ZED!

War is over. If you want it.

How is the Israeli right wing polling in the coming elections? Are they running on we can win Viet Nam er whatever they are calling the current war.

Shorter domestic Israeli policy: Who gives a rat’s ass what the voters think, we have to keep the rabid right wing happy.

If so then expect an escalation in the conflict. Israel will then run against Obama and say his peace attempts are anti Israel. I think the Neocons are coordinating their losing strategy across borders.
Maybe its time to cut their military aid?

Well past time.

Feeling their reputation was at risk they turned around, found the weakest kid in the neighborhood, and still couldn’t beat them down. Oops.

Sounds rather like what the Bush government has done with the United States. We aren’t winning in Afghanistan and the “flowers and chocolates in 90 days” victory of Iraq never happened. Guess maybe the neocons of both this country and Israel are incompetent fools when it comes to their ideas of strength through war. Unfortunately their stupidity leads to the deaths of thousands and thousands.

Dugg

Evening Ian. The never ending conflict goes on and on.. I wonder if all of them will someday realize we are all brothers and killing each other is futile and never completly settles anything.

But then every time the U.S. tries to make suggestions as to how the aid to Israel should be spent, the Israelis threaten to refuse the money and we capitulate and apologize for having the audacity to interfere. Disagree with anything Israel does-Presto, out comes the anti Semite label.

Well, here is one more of the many, many things I don’t understand.

Why would Israel and the US reach a deal without first securing the agreement of one of the key parties to the implementation? Because they don’t want the deal to hold?

Looks like Egypt is the winner here.

One of my more pessimistic Jewish friends says the whole situation is completely unsolvable.

I just think that the war was done for internal political reasons, since without it the current leadership would lose the next election, and that personal politicial considerations, and the strategic incompetence of the Israeli elites ruled the day.

“Tzipi’s War”

Does anyone know the details on the weapons supply to Gaza? I think I know that they originate in Iran and go into Gaza thru the tunnels from Egypt. But how are they transported in-between and who does the transport?

Guess maybe the neocons of both this country and Israel are incompetent fools when it comes to their ideas of strength through war.

We do have the Bush spying laws lets see if the NeoCons are coordinating across borders? Foreign Policy is the President’s and Congress job not Rich NeoCons!
Time to restore the President some Powers.

It is decades past time to cut their military aid. It won’t happen though, U.S. support for Israel is unconditional. Bear in mind, not only does Israel wield tremendous influence over U.S. policy, so do the war profiteers who benefit from the fact that virtually all of our diplomacy includes or paves the way for arms sales.

The assault on Gaza was done with a lack of attention to consequences that would make the Bush Administration proud. It was only about the election. Everything else was kabuki.

ofg – I’ve had to live with that label since April, 2004.

As long as you aren’t an anti-Semite, you make a lot of Jewish friends. I’ve made hundreds. And they almost all hate this goddam fucking war. It’s a tough label to be tagged with, but by denying militant, expansionist Zionists that weapon, we can take a lot from them.

I don’t know for sure. The conduit for a lot of stuff to Hezbollah was by air to Syria and then across the border into Lebanon. There could be air and sea links to Egypt from Iran or via the Emirates; by way of Lebanon to Egypt; or to Egypt via the general arms trade that operates all through that area.

Does Egypt turn a blind eye to the stuff that enters the country, or is it so complex that Egypt would find it difficult to intercept if it wanted to? Why has the U.S. not pressured Mubarak to make greater efforts to stop it, like the U.S. pressures Pakistan to go after the Pashtuns?

So we let them refuse we need every dollar for the Stimulus. Jewish voters are in a box they can push publicly and politically for America to help Israel when Israel is politically unpopular and the public is not supporting this cause.
The more noise they make on this issue the more they turn the public off against their cause.
The normal political calculations about voters do not apply because the voters are paying attention. They will think that the money, money which can go for the stimulus is being spent to kill people.
The Israeli lobby will be surprised if they raise the stakes.

love this from Sean-Paul

Maybe that clue is this: you can’t keep a people locked up in what is, in essence a concentration camp without them doing the exact same things you did when Jews were locked up and besieged in the Warsaw ghetto? Ring a bell? Perhaps you ought to try a different approach, like actually talking to Hamas, the, erm, elected government of Palestine and then dismantling the settlements in the West Bank and share the water from the Jordan River in a fair and equable fashion?

Sometimes I wonder if one factor prolonging the I/P war is that Israel made the strategic decision to delay permanent peace as long as possible based on the expectation said peace will constrict their aquifer access.

No they got plenty of internal unrest of the fundy muslim variety of their own no way are they letting weapons in without then controlling who gets it. Well unless their leaders are as dumb as Bush that is.

Well our pressure on the Pakistanis has worked out so well with the Pashtuns, hasn’t it? Egypt is an authoritarian state but I don’t know how much control it exercises over sectors that don’t challenge its power. I’m thinking not much. IIRC the Bedouin in the Sinai are pretty disaffected with the Egyptian government and I would expect they facilitate a lot of the smuggling in the area.

I wonder if the staggering economy will hurt contributions to AIPAC as much as it’s hurting contributions to the Opera.

Israel’s policy for always firebombing peace efforts involves having control over the whole of Palestine for as long as possible, including but not limited to, Palestine’s water resources.

Sometimes I wonder if one factor prolonging the I/P war is that Israel made the strategic decision to delay permanent peace as long as possible based on the expectation said peace will constrict their aquifer access.

it would surprise the hell out of me if that was not part of the calculation.

Time to turn swords to plows and get the military industrial complex making green power, hybrid cars and high speed freight and passenger trains.

I wonder sometimes if U.S. politicians possess any sincere desire for a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Most of our policies appear to be aimed at preserving the status quo.

Not saying pressure would work, just wondering why it hasn’t been tried.

Your info about the Sinai bedouin is the kind of knowledge I’m interested in acquiring. Any link or book reference?

False Flag Rockets, fired not by Hamas – but by Israel – upon Israel…by way of deception.

Well, that’s Israel’s policy (see my 25) and since U.S. is in bed with Israel, it becomes U.S. policy by default. I think it’s conscious but unspoken on Israel’s part. As for the U.S., I wonder how conscious it is.

Perhaps some, but not all of them.

Hey chica, glad to see you

from the jerusalem post:

Pensioners Affairs Minister Rafi Eitan became the first minister on Sunday to publicly call for the postponement of the February 10 election due to the ongoing operations in the Gaza Strip.

At Sunday’s cabinet meeting, he called for delaying the race by six weeks in order to take the election off the national agenda to allow the country’s leaders to focus on the war.

He said he believed that most of the nation agreed with him, especially the soldiers and their families.

Other top politicians have expressed support for delaying the race in private conversations.

OT sounds like Pinch told the Times to play nice with Caroline:

In a Most Private Kennedy, a Lure of Public Duty

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01…..ne.html?hp

Maybe they could make a sci-fi horror movie out of this and call it the Candidacy that would not die!

I think our pols are completely cognizant of what they are doing. Look at how the presidential candidates prostrated themselves before AIPAC. Such obeisance is required if you want to be part of the ruling class in this country.

Nope just some of the info I picked up from stories about how some of the terrorist attacks against tourists were carried out in some of the Sinai tourist resorts.

Maybe they could make a sci-fi horror movie out of this and call it the Candidacy that would not die!

Paterson holds the wooden stake that will put a lasting finish on that monster (referring to the candidacy, not Caroline). Somebody help him find his mallet.

Oh I agree that U.S. pols pimping for Israel is conscious. I meant to ask whether the U.S. pols were conscious of the fact that Israel has no intention of ever making peace.

That’s a good clue. I didn’t read those articles carefully. Will do so in the future.

Sea of Galilee is 600 ft below sea level. 600 ft = 300 psi.
Add another 1,000 psi boost (solar powered) and a large (200 ft in diameter), buried pipeline about 25 miles long and one could generate acre-ft of fresh water from revese osmosis.

What to do with the brine (waste)? Pipe it to the dead sea.

Where to get the $ to pay for it? Ask the Oil Rich countries,
conditioned on Isreal making the Palestinians equal citizens in the country.

Give them somthing good to focus on instead of fighting over.

What is so bizarre about the AIPAC obsession is that it doesn’t reflect the views of most Jews in the country. Glenn Greenwald has gone into this a couple of times where he has had polls showing that views of Jewish Americans are the same as Americans in general and want a balanced approach.

I don’t think most of our elected officials grasp any big pictures. The ones who do are comfortable with Israel’s tactics.

That sounds like a great idea.

But it’s not just water. It’s control over the whole land for as long as possible that is Israel’s objective. We’ve had over 40 years of consistent behavior on Israel’s part to form that conclusion.

Something to start with on the Bedo of Sinai.

I like it

AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbying organizations and as such they have a lot more influence over elected officials than do the citizens who actually elect them.

You’re probably right, but I’d like to know for sure, to know what sensible people are up against: evil or ignorance.

I’d like to get seated next to Hillary on the shuttle from DC to LGA some Friday afternoon. *g* (That refers to my getting seated next to Senator D’Amato about 15 years ago. One of the most fascinating conversations I’ve ever had.) Of course, I’ll bet that senators no longer condescend to fly on the shuttle with the hoi poloi.

One more.

Let’s see your idea is practical, mature, well thought out, would benefit everyone…nah they will never go for it.

imo it is far more complicated that what the polls show. for example, i have a jewish friend and i’m quite sure that she would say she wants a balanced and fair approach and i have no doubt that she means it. the problem comes that she seriously can’t stand to hear any criticism of israel gov actions. it actually causes her pain.

Getting better.

and i’d like to be seated behind you so i could listen in.

(bows) Konnichi, Wobbs

I saw that you’re through app hell. Welcome back. Hope all are well.

I’m afraid any opportunity to talk to Joe Biden while riding Amtrack are probably behind us too.

Obama can use that to shape public opinion and cancel Israeli military aid. The Neocons are assuming that all Jews when pushed will think like they do. We break that belief we break them.
Winning a fight like this will discredit the Neocons to the GOP as folks who can’t deliver. It would also unnerve the Israel belief that they can keep playing us that could force them to peace.

Thanks very much. Helping me up the steep part of the learning curve. Sounds a little bit like the NW Frontier province of Pakistan.

A lot of things about the Bedo haven’t changed since Lawrence’s time. Really interesting people.

Got a white paper. Done some engineering. Let’s get it in front of HRC. Make her a hero. Anybody got access?

Thanks again. The first article was more informative and seemed less biased. The second seemed like Egypt looking for scapegoats. Bedoin ID card could be manufactured evidence.

((SD)) Yes!!! It was hell and things will be back to normal when I’m done with the fellowship applications/essays, etc. Not as hair-pulling as the PhD apps, but still take up a lot of my time. How are you and the tigers?

Heh. If it ever happened you can be sure there would be a diary here.

eli upstairs

Yep, more’s the pity. I wonder how many people have probed him on his frequent rail trips, and what did they learn.

I’m all for it but no access here

Well, I did read Seven Pillars of Wisdom, so I have a nodding acquaintance with the people, at least from Lawrence’s POV.

We be fine. Rescued one more about 2 months ago. 5 year old male given up by older couple. Feurae.

Not a bad analogy, actually. Sinai has a population of roughly 500,000. The combined populations of North and South Waziristan is roughly 800,000. Of course, Sinai has the advantage of not having been a front in Dubya’s War On Terror™.

Good to ‘hear’. Weebits says hi :)

I didn’t realize trains had that in common with UFO abductions. “g”

Seven Pillars is a wonderful read. Lot of ego but also a fairly good observer.

From SD’s first link:

The Bedouin are an indigenous people living in the Sinai, Saharan and Arab deserts. Their numbers in the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt, between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea, are estimated around 380,000, divided into some 26 different tribes.

Not a bad analogy, to return the favor. Being “trapped” on a train or plane probably has a lot in common with a UFO abduction.

And a great adventure story to boot.

What happened with Weebits and aunt?

You’re right, I didn’t read the Sinai wiki entry closely enough.

My aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer and is undergoing treatment so weebits goes back and forth. She seems to have adapted beautifully. Being here is like vacation

I found a first edition in Powell’s Books in Portland OR in the late 70s. Still have it. Matter of fact I saw another at Haslam’s (indy) in St Pete not too long ago.

Damn, sorry to hear that.

Best wishes for a successful outcome.

Thanks but she is responding well to treatment and they caught it relatively early. Unlike a friend of mine’s sis-in-law. Early thirties and terminal cancer.

Nice!

I read it because my army major efriend (or former efriend as he no longer responds to my emails) sent me some war college reading lists. I didn’t read many of them, but I thought 7 Pillars would be a hoot, and it was. I bought a used paperback copy thru amazon.

(((wobblybits))) I hope all goes well.

Thanks all, I will pass your good wishes along to my aunt

He wrote an article for Britannica on guerilla warfare which is still considered a classic. Reminds me I’ve got to find that link again cuz it was on my old machine. Should be on everyone’s reading list re ME.

Well, that didn’t take long. Lawrence of Arabia on Guerrilla Warfare.

Hoss, this is the unsolvable part of all our problems.
It’s the monetary grip that owns all that we do.
It rules the political spectrum who campaign for it, and serve for it.
It controls and dominates our domestic agendas, and our foreign agendas.

Your paragraph is singularly unique in its simplicity for explaining why we are/have been fucked for decades upon decades, and why Obama is not likely to lead us out of our self imposed fucktitude.

The bonds that tie and cripple us masses and us as a country, the bonds between arms, economics, wealth, control, power and politics, are tightly tig-welded together with time, staff and money taken from the sweat equity of our labours.

Thanks very much. Bookmarked it & will read it when I’m fresh. Reminded me that guerilla warfare was also the context in which I read 7 Pillars. It’s not as though that kind of asymmetric warfare is a new phenomenon. It’s as old as the hills.

My army major efriend (when we were still communicating) told me that guerilla warfare was specifically excluded from war college curricula for awhile after Vietnam, because the military was determined never to fight such a war again. How painfully they do not learn.

Everybody gets paid. Arms go thru, regardless of who they are destined for.

But the cousin of my brother and his cousin all get paid, top to bottom.

Egypt can crush the Muslim Brotherhood within its borders when ever it wants to. No matter WHAT small arms weapons and hand held RPG’s and such come thru. Everyone gets paid.

Now, where IS the source of all that cash? Ain’t we still missing billions of bundles of money’s from Iraq? How many screwed up black ops with bundles of moneys have gone down since we started DOING black ops? *G*

For some reason conventional military forces don’t like fighting guerrillas. They see it the same way the Redcoats saw the Americans and those nasty barbarian redskins. Hidin’ behind trees and rocks an’ all. Nasty warfare and conventional forces never win in the long run.

It’s a way of life. Baksheesh. On a large scale.

I don’t think Bedouin, or Pashtun tribes (or any similar such) in any country need to account FULLY for smuggling, etc. Surely they smuggle, and get paid.

But that’s a drop in the chaing.

If one assumes EVERYONE gets paid, from the top down, then it’s much easier to understand how it happens and why it’s so hard to stop.

And I’d bet my left nut that Mubarak is getting paid, as much as the Bedouins, Pashtuns and Asif Ali ZARDARI or Hamid Karzai.

Hell, Reagan was getting paid (one way or another), as was/is the CIA, and other internal ‘regimes’ of the USA. Sometimes we buy stuff, sometimes we sell stuff. And we ALWAYS sell arms. But the markets are always open, and someone is always getting paid. *G*

Aquifers, arable land already taken, arid land already taken and TO be taken, gas off the Gazan Strip . . . it’s all to be accessed and controlled so Israel can continually expand geographically and politically, one way or another. You betcha!

I love Ian’s post and the early comments though, as they pose the question of how far WILL the neocons/GOP (yes, they still talk to each other behind the scenes) go to subjugate Obama’s administration.

Will they cross the line of political party differences and aid and abet the enemy WRT actual DELIVERY of Obama Admin policy? Treason, ya know. *G*

That would be a revolution in of itself, and would encompass so many things, people and special interests and cornerstones of entrenched wealth and power to be almost impossible in my imagination. How would you do it?

Look at what you are up against? A completely entrenched and large system built upon itself. Metaphorical cliffs unscalable by any means existent to overcome them.

Only their own complete and utter degradation and ruin of themselves will allow the system change you speak of.

And to answer ya before you reply, yeah, we’re ON that road but it’s got a decade or more to run its course . . . .

And by then, the planet will speak its mind of the matters of mere humans . . .

That should be the FIRST thing on your top of mind awareness. Follow the money. War and arms are a means of money, power and control.

Maybe not by Israel, but False? Good call . . . . any number of people could be paid to take poorly manufactured products and set them off southerly. Everyone gets paid, and the longer it goes on, the longer people get paid for doing the same thing, over and over again. Status quo is money for war. I’ll try and stop repeating myself. Good thread, great comments, as usual. Thanks all.

Let her be appointed if that’s what the Governor will do. It’s legal.

And let her serve. In 2012 the public can cast votes, also legally, to keep or boot her.

But let her serve. Let’s see how she does. Her father and uncle were murdered decades ago. Her other uncle has served well, for the most part. It’s not like she’s piggy backed all her life on their creds.

I think our system will allow for her service to be judged. Let the system serve her, and us, as well.

Harumph.

And a part of every country, culture, and lifestyle thruout history! *G*

Baksheesh, like chi without milk, is a given. *G*

And that would leave the Palestinians nothing with which to protest. Would they still be in our thoughts and prayers? What do we DO about their problems when they don’t protest?

Don’t we all just assume that everything is A-OK and we have our own problems to worry about when there’s no war over there?

We GIVE bombs and illegal arms and chemicals to Israel, and now you suggest that all protection from the Palestinians be withheld. If you agree that this war was coming no matter what because of internal Israeli politics, then what defense would Hamas have against that? The same thing would have happened — Israel would have found another excuse.

Or do you actually believe that Israelis only want peace and that the reason they kill all those innocents is because, like the wife who’s beaten daily, they “deserve” it.

Israel has one big surprise coming if they think they can run against the big O. His election owed nothing to their constituency, and if his administration manages to pull the US away from the brink of the Great Depression, their blackmailing power will be finished for a generation. I’m sure the brighter minds in the Israeli establishment understand this. Hard to say what the Likudniks think. Netanyahu is going to get his nuts cracked, though, if he comes to the White House with anything that looks like an unrequited demand.

Well, as an Israeli, I was surprized to realize during this war that I had come to believe that the last war actually “worked out” : both Hezbollah and Israel established some deterence effect towards each other, and given a chance for things to escalate again (for instance, this war) the sides did NOT escalate.

So my hopes are that after both sides are done saying “I won”, “no, you lost” etc, the same thing will happen with Gaza : Hamas will not launch missiles into Israel and Israel will recognize that it must talk to Hamas, even if only through back channels. This will result in an exchange for some bodies and the same sort of calm that now exists on the Lebanon border.

Yes, Hamas will probably re-arm but, like Hezbollah, but MAD (Mutually Assured Discomfort) may prevent anyone from launching. (And Israel will be re-armed, providing a few billion dollars of US bailout to the US arms industry).

frebnedzo – thanks for your perspective. especially being so far from the situation, it is helpful to hear directly from israelis and palestinians.

Ship to Somalia or Sudan, truck to Egypt.

The issue here isn’t about smuggling. THAT was Kabuki theater for Livni in the run up to the elections. The majority of rockets fired into Israel are not Kathushas but homemade, so the entire smuggling scene is a ruse. Israel doesn’t want to deal with Hamas, just as it didn’t want to deal with the P.L.O. You don’t solve rocket fire by bombing civilian infrastructure, just as you don’t stop suicide bombings by the same (which Israel did to the West Bank in 2002). Israel has to either get out of the West Bank, E. Jerusalem and Gaza (arrangements for religious sites in Jerusalem can be made) or else face what is likely to become the next state in the Palestinian struggle which is a demand for equality within the state of Israel, since that’s where the Palestinians are today. What Israel can’t expect is to continue the status quo of continuing its settler colonial project for Palestine and expect security. Zionism has to end at some point in time and space. The international community has made clear where that is–Israel’s 1967 border. Once Israel takes its colonies and goes home to Israel, the beginning of a genuine resolution of outstanding issues–including the thorny problem of Palestinian refugees–can begin. Hopefully, if George Mitchell is the next US Middle East envoy he will be tougher with Israel and clarify that we are no longer outsourcing U.S. policy on the conflict to Israel but retaining what is best for U.S. interests.