I’m somewhat of the mind that Digby is — if Obama were to announce right now that he was going to prosecute those who engaged in torture and war crimes, it could trigger a rash of unwanted pardons before Bush left office.
But the reason that’s being given for not doing so makes little sense:
"My orientation’s going to be to move forward," Obama said. The attorney general has to stay above politics and "uphold the Constitution," Obama added, but his administration will focus on "getting things right in the future as opposed to looking at what we got wrong in the past."
Any decision to not pursue those who broke the law is in no way "above politics," it’s purely a political consideration. And if we were going to apply this principle across the board, it would have, as Ari Melber notes, rather strange implications:
No one argues against prosecuting Bernie Madoff so that the Justice Department can focus on fixing the economy, going forward. In fact, faithfully and uniformly enforcing the law is crucial to "getting things right in the future." Any deterrence produced via criminal sanction is undermined when future, potential offenders see that a law is not actually enforced. People are more likely to follow the law when they see that breaking it carries consequences. This is such a basic foundation of our criminal system, justified by the elemental rationales of deterrence and retribution, it is quite hard to imagine that so many seasoned attorneys and Washington journalists honestly believe that the best way "forward" is to undermine deterrence and the rule of law.
Obama’s appointment of Eric Holder and Leon Panetta, who have made strong statements against torture, does indeed imply that he intends to "get it right" going forward.
But it is disconcerting that, as Glenn Greenwald observes, Obama indicated yesterday he is looking for a way to set up a system outside the courts where evidence obtained by torture can be used against Guantanamo detainees.
Glenn discusses Obama’s interview with George Stephanopolous:
What he’s saying is quite clear. There are detainees who the U.S. may not be able to convict in a court of law. Why not? Because the evidence that we believe establishes their guilt was obtained by torture, and it is therefore likely inadmissible in our courts (torture-obtained evidence is inadmissible in all courts in the civilized world; one might say it’s a defining attribute of being civilized). But Obama wants to detain them anyway — even though we can’t convict them of anything in our courts of law. So before he can close Guantanamo, he wants a new, special court to be created — presumably by an act of Congress — where evidence obtained by torture (confessions and the like) can be used to justify someone’s detention and where, presumably, other safeguards are abolished. That’s what he means when he refers to "creating a process."
The synergy between right-wing fans of 24 who think torture is cool, members of the Bush administration who carried it out and the DC chattering class who mainstreamed it has created a climate where the political threat of directly dealing with the legacy of torture looms large. But 70,000 people demanding a Special Prosecutor on change.gov indicates that the political price to be paid for sweeping past abuses under the carpet might be even bigger.
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And now he’s saying Chaney was right?
Fuck.
I still think that there’s likely to be an amazing number of pardons in the next few days no matter what Obama says.
Justice almost always looks back, not forward (we’re not yet into the mind set of the movie “Minority Report.”) Using the Madoff situation to highlight the absurdity of the Obama rationale for de-emphasizing prosecutions is quite appropriate. Thanks!
I’m one of those who thinks that, unless the Obama DOJ actively obstructs justice, the current spate of lawsuits going forward will accomplish much of what we’re wanting to see without an Obama push. We’ll soon see, I suppose.
Bob in HI
I am sure Bernie learned his lesson. He has been told he is a bad boy so that now Obama needn’t worry. much.
REMEMBER LOT’S WIFE.
We do not have time to do anything else. The Clinton/Bush era is about to be over.
Yep.
But if I were Obama, I wouldn’t be yapping about prosecutions now either. I would be thinking about them and planning them, though. I doubt he is.
pardon watch is on.
will Bush trust OB to look forward or buy an insurance plan for his DOJ, torture, rendition, and wiretap co-conspirators?
Are you referring to the domestic wiretapping lawsuits? Politically speaking, prosecuting the Bush administration for illegally spying on Americans makes more sense that wading into the deep end of the national security pool. And could accomplish the same thing.
As a practical matter for prosecution in the US, you may be right. Morally, though, I’d rather see them prosecuted for torture.
Officer, you can’t give me that ticet, the incident was in the past, and we’re all looking forward.
LAMO.
All crimes are in the past.
If torture is okay, then it’s okay. Soon prison guards, police, border patrol agents and sheriffs all across America will use it.
Bush will follow Cheney’s orders on pardons. Trust and thinking are not necessary and are way too hard for the little fellow.
I don’t think its about looking “backwards” or “forwards”. Its about communicating to the rest of the world that we take torture seriously, so that we don’t leave them justification for torturing/prosecuting us.
It will hurt our already crippled standing in the world not to deal with this forcefully. And if Obama thinks he can manage this disappointment just by his “hopeful” presence alone, I’m afraid he’ll learn that he’s mistaken.
I sent this to our senators back in the day…
A New America? (by me With apologies to Katherine Lee Bates)
O Dutiful, your gracious cries
The congress chamber’s pain
For detainees and enemies
Behind the Gitmo chain
America! America! Revoked its greatest writ!
Without the right for oversight
We’ll make the charges fit!
O Dutiful, the wrongly caught
Will now no longer see
The evidence or circumstance
Used in their guilty plea
America! America!
You make Geneva thaw
Protecting those who torture foes
With retroactive law
O Dutiful, the waterboards
And deprivations long
Without their sleep, positions keep
While we recite this song
America! America! Your enemy is nigh
The evil’s done from Washington
Where politicians lie.
I also wrote an oxdown diary (well two of them actually) yesterday, one of them on this. Obama used the moving forward language 4 times. He made vague and contradictory statements about observing the rule of law but equated this with looking backwards and dwelling in the past. I think there was an oxdown diary also by Eureka Springs that noted that Biden was trumpeting this line too.
As for Cheney, again this was no mistatement on Obama’s part. He said he agreed with him twice.
This means nothing of the sort. It means the next time a Republican or pro-torture Democratic President wins the White House there will be no record of torture trials and convictions to impede them from engaging in this activity all over again.
There will be pardons…telling it is that Bush refused to discuss them at the presser.
And we will be disgusted, appalled and generally pissed off, but The Village will be able to go back to munching their cocktail wienies and all will be right with their world….
Very clever.
Absolutely. I totally agree. Obama’s really stuck between those of us who want gov’t accountability and respect for the law, and his political instincts which tell him he’s gotta do something about the economy and it better fucking work, or the Dems will lose two years from now.
Bernie stole MONEY.
Cheney, Addington, Yoo, et al. stole lives.
One matters, the other not so much…..
Totally agree with Jane on this.
Obama says…. US Government Is Above The Law.
The people say No justice = no democracy = no country.
My gut instinct on Obama was right…initially enthusiastic about Obama and set to vote for him, I grew increasingly wary of the two faces of Obama as time went on. Which was Obama, the primary face or the general face? At the last minute I decided to write in Ralph Nadar for lack of any other name.
Now that we have proved racism is mostly dead in America by electing Obama, he is going to deliver the ultimate blow to racism by proving there truly is no difference in races, one can be as corrupt as the other. Was he a trojan horse all along?
Four more years of this elite empire and no accountability should just about do it.
Been nice knowing you America, RIP.
Think Progress:
This is exactly the kind of discussion people will have until the matter is prosecuted.
My take is that this is one of BO’s “Make me do it” items. He can’t be perceived as the moving force behind it because it’d cripple him in terms of getting the basic critical policies & programs in place. But if the groundswell is big enough he’ll be able to point to it and delegate it to the AG (dear god, not Holder please!) who can slow-walk it until the ec-stim and health insurance and energy etc. get legislated, and not have to take the political hit for it.
“24” is on again, with a Hillary analogue as president, Jack Bauer “helping” an attractive female FBI agent. Cliffhanger had Jack telling the agent he would help her, but they would be doing things his way going forward.
FBI had Jack stashed in a car at one point, the male agent watching him apologized for Jack having to answer for torture, etc in Congress and presumably being tried for it – the FBI agent was thankful that Jack had protected the US. The apologists are getting good prime time reinforcement of their message – torture kept the fantasy multiple nukes from being used (except one did get used), and presumably the fantasy torture efficacy is mirrored in real life.
There was a post here last week about “24″ writers trying to get the issue framed better. So far I don’t see it, to the contrary it seems like they’re pushing the apologist agenda strongly.
Or until what Joe “knows” is proven untrue, the basis of his “knowledge” having been explored and proven to be wrong in about every way possible; factually as well as figuratively!
Except Obama’s economic plan doesn’t add up. It is too little and not structured the right way. In this, Obama’s stance on the economy and torture are very similar.
I imagine that the shitload of pardons will dump about a week from today.
I would love to see some prosecutions for Bush crimes, but everything we have learned about Obama so far argues against it. I think he’ll let those sleeping dogs lie. He is doing his best to avoid ANYTHING that goopers might cry “partisanship” about.
if obama and a democratic congress doesn’t seek justice in this matter,
we are in serious danger as a country.
desperate times.
I get the sense that this is Obama coming to grips with the reality that it under his presidency that the criminals need to be prosecuted. It’s no small thing to accept that the leaders of our nation truly are criminals. It was “easy” under Nixon because he had the good sense to resign in disgrace. But, as we all know, Ford tried to sweep the mess under the rug by issuing blanket pardons. There is, of course, a direct line from Ford’s actions and the criminal regime that’s had hold of this country for the past decade.
Obama may want to “look forward” in order to get his things done, but it’s inevitable that the mess of Bush must be dealt with. And I see Obama inching closer and closer to that reality. One point to make is they aren’t in control of the government yet, I’m sure they will soon come in possession of evidence so damning that it will shock them into doing something. Unless the Obama administration goes the route of LBJ and buries the truth for political reasons. That would end about as well as it did for LBJ.
And hey, if Obama or Congress won’t act, we’ve at least now got televised confessions of crimes that the rest of the world can use to prosecute Bush et al.
I think moving people in who are opposed to torture to head the CIA and the DoJ clearly demonstrates an intention to do the right thing going forward.
If you’re arguing that it’s not enough, and there needs to be an accountability factor, I would agree with you.
Hugh, your statement here is the best, clearest one I’ve seen regarding why there must be proper investigations of torture, illegal wiretapping of citizens, misrepresentations of facts to congress and the public which took us into the illegal, preemptive war against Iraq, legislation by Addington & Yoo, and all the other abuses of power committed by this administration.
Your last paragraph is powerful!
Thank you.
Yes, now the line is that torture is wrong despite the fact that it always works and saves the world.
Digg it.
I was never a big Obama fan during the primary season but supported him a bit reluctantly during the general. I didn’t understand why some were convinced that he was “progressive”. If he is, he hides it well. I think that he’s brilliant- but seems to be stumbling a bit out of the gate politically.
On a policy level, what he has proposed so far can be improved, but it’s not a disaster. On a political level- his eagerness to please and his willingness to “negotiate” before his whole plan is even unveiled is VERY concerning.
I don’t see enough toughness in the guy….maybe he needs a little MORE GW Clusterfuck in him.
We are either going to say to the world that the actions of this administration were not legal or we won’t. If we don’t then I guess that the rest of the world is free to use rendition.
190 hrs & 36 min
If Obama creates the impression, accurately or not, that he is wishy washy on his proposals- he’s dead meat. Washington will take him apart. Everything he proposes will be instantly watered down by congress and re-appear as unrecognizable porridge.
Thanks Loo hoo @ 17
It was really startling to me to watch Lindsay and McCain fold back then, they seemed to have represented a hope for decency back during the Abu Gharaib hearings, and when I realized it was BS I couldn’t help myself.
All the tough guys were in the background. Shrub was just dancing and talking to the puppeteers’ string pulling.
Obama, and every other politician, have got to quit calling Israel the only democracy in the Middle East. Look at what is happening before their election next month:
As a popular party with Israel’s large Arab minority, the Balad Party has been seen as a prime mover behind the nation’s domestic antiwar movement. Though officials have repeatedly warned them that “there is a limit to democracy” in Israel, this opposition party never seems to have fully learned its lesson.
“The goals of Hamas and Balad are the same: to destroy Israel,” insists the always bellicose Yisrael Beitenu chairman Avigdor Lieberman, who favors a ban on the party. The Balad Party’s stated goal is to “transform the state of Israel into a democracy for all its citizens, irrespective of national or ethnic identity,” a goal which makes it dangerously radical in a state which views its non-Jewish citizens as second-class in the best of times and traitors during most wars.
Balad was barred from the 2003 elections amid claims that it was secretly involved in terrorism, though this ban was later overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court citing insufficient evidence. Lieberman hopes to see the ban renewed in time for next month’s elections, and in a war-time Israel where censorship is rampant and antiwar protesters are traitors to the state, he may just get his wish.
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/…..party.html
BTW Bush will ask for the second $350 billion of the bailout because Obama asked him to
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01…..ng.html?hp
and the judge decided that Madoff doesn’t have to go to jail yet.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi…..n_bail.php
One law for the rich, another for the rest of us.
If Bush, Cheney and gang are not prosecuted, it will simply solidify for me the idea that the law only applies to those without money or power. All crimes are in the past. Nobody has ever been jailed for a crime they *might* commit in the future. Unless somebody intends to bring the Bush Doctrine to apply to our legal system.
They broke the law. There is nothing political about that. It would be a serious mistake to try to gloss it all over and “move forward”.
I don’t think he is watering down anything. I think the unrecognizable porridge we are already seeing are his views.
I am not a lawyer, but if Bush pardons someone, are they not free to testify without penality. On the other hand, if he doesn’t pardon a person, they may be less likely to willingly offer important testimony.
I think it would more correct to say that once someone is pardoned for something that person may be compelled to testify in that matter.
Blue Texan has a new post up: “Joe the Plumber Exposes Blatantly Pro-Hamas Israeli Reporter”
I get so tired of right wingers saying that Valerie Plame was not covert. Pres. Obama needs to help reveal lies. It is painfully obvious that 49% of the US public wants to be lied to, and the results of letting them live their lazy-brained lives has been an illegal war, torture, illegal spying, lying by EPA, gutting of OSHA, fraud in stock markets, one-sided political appointments at DOJ, … The US public has to be drug out of their own filth.
That isn’t all right with me.
We have to get the people who said torture was OK, charge them, indict them, try them, if convicted we LOCK them up. We remove them from society for society’s good.
We don’t just say ”Bygones.”
I was thinking, among others, of the on-going Al Haramain case discussed over at the Wheel House, as well as Looseheadprop’s diaries here at the Mother Ship. I think that EFF and ACLU are going to be pressing ahead with their lawsuits, and others may be in the pipeline, as well.
Bob in HI
I agree on this.
Democrats seem to have two gambits:
1. Pass a good bill in the House and then (a) watch it die in the Senate due to a filibuster (or threat thereof), or (b) cave in to Senate Blue Dogs who gut the main provisions of the bill and sneak in offensive language that make the bill worse than no bill at all, or
2. Offer a Blue-Doggy bill in the House, wait for clamor from the Left, then tweak the most offensive parts of the Blue-Dog version. (This seems to be Obama’s approach.)
Either way, we’re going to have a lot of work to do for the next 4 years.
Bob in HI
I see the abuses of power by the Bush administration as a deep, dirty wound to America.
Years ago my nephew was spending a few weeks with us. He fell from his bike and got a pavement burn on his lower arm. He was somewhat in awe of me and said nothing. Days later his older brother brought him to me and said that I needed to look at the arm. The wound had healed over on the surface, sealing the dirt and gravel inside and infection had set in with red streaks all up his arm.
The doctor had to re-open the wounds, clean out the dirt, gravel and infection, administer antibiotics, and give me a stern lecture about caring for the boy.
If the deep wounds to our country’s laws and justice system are not left open and attended properly, the poison will remain and infect our entire governmental system, later to erupt again perhaps with even more dire results.
The crimes of this administration must be lawfully dealt with as soon as possible, not have the lid closed upon them and filed away in past history.
Part of me hates defending Obama, because I truly do want his feet held to the fire, and I DO NOT believe in giving politicians the benefit of the doubt absent prior evidence of good faith. But I have to say, this “wishy-washy/not tough enough” charge is EXACTLY the same thing we heard over and over again during the campaign. Did it get him to change the way he campaigned?
No. Did his opponents frustrate themselves, unable to effectively wound him? Yes.
As to the comment about the AG, I heard it as Obama indeed seeing the need, politically — as in, looking to the health of the body politic — to move forward and not be seen as leading a witch hunt, but the AG is above such concerns and is duty bound to uphold the Constitution (now whether or not you think Holder is inclined to do this is another matter. I do know he’s made some pretty definitive statements on the subject.)
I don’t think I’m parsing that overly much. I do think Obama’s being deliberately careful and circumspect in his answer, cognizant of the fact that he’s walking through a mine field. Everyone’s always bitching about him being overly cautious; why wouldn’t he be in this situation?
I sometimes think we have a naive view of how out front or ‘honest’ these folks ever are. It would be a wonderful world if we could take everything at face value, but I just don’t think it’s reality.
Here’s my question:
Are we complicit in war crimes?
Suppose for a minute that the rest of the world that isn’t buying the Bush-Cheney Victory Lap and Bush History Revision 101 literally holds U.S. citizens responsible for torture, war crimes or aiding and abetting terrorism. What prevents any country in the world from detaining and charging Americans with aiding and abetting terrorists who committed war crimes. Didn’t George Bush, in our name, inform the entire world that anyone who feeds, clothes, finances or assist terrorists in any manner is guilty of terrorism? Haven’t we feed, clothed, honored and handsomely paid our own leaders, identified in other law abiding countries as the world’s leading terrorists?
Didn’t the Nuremberg Trials remove the cloak of legality from governments that write laws permitting acts of terrorism…Hitler’s Nazi legal advisors were tried and convicted of/for war crimes, were they not?
There is a statute of limitations on these crimes and if Obama leaves the wrongdoers twisting in the wind, he is wise not to aggressively sound off at a time when he can only talk. There are any number of junctures in the future when this matter(s) can be referred for investigation or prosecution. And especially so when the SOL protects the right to prosecute in the future. I have yet to hear any rhetoric that the SOL is about to expire on these crimes. Although that is an interesting issue.
Oh dear, dear Jane I do so wish I could share your take:
“Obama’s appointment of Eric Holder and Leon Panetta, who have made strong statements against torture, does indeed imply that he intends to “get it right” going forward.”
I don’t know much about Eric Holder but I do know Panetta a whole lot better from his early career embrace of republican values through the end of his career in the House to present time. The conventional wisdom among my skeptical fellows, the former congressman, cum Clinton appointee is not really the brightest politician nor particularly loyal to the democratic party.
He was a tool of PG&E during a decade long grass roots battle to stop a supertanker port on Monterey bay. His recovery from that debacle was the one smart strategy I’ve ever observed him embrace when he embraced legislation making Monterey Bay a marine sanctuary. Never mind that it would have passed with or without his support.
His appointment by Obama to head CIA was met with shock by this ole brat and other district environmental activists who know what a light weight compromiser and egotiscal operative that dot his record of public service.
I’m just saying (and sadly) while he isn’t the brightest bulb in the new administration I will concede he is a loyal advocate of issues that are less bi-partisan then they appear. The only question is one never really knows which party he is, at heart, representing at any given time.
Obama sure seems able to avoid responsibility, so far. So the first $350 billion is lost in the financial ether to be followed by another $350 billion, yet not on Obamas watch! Congress is promising more oversight this time. Yeh, pull the other one.
I really don’t think the country wants a string of trials a la the English, French and Russian revolutions, where folks literally lost their heads over political disagreements. Let Obama use the political process to attempt to get his way, and let the current Administration retire…
Wasn’t Sadam taken out because he had the capability and desire to reconstitute his WMD programs?
So where do you draw the line at letting potential crimes not be investigated and possibly charged and punished? Only charge and punish poor people? Murder? Assault and rapes? What about embezzlement? Thievery only by porr people but not be rich? Single acts of espionage or conspiracies?
Where do YOU draw the line?
Or is Law and Order just the title of a TV show and nothing more?
During the Korean conflict I was stationed in Germany. I visited Dachau, a concentration camp and purchased an illustrated booklet in three languages with pictures of piles of bodies and other atrocities. The place was cleaned up but you smelled something in the chamber with the gas jets in the ceiling. As a Jew, I resented and felt superior to the Germans who I thought never should have let the Holocaust happen. Then came Vietnam. I joined a silent vigil and learned how difficult it was for me to keep my mouth shut for thirty minutes, protested here and there but nothing serious, nothing like the kids getting beat up in Chicago.
After that I changed my mind about the Germans. I saw how easy it was for a nation, me, to get led astray. What do you do when the choice is being a concentration camp guard or a concentration camp inmate? Just about everyone on this blog seems, like me, to have sat out the Bush years. Oh we made bitter comments, but that was it. Unless we manage to change things, it will happen again. Sure the guilty should be punished, but what if they’re not? What do we do? Do we say this too shall pass and hunker down hoping no one comes knocking on our door?
That’s funny?
Bully. You know, it’s like possible, even likely, that POTUS Carter’s amnesty for draft-dodgers put the venom into the wingers’ cold, black hearts, turning them to stone. You put their Big Shots in jail, you make unjust martyrs of them.
This wish for prosecution and punishment has 1865 ’s scent wafting around it.
So, yeah, I’d like to hear a ‘malice toward none, charity for all’ approach – but our new POTUS must condemn what he says he won’t condone, and he must name names.
No.
If Obama doesn’t want Holder to investigate, then the least they can do is open files, so that those who might try to investigate & prosecute will have the needed information.