George Bush, on more than one occasion has said: "We don't torture."
We've known this is a lie, even Bush Administration appointees -- now that the election is behind "them" -- are admitting it:
"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.
And responsibility goes to the top, all the way to those with Medals of Freedom hanging from their heads:
In May 2008, Crawford ordered the war-crimes charges against Qahtani dropped but did not state publicly that the harsh interrogations were the reason. "It did shock me," Crawford said. "I was upset by it. I was embarrassed by it. If we tolerate this and allow it, then how can we object when our servicemen and women, or others in foreign service, are captured and subjected to the same techniques? How can we complain? Where is our moral authority to complain? Well, we may have lost it."
The harsh techniques used against Qahtani, she said, were approved by then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. "A lot of this happened on his watch," she said. Last month, a Senate Armed Services Committee report concluded that "Rumsfeld's authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques for use at Guantanamo Bay was a direct cause of detainee abuse there." The committee found the interrogation techniques harsh and abusive but stopped short of calling them torture.
(picture from here)
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So, it is now officially a known known that we torture, even though, in the words of both Obama and Mukasey, “that’s not the kind of country we are.”
But wait..George Tenet announced on MSM “We do not torture”. Plausable deniability that is no longer plausable equals war crimes and crimes against humanity. Forward march…to the Hague. Or frog walk down the aisles of congress for trial here in the USA.
Or just give up on the moral authority when our troops are tortured.
Word games. “We” = not us personally, “don’t” = not at this exact moment, “torture” = we have redefined that word so it only covers a primary intent to harm, whereas the primary purpose in these cases was information retrieval (to reference Terry Gilliam’s “Brazil”).
Au contraire, it is precisely the country you are, going back past the Spanish/American War, far beyond the massacre at Wounded Knee, the 3 for 5 enumeration of the constitution, even past the smallpox ridden blankets “shared” with the original inhabitants, beyond the “myth” of the first “thanksgiving” to the moment a European footstep left a mark on New World sands. How little history you actually know or registers in your consciousness. The inhabitants of the New World are residents of a Lie, living a Lie, being a Lie, existing a Lie. The Lie is THE fact of your lives. There is no other option.
Gonna get shunned for that one. ;-)
It’s no surprise either that the editor who wrote the heading for the WaPo story that finally used the T-word could not stomach using the T-word in the headline. In the online version that I read, the headline says an official admitted to “abusive” measures. Abusive? No kidding? Now that’s real reporting. In The Village’s alternate reality, “America does not torture” as Obama says, even when America does. And there are all too many Americans who will eagerly endorse that contradiction, “without batting an eye” - to quote Jeremiah Wright.
S’plain Please: “so that’s why I did not refer the case”…ie, Because it met the definition of torture? What’s that about?
OT - a list of today’s hearings (5 more nominations) is posted at oxdown.
Rumsfeld is the picture of evil, is he not? Aren’t there just some faces you’d rather never have to see again?
You could probably put most of them on a deck of cards, 52 plus two jokers. For the Hague!
Another deck for Congress, one for the Senate, another still for the Judiciary.
Jonathon Turley, constitutional scholar, raised an interesting conundrum for Obama. Now that Bush and some of his officials have admitted to torture, if Obama does not take action against perpetrators of torture, he himself becomes complicit in the crime.
Not to forget a deck for MSM owners and hired propagandists and another deck for miscellaneous neocon pricks.
Seems the confessions to capital crimes are being spewed so often one wonders what these scamps are up to. I wonder if they are inviting prosecution so that it can be appealed to a very friendly SCOTUS, and thus etch their interpretations in stone.
Morning all, Let me kind of get a handle on this - we send a couple of E-3s and E=4s to the Brig for Abu Graib but the bosses?
149 hrs & 50 min
I surely agree; he cannot ignore what he knows. Somehow, turning a blind eye will make us all complicit, I believe. Ratifiying, approving, yes, we do torture.
No Hague for anybody. Congress in 2004 gave the president all powers necessary to rescue any alleged or convicted American war criminal from the International Criminal Court’s custody.
http://www.iccnow.org/?mod=usaicc
correction, should read 2002 rather than 2004
sorta take away the “moral authority” of all these taxpayers her he are sooooo critical of Israel now doesn’t it?
Oh, that’s new isn’t it? Never happened before.
Good morning, pups. It’s MoDo and Friedman today. MoDo has a question: “Tim Geithner! Why Are Rich People So Cheap?” How does a guy on the fast track to be Treasury secretary fail to pay $43,200 in back taxes plus interest, or forget to check on the immigration status of a house cleaner? She also works in some melodrama about Sen. Clinton and Obama… The Moustache of Wisdom wonders about “Israel’s Goals In Gaza,” and says the focus for Israel and Barack Obama’s team should be on creating a clear choice for Hamas for the world to see: Are you about destroying Israel or building Gaza?
Here they are.
The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and I’ve got a selection of bagels with cream cheese this morning. Next week at this time the Obamas will be in the White House, and we will have survived the longest 8 years in the world. 6 days to go… Have a great day.
Oh Boy, Bin Laden has a new video!
Wonder why they would do that? ;)
OT According to Barnacle on the Morning Joe “99% of blogging is therapy for the blogger” HMMMMMMMMM
149 hrs & 15 min
Working on a letter to the effect:
We cannot move forward when we are anchored in the past.
The bond and weight of torture can only be lifted by sunlight.
You cannot leave such a thing behind merely by saying it is over.
You must hold it to the light and say “Never Again”.
We have had 8 years of making things go away with the words:
“We do not torture”
“We do not spy on our citizens”
“We do not wage unjust war”
“The economy is sound”
Change means action and truth,
Without acknowledging where you are, you cannot move forward.
The best you can hope for is sideways.
Surely you jest. Why do you leave out your own Norman, Angle, Saxon, Jute, Roman, maybe Scot ancestors? Maybe you think your line is inbred enough to include nothing but Picts? As to your main point, I guess if I was born a torturer, thief, whatever, and I can never be other, I might as well get over this attempt to aim toward something higher and concentrate on being really good at what I am. Fuck it, lets torture.
And that’s why Susan Crawford didn’t refer the case for prosecution? Because laws were broken by the Bush Oil Cartel? Wow. Just wow.
We need a special prosecutor in going after the Bush Regime once they’re out of office. This way, the Congress can get down to the business of Americans and we, Americans, can rejoice in both! If the Democrats start threatening prosecution now, ole Georgie will start pardoning everyone (which he might do anyway, of course).
Barnacle was run out of Boston because he plagiarized too many stories even for the Boston Herald. Shit writer, shit individual.
before this administration came public with their policies of torture all military generals said torturing our captives harms OUR soldiers
and we all knew that the methods gather LESS information, we were told by the experts who gather information
and we all knew information that IS gathered is far less actionable and wastes far too many resources then the information gathered through the other methods
and we all knew the policies of torture would create more events of terrorism because of those policies then they could possibly prevent
and we all knew they create more enemies and do not stem the tide of terrorists but facilitate the their recruitment
and we all knew the real reason for these policies would be to CREATE unrest and perpetuate the insurgency
we ALL knew, EVEN BUSH that it becomes impossilby to “win the hearts and minds” of the land you occupy when you endorse policies of torture
“we do not torture” was what he said laughingly at the very moment he WAS torturing
criminals plain and simple, sociopaths who care not one stitch about anything but what they can get away with
sickards who smirk at the prospect of creating more war, smirk at the prospect of OUR soldiers being tortured BECAUSE they did it
and sociopaths who knew as a fact their policies would turn US into the bad guy, turn the world from universal agreement afther the attack into universal enemies of our state
OBAMA MUST BRING THESE TREASONOUS SOCIOPATHS TO THE BAR OF JUSTICE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO AMERICA
kay, I endorse you for public office, when is your election I will move to maine just to vote for you
Why is it that all of these clowns endorsing torture, both in the government and in the MSM are chickenshit draft dodgers?
148 hrs & 55 min
I agree. It would be a mistake for Obama to show his cards before Jan.20. A Special Prosecutor is the way to go. I fear, however, Bush will issue blanket pardons and the need for a Special Prosecutor will be mute and the crimes will thus be legitimized.
LOL Little ole me with the big mouth who has a neocon bullseye target on her forehead? That me? LOL
I thought it was just audio?
Since MTV changed it’s operation, I thought he stopped doing videos.
I just hope the tune is catchy, this “death to America” number is getting kind of old.
Fortunately, our public diplomacy initiative is changing the
way the Middle East thinks of us.
Or not.
I think Obama (and Pelosi) are trying to be mum about this. I could be wrong, but it’s very possible they will push for outside sources to go after the Regime and are walking on eggshells right now to keep it from blowing up in their faces. That said….George in his paranoia may just pardon everyone anyway, but if he does while the Democrats are saying that they will not be spending the time going after the Regime for their crimes, George might look awfully silly pardoning people who haven’t been charged with a crime. See? It’s a shit pile right now. LOL
I am guessing it goes something like this;
“we are very unhappy with the information my minions gave up under the policies of torture, very very unhappy that you prevented attacks against america with that information gathered through your torture programs
at least I am pleased those who you subjected to “water boarding” have told me they enjoyed the bath and it was overall a worthwhile experience
please don’t do that to my minions as they will turn against me if you give them these baths and treat them so good”
I can see it now
There, fixed it for you. No Charge. ;-)
we are told obama plays some pretty good poker, all I can do is hope that is what’s going on here
conyers and whitehouse have given plenty of avenues for obama to “not do anything and let the wheels of justice spin” when in fact they wouldn’t do anything without his encouragement
at least that is what I am hoping, one more week to find out
I hope it happens when the neocons in the House & Senate are feeling really good about themselves. Once real prosecution comes and they can’t control it because it’s outside their realm, well, Americans will be rejoicing and 2010 will blow up in the neocon’s faces!
I have more faith in Barack than I do in the whole entire GOP combined. Barack is way smahtah. ;-)
Good Morning.
Here’s Washington Journal
Look! it’s Dana Perino…
7:30-8:00 REP. CHARLES BOUSTANY
R-Louisiana, 7th District
Lafayette, Lake Charles http://boustany.house.gov
Topic: Today’s House debate on a bill that expands S-CHIP, the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. Rep. Boustany is a doctor who supports S-CHIP in principle, but he opposes this bill because he thinks it expands S-CPAN too far. Many children currently eligible for the program are not even in it, he says. Rep. Boustany also submitted an amendment on the bill to the Rules Committee asking that states monitor and report the number of children in the program who seek out doctors’ help instead of going to emergency rooms for care.
8:00-8:30 SEN. BENJAMIN CARDIN
D-Maryland
http://cardin.senate.gov
Topic: U.S. Foreign Policy, including this week’s hearings for Sen. Hillary Clinton to be Secretary of State and Susan Rice to be U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.
8:30-9:00 LAWRENCE BURNS
General Motors
Research & Development Vice President www.gm.com
Topic: The future of the automobile industry, specifically looking at new technology for vehicles.
9:00-10:00 DANA PERINO White House Press Secretary
www.whitehouse.gov
Topic: Discussion on the Bush Presidency & the media.
Can’t wait to see Rumsfeld in the dock for torture — and his accomplices.
No way can we let it go.
we’re not going to have a good day, think progress is reporting obama has had dinner with right wing war monguering always wrong sociopaths like krystol and brooks
supposedly he is also going to have dinner with some left writers
the problem there is it gives the image the “right wing” journalists are reporting the truth laced with opinion of just the same weight as the “left journalists”
the sad fact is the “right wing” journalists do NOT enjoy fact backed opinion, they “make their own reality” through their writing
that is why this doesn’t make sense, man I sure hope obama’s learning curve is not as long as clintons
good morning ELLIOT!
going to panera bread, will catch up with all in a half hour or so
Hey perris!
Seriously, what were you thinking @ 4? Are actually arguing that there was some sort of original sin that started with Jamestown?
And We Don’t Torture — but we believe in torture. Even if our “best and brightest” tell us it doesn’t work, and we don’t get good information when we torture, we will hold Qahtani indefinitely because we did torture him, and he did tell us that he is what we TOLD him he was.
If we torture, and get information, the only way to prove that we don’t torture and don’t believe in torture is 1) not to prosecute; 2) not to continue to hold him based on information obtained by torture.
no way WE can let it go but it seems there are plenty of ways for obama to do it
we must keep the pressure on, he must be disabused of the notion that “moving forward” means ignoring the past
moving forward means addressing the past and obama must be made fully aware that is why we elected him
Perris, I think it’s a brilliant move by Barack to go to dinner with those vile creatures. The neocons don’t know it yet, but Barack is in control. The reich wing has zero control right now over anything and have to play nice at this point. It must be killing them!
Thus allowing the scum to rationalize in their own minds that they did the “right” thing.
unrue
because whatever information you get would pale by comparison the information you lose, in addition you have NO idea how much bad information was retrieved before the good and you have no idea if the good information would have been achieved without torture
we know as a fact the people who did the information gathering tell us they got far more information BEFORE the policies of torture were forced down our their mouths
that trumps any information that might be presented as acheived through torture
let’s hope he is as savy as you kay, if so I will feel much better
one week to find out
Even if Bush pardoned everyone under the sun, Obama and Congress could rejoin the civilised world and sign on to the International Criminal Court, who prosecute war crimes where the criminals’ country cannot or will not prosecute.
see all in a bit, out the door`
Good one, Attaturk.
Just read the source link for your pic also. Dated 2004, I see. Gee. Who knew?!
War crimes? humbug? rummy in jail sounds better. where is he, anyway… hiding behind the drapes?
Staff better make a clean sweep of all the dark corners before Obama moves in.
The right wing propaganda continues and they will say anything to make themselves feel better at this point! Of course, if an American soldier or citizen is tortured their whole philosophy on torture gets thrown out the door exposing their warped thinking.
ooooooooooooooh, you shameless shill! Bring me back something, please please please. Panera’s a good place to be.
or as the Indiana Insurance Commissioner dubbed Schenker: crudballs.
Speaking of ‘one week to find out’…
Can we all give Barack a chance and not rush him into everything we stand for during the first hour of his presidency? Yes! Let’s do that. It’s going to take time to sort through the shit pile George Bush left him, so in my mind, we just need to chill and let the man ‘do his magic’ (which is the same phrase I use with my hairdresser! She’s not a Messiah last I checked LOL). I believe some kind of justice will come. It just make take some time. Again, I could be wrong, but I’m just feeling it’s possible.
Eureka Springs posted a Call to Action at Oxdown
To the phones today!
I agree. Not sure what you thought I said, but the bottom line is IF we Don’t Believe in Torture, we cannot prosecute and we cannot continue to hold him based on information we got through torture.
(I don’t believe they’re going to let him go — which means what, they don’t like torture but they believe the information they get when they torture??? even though they’re told it isn’t any good????)
Actually what started in Jamestown is a history of very questionable actions that in reality make torture look mild in comparison.
148 hrs & 23 min
Please read James K. Loewen’s “Lies My Teacher Told Me, Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong” ISBN 0-684-81886-8
Most of what people know and base their opinions on are supported by little else than a tissue of lies, built on a morass of half truth and distortions. Very few get themselves out of what they have been taught.
What are you rambling on about?
fwiw, i’m still campaigning, and it turns out to be a pretty good idea, i think.
sitting in waiting rooms, wherever idle chit-chat rears its cute little head.
“I think he’s going to do a good job. Look at the quality of his cabinet selections, Wow! They can actually answer Senators’ questions and know what they’re talking about. I like that”
rinse, repeat, and watch the nods all around….
Wise words, those. ;->
Gee. One of my favorite sources is Jon Stewart’s teachers’ edition. heh
Oh, if only our ancestors had stayed back in jolly old England, with those of T-Bear, all would be pure. Those nice Comanches would have just asked the Apache’s to move from the southern Great Plains to the deserts of SW New Mexico, and the Apaches would have said, “Whatever you ask, just tap me with your pretty coup stick.” I won’t go on, but this stuff is a silly as Genesis, if that were to be taken literally.
Owe you a beverage. Té?
That seems to be delusional, end of discussion.
148 hr and 23, 22, 21…..
bless u, child. sanity may actually prevail in our household after all…
I’m rambling about the absurdity of your statement. It might have been less insulting if you had not made it regarding only our history, but had included your own and, perhaps, something about the less than satisfactory aspects of human nature. Or do you seriously consider the U.S. to be the worst blight that ever effected the globe.
Yep!
YES we can! and YES we have tortured…
And the question for Obi is…
Yes we will… be a nation of laws? or
Change we can believe in - become a nation of revisionists historiographers?
Go Obi! Change we can believe in!
but whose counting, eh?
Reading a book, The Wordy Shipmates by Sarah Vowell that does point out that the early invaders (read Puritans) were not such nice people. She is a wonderful writer, if you have not yet read her I suggest doing so for a lot of bloody good laughs.
I love Sarah!
Bingo on the delusional, then.
they might have avoided smallpox a little longer, which might have helped even the playing field.
dunno that of which the above is a propos. it’s just a random thot, like some others i see around here from time to time.
*pant pant pant*
Violations of treaties, beheading native americans and placing the heads on hilltops to strike fear in their hearts, annihilation of the buffalo herds to deprive indians of their food source. Raids on villages with the total annihilation of the elderly, women and children - all justifiable?
That is obscene.
148 hrs & 10 min
uh… a bit early with that…. i wuz hoping to keep breakfast down today… left the telly off…
How ’bout that Joethenot-a-reporter! eh?! I think we oughtta pair ‘em up. Just imagine. Todd better lock the barn door, i’m thinkin.
“yep”
I assume you don’t live here?
OT: Very interesting update on W’s new home….also a residence next door to W has been purchased, unknown buyer…maybe for secret service, the W office, a place to reside while big house being “fixed”…O Dear. No home crisis here…just another million dollar abode. A new John McCain, maybe.
…. and, kindly gifts of smallpox-tainted blankets to the mom and kiddies.
awwww.
Crosstimber’s view in his mirror @ 79 is 20/20, no facts are entering is world, leave it be.
Adie, I’m not defending everything in U.S. history, but anyone who thinks that we’ve been the worst possible influence on the history of mankind, is simply silly. That is particularly true of anyone living in a nation which begged us to help them fight off an obviously more evil threat as recently 69 years ago. Prior to that, I had thought his comments all fairly reasonable, but that is absurd and insulting. He needs to pull the log from his own eye.
Has the digging started yet? anyone seen Mr. C. lurking about? or is he already having seekrit servers hook farm-bred trout on him’s little hook?
Wow. Considering his aim, I’d hate to be in the same county when he gets to testing that fly-rod. DUCK!
back off
Swim’s up
fair enough.
we are an imperfect species, in all our forms.
Fellow, if you don’t know enough to know that Native Americans migrated in about the same proportions as Europeans did during the Volkervanderung, and drove other groups before them, then you need to read more.
Hi Raven. Can you mind the kids? I gotta go romping across hill & dale to an appt. with the Mr. here. I hate freeways at rush hour in snow driving surrounded by idjits. But I can do this, sigh.
P. E. A. C. E. everyone. ;->
Bite your tongue! Oh wait. Wrong Sarah. Phew. Thought maybe you had lost your mind for a second this morning, Elliott! LOL
LOL!
oops. me too. gawd i wish i could crawl back in bed and pull the covers over me dim-witted head.
oh, I should have taken the time to type out Vowell
I love Sarah Vowell!
I want to see his face again. On TV. At his trial.
That only works in the US. Let’s see what happens when one of them sets foot outside it.
Okay, so Bush and the rest of the war criminals admit what we already know. Now it’s time to bring them to justice. http://globalinvestmentwatch.com