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	<title>Comments on: Israel and Hamas Victory Conditions</title>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792492</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;All right, Macaquerman, if you can so very confidently assert that “the blockade came after the rocket fire, not before”, then I presume you know your chronology well enough to tell us precisely when you think the rocket fire began, and when the blockade began?&lt;br /&gt;
Or perhaps, if you don’t really have that data on the tip of your tongue, you would like to consider that the blockade and the violence on both sides are merely the latest manifestations of an ongoing war that dates back decades? Every piece of farm land stolen, every olive tree cut down so that a Palestinian farmer can’t benefit from it, every Jew’s only road built, every Palestinian owned building destroyed, every drop of water that Palestinians aren’t allowed to use because their water use is controlled by the Israeli’s, it all combines to form part of the Israeli campaign of economic strangulation which does, slowly, quietly, insidiously, kill Palestinians.  Because it’s all part of a long term campaign of ethnic cleansing.&lt;br /&gt;
And I ask again, if you were responsible for trying to stop this long term ethnic cleaning, what would you do? How would you react to being strangled?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All right, Macaquerman, if you can so very confidently assert that “the blockade came after the rocket fire, not before”, then I presume you know your chronology well enough to tell us precisely when you think the rocket fire began, and when the blockade began?<br />
Or perhaps, if you don’t really have that data on the tip of your tongue, you would like to consider that the blockade and the violence on both sides are merely the latest manifestations of an ongoing war that dates back decades? Every piece of farm land stolen, every olive tree cut down so that a Palestinian farmer can’t benefit from it, every Jew’s only road built, every Palestinian owned building destroyed, every drop of water that Palestinians aren’t allowed to use because their water use is controlled by the Israeli’s, it all combines to form part of the Israeli campaign of economic strangulation which does, slowly, quietly, insidiously, kill Palestinians.  Because it’s all part of a long term campaign of ethnic cleansing.<br />
And I ask again, if you were responsible for trying to stop this long term ethnic cleaning, what would you do? How would you react to being strangled?</p>
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		<title>By: jcrich53</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792418</link>
		<dc:creator>jcrich53</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792418</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In the short term, things look bleak indeed. Longer term, opportunities for Hamas to become a legitimate political force is a must. That means, of course, that they have to get of their terrorist footing. We are starting to see this with Hezbollah and its reluctance to attack northern Israel during this current crisis because of upcoming Lebanese elections. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Israel has to stop assassinating Hamas leaders, lift the embargo on Gaza and the West Bank and actively promote economic development in the Palestinian Territories. If you ever travel in the West Bank, you will surely notice the economic disparity between Palestinian towns and Israeli settlements. This “separate-but-equal” practice must be stopped. It will take considerable political courage by Israeli leaders in the face of incredible racism within elements of Israeli society and similar courage within the Palestinian leadership as well. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This will have to be jump started by external forces - an Obama or Clinton boot in the ass, so to speak. Let’s see what happens. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://globalinvestmentwatch.com/2008/10/25/west-bank-economic-crisis-poses-threat-to-peace/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Global Investment Watch&lt;/a&gt; on this.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the short term, things look bleak indeed. Longer term, opportunities for Hamas to become a legitimate political force is a must. That means, of course, that they have to get of their terrorist footing. We are starting to see this with Hezbollah and its reluctance to attack northern Israel during this current crisis because of upcoming Lebanese elections. </p>
<p>Israel has to stop assassinating Hamas leaders, lift the embargo on Gaza and the West Bank and actively promote economic development in the Palestinian Territories. If you ever travel in the West Bank, you will surely notice the economic disparity between Palestinian towns and Israeli settlements. This “separate-but-equal” practice must be stopped. It will take considerable political courage by Israeli leaders in the face of incredible racism within elements of Israeli society and similar courage within the Palestinian leadership as well. </p>
<p>This will have to be jump started by external forces &#8211; an Obama or Clinton boot in the ass, so to speak. Let’s see what happens. See <a href="http://globalinvestmentwatch.com/2008/10/25/west-bank-economic-crisis-poses-threat-to-peace/" rel="nofollow">Global Investment Watch</a> on this.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792416</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792416</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The blockade came after the rocket fire, not before. And if you attempt to justify random murder, you’re as irrational and unethical as anyone you despise.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The blockade came after the rocket fire, not before. And if you attempt to justify random murder, you’re as irrational and unethical as anyone you despise.</p>
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		<title>By: bluebutterfly</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792275</link>
		<dc:creator>bluebutterfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792275</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Nice summary.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice summary.</p>
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		<title>By: Rickbrew9x</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792171</link>
		<dc:creator>Rickbrew9x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792171</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t see the Gazans accepting a Fatah government any more than they did occupation by Israel. And a condition for winning has to include a loosening of the blockade so that the economy of Gaza can be recreated. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;M.J. Rosemberg made a very good point the other day. Hamas was willing to negotiate a ceasefire and hold to it, until the Israelis tightened the blockade almost completely, in violation of the agreement. Hamas makes and keeps deals with the Israelis. If Hamas is destroyed, the replacement is not going to be the Quisling Fatah government. It will be al Qaeda, who do not make deals with Jews or infidels. Al Qaeda, M.J. says is already in Gaza. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As for Hamas winning, consider that Abbas is finding his support in the West Bank weakening because of his lack of support for Hamas. There is an increasing possibility that at the next election, Hamas could take over the West Bank. Mubarak is also feeling political heat, with sentiment flowing towards Hamas and the Gazans. No surprise there, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood to begin with. Don’t be surprised if Mubarak has to crack down further in Egypt to keep his job. Will some young army officer find a way to displace him as Nasser did to King Farouk in 1952? The neighborhood is getting more dangerous for Israel as their best Arab allies have to distance themselves because of internal political reactions to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, I don’t see the Israelis as trusting the Gazans not to take the a cease fire and opening of the crossings, rebuild their economy, and then go back to firing missiles. The Israelis appear to have run out of the capacity to trust their enemies.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Below that it gets even more complicated and uncertain. What certainties there appear to be are all quite bad. And right now, both Hamas and Israel think they can still win the end game of this mess, so neither is willing to accept surrender or even apparent surrender. That’s what’s keeping this going now. There’s too much price already been paid, and no one is willing to abandon the sunk costs without getting something big for them. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is a classic Gordian knot, and Alexander is nowhere to be seen.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t see the Gazans accepting a Fatah government any more than they did occupation by Israel. And a condition for winning has to include a loosening of the blockade so that the economy of Gaza can be recreated. </p>
<p>M.J. Rosemberg made a very good point the other day. Hamas was willing to negotiate a ceasefire and hold to it, until the Israelis tightened the blockade almost completely, in violation of the agreement. Hamas makes and keeps deals with the Israelis. If Hamas is destroyed, the replacement is not going to be the Quisling Fatah government. It will be al Qaeda, who do not make deals with Jews or infidels. Al Qaeda, M.J. says is already in Gaza. </p>
<p>As for Hamas winning, consider that Abbas is finding his support in the West Bank weakening because of his lack of support for Hamas. There is an increasing possibility that at the next election, Hamas could take over the West Bank. Mubarak is also feeling political heat, with sentiment flowing towards Hamas and the Gazans. No surprise there, since Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood to begin with. Don’t be surprised if Mubarak has to crack down further in Egypt to keep his job. Will some young army officer find a way to displace him as Nasser did to King Farouk in 1952? The neighborhood is getting more dangerous for Israel as their best Arab allies have to distance themselves because of internal political reactions to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don’t see the Israelis as trusting the Gazans not to take the a cease fire and opening of the crossings, rebuild their economy, and then go back to firing missiles. The Israelis appear to have run out of the capacity to trust their enemies.  </p>
<p>Below that it gets even more complicated and uncertain. What certainties there appear to be are all quite bad. And right now, both Hamas and Israel think they can still win the end game of this mess, so neither is willing to accept surrender or even apparent surrender. That’s what’s keeping this going now. There’s too much price already been paid, and no one is willing to abandon the sunk costs without getting something big for them. </p>
<p>This is a classic Gordian knot, and Alexander is nowhere to be seen.</p>
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		<title>By: shootthatarrow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792100</link>
		<dc:creator>shootthatarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792100</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Gaza is the result of Israel’s creation which was raw,unbridled terrorism based/imposed colonialism. Gazans are refugees. A refugee population for which Israel has created an open air prison for called Gaza which despite Israeli lies and propaganda is under full Israeli subjugation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hamas–the legally elected government Gazans voted upon–ran afoul of Israel’s desires and intents that Gaza not break out of Israeli overt/covert political/martial overlordship. Fatah–Israel’s chosen/favored Palestinian puppet–lost the election–not because Hamas was so much better but because Fatah is so corrupt/undermined by Israel.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now Israel(and WashingtonDC which stupidly has become Israel’s pawn) has set out to wreak ruin,mayhem and lots of death on Gazans to rid Gaza of Hamas and demoralize Gazans and remind Gazans who indeed runs Gaza Prison.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One can hope the Israelis will have exposed themselves to much deserved international scorn and sanction after this brutal Israeli attack on Gaza gets a full reveal. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hamas will now only have become more radicalized and will have learned that the rules of the game are at whim of whatever Israel thinks it can inflict and get away with which appear to be anything short of outright genocide of Gazans so far. Expungement of Gaza and Gazans clearly Israel’s deeper intent and sought outcome. The Gazans are a surplus population that Israel does not need yet they stand between Israel and full Israeli colonization of Gaza. This is the deeper nut of this 21st century–surplus human populations being badly treated because they are of no perceived inherent value. See Mynamar for another example of this. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is not pretty seeing what Israel is doing to Arab Palestinians. Israel is trying to expunge Arab Palestine. Gazans are getting the full treatment  over past three weeks. Will Israel succeed? All in all it is doubtful Israel can short of Israel becoming an international pariah.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Israel is only getting away with any or all of this because WashingtonDC is stupid enough to be played by Israel for lots of money,military backing and political cover. Olmert’s derailing Condi Rice at UN via WH string pull a full illustration of how WashingtonDC has been perverted by Israel.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Israel is a throwback to 18th and 19th century European colonial era and as such faces deep set political fissures with the displaced Palestinian refugee issue and trying to expunge what remains of Arab Palestine. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Israel surely has now driven Hamas deeper into radical politics. Fatah is a spent,corrupted and bought Israeli puppet. Israel claims there is no peace because there is no authority to broker peace with. This is an Israeli lie. Israel does not want any vestige of Arab Palestine to come into full sovereign status. Israel wants Arab Palestine land. Not peace with Arab Palestinians. Claiming otherwise is simply a big lie.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Israel is going to suffer from the consequences most when this current attack on Gaza is revealed in fullness as to what Israel did to too many helpless Gazan civilians. Israel will try to place responsibility and blame on Hamas but that is a lie. Lies bring down the liar who is telling them. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;After telling too many lies too often Israel will have little credibility going forward. That is the lasting fate of telling lies and being a liar.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaza is the result of Israel’s creation which was raw,unbridled terrorism based/imposed colonialism. Gazans are refugees. A refugee population for which Israel has created an open air prison for called Gaza which despite Israeli lies and propaganda is under full Israeli subjugation.</p>
<p>Hamas–the legally elected government Gazans voted upon–ran afoul of Israel’s desires and intents that Gaza not break out of Israeli overt/covert political/martial overlordship. Fatah–Israel’s chosen/favored Palestinian puppet–lost the election–not because Hamas was so much better but because Fatah is so corrupt/undermined by Israel.</p>
<p>Now Israel(and WashingtonDC which stupidly has become Israel’s pawn) has set out to wreak ruin,mayhem and lots of death on Gazans to rid Gaza of Hamas and demoralize Gazans and remind Gazans who indeed runs Gaza Prison.</p>
<p>One can hope the Israelis will have exposed themselves to much deserved international scorn and sanction after this brutal Israeli attack on Gaza gets a full reveal. </p>
<p>Hamas will now only have become more radicalized and will have learned that the rules of the game are at whim of whatever Israel thinks it can inflict and get away with which appear to be anything short of outright genocide of Gazans so far. Expungement of Gaza and Gazans clearly Israel’s deeper intent and sought outcome. The Gazans are a surplus population that Israel does not need yet they stand between Israel and full Israeli colonization of Gaza. This is the deeper nut of this 21st century–surplus human populations being badly treated because they are of no perceived inherent value. See Mynamar for another example of this. </p>
<p>It is not pretty seeing what Israel is doing to Arab Palestinians. Israel is trying to expunge Arab Palestine. Gazans are getting the full treatment  over past three weeks. Will Israel succeed? All in all it is doubtful Israel can short of Israel becoming an international pariah.</p>
<p>Israel is only getting away with any or all of this because WashingtonDC is stupid enough to be played by Israel for lots of money,military backing and political cover. Olmert’s derailing Condi Rice at UN via WH string pull a full illustration of how WashingtonDC has been perverted by Israel.</p>
<p>Israel is a throwback to 18th and 19th century European colonial era and as such faces deep set political fissures with the displaced Palestinian refugee issue and trying to expunge what remains of Arab Palestine. </p>
<p>Israel surely has now driven Hamas deeper into radical politics. Fatah is a spent,corrupted and bought Israeli puppet. Israel claims there is no peace because there is no authority to broker peace with. This is an Israeli lie. Israel does not want any vestige of Arab Palestine to come into full sovereign status. Israel wants Arab Palestine land. Not peace with Arab Palestinians. Claiming otherwise is simply a big lie.  </p>
<p>Israel is going to suffer from the consequences most when this current attack on Gaza is revealed in fullness as to what Israel did to too many helpless Gazan civilians. Israel will try to place responsibility and blame on Hamas but that is a lie. Lies bring down the liar who is telling them. </p>
<p>After telling too many lies too often Israel will have little credibility going forward. That is the lasting fate of telling lies and being a liar.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792088</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1792088</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;LS and Macaquerman, the idea that the Israelis and Palestinians are equally at fault, or are being equally irrational here, totally ignores the issue of the blockade. The Israelis are in essence demanding that the Palestinians agree to quietly starve to death behind the walls Israel has built around them. The fact that a few Israelis have been killed by the Palestinian’s rockets is unfortunate, but given the unwillingness or incapacity of the rest of the world to stop the blockade, how else do you expect the Palestinians to react to Israel’s campaign of strangulation?  What would you do to get the blockade lifted, if you were responsible for saving the people of Gaza?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LS and Macaquerman, the idea that the Israelis and Palestinians are equally at fault, or are being equally irrational here, totally ignores the issue of the blockade. The Israelis are in essence demanding that the Palestinians agree to quietly starve to death behind the walls Israel has built around them. The fact that a few Israelis have been killed by the Palestinian’s rockets is unfortunate, but given the unwillingness or incapacity of the rest of the world to stop the blockade, how else do you expect the Palestinians to react to Israel’s campaign of strangulation?  What would you do to get the blockade lifted, if you were responsible for saving the people of Gaza?</p>
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		<title>By: karenjj2</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791977</link>
		<dc:creator>karenjj2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791977</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“As for Hamas, having tried to govern from the open and having it only set them up for mass assassination,” just adds to the incredible sadness I feel. Using “bunker buster” bombs to assassinate a man and his family because he’s defending his city is just so despicable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The 2nd monthly shipment of death from the US MIC is so big the usual contractors are farming it out:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9736369.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.alertnet.org/thenew.....736369.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;OT: Ian, I found a great explanation of the money supply in the online Chapter 37 from Ellen Brown’s book, Web of Debt, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.webofdebt.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.webofdebt.com/&lt;/a&gt;  and Chapter 1 is a great read also.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;karen&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“As for Hamas, having tried to govern from the open and having it only set them up for mass assassination,” just adds to the incredible sadness I feel. Using “bunker buster” bombs to assassinate a man and his family because he’s defending his city is just so despicable.</p>
<p>The 2nd monthly shipment of death from the US MIC is so big the usual contractors are farming it out:<br /><a href="http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9736369.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.alertnet.org/thenew&#8230;..736369.htm</a></p>
<p>OT: Ian, I found a great explanation of the money supply in the online Chapter 37 from Ellen Brown’s book, Web of Debt, at <a href="http://www.webofdebt.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.webofdebt.com/</a>  and Chapter 1 is a great read also.</p>
<p>karen</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791976</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791976</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The people of Gaza and the West Bank voted for Hamas because they could no longer stand to vote for Fatah. If None of the Above was on the ballot it would have swept to victory.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people of Gaza and the West Bank voted for Hamas because they could no longer stand to vote for Fatah. If None of the Above was on the ballot it would have swept to victory.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791972</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/israel-and-hamas-victory-conditions/#comment-1791972</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think I care. I certainly agree ENTIRELY with what you are saying. I don’t see how they can stop fighting unless the EU, Arab countries and the US all intervene together to both broker and guarantee a compromise.&lt;br /&gt;
The fighting has cost both sides nearly all of their mental health and it won’t return unless they learn to live together.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I care. I certainly agree ENTIRELY with what you are saying. I don’t see how they can stop fighting unless the EU, Arab countries and the US all intervene together to both broker and guarantee a compromise.<br />
The fighting has cost both sides nearly all of their mental health and it won’t return unless they learn to live together.</p>
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