Family values!

good grief, what century am I in?

Put different heads on those delighted kids and parent, and – voila! – Bristol, Todd, Levi….

A bit more money involved, though.

wtf?
marriage is a contract between the state and two people.
where does the word sanctity come in?
isn’t that part of religion?
wtf?

I’m only shocked that they didn’t require sterilization, too. But, that would mean these kids could futz around with impunity.
Nevermind.

I can just imagine the premarital counseling session with this couple. “We didn’t want to get married like this, but the State of MI is forcing us into it.”

Yeah, that’s what every pastor wants to hear when two kids come into the office and say “We want you to preside at our wedding.”

would it be wrong of me to ask if rebecca witt is allowed a say in this?

Let me go ahead and make a prediction:

The level/incidence of domestic abuse is going to sky rocket.

I wonder if the unintended consequence of this will be an increase in the number of do-it-yourself births, because the kids can’t afford the hospital and don’t want to get forced into a marriage.

It has never been about protecting marriage, but about punishing people for having sex that they do not like.

According to the Friend of the Court, I believe the answer is “yes.”

Do the single fathers who choose to pay instead of getting married receive equal parental rights or are they just screwed all around?

my first thought was to check and see if it was georgia – nope, just a satellite

I am thinking that this is actually a step backward from the old school solution of forcing the boy to enlist in the service.

I’m betting they liked the sex just fine.

Doesn’t sound all that “sanctified”.

So marriage now has a price a monetary value? By commercializing Marriage the Mormons just lost the sanctity argument. Instead its a transaction governed by and regulated by the government.

“Losing just $10 hurts us,” said Johnson, who makes $8 an hour at a Grand Blanc-area nursery. “We don’t have a car, we don’t even have an oven.”

i wonder if she is receiving aid (foot stamps, medical) that she and the child will lose if she marries

Realized that wasn’t entirely clear right after I hit submit. that should be sex that the people passing the laws do not like (not the couple who, from the view of our modern Puritans, like sex entirely too much). Sort of like Prop h8.

fork – food stamps

When my daughter was born, in Queen Charlotte’s hospital in London, it cast me $0. Kudos to the British National Health Service. And the socialists (1946 Labor Government) who established the NHS.

When my son was born on Kaiser Permanante’s hospital in Oakland, it cost me $1.00. Thanks Kaiser, that was good. Better hospitals than the NHS.

What happend in 24 years?

Or Abortions, or murders if the Mom won’t agree to an abortion. They never thought of the obvious consequences of this law at all.

“By the power vested in me by the state of Michigan . . . ” doesn’t exactly lend itself to thought of sanctification, either (unless you are a Wolverine, but let’s just not go there).

This is going to help what situation how?

I was taking advantage of the opening for comic means. You so seldom leave a dangler for us.

Always was and always will be. Marriage, in all times and all societies, is primarily a civil arrangement involving the assignment of legal rights and obligations. “Sanctification” is purely secondary and absent in a majority of cultures (though many do seek a religious blessing on the union – much as they do for opening a new business). Even in Christianity, marriage only became a sacrament in the late Middle Ages, more than 1000 years after the founding of the faith. In Islam it remains entirely a civil contract.

Tell me why I shoudl gay?

Gay Marriage is about one thing and one thing only : Destroying Religion by depriving it of its power to regulate sexuality and love.

Woman: “I don’t want to get married to him.” (stomp, stomp)

Her best friend: “I’ll support you all the way, and to hell with anyone who says otherwise.” (stomp, stomp, stomp)

Now *that* is foot stomp aid.

Just shocked…… this is where my Dad grew up and my Grandmother lived until she died that crusty liberal Rosie the Riveter…… The wackadoodles must of moved in since I was there last…….

Are not men Boyfriends Husbands etc already one of the leading causes of death for pregnant women?

I’m a little irritated by people with $8 an hour jobs (or anyone else) having unprotected sex. Can’t see how forcing them to get married remedies much, though.

Probably. There is an extensive body of research on the effects of welfare regulations (we ain’t giving no kind of welfare to no able bodied men folks no how!) on declining marriage rates and increasing single parents among the poor. Another fine mess the conservatives gave us.

You could say the same about pre-marital sex. Nothing worse than empowered women having lots of sex and enjoying it

Just a reminder that no method of birth control is 100% effective.

fork, i was not prepared for the forking spew peterr

But was it unprotected. Umm I was a birth control baby.

“Hey, you wanna go in those bushes and do it?”
“Lemme see your pay stub first.”

let’s face it, only abstinence is 100% and that’s no fun

707!!!

Yes, but given the emphasis on abstinence only sex ed for the past 30 years, most of the folks that need it the most are frankly pig ignorant about contraception.

And has a miserable track record to boot. It is after all the most unnatural sex act.

How very true. People are going to have sex. It may be upsetting and painful for some folks, but they need to come to terms with it…people like to have sex

True but in the case of condoms, I suspect the majority of failures result from improper use. Using the same one more than once, insufficient lubrication leading to breakage, etc.. Not that I have any experience in such matters personally, being an paragon of virtue and all. “g”

Teenage girl is pregnant…… what are her options in MI

-Forced STATE marriage …… wonder if the ACLU should know about this?
-She gets married and miscarries…… Oops….
-She denies who the father is ……. no child support…..or they send her to GITMO to get the information….
-They get married, don’t finish high school, both work minimum wage jobs and the child is in daycare from birth – 12 or when ever they think it can be a latchkey kid….
-Give up the baby for adoption (bless her)

Trying to keep people from having sex while preventing condom distribution and sex education is about as effective as barring people from smoking dope by outlawing those pot-leaf belt buckles we used to wear.

don’t forget poor product as another reason for breakage. Regardless, an attempt was made at protected sex..hence the need for the wide availability of the day after pill– hell sex education in general

I think it is really misleading to talk about the “success rates” of various methods without factoring in the ease and reliability of actual use. If people are less likely to use a method, that should count against its effectiveness rate. On that basis, abstinence has a horrendous failure rate.

ugly all the way around, isn’t it?

LOL very true but you have to admit, not having sex is a guaranteed way not to get pregnant

Comprehensive sex education, including detailed and accurate information on all available contraceptive methods, is vital if we are really serious about reducing teen pregnancies.

Come on Pups your slipping.. come on and DIGG this Post!

True, but with so few people able to do it “right”, it does not seem all that effective. As I recall from my reading, the profligate priest is rather a stock figure in Brazilian literature, is it not?

Oh, there couldn’t possibly be any unintended negative consequences of such a Fu’d policy. /s

forgot another option….

They get married and the father joins the military for the steady paycheck and free health care but at risk for 15 tours in Iraq……

Agreed! This needs to be the case worldwide but of course the Catholic Church will have a wee issue with that.

Not having sex is not an option.

Reminds me of a story I heard on the radio several years ago. A group distributing condoms wanted to include some printed material, which they accomplished by stapling a pamphlet to the wrappers, puncturing the contents in the process. Oh well, they had excellent intentions.

Oh yes, if not the priest than some other representative of the church.

Watertiger has some lovely condoms on display ….

Giving up baby for adoption is the beginning of yet another tragedy for both mother & child. No blessing there.

joy…

Do ya still have it Newt??

Just enjoying the celebration at the Lincoln Memorial… U2 up now… this has been inspiring and great.. I again have hope for my Grand Kids… Which I had lost during the Bush years!

hmmm someone didn’t think that one quite through.

I have to disagree….. I have two of those blessed babies…… they are grown and have been the light of my life……

The reverse in my case, although I wear the mantle of pariahdom comfortably.

You would say that for all adoptions?

kinda like that boosh speech last week – i had good intentions and made hard decisions

My favorite condom story is when my then current steady went into the drugstore. Upon returning to the car, remarked: Aeneas was not the last of the Trojans. That was many years ago, so not sure the brand still exists.

I watched it earlier and loved it…….

You were who I was thinking of when I wrote my comment. I wish more people would adopt..especially the kids here in the U.S. Did you know that people are coming from Europe to adopt american kids? how sad is that?

Yes, and bless you. But many do not turn out so well. Especially since open adoptions have opened up cans of worms that didn’t exist when all that was legally suppressed.

I handed it over along with my hobnail boots when I joined the ACLU.

heh! Is he still speechifying? The real question is who is still listening to his speechifying?

No, of course not. See my 72. I posted too quickly, and did not consider those that turn out well. Am used to reading about the ones that don’t, and those are the ones that make the news.

Oh, yes. Still see them in the store occasionally (like ratfood I have no reason to look for them).

well we ARE a third world country now…….. a country that cannot take care of their own children and need to adopt them to foreigners just to clear their inventory…..

NOT ME or my Sweetie.. we have a major dislike for that poor excuse of a person never mind the President! Words just don’t justice for the way we feel about GWB!

And Americans are going to Korea to do so. There seems to be an epidemic of Koreans adopted by white Montanans.

I got you. I would attribute some of the problems to the way that they are done and not so much the institution of adoption itself.

so the question is…why aren’t americans adopting american kids? I have my own suspicions.

Nice to know they still exist. Part of the eternal popular culture that holds society together. *g*

Race?

In my more amorous youth, I purchased some novelty glow-in-the-dark condoms. To work, they have to be charged up. Here’s a tip, hold them next to a light bulb BEFORE putting them on.

good for you. Save your brain cells. Anytime I heard his voice, I could feel my brain cells dying

roflmao

Might have something to do with the degree of pigmentation in those readily availble, as well as medical and other problems in many available children. From what little I have seen and read, infant adoptions mostly seem to work out pretty well. With older children it can be much more problematic, though many of those succeed as well.

one of my suspicions, yes, but there are others.

ROTFLMAO! I think that qualifies as my new favorite condom story.

I tried two private infant adoptions using a lawyer….. each time the mother decided to keep the baby the day before we were to pick up “our” baby…… That is when we decided on foreign adoption……. somebody has to come clear from Korea to take my kids way…….

For years I belonged to the Portland Oregon adoption support group. There were good ones and bad ones. The US kid adoptions were at a time that the state was trying to place the kids and failed to tell the adoptive parents facts that might have affected the child placement and/or preventing an event that effected the whole family.

To me having a kid either biological or adopted is a crap shoot…… My own bio kid had ADD, ADHD and osteogensis inperfectia (brittle bone disease) …… between 12 -17 he had three fx arms, 2 fx legs, all fingers, toes and his nose….

There had been (still is) a lot of resistance to cross racial adoption, which I find utterly silly. Don’t even talk about gay couple trying to adopt (rolls eyes).

That is unfortunate but I’m glad you have your kids and that they have you. You are a fierce momma bear *g*

O/T but those boots that Mary J Blige wore on the HBO Pre-Inauguration concert were awesome (too bad some animal died for them)

One of the few lessons in life I learned the first time.

Time to turn in, wishing a splendid evening and inauguration week to all.

In my foster parent days the states were that after one year in foster care 100% of kids were abused. They either came that way OR were abused in the system. There are issues and restrictions…… the Black Social workers have been trying to prevent white families from adopting black kids regardless who long they are in the system. Native American tribes do not allow Native American kids adopted by anyone but a Native American.

From what I understand, that is one of the big problems. The other is that too many of the available children are too old (more than toddlers) or have special needs. Apparently white babies fly out the door and Hispanic and Asian babies also find homes pretty quickly.

Night.

exactly. we have some friends (gay) going through hoops to adopt this little girl (under 2 yrs). They say they want more people to adopt but they make it so difficult

boa noite ratfood

g’nite ratfood

That is actually federal law dating to 1978 and addresses long standing abuses whereby Native children were often arbitrarily removed from their families and given to white families. It is a good law, though there are problems.

They have a hard time placing bi-racial children as well.

Yeah, that fine old American “one-drop rule” that I teach my students about.

During our social worker evaluation it was funny to have these couples ask for a baby like they were at the Sears Catalog store ….. “we want a girl from 18-24 months”

I asked for a boy and a girl between the ages of 4-7…… my son was 7 when I started the process. The kids were 4 & 8…. boy and girl ….. just thought I would get an older boy as they are harder to place…..

My dear departed friend whose memorial service I attended on Friday, adopted two Canadian Indian children, at ages of approximately 5 or 6. (They weren’t brother and sister but had been together in foster care for several years, so came as a pair. They were about 6 months apart in age.) My friend and his ex-late wife were not cut out to be parents, though they greatly desired to have children, but she was unable to conceive. The children both had serious problems. The girl was fetal alcohol syndrome; don’t know what the boy’s diagnosis would be. Coupling the kids’ problems with my friends’ shortcomings, the result was a tragedy of epic proportions.

The girl died in terrible circumstances, but had given birth to an OW son before. The son returned to his tribe in western Canada, on welfare.

The son who is now 41 showed up at the memorial service, as did the son of the adopted daughter. The son, who I last saw at about age 17, remembered me and my then small son from weekends at his father’s ski house. He’s no longer handsome, as he was when I last saw him; is missing his upper center teeth, for example, and looks gaunt and worn. But at least he showed up. The son of the adopted daughter also was there. I introduced myself and he seemed personable and is good looking. I hope his future works out. Both were well provided for in my friend’s will. I also hope that serves for the good, rather than allowing them to evade life’s responsibilities. I am not optimistic however.

I wonder if the black race (those descending from slaves in the u.s.) in America would even exist if not for that rule. given the massive rape and um race mixing that occured. What’s your take on that?

How long did the whole process take?

Sympathize. My biological son, also ADHD, but that was overcome thru great efforts, is now a wingnut who is barely self-supporting at age 27.

I thought my parents were incredibly naive when, discerning that they were not satisfied with their 3 childrens’ results (all of whom would be regarded as solid citizens by everyone here), I asked: What did you think would happen. My mom responded: I thought if we did everything right, then everything would turn out. As fate would have it, I was just as naive as them. I thought that if I did the “right” thing (lord knows I tried), things would turn out much better. Heh. My parents’ kids turned out much better than my kid.

Crap shoot indeed.

The rule exists to maintain the black population and to permanently exclude them from full benefits in American society. Even though it is not legally in force any more, it still has a powerful impact on our social interactions.

Federal law also defines “Indianess,” but here the intent is to legally define them out of existence. By federal law, you have to be of 1/4 documented Indian ancestry or a registered member of a federally recognized Indian tribe (which also requires documented tribal descent though the rules vary by tribe) to be (or claim to be) Indian. They even issue a federal document, the Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood (CDIB for short), to validate it. One scholar has referred to this Blood Quantum policy (as it is known) as mathematical genocide. Given that over 60% of Indians marry non-Indians, he is ultimately correct unless more tribes loosen their blood quantum requirements for membership.

The Korean Adoption — completed the paper work Nov 1985 and the kids came from Korea Sept 26th 1986…… The delay was due to two issues….. the Olympics were spotlighting the adoption issue and new law that stated that relinquished kids cannot be placed for 6 months just in case a parent shows up to claim them. I met my kids via mug shots and medical files in June 1986…..

Failed state adoption — two years and 3 social workers and gave up because I could NOT force the system to work to finalize things.

wow.

Race and racism pervade our country and as much as many of us want to, we cannot escape it. Researching and teaching this topic generally is not terribly uplifting and cheery.

I’m glad that it worked out for you int he end. I don’t see how keeping the process so complicated and longer than necessary is going to be conducive to more adoptions.
BTW, I don’t know if you saw a few threads back, I wished you all the best for your treatment. The family and I are sending you lots of hugs, love, peace and light

My son was probably 4-5 and I worked with an other nurse who was dealing with her 14 year old teenager…… I was shocked how low her “standards” for her son …..
1. walking and talking with all his brain cells
2. graduate HS
3. stay out of jail or any legal issues…

When I had a 17, 15 & 13 yr old to raise by myself…… yep that looked pretty good….. Have met #1, 2 & 3 on all three AND one graduated college and one 2 semesters away ….

and yet, here I am researching and wanting to teach on identity construction and the development of discourses (european) on foreign cultures. Well, at least I know i’m in good company

I did see it……. Today I didn’t have a nap, didn’t get so tired that I had to sleep…. been cleaning house, floors, changing sheets, took Miss Dog to the puppy parlor and washed her bedding……. put all the stuff I cleaned out of my closet into the garage to take to goodwill…… Gee….. now having a glass of french white wine, I’m almost back to myself….. yippy skippy….

Good for you. That sounds snarky but is meant genuinely. I have been way humbled thru my parenting experience.

Is the purpose of legally defining american indians out of existence to avoid financial responsibility for funds owed by the US to the tribes?

Not half bad at all. Very often that is all any of us can hope for. I have always claimed that my proudest achievement is that my son and I both survived until his 18th birthday. He doubles that in April and is married himself with two sons and two step kids to whom he is a wonderful father.

I haven’t had time to read all the responses, but I must ask: If the father and mother won’t pay for the birth costs, must I as a taxpayer?

Evening, all.
Do I love the commenters on this site. You guys are the best.

I have always argued that defending the “sanctity of marriage” requires the immediate prohibition of marriage in a drive-thru chapel by a drunk Elvis impersonator. If that is ok, then I don’t want to hear the “sanctity” BS.

If you continue to elect people who use their bibles to scribe public policy for the wider population, and impose their moral code on the nation, then yes.

hmmm wine. Wow, you wwere busy today! Next to you, I feel like a little slug *g*

It is important and worthwhile. The fundamental issue is that the creation of ethnic identities (including race) are all about competition and frequently conflict. Understanding how and why we construct particular identities and how we manipulate and alter those is fascinating and important. (FWIW, I am a little bit of an expert on ethnogenesis). That understanding is vital to our ability to deal with others both domestically and internationally.

I’m confused. If the father and mother pay the birth costs, then no one pulls out the shotgun. Right? If they don’t want to pay, the state waives the fee if they get married (who knows why the state thinks this is a good idea!) Or they can make monthly payments for the medical care they received. I just never have understood why my taxes should pay for other people’s bad decisions. Stoopid me, I guess.

That is why I’m hooked on the subject(s). I find it interesting also how part of the construction of our own identities (western) arises from the identity we construct for other cultures. We are validated by invalidating others. no wonder the world is in a perpetual bad mood

If you have a Trader Joe’s near you the wine is French – Lacheteau Loire Vally Vouvray… lovely crisp chilled….. we drove through the valley last summer…..

DING!
Got it in one. The federal government, in the words of one Federal Commissioner of Indian Affairs, has been trying to “get out of the Indian business” for about 130 years. That is also the source of the abuses I mentioned leading to the passage of the 1978 American Indian Child Welfare Act. It is also why Indian Health Service hospitals were routinely performing involuntary sterilizations on Indian women from the 1950s through the mid-1970s.

And as long as the ’state’ prohibits sex education and drastically limits the tools proscribed therein – birth control – then your Senators, Congresspersons, Presidents, and the courts they select will decide for you.

Ah, the identity thing. I sashayed into that quagmire thru my foreign policy reading (what defines the identity of a country).

What is ethnogenesis and what can you tell us about one or two important implications wrt our ability to deal with others? (If you don’t mind.)

its not always a bad decision that lands a person on hard times

As Barth and others have shown (I really like Benedict Anderson as well), identities are always constructed in opposition to others. We define ourselves as “not them” (or them or them or those other folks over there…).

guess it depends on how you see the role of gov’t. I see it as having a responsibility for ensuring that its citizens have a certain quality of life (services to its citizens–safe, clean food, air, water, medical care, education, etc.)

Consider what the consequenses are for the child if the state (taxes) does not pay for the child’s expenses.

That too. Thanks. In fact, for the poor, circumstances beyond their control are more frequently the source of the problems.

I know that people make mistakes, but I also believe in taking some kind of responsibility. But, hey, I’m old and the pill wasn’t available when I was hot/young, so I had to think about my choices. I could NEVER have gone home pregnant and told my mother! (best birth control I’ve ever heard of!) I pay my way — even when I make mistakes. You know?

I live at Trader Joes. i will definitely try a bottle.

How can it be a bad decision when
A: no one received sex education
B: no access to birth control either from lack of medical facilities or legislation

Two kids have sex without all the knowledge to make an informed decision….. That is not a BAD decision just a crime against these kids….

Name me a kid who doesn’t know how to use a game console – you can’t. No one is barring access to that information, or preventing them from using that information.

But isn’t it fascinating how the ‘us’ and ‘them’ started off as geological and then took off from there? I also find it interesting that (my area os Latin America during the age of ‘discovery’) many of the europeans re-named places, things and even people in the americas. talk about taking an entire culture out of existence!

In Canada, First Nations women used to lose their status if they married non-First-Nations men. It was a very big deal when those women had their rights re-instated. But there was also resistance to this change from Aboriginal communities, because it meant that the women and their families could move back to the communities, putting a strain on already-limited resources.

Of course, you probably knew this already…

Ethnogensis is the creation of ethnic identity. All identities are created at some point and all undergo constant revision and alteration. My own research was on the creation of Seminole Indian identity in the 18th and 19th centuries (there are no Seminoles prior to 1720).

One example of the utility is regarding the rise of fundamentalist Islam and a resurgence of Muslim identity among many European Muslim immigrant communities. Many of these have been living in Europe for generations and generally blending in to the larger society. The current situation is a reaction to their increasing marginalization and exclusion by the larger society. Conversely the resurgence of white power, nationalists, and neo-Nazis in Europe are also part of the same dynamic (I spend about a week talking about this in my class).

I take it that you do not agree that health care is a right.

These kids had parents. Hey, I’m a social worker. I’m a parent. I told my kids and my kid clients to use their heads as well as their other extremities. I just don’t get why people don’t have that pay-as-you-go mentality. I just never expected a free ride. And, believe me, there wasn’t much sex education in the 50’s — just keep your legs crossed. I’m not very soft. I don’t know a 13 year old who doesn’t know that sex might result in a kid. But maybe I’m living in another world.

I came of age in that golden age after the pill and before AIDS. So I used to think that those problems were solved. Even after AIDS, an almost completely preventable disease thru use of condoms, I initially thought, well you know… But life is much more complicated than I allowed. Real humans just don’t behave according to the rules I followed. And making “irresponsible” humans subject to the negative consequences of their behavior does not stop the irresponsibility. So what to do? Punish the innocent children of such behavior by forcing a bad marriage, or risk the moral hazard by having those kids supported by taxpayers. My moral compass says that the latter is better than the former. YMMV.

I absolutely agree that universal health care is a right and have advocated for it every chance I get! Get the insurance companies out of the mix and get on with real health care. And make sex education real!

In fairness, the native peoples also renamed the Europeans. Labeling is part of the process. FWIW the Muscogee (Creek) Indian name for Georia colonists in the 18th century was Este Ekan Cayace (People greedy for land).

Yep. Part of my lectures in Native Peoples of North America.

Technical term is cultercide. Recently evident in the U.S. standing by while Iraq museum and archeological digs were ravaged.

That seems less like a “label” than an accurate description of reality.

Why is health care a free ride?

Urrk! That should be “Georgia colonists”.

In that case why do you object to paying childcare costs out of the public purse for a couple of young parents who can’t afford it? Because this is how public health care gets paid for.

Sorry – I meant healthcare costs, not childcare

Actually the commonly used technical term for the destruction of a culture is “ethnocide” (official US federal Indian policy from Washington to Nixon).

Health care isn’t a “free ride”, I think. I’d rather my taxes go to make a stronger, more healthy populace than starting wars, for instance. Most people pay some taxes. Those who pay none are generally unable to. I’d just rather that my country provide for the well being of the populace. Call me a socialist if you wish.

True they did though I don’t see much damage coming from the native side. The violent collision of these cultures…hell any two cultures that come into contact are forever changed but how they change each other is the difference between a culture being obliterated and another thriving

You don’t know the half of it. Reading the Georgia colonial records is, shall we say, rather edifying. Le us just say that as bad as Georgians are today, they were a hundred times worse in the 18th century. Also, John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church and a truly self righteous bastard par excellence, was expelled from the colony as a public nuisance.

Don’t know what you mean. I also advocate assitance for childcare. Another socialist idea, I guess. Just makes sense to me.

Wouldn’t part of the well being of the populace include giving birth? if something went terribly wrong during birth, the child has some chance but if that is taken away because they lack money….well lets just say our already egregious infant mortality rate is going to go up

From Eli’s piece:

Gary Johnson was billed $3,800 for the birth of his daughter JaeLyn…

No one is suggesting that the public should pay for a stroller. If child birth doesn’t come under the label ‘healthcare’, than what does?

The power differential is the critical element in all ethnic interactions. The more powerful group is able to impose its definitions on others and their stereotypes have greater impact. Thus the fact that the Creeks and Seminoles I work with think all white people are crazy and not to be trusted has little or no impact on anybody’s life. Conversely the belief by white Oklahomans that the Indians are drunken, lazy, irresponsible animals has profound consequences on their lives,

I’m not ready and never will be ready to legislate when and how people can have children. very third reich-ish to me

Thanks. Though I think culturcide hooks people like me.

I was responding to your comments above:

I just never have understood why my taxes should pay for other people’s bad decisions.

and

I haven’t had time to read all the responses, but I must ask: If the father and mother won’t pay for the birth costs, must I as a taxpayer?

Which sounded like you did not think the public should pick of these costs. But I may have misinterpreted.

I don’t know any place that is denying childbirth care — just that if someone can pay for it, they should. But I like newtonusr’s idea that childbirth should come under the label of ‘healthcare’ — yes, I can get with that — let’s just do it thoroughly…..let’s push for universal healthcare. But, also, if we can pay, dontcha think we should? And let’s, I think, get past this idea that the guy has no responsibility for the bringing into this world of his offspring. Is that too much to ask?

Well, I don’t know anything about Wesley. But labeling a religious nutcase as a public nuisance passes my smell test.

and why there wasn’t greater pushback against these discourses even while they are being refuted by explorers, scientists, etc. is fascinating. It really speaks to how many were an active participant in the discourse while others we only a product of it (but pushed back against it — at least somewhat)

I’m a nurse and raised three kids of my own and had 6 teenage foster kids. My own kids learned their sex ed from me and on the farm but each foster kid had various levels of knowledge or one had no knowledge as her mother thought if she didn’t know anything then she wouldn’t have sex.

I want science based sex education, access to affordable contraceptives and NO FORCED marriages again!

Responsibility for caring for his offspring is a different matter, but the post was about going after some dude that couldn’t pay the hospital/birthing costs.

I will say that if a person has a difficult time supporting his/her kid, I’m all for govt assistance because it isn’t the child’s fault. We don’t know why or under what circumstances someone is having difficulty supporting their child financially (sickness, recent unemployment, etc) and if the parent is unable to care for the child, the govt should step in and do what it can. Healthy, well fed kids is an important part of an overall healthy populace

Those discourses provided the intellectual justification for the entire European (and later American – here including Latina American) colonial enterprise. Starts, in part, with Natural Law doctrines and the Law of Nations. Much of 19th and early 20th century social science and “race science”(sic) were also part of this enterprise. The subjects of these discourse did indeed push back (to the extent that they were even aware of the discourse which were often only for European consumption), but the power differential meant they had little impact. There is some good literature on some of this in colonial Mexico.

I’m heading off to bed….. good night everyone…. Take care of each other….

late late nite upstairs

nite katymine

Good nite katymine.

I’m with you one science based sex ed., but I have to say that years of working with juveniles didn’t convince me that there were any who were as naive as I was in the last 50’s. I kind of think that kids today know where babies come from. And, call me hard nosed, but I kind of think that that if people had to pay their own way they might be a bit more careful…..and I’m talking boys, here. If boys knew that they would have to pay, they might be more careful or thoughtful. Maybe not, but it’s an idea. Why shouldn’t a guy have to pay for the birth costs of his offspring? Make that make sense to me. Are we thinking that Gary Johnson just never thought he’d have to pay up? Poor guy with a loose penis?

Frankly, I think we are framing this issue wrong. Aside from the fact that healthcare, including childbirth, should be a right (as it is in every other industrialized country) not a privilege. Secondly, the issue is not that some poor schmuck had a kid when he could not afford to pay for it. It is that his employer (and he apparently works full time) does not pay him enough to meet normal living expenses. We need to redefine “minimum wage” as a living wage. Anything less than that is a subminimum wage.

Night. Sleep well.

Indeed.

That was actually responding to wobbs at 170.

I have been looking at the historical processes, prevalent attitudes about foreign cultures as well as textual form (I’m working with Travel Narratives)
The question of consciousness of discourse was brought up by Said in terms of being aware of one’s own prejudices and such. It really does speak to whether one culture can write/report objectively about another culture.

Thanks for chatting with me on this, Dr. Dick. i have so few opportunities to pick a scholar’s mind. *g*

boa noite Katymine.

Any time. If you want, feel free to contact me through FB.

There is much work to be done.

Very much indeed.

Think I will head to bed. Take care all.

OMG this is insane.

Way to encourage fathers to skip town and never come back. Really fing brilliant.

The heart of the issue is that MI has made the bill conditional on whether or not the couple gets married.

They should either make it free for everyone, *not* free for everyone (not optimal IMO), or income-based for everyone, but they should not use the childbirthing costs as a bribe or a club to pressure couples into bad marriages. The government should not be trying to sway the decision to marry – it’s social engineering at its worst.

Would you still be “annoyed” if he were the only person in his family with a job? What if he makes more than his father and grandfather combined?

Time to turn your annoyance on a place where $8.00 is considered a liveable wage. Or better yet on a place that belives healthcare is only for the healthy or the wealthy.

Blaming victims has such a mean-spirited ring to it.

They’re moralizing — and they’ve sold “santity” — not only as an idea to capture the right wingnuts, but to appeal to their ALL-Christian, All-the-time Greed.

It’s a twofer for the basest among us.

Isn’t it amazing how comservative coercion always involves the punitive aspects of our draconian health care system. Don’t do what they want? They’ll deny you access so you’ll die. Or make you solely responsible for the crippling costs of not dieing. I guess this is why rethug conseratives hate idea of universal healthcare – it would severely diminish their ability to blackmail everyone else.