Is that after years of unmitigated failure, pushing the same policies are still lucrative — and completely without risk — to Bill Kristol:
An Israeli success in Gaza would be a victory in the war on terror — and in the broader struggle for the future of the Middle East. Hamas is only one manifestation of the rise, over the past few decades, of a terror-friendly and almost death-cult-like form of Islamic extremism. The combination of such terror movements with a terror-sponsoring and nuclear-weapons-seeking Iranian state (aided by its sidekick Syria) has produced a new kind of threat to Israel.
But not just to Israel. To everyone in the Middle East — very much including Muslims — who aren’t interested in living under the sway of extremist regimes. And to any nation, like the United States, that is a target of Islamic terror. So there are sound reasons why the United States — whether led by George W. Bush or Barack Obama — will stand with Israel as it fights.
Once again the calculus is this:
– Random indiscriminate car bomb or ill-aimed mortar — the most awful tragedy ever (from Gaza, rocket attacks killed 15 people over 8 years).
– Carpet bombing killing hundreds — AWESOME!
There’s never a question of proportionality as long as a Muslim is on the receiving end of Bill Kristol’s notion of justice.
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Well, you know, killing Moslems doesn’t count, for neocons. Killing Jews and other civilized people, now that’s a crime.
This was supposed to be snark, but it’s too sickening even for that. We count the number of U.S. deaths in Iraq, but we don’t even try to keep count of the Iraqis killed. What does it matter to this neocon administration? Pres. Bush sneers when he calls terrorists “killers,” apparently all the deaths he has caused by his war of choice don’t make him a killer.
There’s an undercurrent of racism here that must be confronted.
Bob back in HI
and waiting for jet lag to strike
can anybody figure out how exactly Israel figures on ”Winning” this engagement ???
what exactly would a victory look like ???
didn’t Israel learn anything in Lebennon kast summer ???
I would say that Israel is tilting at windmills, but windmills don’t win just by existing …
Siun got attention at Think Progress.
FireDogLake’s Siun writes, “The use of cluster bombs — which have a large footprint when initially dropped and then remain a threat for decades — in a location like the Gaza Strip which is so packed with people is horrifying.” (FDL notes that video footage seems to confirm the use of cluster bombs.)
http://www.opednews.com/populu…..nkid=79251
Israel can never get rid of Palestine, can’t do it, won’t happen so they will never “win”. The Palestine freedom fighters will continue to fight for their rights, for their freedom and for their lands. The only thing Israel can do is create more and more dissention in the ME by their genocidal policies.
Israel has nothing going for it other than the sale of a few oranges grown on lands stolen from the Palestinians. They have no oil, little water (other than that stolen from the Palestinians) and no industry other than the manufacture of war machinery. Without continual wars they would have horrendous unemployment and all those people that profess to love Israel would be looking to move to other countries. Can’t have that, no sir, it is a lot cheaper to send them oodles of money, guns, bombs and other killing machinery to keep the crazies in Israel. We can see what happens when the buggers are allowed to get entrenched over here by watching aipac and all the other likud lobbying organizations and how much they dominate our policies.
My only hope is that the Israelis will self destruct, they will a go step too far, and the civilized world will help them on their way. Blockade and bomb are the only message that they will get.
Carpet bombing? Really?
If they carpet bombed “one of the most populated places on earth per square mile” it would kill 500 people?
This is a war that will never end.If you succeed in wiping out Hamas ,another group will take over.
Kristol ,that clown,can’t see beyond the end of his nose!
“Blockade and bomb are the only message that they will get.”
Yea, that’ll do it.
Death toll is well over 500 at this point
I am afraid they will go away. They have too much money pouring in from around the world. The Palestinians will continue to struggle some will try to collaborate with Israel and the madness will go on. If the US gov changes its policy more in line with the EU and stops flooding Israel and the ME with weapons so that it can be demilitarized – hardly gonna happen – some sort of peace can exist if a reasonable two state or a secualr one state solution is reached. The jews will not allow a secular state since they want a zionist one, there are too many non jews for a democracy to work for them so they need (or feel they need) to ethnically cleanse Israel while expanding her territory. They’re hoping that the Palestinians will just up and move in some sort of “buy out” or mass resettlement and stop fighting for their “land”.
It’s pretty clear that the “state of Israel” was a land grab from the get go. The Brits and the US didn’t expect the arabs to be so upity and remain controllable under arab oligarchs who were made rich by the West’s oil deals with them.
The MIC has been partying like it’s 1999 because they need to sell all those weapons systems and when there is peace no one buys. And of course they convince every despot that they need to be armed to the teeth to protect their regimes. So the US gov “lends/gives” the money which goes directly to the MIC and the weapons to the ME. Your tax dollars at work keeping the world safe.
Let’s see how Obi folds to the MIC’s narratives. So far it appears that he’s a player and that does not bode well. Perhaps the economic crash will cause the people to riot and demand butter over guns or will they sit home and watch the revolution on the flat screens?
And carpet bombing would kill thousands.
This is winning..this is the victory..A must read article; one of the best I have seen.
The Politics of An Israeli Extermination Campaign:
Backers, Apologists and Arms Suppliers
By James Petras
Israel’s sustained and comprehensive bombing campaign of every aspect of governance, civic institutions and society is directed toward destroying civilized life in Gaza. Israel’s totalitarian vision is driven by the practice of a permanent purge of Arab Palestine informed by Zionism, an ethno-racist ideology, promulgated by the Jewish state and justified, enforced and pursued by its organized backers in the United States.
The facts of Israeli extermination have become known: In the first six days of round the clock terror bombing of major and minor populations centers, the Jewish State has murdered and seriously maimed over 2,500 people, mostly dismembered and burned in the open ovens of missile fire. Scores of children and women have been slaughtered as well as defenseless civilians and officials.
What the Israeli Jewish politicians and military planners designate as “Hamas” is the entire social service network, the entire government and the vast majority of economic activity, embracing almost the entire 1.5 million imprisoned residents of Gaza.
Israel’s ‘target’ list thus involves the ‘total population’, using the totality of its non-nuclear weaponry and for an unlimited time period (until the ‘bitter end’ according to the Israeli Prime Minister). Israel’s defense ministry spokesman has emphatically reiterated the Jewish’s state’s totalitarian war concept emphasizing the targeting of civilians: “Hamas has used ostensibly civilian operations as a cover for military activities. Anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target.”
Moving directly from its totalitarian vision to its military blueprint to the savaging of Palestinian population centers, the Jewish state destroyed the principle university with over 18,000 students (mostly women), mosques, pharmacies, electrical and water lines, power stations, fishing villages, fishing boats and the little fishing port that provided a meager supply of fish for the starving population. They destroyed roads, transport facilities, food warehouses, science buildings, small factories, shops and apartments. They destroyed a women’s dormitory at the university. In the words of the Israel leader: “…because everything is connected to everything…” it is necessary to destroy each and every facet of life, which allows humans to exist with some dignity and independence.
http://www.informationclearing…..e21613.htm
As you have never grown up, or lived in a country, that is occupied by another I take what you say as one who does not know. Your only experience of death and killing is as part of the great war machinery that murdered thousands upon thousands of innocents in Vietnam.
Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have any intention of living side by side with the other.
The hatred between the two is so deep there is no chance they will ever peacefully coexist .
So that means I don’t know what carpet bombing is?
Morning all! It’s seems like a good time to lurk but.. Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to destroy Israel. They won the election because they also provide necessary care that citizens expect from their government. (schools, medicare care, etc) Unless another group provides that care, they will continue to exist. IMO, Israel’s approach will only strengthen their position.
Although your point is interesting, Vietnam is not the topic.
Not necessarily but it does mean that you have no bloody clue about how the innocents feel. As part of a grand war machinery that went to Vietnam and murdered thousands in the name of “freedom and democracy” I do feel that you have a rather slanted view of things.
And I do believe that you have no clue about what carpet bombing does. It is not “targeted” it is mass murder.
Good morning, pups. It’s [sigh] Bloody Billy, Cohen and Krugman today. I was so hoping that the new year would see the end of Kristol… Today Bloody Billy is beating his chest over “Why Israel Fights.” He declares that an Israeli success in Gaza would be a victory in the war on terror — and in the broader struggle for the future of the Middle East. If there is blood to be spilled, Billy’s the guy who wants to spill it… He’s unspeakable. Mr. Cohen gives us the “Dangers of the Penn.” He says Sean Penn’s journalistic trip to Cuba shows that a certain part of the Euro-American left cannot free itself of Castro worship. Prof. Krugman writes about “Fighting Off Depression,” and says we shouldn’t mince words: This looks an awful lot like the beginning of a second Great Depression. Will we “act swiftly and boldly” enough to stop that from happening?
Here they are.
The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and the biscuits are out of the oven. Back to regular 5-day work weeks today… I could get used to those 4-day weekends! 15 days until the grownups are in charge and probably 5 years or so until I can have nothing but weekend. I hope that will be during the beginning of a second successful Obama administration. Have a great day.
But it is the same problem A massively armed nation trying to occupy and subdue another nation without thought to the human cost and without figuring out that it will not work as no matter how long it takes the occupied nation will never, ever, stop fighting for their freedom.
Also you can substitute Iraq for Vietnam…… same thing.
So basically Kristol is saying this latest Israeli killing field is just an orchestrated play to ’show’ Americans that George Bush is the ‘peacemaker’? Spit.
Pretty confused this morning aren’t you?
Uh, no
Doesn’t make sense to you? I just was sorry to see Kristol on my screen first thing this morning…Things can only get better. Good Morning.
As of right now, George Bush believes he’s the most beloved American president of all time and Israel believes it’s correct in every action it takes against innocent people.
Maddening!!!!!!!
David Sanger is opining wisely on Israel on WJ. /s
Morning, here’s the WJ schedule:
7:35-8:30 GAIL RUSSELL CHADDOCK
Christian Science Monitor
Congressional Correspondent http://www.csmonitor.com
DAVID DRUCKER
Roll Call
Staff Writer http://www.rollcall.com
DL: 111th Congress Begins This Week
Topic: Key issues in the new 111th Congress, which begins this week, who’s who in the Congress, & how it will work with a Democratic President.
8:30-8:55 Newspaper Articles/Phones/
8:55 – HOTLINE – John Mercurio
9:00 – 9:30 AMBASSADOR JEREMY ISSACHAROFF
Deputy Mission Chief
Embassy of Israel
Washington, D.C.
DL: Conflict in Gaza
TOPIC: Israeli Military ground offensive in Gaza. The timing of this attack and its impact on
Israel, Palestinian Terrority, Gaza and Middle East
9:30-10:00 AARON LORENZO
BNA News
Financial Services Reporter
http://www.bna.com
DL: 2009 Economic Outlook
Topic: Each January, the Bureau of National Affairs (an independent research organization) talks to leading economists and puts out its’ economic outlook for the year. Guest will discuss what the current state of the economy means for monetary policy for the incoming administration (including the proposed economic stimulus package).
If you have not yet read it I recommend Frank Rich in yesterday’s NYT
Just how big are the cluster bombs they are using has America invented small ones for use in cities? You can still have unexploded bombs lying around if they are using even small cluster bombs.
The big thing is they are bombing crowed cities they know they are going to hit civilians and they don’t care.
Isn’t that a war crime?
OT
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..refer=home
I wonder how much the market will drop when the world financial press finds out the GOP and Blue Dogs plan on stopping the stimulus package?
it’s all a fucking war crime, on both sides.
I wonder how long before Lebanon launches rockets?
Here’s Scarecrow’s take on it, be careful it’s a twolf graphic.
And here’s Eli’s, the video is pretty funny
Cool lets get some people to the Hague.
Of course if the White House sold Israel those bombs and knew ahead of time that Israel was planning an invasion?
Well we would have another charge to nail Bush on. I wonder how long Hugh’s list has to get before the Dems do something?
Or will they wait until the Hague moves first? That would sure be embarrassing for American justice if our President can’t go to Europe without getting arrested and we have not even filed one charge.
Ok just how does Israel win without killing every member of Hamas and possibly every Palestinian? I’ve seen this before 6 months a year there will be more attacks on Israel from Palestine.
Israel spends how much on air strikes bombs etc compared to how much Hamas spends?
Thanks, a little humour goes a long way these days.
Scarecrow, and others, are absolutely correct. Congress has been AWOL during the entire bush reign however, with the newly minted Congress, hopefully we will have a group of critters that are more responsive to the wishes of the people. And with the revelations of the voting irregularities now reaching the MSM we can hope for more and more politicians elected by and for the people.
If not war crimes war profiteering is certainly a charge we can level against Darth. Just how many of our troops have been electrocuted by Darth’s KBR?
This is the song for the Palestinians.
Bush’s dad profited from the Carlyle Group they are suppose to be invested in all kinds of defense industries and Bush has been giving out lots of no bid contracts.
yea, you are funny as hell
Crooked politicians engaged in war profiteering that resulted in the deaths of solders getting the blame for why we lost Iraq would be a very easy sell even the 30%ers could get behind.
not all the people there are guilty of war crimes.
Oh, spit! Schedule changed since I checked earlier……there was supposed to be someone on from the Center for Public Integrity. Since there doesn’t seem to be much of that commodity running around loose in DC these days, guess that speaker becomes irrelevant. :-(
“terrorists”, as defined by the bushlites, cannot be charged with war crimes per se. The Israelis can as they are, according to the UN although vetoed by bushy, committing war crimes.
I bet we have observers checking out just how effective our new bombs are but are they army or arms company experts either way Bush can’t say he was unaware of what was going on.
The his dad’s Carlyle Group has a vested interest in knowing how they perform.
Nobody invests millions without researching and continuing to research the investment.
Buy and forget as a stock buying strategy won’t pass the laugh test Bush knows what is going on.
mornign selise
hearing today
CSPAN 2 at 2 pm et
Morning all, Cold here in CO current temp 7 degrees.Brrr
364 hrs & 11 min
Forgot the snark notation this morning, you did. *g*
yeah would’ve been
8:30am – Bill Buzenberg, Center for Public Integrity, Executive Director
maybe he still show up?
Then Bush is covering up war crimes by stopping the investigation. Again another thing for Hugh’s list again how long does the list have to get before the Dems do something?
I’m waiting for Obama lets hope he does not veto another UN investigation.
After all if the WH did know then a lot of Neocon trash gets flushed and the Right loses their *cough* brain trust of MSM experts.
Two weeks and a day…How do we hurry?
Politically its a win for Obama his enemies go to jail and it will scare the crap out of the rest of the GOP.
How many times do they have to hear we were lied into the war? What makes you think the 30s would pay attention?
attaturk – there seems to be an issue with your use of the term “carpet bombing.” i have no fracking clue when it’s correct to use that term, but here’s what wikipedia says:
from this, and especially from the pictures in the entry, it does seem wrong to use that term for what the israelis are doing (unless something has changed overnight i don’t know about?). i’d ask raven but i don’t think it would go over very well right now.
anyway, would you consider taking out the word “carpet” in your post? thanks.
If you don’t count the day we are in and don’t count the day it happens. . .call it 13 days and a wake-up. (A “hook” for the war monger squid from florida”
Not sure how to make that happen. The main clock is in the Naval Observatory where Cheney lives, *g*
364 hrs & 5 Min
That was my only point. But being a baby-killer what the fuck do I know?
who called you a baby killer?
thank you! that sounds like one i don’t want to miss.
for some reason, i thought congress didn’t start until tomorrow. hadn’t even looked for hearings since before xmas. yeah, major slacker here….
must do a couple of chores and get some coffee, but will take a look for other hearings scheduled for this week and make a list this morning if no one beats me too it.
ooops
364 hrs divided by 24 = 15 days + a couple of hrs
364 hrs & 2 min
To war crimes no but to war profiteering by KBR Darth’s firm they electrocuted our troops in showers they built on the cheap!
If the 30%ers don’t get behind us on that then they hate the troops.
Then we take away the military from the GOP.
I want Congressional hearings and Perp walks! If the GOP wants to defend war profiteers then there Cred is gone!
Only the Neocons and Rush will back them then! Lots of military bases in the South the 30%ers risk losing their last stronghold.
Ooooops….please don’t let him reset it. We need a backup.
ok if i ignore the baby-killer part?
….
that’s exactly what i thought – that you were objecting to something you saw as inaccurate. just wasn’t up to asking and risking the verbal meat grinder before coffee, so next best thing… i checked with wikipedia.
The article in this link contains a quote from Abu Bilal, commander of Islamic Jihad’s forces in the Rafah Refugee Camp in southern Gaza:
“We can’t do anything (to hurt the Israelis) but fire the rockets and hope they enter Gaza,” he said. “We are praying for the tanks to come so we can show them new things. We have made many preparations for the coming battle and all of our fighters wait for the chance to kill them.”
The source for this quote is The Guardian.
Here’s another link I provide only for contrast and comparison. In the second link, Hamas and Islamic Jihad discuss the cease fire on December 3rd. “Two weeks are left for the end of the truce, by then the truce’s future will be determined,” they say.
In fact, The Guardian’s interview already demonstrated that the truce’s future was predetermined.
The rockets were fired at Israel in order to provoke an Israeli attack upon the Gaza Strip. The source is an interview by The Guardian of a leader in Gaza. They were praying for an Israeli attack, and cared nothing for the human suffering such an attack would bring.
Clearly these people have no intention of negotiating in good faith with Israel or with abiding by any cease fire terms. This is strong evidence in support of the various Israeli positions, and it comes from a source that cannot be as easily dismissed as Fox News.
raven – you still here?
Blitzkrieg,…..they learned well from Hitler and the Nazis
sort of
So you’re a baby killer, whatever. In another thread T-Bear told me not to “walk down any dark passage by yourself.”
If they can’t attack your words, they attack you. It’s as true on the left as it is on the right of the political spectrum. But we all know what it means, which is simply that when they can’t win the debate based on the facts, they resort to personal attacks.
I’d love to see some of these people address the points I made in post #67, but it probably won’t happen, though I’ve made the chances slightly larger with this subtle goading.
If they can’t take a joke, fuck em.
thanks.
any way we could start the new year fresh? i know we disagree on a lot, and i don’t expect that to change. but i hate like hell having the arguments devolve into personal attacks and was wondering if there was a way around that?
maybe i’m an idiot for asking. always was extra stupid before coffee.
No, just keep calmly pointing out the facts.
There isn’t really any way to stop it, as I said it occurs on the left as well as the right. Besides, this is war, so it isn’t so shocking that some will resort to ad-hominem attacks.
But there certainly are facts in dispute here. Many of you say that the Israeli attack was unjustified, that the rockets were fired during the cease fire only in reponse to Israel closing the Gaza Strip, and that Hamas had negotiated in good faith with Israel. I think I’ve presented strong evidence to the contrary.
I didn’t make a personal attack. I pointed out an error and got that horseshit twice.
oh, i didn’t mean today… today is golden.
I make no promises I can’t keep.
lol. well, gotta admire that.
let’s just leave it. shouldn’t have brought it up…. probably a breach of fdl rules or something too.
rules, in a knife fight?
(Butch Cassidy)
an apt description..
Well, if there aint’ going to be any rules, let’s get the fight started. Someone count. 1,2,3 go.
oh, wait!
shit. fighting is just what i was trying to avoid. better get some of that coffee quick.
It is neither a cliche or a generalization to say that Kristol is ALWAYS wrong, is a poor writer, and lastly doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground.
No response yet to the facts contained in post #67.
Can’t say I’m too surprised, easier for Israel’s opponents to point at images of dead children, as if this is something that doesn’t normally happen in war.
Of course the fact that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been literally praying for an Israeli attack is precisely the reason why Israel cannot stop the rocket attacks without overwhelming (i.e. disproportionate) force. The leadership in Gaza, duly elected by the people of Gaza, have opted to prepare Gaza’s civilian centers as battlegrounds and have deliberately goaded Israel into an attack. The Israeli’s, instead of walking in as if they were police officers arresting a burglar are instead forced to use disproportionate force against the prepared positions. No wonder that people like me condemn Gaza and support Israel. Those dead children in Gaza, that is precisely the thing for which the militants have prayed.
If Israel is able to overwhelmingly defeat Gaza, there is a chance that the bloodshed can end and real negotiations can take place, similar to the way that Germany and Japan were brought to heel. If on the other hand well-meaning Western liberals are able to blunt the Israeli attacks, then Hamas and Islamic Jihad will declare victory and prepare for the next round, and Western liberals will therefore ironically and unintentionally have blood on their hands. Kind of funny when you think about it, in a very unfunny sort of way.
Israelis and Palestinians will fight to the death. They will never get along now.
Kristol using Bush’s GWoT to justify Israels war crimes is despicable.
Seems to me like the ideal way for Israel to “win” this is to simply back off and claim victory.