Here’s a question I never thought I’d find myself asking: After unsuccessfully trying to get Andrew Sullivan to slip you some tongue, what can you possibly do for an encore? Well, if you’re Chris Hitchens, you make the case that the Bush administration tortured detainees because We, The People demanded it:
Hitchens then claimed that the Bush administration’s commitment to harsh interrogation techniques, which he considers torture, derived from a desire among Americans for a more “ruthless” government. “It has to be admitted by every American that in the majority after the 9/11 Commission, people wanted an administration that was much more ruthless than the one they’d had on September the 10th,” he said.
“I know something for a sure thing,” Hitchens continued. “The demand for torture and other methods I would describe as illegal, the demand to go outside the Geneva conventions — all this came from below. What everyone wants to say is this came from a small clique around the vice-president. It’s not educational. It doesn’t enlighten anyone to behave as if that were true. This is our society wanting and demanding harsh measures.”
I just have one little tiny question: If the Bush administration was practicing torture in response to public demand for heightened governmental savagery, then why did Dubya make a point of repeating over and over again, "We do not torture"? Why did they fight to suppress the second wave of Abu Ghraib photos and videos? I mean, if they were torturing prisoners to appease our communal bloodlust, wouldn’t they be bragging about it? Wouldn’t they be saying, "Yeah, that’s right – we’re torturing Muslims and it’s AWESOME!"?
Now you know why I don’t drink…
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some folks are realllly having trouble adjusting to the election results…
Was there ever a time when Hitchens’ brain actually functioned? Or has he just been in a perpetual alcohol induced haze since childhood?
Hitchens’ brain stopped working sometime after the brutal (but accurate) takedown of Mother Teresa and before he became obsessed with the Clintons.
Digg is open
Hitchens’ logic: good grief.
Grief… is good.
You guys didn’t bring the TC troll up with you, didja? *g*
Hitch has solidarity with Bush and Cheney, he’s been torturing his own liver for decades.
-G
I wonder when his doctor will say those immortal words, “The next drink you take will kill you.”
as a ‘democracy’ we are responsible for letting this regime get away with the litany of crimes that have been attributed to them.
it was only after the economy started tanking that the tide turned.
First …. did anyone do a blood alcohol level on Hitchens?
If they were torturing prisoners to appease our communal bloodlust, wouldn’t they be bragging about it?
Second ….. Why wasn’t this put on 24/7 Torture TV reality show where the public can vote them off the island?
I don’t know about that – it seemed a lot of people started taking a closer look when the Iraq occupation began falling apart. The economy was extra bonus points.
I thought Bush wasn’t interested in doing the popular thing./s
One can certainly make the case that as a country, we are complicit through our failure to throw the torturers out. But what Hitchens is claiming is that we didn’t just passively enable torture, we *demanded* it.
As much as I dislike Hitchens, I do think that the Republican base, at least, was calling for blood and competing with each other about who was the most bloody, and there were points around 2002-2003 when the yahoos were a clear majority.
But the Abu Graib pictures weren’t just bloody; they were, by religious right standards, sexually perverted (hell, by my standards too). That wasn’t what the frightened sheep signed up for, and therefore they had to be hidden. Had they merely been beaten, the spin doctors would have owned it, cheered about it, and accused opponents of being woosies.
I have to say it but Hitchens may have a point. Americans hate anything with the word “torture” in it. The word is un-American. But so many Americans do on behaviors that ARE torture. These “Americans” glory in the behaviors on shows like “24″ and wish it could happen that way in real life. They embrace the gut-wrenching violence and state terror, and romanticize its practitioners.
For me, this may be the single biggest indictment of shrub: he did not stand up to the lynch mob, as an real leader who have. Instead, he joined it. He strove to become its leader. Thank goodness even the other lynchers thought he was incompetent in that role.
One should point out, that shrub was precisely what Alexander Hamilton warned against in the Federalist people.. demagoguery – giving way to ambitious individuals who seize power in the name of populist mandates.
That last sentence is messed up a bit; “they” refers to the prisoners, of course.
I meant to say “Federalist papers” not people in #15
Yeah, we made him do it. That’s the ticket.
Of course Hitchens is half right. Republicans love torture. If only the love could be returned to them.
Hitchins is a big chicken. He and many others in America did fall for the big fear card following 9/11…do whatever is necessary to stop “them”..problem is the “them” were the very people scaring them to death that they thought they agreed with.
Boneheads.
The sky is falling….
The sky didn’t fall. A catastrophe occurred causing a huge loss of life unseen in this country, but routinely encountered in other countries..
No one would truly investigate it, because it was soon deemed a “taboo” to mention any questioning of what happened. A contrived commission was established that whitewashed facts that were countered by many experts.
Even on blogs..the mere mention of 9/11 was labeled troll and conspiracy theorist.
I say…if you believe what Bushco told you is what actually happened, you are dreaming. There is tons of refudiation of their facts available to investigate.
Hitchens is just one more victim of PTSD as a result of the events of that day and bought hook, line, and sinker the “story” that was allowed to be told; as well as knee-jerkinly supporing the justifications by the powers that be or the powers that “were” for torture, domestic spying, and an attempted eradication of our rights by that horrible nightmare known as the Bush Administration.
Good riddance.
Chris has any polls to back this statement up or is he pulling
out of his ass?
An excellent point
After 9/11, Bush had popular approval to lead the country in a response.
He and Cheney used that time to arrogate power to the White House cabal, punish and intimidate internal dissenters (Plame was an example that dissent would be dealt with severely and quickly), and — as you so correctly point out — lead the mob, and not the country.
In short, a small man, confronted with a great crisis.
Has anyone looked at how our society has been militarized? Starting after Vietnam…. TV shows, movies, violence in movies with Stephen Segal and Claude Van Dam with them ripping body parts off. It moves into video games that are targeted marketed to youth who will become our future soldiers. Our police have gone from community policing to the beat cop looking like SWAT, they have more fire power than some National Guard units. My county sheriff has two tanks.
So for decades the American people have seen people torture in entertainment and no one has objected. Our society has become conditioned to think it is Ok…..why not… Jack Baur does it….
Judging by what films are popular, Americans (and a lot of others as well) like getting righteously angry at some evil enemy, and then vicariously taking revenge on the evildoer in the most extreme way, inflicting maximum physical pain. All the filmmaker has to do is arrange things so that the hero seems justified in what he (or she) does, and the public cheers them on.
Liberals fall for this too: lots of good progressives and feminists cheered when Thelma and Louise humiliated and then killed that rapist. Hell, he deserved it! Righteous revenge is sweet! And wasn’t it cool when Jennifer Lopez learned to fight so she could beat up her asshole ex?
Of course, Thelma and Louise paid the price (and more) for taking revenge, something that rarely happens in film to male heroes.
Call it whatever, it’s the cruelty behind any of our policies that I find objectionable and indefensible.
That is one of the most ridiculous claims I have ever heard. Mob rule is savagery, brutal and nearly always wrong. It is what true leadership is all about in a civilized republic; calm navigation in stormy waters. It is also what has been so lacking these past eight years.
Every so often people need to be reminded of what it means to be civilized–what sets the civilized apart from the Barbarians.
Part of the wages of war were the right to sack and pillage for three days conquered villages and townships. These were considered normal perks for warriors.
This seems repugnant and unacceptable in the civilized world of today, tho’ genocide still exists. Many people I know, frustrated with the ingratitude of the Iraqi people thought we should nuke ‘em.
The reason a terrorist straps on a bomb and gets on a crowded bus is because he does not have an F-16. Killing innocent people is never right, no matter how pissed off one is. I am so tired of these people.
Because Bush thinks that if he repeats something again and again then he can catapult the propaganda/or taint the jury pool for a warcrimes trial.
I think Bush overestimates the value of advertising. I wonder how much he pays Chris. Is Chris breaking down under the strain of being a paid hack?
He has been drunk publicly on news interviews but going after Andrew I think the strain of being a Bushy is outing him?
Killing
innocentpeople is never right.Well, you know life and all living things …
How are you and the tigers today, SD.
Was thinking about those of you not in the snow-favored latitutdes during several of my numerous communes with nature, the last couple of days …
It was selise’s reasonable conviction that all souls may be reached and passionate, thoughtful and deft limning of said conviction, which contributed to the late “TC Experiment”, SD. Since there is always the ‘possibility’ and never knowing which particular wee stingie thingie might be at the edge of ‘epiphany’ … well you know how that ‘possibility’ busyness works, I am certain.
So, on balance, we get a couple of cranked up ‘visitors’ here at the the lake and find Hitchens all aflutter on the Tee Vee, the first, as all wisdom suggests, we may now, reasonably, ignore, and the second will embolden ‘them what must be emboldened’ though the rest of us may, again reasonably, turn off the ‘vast wasteland’ and, on the other foot, ‘change’ is a comin …
Yes but I think men grow out of it mostly after their 20’s. The action flick movie is dead though isn’t it? World Wrestling seems the new avenue for violence and same sex impulses.
Not to get into a death penalty debate with you, but sometimes I think people have lost the right to breathe.
Sully should have *ehem* forked over some tongue.. just to shut Hitchens up.
I mean, since Sully was willing to grace Hitchens with his presence and all.
what Hitchens doesn’t seem to understand is that leadership and mob psychosis isn’t the same thing. Just because the lowest common denominator in the mob demands blood and gore, doesn’t mean that the president should orchestrate gladiotorial combat extravaganzas in the arena. shrub conflated mob rule with leadership and populist demagoguery for enlightened policy. This pretty much makes him the contemporary equivalent of the worst Roman emperors – a Caligula or a Nero.
I can understand that point of view.
My experience has been that very few of the people I talk to approve of torture but they think we have the right to do whatever needs be done to protect citizens. Some think it is ok to do anything to foreigners sic. I am afraid that the white hat of American purity doesn’t fit any more. It’s the home of the brave for christ’s sake get out of the fetal position already. I think Bush or somebody said if we alter our country because of 9/11 the terrorists win. Guess what
It isn’t on type, it is the acceptance of violence across our society. Growing up in the “Leave it to Beaver” era …… I saw very little violence, maybe a cowboy movie who shot the Indians.
How many murders are on TV everyday?
How many movies have someone tortured?
Has anyone tried to stop our local police from becoming so militarized?
What are our teenagers experiencing in the war game videos?
A big fat stinkin’ FU to Chris Hitchens for even attempting to speak in my name. I don’t know anyone who demanded a “ruthless government”.
I don’t know where I saw it, but that fascist dildo in Arizona, Sherrif Joe has his goon squads out doing patrols and sweeps with those creepy black masks that we often equate with death squads and terrorists.
Creepy as all get out.
-G
The issue is that way too many people (including congresscritters) believe in the ticking time bomb scenario……. Ya not going to get jack shit from torture except false info and you still have that boom…..
That would be good if we could get Rachel or KO to cover it with pictures.
That is what I am talking about…… first you have the School of the Americas doing their best to take over South American with their death squads…… then it gets into movies and NOW I get to see Sheriff Joe play death squad leader…… Welcome to America….
The bar has been set. Prosecutors are required to prosecute cases that can be won. All actions of torture were approved by Bush according to Bush. In the absence of a conviction, no torture occurred.
If a tree falls in the forest…
But by God, it’s *doing* something! And teaching them terrists a lesson, too!
There was no demand for this tv created the demand. Silence of the lambs is art. Most of the rest is crap.
I wonder if the the consolidation of the MSM is directly linked to the rise in violence on tv?
Are big corporations trying to make us more violent as a culture?
Lou Dobbs is probably braggin on them as we speak.
17 hrs & 59 min
They too can be on Sheriff Joe’s Faux reality show…….
btw it appears that the sheriff did not go through with the deal because the show would be videoed in the county jail, cars, tanks, and other facilities any money paid would have to go to the county AND sheriff Joe did not want to share…….. hahahaha
Ah, the drink-soaked popinjay pontifericates yet anon. Silly Hitch, the common voices in his head told him these torture tales, right before they started clamoring for another single malt.
;>)
Maybe thats why Chris is protorture.
And getting excited
How about the industrial defense industry? Was it their idea to make the American public amendable to HIGH defense spending and pro-war so that they can keep business going?
Citizen dakine01:
Resembles fetal alcohol syndrome a bit don’t it…but I remember him from his earlier days in the Nation Magazine and I actually thought his erudition was intelligible…but I think he’s been a closet krypto-Nazi for a long time…as a Brit, he always knew where a popular writer or journalist got his bread buttered.
Diary!
Sure they are in on it to.
Chirs can only think with the one side of his brain. The rightwing side.
24 seems to be an attempt to make torture legit by the MSM.
hey everyone, been oen a cruise with childhood friends for a few days and haven’t had a chance to go on the tubes, hope all is well and wondering if I missed much?
eli!
great post I must say
actually they’re trying to pull the strings of voters, they think democrats are the same marionettes as their republican constituence and they think the more they say something the more true it becomes, they are in the business of creating their own reality and it works better then we want it to work
we have to disabuse them from their techniques by shoving what they say right back in their face…just as eli does right on this very thread
Honey I’m still having a lot of problems with word find and loosing ideas….. I have a comment then started a coughing fit …… poof the idea is gone….. somewhere there is a big bank of really great comments in comment heaven…… I’ll stay in the comments for now….. also can’t spell worth shit….
by the way, did I miss anything that will make my heart soar or the reverse, my blood boil?
Sorry you are feeling bad.
I get tickled at the “Ticking time bomb beneath Gotham…captured bomb planter interrogated,” as the fringiest of lunacy arguments for torture. Do we really need to give carte blanche for interrogators based on this virtually impossible scenario?
If such a thing were to actually take place, and torture led to the disarming of the bomb wouldn’t the torturer, if prosecuted, demand a jury trial?
The confession of the torturee could not be used against him, but one would think other evidence would exist.
I thought you knew that my cancer has gone to my lungs and since 11/17 I’ve had some pretty ruff treatment……. in ICU for 8 days in December…… that one pretty much killed me…… I’m on chemo now and getting back to semi-normal but still have a few issues……
Nope no word on a Scooter pardon yet stay up late tonight or wake up early tomorrow. That should be the worse news to hit.
I hope you get better take care of yourself we need you here!
Good to see you, DB. Drifty sends his best.
Even if one were to grant the “ticking bomb” scenario as a legitimate use of torture (which I don’t), why is it that that’s not the only scenario it’s being used for?
Is the argument that because torture is okay for one very limited and unlikely case, then it’s okay for all others, so waterboard away?
Sorry to hear that, katymine, I did not know.
I agree…… a person builds and plants a “ticking” bomb, usually they book out of town and leave no evidence of who they might be……. How long did it take to catch the Atlanta Olympic bomber?
They just don’t wear a T-shirt that says …. “I’m a bomber”
TC troll?
It appears that Israel has been using weapons of torture on civilians in Gaza. http://english.aljazeera.net/n…..28885.html
17 hrs & 43 min
that’s exactly the tactic eli
however as I said in my diary a few days ago, if you had to drive your car to get somewhere and prevent a catastrophe, there is no gas but there is nitro-glycerine, do you use the nitro instead of the gas?
of course not, you create two events instead of the one AND you make it IMPOSSIBLE to prevent the first one as well
I’m actually sympathetic to Hitchens’ argument here. A lot of Americans went crazy during those years. And though not yet an American, Hitchens was at least partly afflicted. (Little Genocidal Fuckwits was a dull personal blog on September 10, 2001.) It takes more than top-down decisions to mainstream the acceptability of torture in civic/political discourse. A whole lot of Americans liked the idea of kicking the shit out of some brown people somewhere. Good leaders calm that limbic lashing-out; BushCo channeled it.
Only a few hours left to blame Bush, moonbats!
Yes. Do not let the camel put his head in the tent. How does one believe coercive techniques (torture) work on one who seeks martyrdom? Seems like they have had enough time to at least file charges.
I’m pretty much recovered from the Interlukin therapy except the word find and loosing thoughts…… the chemo I am taking is a capsule, last week was my 1/2 dose and today I started the full dose.
This drug is targeted for my type of cancer and stops the cells from dividing AND kills the blood supply to the mets…… I think this is the treatment. Australia and Canada have had great results and in the clinical trials the drug worked so good they put the placebo group on it……
wow, it will really be a surprise if scooter gets no pardon
on the other hand with a pardon scooter is obligated to testify because he can no longer incriminate himself
I might take the bet that cheney insists scooter NOT get that pardon
Unlike Clinton, Bush isn’t so classless as to give politically influenced pardons. Deal with it.
So who will be on the pardon list?
I’ll be blaming bush for quite some time to come, the damage this maggot has caused will last generations, our children and their children will pay, that price will be payed for time unknown and the cost will go untold
unless we tell it
There is all of the time we have left on this planet to blame that FU.
17 hrs & 39 min
It is my distinct impression that Cheney thinks that the executive powers give him (when convenient) and W to torture anyone at any time to get whatever information he considers desirable. He has had no respect for life. Period. He doesn’t care about Americans either…most obviously the lack of concern following Katrina. Worst of all..he thinks he’s made of teflon, and doesn’t believe nor care what anyone else thinks…nor does he fear retribution or justice…probably rightfully so.
Good riddance.
But don’t worry, Dear Leader Obama will fix everything! When he speaks the sun will shine, the birds will sing, and world peace will break out! Right?
I will blame him rightfully forever. flybot.
S
C
R
O
L
L
Who let the troll in?
You can’t even let the man depart the Presidency without spewing your venemous hatred for Bush.
Nope just wait until the trials start. Moonbats! We were right about the war! Right about Ossama being in Pakistan not Iraq! (notice Bush pays the Pakistanis billions in
aidtribute) I’m sure thats why we have not been attacked again by Ossama.Pakistan’s intel service helped create the Taliban which led to al Quieda.
Funny how Pakistan a Nuclear power can’t get Ossama in their own borders huh.
Then their is the stockmarket.
Go on what has Bush accomplished that can be called good?
That is exactly what Bush has given us. Sunshine, flowers, and flybots.
Trials? ROFL! Yeah right.
PW is upstairs with a fresh thread The Case of the Kidnapped Drum Major
P.S. Obama isn’t going to close Club Gitmo, either.
I’d rather be a moonbot than a weak, clueless, mindless follower of a loser.
[Mod Note: Please refrain from personal attacks and name calling.]
And I’d rather vote for the man who kept us safe after 9/11 over a clueless empty and over-rated suit like Obama any day.
You’ll find out soon enough Obama will be nothing more than a second Carter term.
Iran Contra? Ollie North sells weapons to Iran and Iran terror group Hezbollah
Blows up 241 American servicemen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1…..ks_bombing
I guess Iran found out we were selling weapons to Iraq too, payback sucks and our troops paid for that bit of uninvestigated stupidity.
Wasn’t selling weapons to Terror states a crime back then?
I just want to make sure that you stay stuck in your little hole where you cannot see reality…….
So please DO NO take any tax cuts…
Refuse universal healthcare
Do not apply for any of the high paying green jobs
Never ride on any of the high speed trains
Stay off any roads or bridges build or repaired by stimulus
Never get alternative energy items, no hybrid car, solar panels or take energy from wind farms
Please stay at your coastal property which will be under water soon
Enjoy yourself with the rest of the 22% ……
Good point but will Scooter do time for Darth?
the hatred comes from the damage this man did to my country, her constitution and the reputation of this once respected country
the man has earned this vile hatred tou speak about from every patriot I know, however there are those that think all these things he’s done to us are actually good things, just as there are those who think water is dry
I see you are among those people, good luck to you
and that says it all, you actually think this man has a shred of class…bizzare there are people like yourself but there you are
g’night all
Yeah or take a medical cure derived from stem cell research, or the theory of evolution!
Amen….. my father a decorated Marine who survived the battle of Tarawa during WWII has been counting the seconds when that “war criminal” leaves office (quote from my father) and proudly voted for Obama……
I’m afraid I may be force to trade in my carbon credits for a 2014 Chevy Pelosi while I freeze in the winter as the government forces me to turn down my thermostat. Meanwhile, Putin has taken over the Baltic states and China has annexed Taiwan.
That will be America, 2014.
[Edited by Mod. No need for name-calling]
Why are we feeding this troll?
Where is a freepatriot putdown when I need one?
Should we just ignore TraditionalConservative? He doesn’t want to engage us – he’s just trying to get a reaction. And wasting our time.
OH, and A-Mad will have 100s of nukes aimed at Tel Aviv, that is if he doesn’t just nuke them right away when he gets one.
Thats why we are pushing Obama Left! Compromise with the loser ideas the right has produced is what got us into this mess.
FDR won WW2 and saved the economy in less time than Bush destroyed it!
Obama needs to do everything FDR did! As an investor in the market I need him to do that.
But not as much as the Banks do.
I think we should invite him to the next thread, Twain.
We seem to be growin’ on him.
;~D
Do everything FDR did? You mean prolong the depression?
Thanks to Bush China has to keep buying our debt. Thanks to Bush we can’t cross them on Taiwan.
Hoover created the Depression then the Market got better I’ll trade FDR and Bill Clinton stock market for Hoover, Bush or Reagan’s anyday.
See everybody on the next thread, looks to be a good one.
DW
Why were Al CIAda prisoners isolated and tortured in Cuba?
They were tortured to keep them from revealing what they know. That is, they are working for various secret services, Saudi, ISI, CIA and Homeland Stasi. This is the real secret of the terrorists.
Don’t worry now that Obama will run trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see they will buy even more debt. Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are going to bankrupt this nation in the name of “stimulus”.
The corporate wing of the GOP will support us next election as the economy gets better. Just how will the less than 30%ers win elections without a funding advantage?
Come 2011 Obama will have approval numbers even lower than Bush. And then, I can call you the “20%ers”.
People will have full blown Bush nostalgia by 2012.
No, Mr. Traditional ToltalInformation Awareness. I will be blaming Chimpy until I see him in Hell.
I love the smell of [Edited by Mod. No need for name-calling]. The Great
Neo-Conservative PNAC War To
Dominate the World has not gone well. You [Edited by Mod.] cannot even control the blogosphere.
ever seen hitchins rail about kissenger and Vietnam ???
now he loves himself some torture ???
shouldn’t let your sexual perversions out in public hitch
we know you have a moral compas, so why are you ignoring it ???
jes keep tellin yerself that
the world isn’t right, you are
and no matter how badly you fuck up, everybody else is MUCH worse than you
that’s why you gotta live on cheetoos in your parents’ basement
ROTFLMAO
Hitchens does a Bobo Brooks. He invents a fictional American majority, then claims to speak for it. A mild-mannered, foul-mouthed Beltway inhabitant, with pretensions to being a journalist, Hitchens found himself exhausted, gagging and willing to say anything after a few seconds of waterboarding. Yet he still concludes that Americans want their leaders to torture in order to “keep them safe”. Phooey.
Americans want to be kept safe, but they want it done by methods its leaders are willing to publicly acknowledge, which comply with both the letter and spirit of pre-Bush American and international laws. They want a finer balance struck, one that acknowledges America’s aspirations as well as its fears, not one built from the dark sides of Darth Cheney. One built on substance, not imagery, designed to meet the next threats, not the past ones that can be hyped as a means to curtail liberties and outsource wealth and power to hand-picked members of the private sector.
Mr. Hitchens, at times you make Bobo Brooks seem well-informed and rational, when he’s really a mediocre propagandist whose penny loafers impress few besides Jim Lehrer and the New York Times.
Mr. TraditionalWingnut, you are as dumb as Doug Feith. So I understand why you would be at a website where you might actually learn something.
But, what websites will you have left, when Homeland Stasi and Marvin Bush stop paying for your favorites?
On his website today..the one he told me isn’t his..he wrote that he is invigorated today. We appear to be sort of a fun time for him. So, we can ignore him, or continue to provide him with entertainment. He is most definitely a Dem/Obama despiser..no chance of him seeing the light..ever.
This post would look less ridiculous, impotent and plainly wrong had the internet not made everyone aware of public opinion poll results for the past 8 years.
Did you happen to forget that they actually did ask Americans whether they supported this over quite a long period of time ?
This is not a lie. This is not something I have invented out of thin air because I want to make Americans feel disgusted by their own country. This is the type of actual poll response you can find if you go looking….
That would be 10 people you know asked this question and only 6 of them rejecting it. The date Dec-2007 is the one you are familiar with. Not last Christmas, the one before that. Long time after 9/11, after Iraq, after Katrina, after pretty much all of the Bush admin, after the Dems took back the house.
Note that this is public opinion about general US citizens being placed into concentration camps, not whether actual terrorist suspects get abused.
Can you even bring yourself to write the words “I think Hitchens is wrong” ?
Since it’s inconceivable you’re not aware of these polls, I guess we’re left to assume you’re employing that old favourite “if we pretend hard enough, we can make it not true”.
Hey, it worked for “this country doesn’t torture” and “this wiretapping/torture/rendition is unprecedented”, when in reality, none of you were alive when this stuff was new. The old memory hole.