At today’s meeting with center-right pundits and Rachel Maddow there were no "far left" voices who could match the violent right wing extremism of the neocon-heavy dinner at George Will’s house last night. Granted, there are exactly zero pundits on the left as radical as Charles Krauthammer with that kind of notoriety so it would have been impossible to achieve parity. But while fringe neocon house organs like Commentary and The Weekly Standard were overrepresented, it’s not like anybody was invited from The Nation.
Whatever his motivations, it’s part of the received political wisdom of DC that Ronald Reagan was a genius to offer the neocons refuge from a Democratic party they felt had turned hostile to their interests during the Carter Administration. Obama’s actions will no doubt be viewed in that light.
Jacob Heilbrunn writes in They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons:
The neoconservatives were flourishing, and a kind of military-intellectual complex was coming into existence, bemoaned by liberals such as the New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis and championed by hawks like Paul Nitze, who was enraged that Carter had failed to give him an appointment in his administration. Lewis complained in a 1976 op-ed,
There is a new element, and intellectual one. It includes strong supporters of Israel who since the Yom Kippur War have become a significant factor in the growing support for larger U.S. defense budgets. The magazine Commentary is at the hart of this element, along with such Senators as Henry Jackson and Daniel Patrick Moynihan. The New Republic, now a leading pro-Israel voice, made a sustained attack on Paul Warnke before the election.
It was a fatal error on Carter’s part not to have co-opted Nitze. Instead, he left him outside the tent, free to agitate for a bellicose policy toward the Kremlin under the umbrella of the Committee on the Present Danger, which served as the locus of the traditional right and neoconservatives.
Jeanne Kirkpatrick’s 1979 essay in Commentary on Carter’s unseemly commitment to human rights, Dictatorships and Double Standards, became — as Heilbrunn notes — "a rallying cry for Carter’s opponents." Although the Reagan Democrats who defected the party were in large part working class whites disgruntled about abortion and affirmative action, Kirkpatrick’s essay gave the neocons who had grown uneasy with Carter and the Democrats "a coherent theory, a basis of attack, one that presidential hopeful Ronald Reagan, among others, quickly embraced."
Carter made a late attempt to mend fences with the neocons through Walter Mondale, meeting with Norman Podhoretz, Elliott Abrams and Kirkpatrick. But it was a disaster — they quickly wrote him off as "a foreign policy weakling" and defected to the Republican Party.
Well, not all of them. The New Republic maintained its position as the primary outlet for mainstreaming neocon ideology within the Democratic party, and the Coalition for a Democratic Majority still pursued Scoop Jackson’s goal to "bring the Democratic party back from the edge of extremism to its historial role as the party of the progressive center."
It was a goal that would be enunciated time and again, most recently by Senator Joseph Lieberman.
Obama has certainly bent over backwards to keep Lieberman in the fold.
Mondale tried to woo the neocons back in 1983, but they were already firmly embedded in the Republican party and cultivating the Christian right. George H. W. Bush had little use for them and called them "the crazies in the basement" for bolloxing Iran Contra, and they in turn hated him for Baker/Scowcroft and the decision not to pursue Saddam Hussein during the first Iraq war (and the subsequent gassing of the Kurds and Shiites).
They thought Bush Sr. was far too friendly with the Saudi monarchy and not supportive enough of Israel, and several actually backed Bill Clinton in ‘92 — Richard Schifter and AIPAC’s David Ifshin even reached out to neocons on his behalf. By the time Bill Kristol, John Podhoretz and David Brooks conjured up the Weekly Standard in ‘95, however, they were in the vanguard of ridiculing Bill Clinton, clamouring for impeachment and leading a "values" charge against homosexuality.
It’s not surprising that Obama wants to keep the neocons neutralized — they certainly have the megaphone to be able to do him considerable damage, and there is no question that they are vicious enough to do it for pure sport. They are also vain and egotistical enough to be susceptible to public courting and flattery.
But are they truly capable of being appeased?
From the LA Times review of Heilbrunn’s book:
[T]o describe the neocons as conservative is to misconstrue their purpose, which is to overturn rather than to preserve. Although having nominally made a transformative ideological journey from the left to right, neoconservatives, writes Heilbrunn, have “never really ceased to be radicals in temperament and style.” This residual radicalism is especially evident when it comes to foreign policy, which neoconservatives invariably view as a contest pitting good against evil. Contemptuous of realism, disdaining stability and equilibrium, neoconservatives show pronounced utopian propensities, fueled by exaggerated expectations about America’s capacity to set things right. Whether directed against communism, “Islamofascism” or the United Nations (or domestically against the CIA, the State Department and liberal Democrats), this utopianism finds expression in a penchant for uncompromising and confrontational militancy.
When Obama takes office next week he’s going to be walking into the Gaza woodchipper; the minute he deviates from the Bush position on Israel by so much as a scintilla all bets are off. Like Bill Clinton before him, he’ll soon find his own face being mercilessly mocked on the cover of the Weekly Standard.
The neocons were ex-Trotskyists who scribbled their way to power in small but influential rags like the Partisan Review, Commentary and Encounter. Their leap from intellectual gadflys to governance was disastrous, and we’ve all paid the price as they implemented their now discredited crackpot theories. Yet they’re like crazy ancients locked in the DC attic demanding fealty lest they start lobbing refuse from the gables. If Obama wants to dine with them, fine by me.
But there is an energetic online left which in many ways resembles the neocons in their early period, growing in popularity and influence as a result of having been vocally right for the past 8 years about the war, supply side economics, deregulation, bankruptcy, healthcare and a whole host of issues. Obama’s outreach efforts rarely seem to include them (though Maureen Dowd who referred to Obama as "Obambi" and Frank Rich who pelted him over Rick Warren were invited today).
Obama’s high approval numbers are keeping the wind at his back and meaningful opposition on the left from reaching critical mass. But the two Democratic freshmen that the DCCC gave the most money to in 2008 are anti-choice members from Alabama who voted against the Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Over time, the battle with the GOP — which is barely even a national party any more — may become less critical (and certainly less interesting) than the battle with progressives over the soul of the Democratic Party.
In that event, I’m sure Larry Kudlow will be willing to rally to his defense and gush on cue.
Bon appetite!
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I wonder who he will have afternoon tea with?
Hmm. Is it to avoid that error what Obama has been doing with his cabinet appointments?
Who was it who said something like, “Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer”?
Bob in HI
Lindsay Graham, apparently.
I wonder Obama took an antacid before he went to dinner. The thought of sitting down with these dinos would require that I be four sheets to the wind to able to do it.
That struck me too.
Does Lindsay stick his little finger out?
That book is fascinating and so revealing. You really see why Scoop Jackson gives the Instapundit crowd such a woody.
Ya but you need them velcroed to you?
I think going to dinner was a very smart play. It must have been a pretty short one, as he left at 9:30. At my place, that’s when we start dining at a dinner party. Must have been pretty boring conversation.
It’s a smart move for the Big O because he gets to take the measure of the pricks who he knows will be skewering him in 10 days, and it also gives him a chance to send the subliminal message ‘don’t fuck with me’. I’m sure that one was sent, and I’m sure it was received. Bill Clinton’s mistake was not leaving a body or two in the garbage can to ‘encourage the others’ as they say in French. The MSM washington crowd had a field day with him. Obama is not making that mistake.
The Wills, et alop are first and foremost toadies. They mouth the libertarian line, but I think it’s only because it’s all they know. They believe their bottom lines, and are lazy. Scare the shit out of them, and they fall into line. I think Obama wanted them to see a bit of his steel, politely, to be sure, but unmistakably. Very European.
Jane wrote:”At today’s meeting with center-right pundits and Rachel Maddow there were no “far left” voices who could match the violent right wing extremism of the neocon-heavy dinner at George Will’s house last night.”
******* Well said Jane.When did Ron Brownstein became “librul” I am trying to find out,wish me luck.
Afternoon, Jane;
” …an energetic online left which in many ways resembles the neocons in their early period …”
Perhaps my memory fails, but what, exactly, did the budding neocons get ‘right’, vocally or otherwise?
Are there any good neocon basketball players?
138 hrs & 16 min
Dugg!
This one goes with playing poker with Harry Reid. Obama reads these pickles for what they are, absorbs a little southern culture on the skids (sorry to the band of that name) and knows how to play them for what they are.
Poker is a great game. I am only guessing, but he may have seen what they weren’t there to tell.
The neocons view Barack Obama as a lefty extremist who ‘eats aborted fetuses’ on Saturday nights with gays present, so I can just imagine what they thought when they found out one of their own went to dinner with Barack.
We need to stop pretending certain things.
We need to stop pretending that Democrat==Liberal and Republican==Conservative. I know we love our black and white dichotomies in this country, but the truth is much more complex. There are (socially/financially/Constitutionally) conservative Democrats; three are (socially/financially/Constitutionally) liberal Republicans. And there are, as we can see, some Republicans who aren’t conservative at all, but are actually anti-American radicals: neocons.
We also have to stop pretending that corporations don’t run both parties, because they do. Until we manage to pass real Campaign Finance Reform, both Democrats and Republicans will remain beholden to lobbyists and special interests. And that means that no matter how progressive a representative is, they are going to HAVE to play a mostly conservative game, because otherwise they will be expelled from office by the corporations at the next election.
Why did Obama meet with the neocons? Because the neocons are hand-and-glove with the corporations that serve as their propaganda channel. Ignore the neocons, and the corporations will attack, and that means a full-on media blitz of negativity. Obama HAS to appease the corporations, or the corporations will portray Mr. Obama as evil incarnate, and his approval ratings will fall through the floor.
Why doesn’t the President-elect meet with Left-Wing bloggers, or even acclaimed media people who helped him get elected such as Stephanie Miller? Maybe because he is not aware of the size of their combined audiences, or maybe because he is all too aware of those numbers…
We MUST excise the corporations from our government, and to do that we MUST have campaign finance reform. Until that happy day, even the most progressive politicians will be controlled by the corporations.
A stake in the ground and a short chain with a locking collar would seem to be out of the question, unfortunately.
The Neocons are a dangerous bunch but not impervious,just keep chipping away at the corners until the center collapses under its own weight.
I keep saying that we need a Mighty Wurlitzer with a hard lean to the left of our own to counter the message with equal volume.
nothing, but that didn’t stop them.
Obama was smart to have dinner with the creeps. Remember how the commander guy wouldn’t even talk to countries he didn’t approve of…..something like stamping your feet and saying “I’m not going to talk to you ’cause I don’t like you” – 4 year old type. Obama should co-opt these people whenever possible – no, I didn’t say cooperate. At least they can’t say he snubbed them.
Capt McConnell Capt McConnell, Scotty here shes breaking up, she can’t take much more of this.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/…..-a-cancer/
138 hrs & 6 min
Obama: I’ll have an ice water.
Krauthammer, Brooks, Kristol, Lowry, Will: We’ll have vinegar and water.
-G
oh, I am biting. my. tongue!
I could not believe my ears while listening to the presser with BO, Biden, and Lindsay (active duty stateside) Graham.
I guess LG was checking which way the wind was blowing with his little finger and it’s blowing towards Afghanistan. He decided he likes that.
randy rhodes and mike malloy would have been good to have dinner with barack
I don’t dispute any of that. It’s the world we live in, and we can imagine, but we can’t immediately make a better one. Obama is trying to work the system, rather than have the system work him, they way they did to Clinton. That means putting the pawns in the right place on the board. It’s like his election campaign. Nothing happened for months, because they were investing in the ground game. This is the same basic strategy. He has to neuter the Washington press enough to permit his internet presence to keep the lines open to the public.
FDR did the same thing with the radio. The major newspapers were all against him, and he went over their heads with his ‘fireside talks.’ Obama is trying to end-run the gate-keepers.
After I read “They Knew They Were Right,” I had an extended discussion with several people. I first thought that they would become the R party, since the neocons have been careful to create their successors (thru family ties, think tanks & publications), whereas the traditional Rs had allowed themselves to die out.
But as of the last election it because clear that the R party had irrelevized itself, meaning that if the neocons stuck with it, they’d be irrelevant too.
So then I predicted that the neocons would try to take over the Ds, and given the latter’s spinelessness, and Obama’s foreign policy picks, will probably succeed.
The neocons have won Round One.
Can I trade my old Dichotomy in for a new Dichotomy? :)
How about Incumbents vs. Newbies on the Hill? That’s my new black & white thinking for ya. *g*
Obama is hosting a dinner in honor of John McCain at the DC Hilton on monday night.
137 hrs & 59 min
good observation. did you see the political cartoon during the primaries with Hillary and Obama sitting over a checkerboard and he’s thoughtfully playing chess while she’s aggressively playing checkers? too funny.
Jane, it’s Trotskyist not ites. There were effective Trotskyist sects during the 70’s that industrialized and became active members in the UAW and USW. I’m married to a former Trotskyist and he’s now active in DSA.
So, the key to the transformation of these loons is Max Shachtman. He supported Viet Nam and people like Michael Harrington opposed it. They split. Shachtmanites went on to become neo-cons. Wanna know more? Read Max Shachtman and His Left by Peter Drucker.
I guess I was wrong, the online community was included in today’s fete
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan…..etail.html
Why? I’ve often seen “ite,” but never “ist” before your comment.
Well then, since the online left has been ‘correct’ these last eight years (and its forebears far longer, by my reckoning) what, really, is to stop this ‘left’ from having increasingly significant influence?
Besides money, the Political Cla$$, the Pundit Cla$$, and the ‘fact’ that corporations are ‘people’, too, and ‘money’ is simply ‘free speech’ by another name?
Do you think Obama realizes that a ‘change’ is coming?
Barack Obama will either be the last of the ‘traditional’ politician$ or the first of a new sort of leader.
The choice will be up to him; but, perhaps we can ‘help’ him in making this choice.
;~D
I dunno. Sully may represent “the online community” but he damn sure doesn’t represent the left.
My $.02
Not Piss and Vinegar?
Agree.
Don’t know about neocons- but Barkley was a gooper- until- as he says- they all became crazy.
Well there is that.
;)
Except YOU weren’t there, or Christy, or Arianna, or John Amato…
I think we need a working definition of “neocon”.
They are not necessarily socially conservative- or even conservative on economic matters. They are not the “Rush” lovin right wing fringe. They are intellectuals who had a heritage with the left and moved to the right on matters of defense and foreign policy.
Glad to see you escaped from whatever that was on the earlier thread. He/she should be easy to recognize by the veins in his teeth.
137 hrs & 43 min
That’s because you’re old like me. When we were in college they were called Trotskyites. Remember PL?
Is PEBO going to meet with Joe Francis and Larry Flynt to discuss the porn bailout?
They are far more respectable than that gaggle of soft fascists and reprobates.
-G
Andrew Sullivan with the “liberals?” Give me a break. And no refreshments?
And I adore Paul Krugman, who declined the invite. Perhaps there will be a separate luncheon for Nobel Laureates only.
As far as Lieberman, I hope Obama enjoys having him in the tent. Since he was the leak about Obama’s veto threat, it seems like that is working out very well for him.
Errands to run apparently saved me from dental thrombosis.
I would rather chew on three day old road kill opossum meat than dine on steaks with Bill Kristol.
Plead guilty to being old, but don’t know PL.
Just to reinforce a point made above…and methnks some fellow named, Andrew Stern of SEIU who was a member of the Pittsburgh chapter of NAM, which merged w/Harrington’s DSOC, in ‘83, IIRC, to create DSA, would not make that error of saying, “Trotskyite, ” which only elderly Stalinists I’ve known are still in the habit of saying, as they grumble that Trotsky is still a Nazi agent, heh, aargh, ahem but, I digress ;-) the relationship between TrotskyWasm and neo-conservatism, is way more complex than the standard Paleo-Conservative or left-liberal caricature. Besides reading the Drucker book on Shactman (and, having spoken with Peter, back when I was an activist in DSA, he is quick to say he is no relation to the bourgeois mgnt. theorist) and Heilbrunn, do spend some time actually reading the actual texts of the budding neo-cons, from the 50’s, on topics like the Rosenbergs, McCarthyism and Stalinism, as well as texts of theirs from the late 60’s/early 70’s when their residual links with the social democratic Left were being severed because, well the radical student movement/sds/New Left plus the Black Power militants )Black Panthers with Rifles taking over Cornel Univ. driving allan Bloom over the edge) were tearing apart the campuses and tearing apart many left-liberal institutions linked to the labor mvmnt.
Well, if nothing else, you would know that you’d prepared it properly and probably would not be poisoned..either by the meal..or by the company. :)
Gee thats fondness you can count on *g*
137 hrs & 35 min
Fanboy extraordinaire.
And not even an American!
Is Obama going to meet with Redstate Strikeforce?
What about sharing a cup of mulled cider with Atlasses Juggs?
-G
And not really a blogger — no commenting permitted at Andrew’s!
I personally am looking forward to hearing about PEBO’s meeting with the KKK.
If Obama decided to outlaw progressive, I am sure there would be progressives who would defend this as another cunning move on his part to throw conservatives off balance. Just out of curiosity for defenders of Obama out there, what will it take for you to re-assess him? Or is there anything?
Keeping Robert Gates at Defense, Lute as war czar, Petraeus as head of CENTCOM, and Odierno in Iraq, and naming Jim Jones as National Security adviser and Hillary Clinton at State, Obama has already signed up with the neocons. Our foreign policy will remain militarized.
I predict that Obama will make a sincere attempt to make peace with goopers- and it will last for about an hour and fifteen minutes until the first instance where the goopers think there’s political hay to make- at which time the die will be cast and we’ll be back to the daily flower wars we know and love so well- where no one is hurt and even the cowardly are welcome to fight.
We have a new post upstairs….
I’m still agnostic on Obama. Within six months I expect to have an opinion- but it’s way too early for me. I ANTICIPATE that he’ll be fairly mainstream in about everything he does. He may (or may not) attempt to redraw the divisions between the parties- something that has always interested me. Would love, for example, to see the main dividing line on domestic issues divide working americans (including CEOs and sports/entertainment stars) from “The investment class”.
The people who got screwed the most by Bush were people making a quarter of a million a year from salary alone….they paid full boat while “investors” paid at most 15%….
Is that before or after his meeting with the NRA?
I’m more interested to see if it’ll be before or after he’s inaugurated.
I know they were probably awe struck,in so much as they were getting their knives sharpened to start ripping him a new one,but what do you know he walked into the lions den,as a poster said earlier and completely disarmed them with that Barack charm and smile.
Good for him and good for the country.
Jane, one correction: The Kurds and Shiites were not gassed “subsequent” to the first Gulf war, as you have it. Saddam did brutally repress Kurds and others who were encouraged by Bush I to rebel after the first Gulf war. But his famous atrocities involving gas all occurred in the 1980s, when he was supported by the United States.
I’m where you are. A continuation of a militaristic foreign policy is exactly what the neocons have ever wanted and I don’t particularly like what I’m seeing with my lyin’ eyes.
edit – have
everalways wantedpreview is mah fren
I believe that the “gassing of the Kurds” was an incident that took place during the Iran/Iraq war. There is still much discussion about which side did that gassing. The CIA reported that the Iranians were probably responsible….Sadamm also killed many shia after King George the first told them to rise up against Saddam and that the US would protect them..They did- George didn’t..bad news for the shia.
harvard grad amy goodman comes to mind as someone who could provide some balance to the right extremists, as well as ian masters, robert scheer, dworkin from the wapo, and glenn greenwald.
now, that would be a balancing act for the krautman, bobo and kristoltag.
http://www.informationclearing…..le1148.htm
Link to an interesting piece on the gassing of the Kurds
As a former union representative, I used to be criticized for too many phone expenses.
Once a week, I would call some one who I knew disagreed with me on the union direction. I would spend two hours, at least, talking with them. More often than not, we would agree to disagree, But, it was a great opportunity to enlist someone. Eventually, it worked well. Time and patience helps.
If Amy had walked into that dinner last night Obama would have prolly been the only one not to keel over with an MI, after their bladders and bowels had emptied themselves.
From wiki:
The most infamous incident was the attack on Halabja:
I was referring to the incident in 1991 when Schwarzkopf gave permission for helicopters to fly after the insurrection
http://www.opinionjournal.com/…..=110003240
What do those neocons got except prestige, its status, and a shrinking audience? Bet they loved the eye contact and the rewarding smiles, giggles, and guffaws, the furrowed lean-ins. Look but don’t touch, and if y’all want more, well, don’t be an ingrate.
All that matters to these clowns is access.
They will be sweet until he crosses their bankrupt “philosophy,” which should be soon.
Scorpion, meet turtle. Or frog.
For some reason clicking on that link freezes my computer.
try this
After Bill Clinton, Obama is shapping up to be the finest Republican President since Ronnie Rayguns. The fact that Obama hasn’t spoken to the left speaks volumes. It’s unlikely Obama will be a transformative President but rather merely transitional. Would like to be proven wrong but the tea leaves are saying otherwise. Americans can still dream, however. It’s all they’ve got.
Believe it was the Chinese philosopher/military theortician Lao Tzu.
Lao Tzu? Guy was an idiot, obviously. ;)
So Jane, are you and your friends hosting a dinner for Obama in the next few days? Who’s on the guest list?
they will rip a democratic president, not a republican one
I don’t know.
Is Obama cunning…in playing the neo’s?
Or is he one of those..he who tries to please everyone, pleases no one?
Or does he actually share some of their ideology?
Or does he want to prove the dems are as tough on security as the chickenhawks?
Or is he counting on his personality and bipartianship to overwhelm the neo’s and congress?
All I know is he has a 56 pick-up-sticks adm so far and if he listens to them all equally we will have policies that make the Three Faces of Eve multiple personality look normal.
We will see. So far I don’t like what I see. What I see so far is a guy who wanted to be president but has no actual concrete policy ideas of his own, just a vague wish list, and is unsure of himself and thinks he needs old hands to guide him. Unfortunately most of his old hands are the same people who helped put us where we are now.
one or two good ideas — we still use ‘force protection’ which is a derivative of one of Tzu’s best ideas
BTW, did Obama agree to meet the Crazies without setting preconditions?
One thing I will say about this dinner meeting.
While almost everyone in this country wants the neo’s (who put out so much propaganda on Iraq..and on Israel) out on their asses and marginalized..Obama has dinner with them and in doing so elevates their importance.
If this was Obama being slick…it was too slick by half.