It’ll hold too, now that we are sending Joe the Plumber over to Israel.

http://www.recordonline.com/ap…..N/90107036

I thought William the Bloody said that Israel would be victorious? What has Israel won?

Is it Nazi like to want to be free and make choices, laws etc to have the power to live independently? Israel controls Palestine they control food and medicine coming in they invade whenever they want. Man has always rebelled when they found themselves powerless.

Absolutely their adversaries know when they have been defeated just ask hezbollah.
306 hrs & 23 min

Wingnut Welfare what is he getting paid?

I want numbers on how much Israel spent on this victory?

Hope he can get a passport this year.
306 hrs & 20 min

That’s the most bizarre thing ever.

The Israelis are clearly winning on the battlefield, but because the Europeans stabbed them in the back may have to cease firing.

More appropriate would be how much the US paid for this “victory”.
306 hrs & 16 min

The MSM on MSNBC are talking about how well planed the invasion is and how it won’t end up like Lebanon.
Umm has Hamas stopped fighting?

True. I think all foreign aid should be cut we can’t help or harm others until we take care of ourselves first.

Joe’s grasp of the nuance and history of the conflict is likely to be unrivaled by his journalistic colleagues.

Exactly. Der Dolchstoßlegende!

Israel has invaded Palestine a few times over the years declared victory and then the fighting starts again what makes this time different?

We’ll just add it to the national debt. Everybody’s grandkids will pay for it.

The stab-in-the-back legend (German: Dolchstoßlegende (help·info), literally “Dagger stab legend”) refers to a social myth theory popular in Germany in the period after World War I through World War II. It attributed Germany’s defeat to a number of domestic factors. Most notably, the theory proclaimed that the public had failed to respond to its “patriotic calling” at the most crucial of times and some had even intentionally “sabotaged the war effort.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchstosslegende

Specken de Deutsche (I hope I spelled it right)

You forgot the snark tag ! I feel so much better now that Joe is going to tell us all about the ME. No doubt he will also work on a peace plan, repair the water problem and announce that Israelis and Palestinians actually love each other.

Now here is one guy who is likely to get lit up most ricki tick. When he hears “Incoming!!” he thinks he’s got email.

Sprechen sie.

Nein.

I really like Kucinich’s request of the administration as to the legality of this per US laws
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/….._0106.html
306 hrs & 6 min

See “Spitting Image” by Jerry Lembke

I’m certain Joe could tackle all of those problems with the same deftness the Bush/Cheney junta has employed.

We can only hope Joe gets lit up on camera live. I’m hoping for a sling shot stone to the forehead.

Nein also.

This last conflict shows me that israelis learned a lot from Hitler. They are acting like him now.

The assault on Gaza was not the public relations victory Israel’s dimwitted political leadership thought it would be. So maybe this is for real or maybe the Israelis simply want some time to redeploy for something else.

CSPAN 3 at Israeli Ambassador to the US Salai Meridor on trotting out the absurd line about how the Palestinians forced Israel into killing them. I think there may be a certain amount of confusion on the Israeli side because their messages are contradicting each other.

For this reason, it is characteristic of groups within which a given narrative circulates to react very negatively to claims or demonstrations of non-factuality; an example would be the expressions of outrage by police officers who are told that adulteration of Halloween treats by strangers is extremely rare, if it has occurred at all.[7][9] or the vehement responses[10] of Vietnam veterans to the Jerry Lembke’s 1998 study (”The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam”) of 495 news articles on returning veterans that showed only 32 incidents of any type of animosity or antagonism towards veterans, and that the only reported incidents of spitting were directed by supporters of veterans, at protestors. However, the narrative contains a truth for its tellers which is distinct from historical factuality: “The persistence of spat-upon Vietnam veteran stories suggests that they continue to fill a need in American culture. The image of spat-upon veterans is the icon through which many people remember the loss of the war, the centerpiece of a betrayal narrative that understands the war to have been lost because of treason on the home front.” [11] Newspaper columnist Bob Greene received numerous responses to his solicitation of stories from veterans who claimed to have been spit upon (though none, even from anonymous sources, claiming to have done any spitting).[12]

How about Dennis for SoS?

Let’s not parrot the wingnuts by calling anyone Hitler. There’s only 1. It’s really beyond silly.

You don’t wanna see that kinda shit.

The assault on Gaza was not the public relations victory Israel’s dimwitted political leadership thought it would be.

Come on, you know it doesn’t matter what Israel does it will “inflame the muslim street” and the world will follow. And even if you don’t know it the “dimwitted political leadership” does.

Glenn Greenwald’s post today is how Mukasey’s FBI and DOJ continue to go after Thomas Tamm who blew the whistle on Bush’s illegal NSA spying program while giving a pass to all the criminals in the Bush Administration and the Congress who set up and signed off on it.

The argument has been made that mistreatment of Vietnam veterans has been a myth created by the country’s inability to cope with defeat. The United States, the most powerful country in the world, had lost the war in Vietnam; nobody wanted to believe it. The country’s ego had been dealt a blow that would prove to be difficult to overcome; America needed a scapegoat, and the anti-war protestors proved to be the perfect victim. Jerry Lee Lembke, a former Vietnam veteran, explains in his book, The Spitting Image, that “the stories of abused veterans provide an alibi for the country, a way for America to explain why it lost the war. The larger narrative woven by these stories is that America lost, not because it was beaten by an underdeveloped nation of Asians, but because our mission was sold-out on the home front. We were defeated by the enemy within, not the enemy abroad”(Lembke, 184). After the country’s defeat, a long healing process began. While the blame for our involvement in Vietnam should have been placed on the government; instead, the attention was turned toward the “victim”, the returning veteran. Lembke bolsters this argument, “assessing blame for those wrongs was part of the process by which the country put the war behind it and moved on. But the laying of blame for the loss of the war and the mistreatment of veterans at the feet of the anti-war movement was misdirected”(185).

Lembke, who seems to be the authority on the “myth argument”, contends that the image of the spat-upon veteran gained momentum in the early 1990’s when the Gulf War was starting to unfold. As a way to insure support for the Gulf War veterans, the Bush administration used the image of the spat-upon veteran as a way to bolster support for the war: “Bush’s strategy was to turn the tables on his opponents by using their anti-war position against them. Implicit in this strategy, previously employed by the Nixon administration in the closing years of the Vietnam War, was the assumption that peace could best be achieved through strength: those who were against the war in Vietnam were undermining the strength of America and thus prolonging the war.

http://www.providence.edu/poli…..tpaper.htm

Is that the same as calling the Israeli’s Nazi’s because that happens here all the time.

I love the “it doesn’t matter what we do they’ll hate us so let’s drop the bombs” argument.

That would start WW3

That’s equally idiotic.

Not condoning Israel’s policy towards the Palestinians but the frequent comparisons to Germany are usually inaccurate and needlessly inflammatory. We need to expand our frame of reference.

Please cool off the rhetoric, dear friends.

It is difficult enough to get the Israelis and Hamas to the bargaining table — each with the wounds of the moment and the power of god on their side.

My view is that both Hamas and the Israelis have rushed to violence because they are not certain of the response they will get from an Obama administration that is actually tied to reality and a resolution of this conflict. Each side hopes to gain advantage by their actions and posturing: Israel by it’s over-reaction and outrageously indiscriminate bombing; Hamas by its refusal to come to the table, insistence on rocketing Israel; both sides by their outrageous invective towards one another.

Please see the progressive Jewish lobby, JStreet.org, for actions you can take to call for an immediate cease fire.

But how would it effect his taxes?

I’m not making that argument, I’m just saying the idea that someone in Israel thought this would be a public relations coup is wrong.

Come on, you know it doesn’t matter what Israel does it will “inflame the muslim street”

Yes, killing 670 Palestinians and starving 1.5 million more to score some points in the upcoming Israeli elections really is a pretty flimsy excuse to get inflamed about, isn’t it?

I don’t want anything to happen to this bozo. He’s a prime candidate for something tragic because he thinks he knows what he’s getting himself into and he has no clue.

I’m not making that argument, I’m just saying the idea that someone in Israel thought this would be a public relations coup is wrong.

Then you haven’t been paying attention. This has been discussed in the Israeli press and even showed up briefly in a discussion on that bastion of Establishment respectability the Charlie Rose show.

Good point Joe thinks he would be hurt by Obamas tax plan when he would not be. His judgement about who won the war therefore is iffy at best.

So Joe the plumber, campaign surrogate, author, narcisstic reporter is going to Israel. Do they make helmets big enough for him to wear.
305 hrs & 52 min

I think those that compare the Israelis to the Nazis aren’t breaking the narrative down far enough. I compare some of the Israeli’s actions with some of the methods the Nazis used, which are well documented. I don’t think we can compare the Israeli government and people with the Nazi government and the German people.

Like the way our press discussed the Iraq war?

yea, that’s what I said wasn’t it?

I might be wrong but I think you and Raven are at cross-purposes here. I believe he is referring to the perception outside Israel and you are talking about perceptions inside Israel.

I might go so far as to say their leaders have often exhibited a bunker mentality.

Back to the quarry.

Happens all the time. You are right of course.

the idea that someone in Israel thought this would be a public relations coup is wrong.

prior to dec 27 (when the attack on gaza began), kadima was running in the high 20’s in the polls compared with likud which was running in the low 30’s (labor in the low teens). current polling has kadima at 29 and likud at 12 and labor at 19 (source: wikipedia).

Well, obviously Israel is full of bullcrap and always has been.

never mind my comment @56 then

Am I reading those figures right? Likud down from low 30’s to 12? WTF. I would have thought Likud’s numbers would go up.

Damn. Gotta get outta here.

the current gov is kadima.

Well, obviously the United States Australia Great Britain Israel everybody is full of bullcrap and always has been.
apologies

Like the way our press discussed the Iraq war?

It has often been stated that the spectrum of discussion in our press is a lot narrower than that of other countries. This is especially true of Israel-Palestine where the Israeli press even while being pretty militant still contains other views while in this country we get not much more than regurgitation and repetition of Israeli government talking points.

But you are right about Iraq also. There was no segment of our media that said, Hey, wait a second. Pretty much everyone jumped on board and tried to be more jingoistic than their competitors. Doubts like those in the McClatchy articles or expressed by Scott Ritter were isolated and largely drowned out.

Gotcha

There are varying degrees of bullcrap, but murderous apartheid theocracies get the prize.

La Figa has a post about Dr Gupta and his “Sicko” comments I thought you might be interested.

wait. i want the marines ta be there. no truce. no truce.

Exactly! The more apt comparision would be to the (attempted) subjugation and eradication of indigenous populations throughout the world, e.g., the United States and South Africa. Tony Karon has written some very good stuff on the comparison to South Africa, e.g., http://tonykaron.com/2007/06/0…..ed-israel/

New. Jane. Upstairs!
We’re Having An Inaugural Party!

I note you quote Mark Regev. Do you guys get to see him on TV?

His spouting of what is obviously propaganda, made up of pre-decided themes and statements repeated over and over, is nauseating and surely must be a negative for Israel at the moment.

Over the forty people killed sheltering in a school I heard his various interviews as the story developed. The first time it was put to him, he had clearly not heard of it. He spluttered, caught his breath then, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, said it must be because Hamas gunmen were firing from in the compound. Within about three hours he was claiming he now had evidence of just that! He essentially claimed the UN people who questioned said there were no gunmen were liars.

If Mark Regev now said the Sun was rising in the East I’d instinctively look West.

By the way is the US press whingeing as much as the Brits at the Israelis banning ALL foreign journalists from Gaza since about a month ago?

1,880 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Firepup Freedom Fighters:

This attack on Palestine was not a calculated Likud attempt at a public relations coup…this murderous attack was ordered in the corporate HQ in the United States White House as part of the final scorched earth strategy of the American oil oligarchy to leave the new administration and the people of the United States with a mess that can’t be fixed with the remainin’ resources in the economy and treasury.

Bankruptcy and chaos are the end goals of the fascist ruling class and the weaker we are economically and militarily, the less able we and the rest of the world will be to stand up to what remains of the corporate monolith. This is why the battle over democratic control of the American security aparatus is so crucial and is bein fought out before Obama can establish his organizational base in the bureauracy and consolidate political control of events.

The Israel problem (note that I didn’t say the “Palestinian” problem) will never be solved until the structure of the Israeli political state is changed. What has happened to Palestine and the Palestinians over the last 64 years must be addressed at the same time that Iraq War crimes are tried in the Hague.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE WILL BE NO REDMPTION FOR ANY OF US UNTIL WE GET THIS RIGHT!!

It’s good to see your sorry Norwegian tail here, I was startin to worry.

Me, I just don’t give a flying crap. His fate is totally irrelevant to me. Step in an alligator-filled swamp and you get nailed by alligators. Go figure.

One reaps what one sows, one takes one’s chances, etc.

Boo hoo.

Citizen Raven:

Thanx for the kick in the ass, makes me feel right back at home.

No?

Who gives a fig? Ain’t no skin off MY nose.

I believe one should suck up the shit when one jumps into it.

Citizen Raven:

I almost didn’t get back from Jamaica though…was snokelin’ with my youngest when I got a warnin shot accross the chest…been doin x-rays,blood work and soon an echocardiagram…seems I got a bit of cardiomegaly…I always knew I had a “big heart” but this is a bit more literal than I would like.

Who you talkin to?

You and Secretariat.
Take it slow.

Damn it, I was worried about something like that. I saw a dude eat it on a motorcycle coming down the hill from redground in Negril (1972). Never wanted to go to the ER down there.

(((((citizen norske)))))

Goebbels

http://jordanmaxwell.com/artic…..rtrait.jpg

and Regev…

http://yenisafak.com.tr/resim/…..340eby.jpg

Separated at birth?

Citizen Raven:

I didn’t go ta the ER down there…I jest sucked it up for the last two days and had my beautiful daughters and Mrs. Norske ingest massive doses of medicinal Appleton’s 12 year old for the old man…got back inta my family doc on Monday andhad ‘im scamblin’ around ever since. I had a physical 6 months ago and he didn’t pick up the enlargement ‘cuz he didn’t do a chest x-ray and my ekg was rock solid…he’s sweatin’ bullets now but I’ll be ok.

If someone other than Hamas is supervising the rockets or the borders, then this is not equivalent to dealing with the Nazis. The weakness of international organizations and norms enabled the Nazis then and enables other genocidal maniacs now.

Citizen 4jkb4ia:

I would like you to be clear about who you think are the “genocidal maniacs” in this particular situation.

I’m whicha babe.

Sorry I didn’t see your comment until long after the fact. Thanks for the link.

If you’re one of the poor bastards being killed, it makes little difference.
However, sitting on my ass far away and comfortable, I get the sense that just about everyone is so flaming tired of the endlessness and pointlessness. I don’t think that the Israelis think that they’re fighting for victory or that the Palestinians trying to live in Gaza think that they’re dying for any great purpose.
The great majority of both sides want to settle. The great majority of the groups who have backed one side or the other want to settle it. Fanatics, fools, and fundaments centered in Tehran and Brooklyn who will never find peace or believe in it won’t to able to intrigue the deaths of teenagers and grandmothers for much longer.

There are still Palestinians living in Gaza, so the Israelis haven’t won yet. On the other hand, Hamas is still firing off rockets into Israel, so if the shooting stops now, then they have won. ‘Won’ is such a flexible word, and yet at the same time so rigidly defined.. Seeing how Middle East tribes have been killing each other for millenia now, for reasons which now amount simply to “Tradition, Tradition!”, it just seems real unlikely that anything now is going to get them to stop. Both sides know they’re right and the other side is comprised of inhuman monsters. As long as both sides keep killing off anyone who tries to stop the killing, it will never end. It’s hard to be too self-righteous about it, though – about the only difference between the ME and the rest of the world is time span. We all do the same dumb thing, only usually on a smaller scale or for shorter time spans. Maybe it’s a question of available space?