise, it just causes panic.
On tonight’s PBS News Hour, Judy Woodruff (not an economist) interviewed three economists about the banking crisis and was surprised when Harvard’s Kenneth Rogoff called for nationalization, “Really?” so she asked Karen Petrew, and Petrew agreed, so she asked Martin Baily, and he agreed (more or less). So the range of people they had also said that’s the logical answer. If that’s the emerging consensus, then it’s possible even the Admin can’t be far behind.
After all, the Bush team nationalized Fred/Fan, and who would have anticipated . . .?
Give the ladies a chance in Iceland. They cannot do any worse than the men did. Unless, they are female neo-cons.
Last November, Iceland’s President (who does not have the power to do so) said he would like to offer the former US airbase there to the Russians much to the surprise of the Russians as much as anybody else.
http://www.barentsobserver.com…..58932.html
but how do we do that – a financial reset – on our own when we are part of a globalized world? just looking at the uk now with their level of foreign debt…
I think nationalization is still possible, yes.
Yes, but it has to be a real nationalization not this dimwitted fellation of the financial industry that Paulson has been doing.
since you are reading the tea leaves – would that be before or after the “stimulus bill” passes?
True…I do agree. The protests in Iceland have been remarkably peaceful, spiced with a bit of eggs and yoghurt thrown at the Althing (the parliament) and the PM’s car. Still the protests are not simply “business as usual” for the remarkably homogenous, and usually sedate Icelandic people. People are really pissed off there.
NSA guy on Countdown. “The National Security Agency had access to all Americans communications.”
I am shocked. Does that include the neo-cons communications?
Well if you go in and do cramdowns, and evaluation of assets on your terms, you can figure out which parts of the banking system can be saved, which broken up, which merged, and which recapitalized. There are real assets in there which can have a real value, one which the government sets. So we aren’t talking about total losses here or anything like it. But what losses there are the government can spread out among homeowners, banks, investors, and where necessary taxpayers. And of course there needs to be regulation especially re-imposition of Glass-Steagall and nullification of CDSs and resolution or rewriting of CDOs. We have talked a lot about these things before but this is the quickie version.
The stimulus is one of the reasons I don’t have a lot of hope for a real bank nationalization. It is really stupidly constructed.
that sounds right to me – at least based on the little bit i’ve read. there is lots of middle ground between people staying home and a full blown riot.
I hope everyone will click through this link, a political cartoon by Signe Wilkinson that speaks perfectly for me.
I absolutely agree. I would love to hear Vikram Pandit ask me if I want fries with that.
We’ll, whatever I’m “reading” it’s weak tea at best. But what I see happening is that Obama is putting together as much discretion as possible — both the recovery bill ($800 bn plus) and the remaining bailout ($350 bn) and allowing the debate about nationalization to occur without shooting it down. So the way to look at this is about $1.2 billion or so in tools to use on rebooting the economy, plus national support to do whatever needs to be done.
What’s missing is a coherent plan (in public) on how to use all that leverage — eg. now you own the biggest banks, what do you do with them that actually gets the economy moving again? — and I can’t tell whether that’s because of the team’s normal secrecy/discipline in not leaking ’till they’re ready or, more likely, no one in D.C. has figured out how to see/solve the whole problem.
I also think Summers may be a distraction, and that it’s Volker we need to watch. Tin foil cup for weak tea.
thanks. i was especially thinking about foreign debt because, maybe mistakenly, it looked to me that some of the fed’s actions may have been meant to protect foreign investors… if anyone decided to call our debt, what would we do? a bank could go bankrupt if need be (although granted with all the CDS around maybe it would be just as bad) what would the usa do?
If the banks were nationalized would this enable an examination of all of the offshore subsidiaries and their assets etc
great comic above, but that is waaay funnier. love it. *g*
The thing about Volcker is that he is 81.
God Save the Queen (and all of her Lords, Ladies, Princes, and inbreds)! And we should add, “Let them eat Cake — mutherfuckers.”
In the economics graduate program at the University of Chicago (in 1985), Larry Sjaatad refered to this point of collapse as the scorched earth policy. He also addressed the ability to “talk down” the pending inflation as a way of reducing the pain to the common citizens. I think this is how they did it in Chile when he was a consultant to Pinoche.
90% marginal tax rates on all income over one million would be a good start.
here, here!
IIRC Iceland was declared a “TERRORIST State” by Great Britain for that act. It allows the British to confiscate all Icelandic accounts in Britain. It is the continuation of the “Cod Wars” between the two nations, the first round was won by the Icelanders that protected Iceland’s territorial waters from British encroachments (and probably the viability of the fishery is the result). A lot of modern history between these two.
“What the bad bank will do is buy up distressed assets held by financial institutions, for more than they’re worth (no point in buying them at market prices, that’s what everyone’s trying to avoid). They will keep those assets in the bad bank and sell them when they’re worth more.”
Could someone please explain this? Isn’t this what started the whole mess? Buying properties for more than they’re worth, relying on imagination to believe that they will inevitably be worth more?