For a long time progressive and conservatives alike have been reading the tea leaves trying to figure out what Obama's priorities are. Is he a hidden progressive or is he a conservative in sheep's clothing, or does he mean what he says about being a post-partisan figure?
Chalk another one up for "believing people when they tell you who they are". Politico:
Obama strategists say he wants to get 80 or more votes in the 100-member Senate, and the emphasis on tax cuts is a way to defuse conservative criticism and enlist Republican support.
In order to get those 80 votes, Obama has pre-compromised his stimulus bill, which will define the first year of his administration more than anything else, loading it up with 310 billion of tax cuts, making up 40% of the total. (I will also note that he and his team seem to have flunked negotiation 101, because you don't pre-compromise if you know how to negotiate, you come out with the most liberal bill possible, even if that's not what you want, so you can bargain towards the bill you want. This bill will be watered down even further from it's already pre-compromised state).
Of course Obama doesn't need 80 votes. He probably doesn't even need 60, as a stimulus bill is a spending bill it could be done under reconciliation, in which case you could get it through with 51 votes. But even at 60, that would mean Obama would need to get all of 2 Republicans to vote with him, not 22. He's sitting at over 70% approval ratings, with as much political capital as he'll probably ever have during his presidency and he's compromising already?
What that should tell you is that what matters to Barack Obama most is not effective policy, it is not ends, it is consensus. Obama wants everyone to play nice together and wants everyone onside, and if that means he has to give away the farm, he will do so, because to him putting through an effective stimulus bill is less important than keeping Republicans happy and being able to say that his bill had "broad bipartisan support".
None of that will matter when the stimulus bill doesn't actually work well enough to kick the US out of its economic doldrums, mind you. That's what Obama is forgetting, it's not whether you pass policies in a bipartisan fashion that matters, it's whether those policies work. The key Bush initiaties had plenty of bipartisan support, the Republicans got their butts kicked anyway because Bush's policies didn't work.
Obama told everyone this is who he was, that he agreed with Reagan's critique of liberalism, and that the most important thing to him was making sure everyone worked together nicely in Washington. He meant it. Guess primary voters should have listened to what he said, not how well he said it.
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not his fucking farm to give away.
not that that will stop him.
obama’s idea of bipartisanship is not my idea of pragmatism or getting shit done.
One lesson Obama obviously failed to learn from the last eight years is how to claim “broad bi-partisan support” even when it’s total BullSh*t.
If nothing else, Little Boots would claim the bi-partisan support with only Short Ride on his side.
OMG, did I just hear Chris Mathews say, “…the top spook in the country”. Please tell me I didn’t! Sometimes the man lisps & mumbles and I can’t understand him.
Postpartisan is just a new way to say bipartisan which is a socially acceptable way of saying capitulating pansy.
He’s talking about Panetta. Intelligence folks are known as spooks.
Did I just call Obama a capitulating pansy? Oh well then, I guess I beat the rush.
We’re gonna hafta put out a list showing who all the monikers belong to. *g*
I think the deal is not 80 votes or 65 votes, but he doesn’t want them being obstructionists even if they can actually do anything. He’s a kumbaya dude.
What remains to be seen is what he does when these middlin policies get us nowhere fast.
Oh. Okay. For a minute there I thought he was being a jerk. LOL
I’m beginning to fear that Mr. Obama is not going to be very successful with his new puppy, if he treats it anything like he’s treating the Republicans.
They should not get their treat until they learn to sit.
Oopsie. My #10 is in response to SouthernDragon at #6.
Oh, you’re right about his being a jerk alright.
I don’t get this meme regarding bipartisanship, that somehow civil political harmony is what we all voted for.
It’d be hard to even imagine how the last 8 years could have possibly been more bipartisan. The Democrats and Republicans came together overwhelmingly to pass legislation that the White House wanted, and on White House terms as a matter of practice.
People voted for CHANGE™, not a continuation of an 8 year policy where there’s no real debate, reform, or reinstitution of public-service duty.
Fixed it for ya.
Nothing says bipartisanship like Mitch McConnell, does it? What we are likely to see, in fact already are seeing are nominees and policies that simply aren’t up to the problems we are facing.
I would disagree though that this is how Obama portrayed himself in his campaign. Yes, he did mention bipartisanship but he did not run on it. His two main slogans “Change we can believe in” and “Yes, we can!” are very much not calls for bipartisanship but for action and a rejection of the failed Republican agenda.
And in the meantime he ought to be spreading out some newspapers on the floor.
Why can’t we all just get along?
And only on the Rethug side of the aisle. Let ‘em shit in their own nest.
Let us all remember that bi-partisanship is what got us into the Iraq war.
-G
Boring.
Perfectly stated.
Is this possibly an issue of tactics versus strategy? I mean, this is a tactical analysis - what has Obama done and how has he done it? But strategically, possibly the goal is more than just “consensus,” but “healing.” Possibly Obama doesn’t see any way for his administration to be successful if the Beltway remains as partisan as it has become under the Coke-Addict in Chief.
Just tossin’ this out there because I don’t pretend to be any great analyst of D.C. culture, but it just strikes me that we’re trying to work backwards from tactics to strategic direction, but a number of different strategies can all have the same tactical implementation. Particularly this early on.
Amen. When it comes to this Republican Party, I am a Dalek:
What number Doctor are we on now?
Amen.
My solution is taking it to the streets. I can’t think of anything else to do. We’ve raised money, we’ve elected more (evidently not all better) Democrats, and still we have this appeasement bullshit going on.
It depends on how you count them, I guess.
Actually Doctor #11 was just announced yesterday.
(I may not be an expert analyst of D.C. politics, but I have my strong suits…)
Well, at this point, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, and the rest of the Republicans on the Hill have shown absolutely no inclination to get along and play nice and work toward ‘consensus’ or ‘healing.’
So why should Obama allow them to set the agenda and the terms when the election was a total repudiation of their agenda?
What’s all this fuss? You knew in your heart that this was coming ever since Obama catapulted the FISA capitulation.
And just what are you going to do when you “take it to the streets”?
Tom Baker was the best, bar none, imo.
now might be a good time to re-read obama’s two 2005 diaries at daily kos (on the roberts scotus confirmation). this is from the first one:
I loved him with K-9
Bipartisanship, circa 1996.
You’re over reacting. He just wants to pick up a few Republicans. It’s a way of identifying which of them can be persuaded and which can’t. Generally, I would guess that the GOP plantation caucus won’t want to play, but certain GOPers from the Northeast and other spots might.
Impeach him!
Ok, first I am not feeling healed here so much as slammed and ignored.
Second, he has nominated for nearly every major position Establishment clowns who didn’t get it right back in the Clinton years and who prepared the ground for just about all of the excesses that occurred under Bush.
Third, his support of the FISA Amendments Act, the $700 billion bailout, his nominations, and his silence on the Israeli bombing and killing in Gaza are things Obama has done, and they don’t indicate a new direction for the country but rather a return to an older and heavily flawed one.
So will he be as bad as Bush? No. Will he be successful? Also no.
I’m HOPING its because he’s a complete pragmatist, and is extending an olive branch of some sort. Of course, my FEAR is that he’s naive and as Ian says, failing to negotiate properly. Like I said, I’m no expert. On the other hand, a lot of people have underestimated Obama, some of whom are now working for him.
Naive, sheeeet.
Last week or the previous week a psychoanalyst contributed a great diary to Oxdown. I apologize I did’nt commit her name to memory, and I’ve been unable to retrieve the diary over my crappy dial-up, but it defintely bears reading.
To parpharase (poorly) the anaylst correlated Obama’s growing up in the absence of the father who abandoned him with Obama’s obvious need to seek out and seek approval from powerful patriarchical authority figures, such as Rick Warren. (She may also have cited Eric Holder as an example, but that may only be my speculation.)
Her hypothesis seems quite sound, though of course without confirmation from Obama (which I don’t expect), we’ll never know.
Should the hypothesis be correct, one can’t help but wonder how things would be different should the young Obama have had access to enough therapy to allow him to become conscious of the unmet need, and hence be able to make other choices.
Bottom line: the lack of several thousand dollars worth of therapy may cost billions spent for Obama to purchase the approval required for 80 Senators’ votes.
obama doesn’t strike me as naive, at least not politically. in that realm, i think he is very, very smart. more likely, it seems to me that his natural policy preferences are more in line with the republicans than with us.
Should a bullfrog have wings he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped.
Obama obviously learned nothing about movement conservatives in his years in the senate. How dumb can one man be?
Yea, he’s one dumb motherfucker because he doesn’t follow the lead of the Lake!
I think this criticism is a bit premature.
Before we condemn Obama’s economic package, we might want to wait until the wrapping is off.
Before we condemn Obama’s method, we might want to wait and how it goes.
Some of this criticism is so shrill it is damn near laughable.
This is a good characterization of us. The way we feel this way is because we want solutions that work not unanimity on a sinking ship. In rejecting this, Obama is embracing failure. If as a Constitutional scholar (how funny that seems), he can’t see through John Roberts facile but ideologically driven jurisprudence or the complete and utter failure of George Bush which isn’t some theoretical debating point but one that is sending millions of Americans into poverty and joblessness, then he is not simply accepting his own failure in advance he is embracing it.
I know next to nothing about political machinations that run around the Hill like so much diarrhea. What I would assume though, is you put on a happy face, say all is well and on schedule. You do not reveal your final negotiation stance before talking to the opposition like Obama, Hoyer and Reid have done. Christ on a cross, what dip shits!
When will Obama realize the force behind his Presidency and use his intellect and speaking ability on the Bully Pulpit. If he goes down the middle of the road all we will have is an intelligent President getting nothing done. We had that with Carter. Where’d that lead?
I have no idea what that means.
In response to Hugh @ 38:
Yes, I was disappointed in FISA and the swindle. I was also disappointed with my Senator, Amy Klobuchar’s vote of FISA. I joined others in complaining vigorously to her office (and in person when I ran into her in Barnes & Noble), and at the next FISA vote she switched. But was that a change of heart, or did she merely observe that the bill did not need her to pass? I don’t know. That’s part of what I mean about not being an expert.
Likewise Obama, I don’t know entirely why he would stay silent on Gaza (unless it is because he is not yet President and wants to avoid climbing aboard Bush’s train-wreck.) I have to admit, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt right now, and hoping that he has some plan that I don’t know about.
It seems rather reckless to be calling for the impeachment of a President who has not yet even served a day in office, as Raven did at 37.
I concede that he is drawing from Washington insiders, and seems completely uninterested in agitating the Ruling Aristocracy in D.C., even to the point of making nice with Lieberman rather than having him run out of the caucus. However, there WERE no progressives left in the presidential race after Kucinich bowed out, so what do you want? Tree-shaking, system-threatening progressives are not available in the White House, so we have to deal with who we have, a pragmatist. Getting mad at him for not being Kucinich seems pointless. Giving him a chance to, I dunno, actually BE president for a day before excoriating his service seems at least reasonable.
yes. exactly.
How dare you!
I guess one of the backstage folks will have to find it. The list of diaries doesn’t go back very far. The “Read More” link just refreshes the current list. Noticed that before.
It was a joke reflecting what I think of all this screaming and bitching. It’s my job.
You are not alone.
Well, every village needs an idiot, so I volunteered.
I can’t believe some of these comments. Has everyone forgotten that one of Obama’s main campaign promises was tax cuts for middle and lower class taxpayers. So many people are busy parsing every word ever spoken by his nominees and nose counting to make sure he has enough Vegans in his cabinet and here he is fulfilling a campaign pledge and it’s called capitulation, give me a break already.
We’ll all go down together.
What, he has no vegans? I’m outraged and I’m boycotting the inaugural.
-G
No, he’s a DMF because he doesn’t know that movement conservatives are opposed to anything he wants to do and will never compromise. You don’t have to be at FDL to understand that.
We got our eye on you.
i’m sorry, i don’t understand how this 80 vote thing is pragmatism. could you please explain it real slow like for me? i think i must have a mental block.
Nah, I thought that as well the other day but if you click the “read More” link at the bottom of the list of 20 most recent diaries, what it does is put all the diaries mixed in with Ari’s posts with the most recent at the top. Then you have to go to the bottom of the page, hit “previous entries” and then just keep going until you reach the diary you want.
A lot of brute force needed but eventually you get to the one you want.
How many Friedman Units should we give PEBO while the economy is already dropping at a rate unseen since WWII and nowhere near bottom?
A DMF?
Too funny!
Come on, you are kidding, right?
Are you unaware that the economy is entirely different from the one PEBO campaigned on? That the U.S. is not only in a liquidity trap, it is also in the classical paradox of thrift. Any tax cuts that households or business get will be saved, whereas what the economy needs is spending. Tax cuts are completely nuts in this economy.
My comment is in response to Raven, who used the word.
Is it just possible he may be introducing something new and confusing to them? Like, say, offering big tax cuts for 80 votes and if they won’t play nice, give them little tax cuts for 60 votes. It would be fun to watch heads explode.
You will never get the people at the Lake who dislike Obama to stop criticizing him for everything. We have to look forward to at least 4 years of this carping - get used to it.
A lot of brute force indeed. Holy smokes. Thanks.
those tax cuts were supposed to be balanced by tax increases to make the entire package revenue neutral. that’s not what i’m hearing now with a “stimulus” of $300 billion. am i misunderstanding?
How many Friedmman Units? He hasn’t even been innaugurated! Cripes!
the next 6 months will be critical. it’s irresponsible not to be quiet for 6 months if we want to give him a chance
So, how many Freidman Units after the inauguration?
However do you expect to have an impact on the contents of the package unless you speak up as soon as you hear about what might be in it? Unwrapped, it is whole and complete, and without amendment. The time then is passed for having an effect on how it looks when first unwrapped.
Don’t underestimate the effect of this blog, and others, and our capability to make change to things as they happen. Waiting to see the final product deprives us of our earned right to shape it.
We still have the right to public assembly, right? Peaceful protests is what i had in mind.
Well shrill is what I do so well. I look at what’s needed to fix the economy and reform the banking system and then I look at what Obama is proposing. I just don’t see the two coming together.
Again we have his actions to date. His support for the FISA Amendments Act, the $700 billion Paulson bailout, his contrasting treatment of Jeremiah Wright and Rick Warren, the make up of his financial team with characters like Rubin, Summers, Geithner, Schapiro, and Gensler, his retention of Robert Gates, his hedging on what a pullout from Iraq would mean, his silence over Israel’s attacks on Gaza, the size and makeup of his stimulus plan, his choice of Holder for AG to clean up the DOJ, etc. We have more than enough to begin our assessment of Obama and his Presidency. We don’t have to wait for it to crash and burn before we talk about it crashing and burning. We certainly didn’t wait for Bush’s final disaster to evaluate his performance.
Yea, and where I come from calling someone stupid is just as bad as calling them a dumb motherfucker.
On the bright side, you won’t have to worry about Bush style Kool-Aid cultists cheering on every stupid thing with starry eyes.
-G
I mean to say not “if” but “when” they don’t place nice….
Next on the agenda…?
Just wonderin.
I sense that Hugh may be compiling a new list!
-G
Why sing kumbaya with the same ***-holes who, with 7 years in the majority, ran this country into the ground and made mockery of the term “bipartisan?”
Elected to lead, then lead us out of this mess (the real one, not beltway fantasy)!
So, previously Democrats posed as an opposition party before ultimately capitulating to Republicans. Now, they skip the posing and capitulate immediately. Change I can believe in.
Well, they say truth is a defense. Most people called DMF really aren’t, whereas many people called stupid really are. Wasn’t aware it had become politically incorrect to call someone out when he’s evidenced stupidy.
And 17 pages down, I think I found the diary Dr Kirk was looking for.
Valiant soldiers in the War of Ideas.
I’m thinking of FDR telling people, “Now make me do it,” in regard to the big works projects etc.
I want to push him to do major things so that we’ll get some relief.
The Boy Who Cried Wolf, also known as The Shepherd Boy and the Wolf, is a fable attributed to Aesop (210 in Perry’s numbering system[1]). The protagonist of the fable is a bored shepherd boy who entertained himself by calling out “wolf”. Nearby villagers who came to his rescue found that the alarms were false and that they had wasted their time. When the boy was actually confronted by a wolf, the villagers did not believe his cries for help and the wolf ate the flock, and the boy himself.
Wonderfully clear and concise statement.
That is really stupid
I think you’re right. I was only a day away. *g* Thanks. What a task. There’s got to be an easier way.
Last spring I was damn near run off this site by suggesting Obama had clay feet.
So, now, when he proposes things I might not agree with fully, I am not surprised and or shocked.
That being said, I find that it is legitimate at this point to voice concerns, but to condemn him and his policies with the vehemence that is daily occurring here, is a bit much.
You know, Obama has clay feet, but not cloven hoofs.
Is Obama giving tax cuts to the rich? No?
So who is getting these tax cuts? Working americans? Are some getting “tax cuts” that aren’t paying any taxes but payroll taxes? Yes?
Is Obama redistributing wealth and doing it in a way that will make it damned tough for goopers to complain? Yes?
Let’s make sure that we have all the details…
It is a matter of great indifference to me whether we send Joe Six Pack $1,000 or give him an immediate cut in his witholding.
If the “tax cut” premise gives goopers some cover to vote for the thing- why not?
Digg it.
Thanks.
I don’t think we need a revenue nuetral solution right now. Unfortunately, we need MUCH BIGGER DEFICITS.
Had a troll call me stupid the other day. Mods got to him before I did.
Burris segment with Jane is coming up on msnbc after the commercial.
From the post:
Assuming you don’t mean they should’ve voted for Hillary instead? First of all, McInsane would be Prez-Elect right now and second, even if some miracle happened and she won, a cabinet filled with Howard Wolfson, Mark Penn, Terri McAuliffe, James Carville, etc wouldn’t exactly be inspiring very much confidence IMO.
Thanks for digging this up selise
BHO:
We’ve seen how that turned out, haven’t we?
Stare Decisis Destructis
Yea, I enjoyed being told I didn’t know what the fuck carpet bombing was and had no idea what it was like having random shit fall out of the sky on me.
Mere sucking up by Democrats won’t motivate Republicans to vote for anything. They have nothing to gain from helping Democrats appear effective. Their return to power hinges on creating roadblocks for the Democratic agenda. You don’t have to take my word for it, just wait and see.
LOL. If I have the time and resources, I will.
Burn ‘im, didja?
Jane’s up on Shuster.
Jane’s up on msnbc.
She’s “Muckraker of the Day.”
Ha, they made sure they noted because I participated in the slaughter of the Vietnamese my understanding of carpet bombing was more limited. What was I going to do, it’s a regular morning poster. I didn’t bite.
Tastes just like chicken…
Lady Jane’s appearances on the teebee almost makes me want to get cable. Almost.
Seems just last week Barack was getting a lot of flack for suggesting that we need to deficit-spend a lot right now. I’d like to see more of the details as well.
You are a much better person than I. I googled: oxdown, Obama, and psychoanalysis, and the oxdown diary came up number one. I find google is better and faster to find most old posts than fdl’s search engine which doesn’t seem to find even something I know has to be there.
Jane injects race jus like Bobby Rush
If the goal is to stop some goopers from screaming like stuffed pigs and from makin a general nuisance of themselves, well that ain’ta gonna happen. If the goal was to give some cover for some moderate goopers who want to go along but need a little help- well then that’s OK with me as long as it doesn’t jeopardize the impact of the bill…
The vigorous intellectual back and forth with passion is why I read this blog. Intense sometimes but with respect.
Personally, I find the criticism incisive and on point.
Well, the “80-vote thing” may be a ruse, since it didn’t come from Obama directly but from a “strategist.” Or maybe Obama plans to divide the Republican “movement conservatives,” (whatever that means anymore) from other portions of the Republican party, and is signaling this by saying “I expect to peel almost half of you away from the other half.”
I don’t know. What I do know is that it still seems rather early to be giving up on the Obama administration. Particularly as we have absolutely no alternative.
As the father of a gay daughter, I was very disappointed in his pick of Rick Warren. As a civil libertarian I was disgusted with his FISA vote. As someone with a lick of sense, I thought supporting the “Bailout” was foolish. As a worker, I recognize when the political class has circled the wagons in its own defense, at the expense of everyone else. And as a contractor without any contracts right now, I share most people’s anxieties about the economy.
But after eight years of Bush, I am trying to remain hopeful that a Constitutional Law professor, upon taking office, may take steps to re-establish the Rule of Law, habeas corpus, close Gitmo, and get the U.S. out of Iraq. With my fingers crossed in that regard, I am not going to throw my hands up in disgust with Obama before he even takes office. How many Friedman Units should we give him? I’m willing to give him two, how’s that? I’m willing to judge him a year from now and see whether I think he’s steering things in the right direction.
Maybe that’s naive of me. But on the other hand, there’s not a whole heckuvalot I can do about it anyway (aside from pestering senators I meet in bookstores), so there’s no point in stressing about it anyway.
That ain’t what the tigers tell me. But they want fish sauce on ‘em so what do they know.
Safe bet it’ll be posted here within a couple hours. Frickin’ Comcast gets too much of my money for basic cable and internet already.
Yeah Jane.
In the face of depression, deficits truly don’t matter, or to be more precise not much.
The only Rs left are movement conservatives, and they will not vote for anything PEBO wants, no matter what.
Tigers are always right. At least, I don’t argue with them.
BrightHouse here wants a shitload of dough for cable. Ain’t worth it.
They don’t listen nohow.
Every Republican in Congress is a movement conservative? I bet that’s not the case…
Choi Oi
Nước chấm
Hey, did you know John Steinbeck went on a PBR mission and wrote about it? I picked up a book of his writings called America and the Americans and it has several articles he wrote while in the Delta.
Time for litter box detail and then feeding time. bbl.
That’s exactly what Obama said.
I also try to refrain from dressing like a giant rib-eye and taunting them…
There are at least three moderate gooper senators left- and probably a few more who are from states won by Obama and who may find it in their interest to appear to be reasonable…the house shouldn’t be much of an issue.
I’ll have to look that up. It’s a wonder he didn’t get his ass shot off. Charlie liked shootin’ at PBRs. Nowhere to hide on that thing.
The only ones I’ve heard excluded from the list are Snowe & Collins. But the overstatement is irrelevant as the ones who might not be are ignored (at best) or excoriated and intimidated (more likely) by the MCs.
His son was a grunt in the 9th.
Specter is a moderate- hell he may be a dem before long if goopers keep threatening to primary him.
Specter only speaks moderate. He votes with the rest of them.
I have no objection to the back and forth. I do object to the CONSTANT drumbeat. Some here have criticized every single appointment that Obama has made and apparently would not be satisfied with anyone unless they got to choose them. He is NOT president yet. All I have ever asked is that he at least be given a chance. If they can do better then by all means run.
Alexander, Collins, Grassley, Lugar, McCain, Snowe and Specter are not movement conservatives.
Iowa, Nevada, NH, North Carolina, Ohio, and Florida all voted Obama and have at least one gooper senator.
Tax cutting is a legitimate economic tool, certainly justified under the correct economic circumstances. Proposing a tax cut at this time you call “pre compromising”, presumably a negative judgment. Smart political maneuvering uses tactics generally referred to as “co opting”, which can be a good thing.
I don’t agree with your analysis that Obama has made a poor tactical decision here. In this economic environment is a tax cut a bad thing? Wouldn’t it be smarter to have a tax cut that was promised in the general election, then negotiate with the Republicans (and Krugman) about the details.
I think it’s a great political move, getting in front of the Republicans at a time when a tax cut is something that actually makes sense. During the election Obama took the issue of national defense from the Republicans; looks like he may do the same with taxes, and the Republicans know it and fear it.
How do they vote? As I recall from the campaign, McCain was 90%+ with W. I think it doesn’t matter what you call ‘em if they always vote with the MCs. And they did in the past 8 years.
Shaheen defeated Sununu in NH. So she’s already included in the D column.
Ya couldn’t show that from their votes as all but Snowe have voted pretty much the MC line across the board (with an occasional individual vote on rare topics such as Grassley trying to take on corruption)
Oh. My. God. Hugh is Shrill!!!
From Brad De Long’s The History of the Shrill:
It is now time to recognize that it is also impolite to criticize the Obama Administration, especially if one has a history of being right as Hugh has.
I now will intone the forbidden verses which consecrate an aspirant into the Occult and Hermetic Order of the Shrill (not having done this before I hope it works):
By the power vested in me by Joseph Stiglitz, Paul R. Krugman, Nouriel Roubini and through the invocation of the ideas of Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek, Lord Acton, John Stuart Mill, and all the other friends of liberty, I hereby enlist Brother Hugh to The Ranks of the Shrill.
Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Hugh R’lyeh wagn’nagl fhtagn! Aaaaiiiiii!!!!
Check, door gunner.
Worth repeating.
See eCahnomics comment at #66.
Repeating my 66
Yes- but Judd Gregg is still in office isn’t he?
i agree. just not deficits created by tax cuts.
Heh. I owe you 2 drinks: one for beating me and one for pimping me. *g*
Is it OK, to critique Obama’s critics?
Righto. Forgot about him.
That’s a pretty good argument- although the statement seems a bit too sweeping and general…the issue might be phrased:
“What portion of any tax cuts to middle income americans would be spent?”
The answer is neither “all” nor “None” I would suspect.
Didn’t like this at first, but the fact that DiFi and Rockefeller are pissed about the Panetta appointment so much that they’re airing it already, makes me think Obama made a good choice here. More here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....55338.html
I humbly and shrilly accept. *g*
Oh, Obama is just stupid and got lucky on this one.
Calling Professor Wagstaff
It’s a question of bang for the buck. We have seen Bernanke feed trillions into a liquidity trap with little effect on freeing up credit. Same thing with tax cuts. Some will be spent but a lot more spending would occur if it was just spent not funneled through tax cuts. Since the goal is to increase demand, this is the better way to go.
So let me state it mathematically. Govt spending on infrastructure has a multiplier effect of around 1-1/2. Consumer spending likewise. (Reasonable people will argue about the exact numbers but that’s not important for current purposes.) So for every 10% of tax cuts that are saved you get 10% less stimulus. For an ecomony that is plunging toward depression do you really want to spend 40% of your govt stimulus plan on something that will be inefficient?
It looks like a lot more than 10% of last summer’s tax rebates were saved. So it’s not even an abstract arguement. The evidence is very recent.
That works
Obama DID run on tax cuts for the middle class though- and he probably better deliver on em. That, too, is a question of degree.
Besides, he’s stupid so how do you expect him to understand any of this deep information?
Obama knows he has to hold his cards close to his chest. I live in ME. We have a health care system where the poor are treated virtually free. You haven’t heard about it? The insurance companies would like for our system to be kept perfectly quiet. Obama’s transitional team has been up here looking at it! You would never know from his public statements or the debates. Totally humane. I have had lab work stamped with …If you can’t pay for this , see our office.
Heehee. I have a new anthem.
BTW, the same economic advisors who apparently encouraged PEBO to “waste” (in the sense of my 159) a substantial portion of the stimulus plan as the same ones who deregulated financial markets during Clinton, setting the stage for what followed during W.
LOL. but of course. just be prepared for a little teasing if the critique includes “shrill.”
guess you had to be reading de long and the rest of the anti-war anti-bush blogs in 2002/3/4/5 for the shrill thing to really hit home, but it was a very big deal for a number of years and every time i see someone accused of being shrill for being right i’m likely to be moved to hysterical laugher.
You know there are tax cuts and then there are tax cuts. Not all tax cuts are created equal.
I think we might want to look at what it is Obama is proposing in terms of tax cuts before we condemn them.
I for one am less certain about economic matters than some here. I have always understood that the dismal science is less than a settled matter.
A little patience and moderation can be a good thing from time to time.
I trust you have seen it?
Horsefeathers
Seems to me that he may well be the brightest guy we’ve ever had in the White House- of course Wilson was plenty bright too and left without much glory spread on him..
Obama also seems to have decent street sense-
He has the opportunity to be one of the best presidents in our history- which can only happen when times of great stress meets a person of great aptitude…
I still figure he’s got a good chance to make it big.
I am prepared for teasing, please see my comment at 56. Believe me, I do not take anything said here personally.
As I spent my career doing economics, I have no reason to be patient when I see them doing the wrong thing.
“Obama obviously learned nothing about movement conservatives in his years in the senate. How dumb can one man be?”
excellent!!!
(((oldgold)))
What’s the current multiplier effect for public works projects?
We create more employment and then those who get the money in wages, profits, increased business revenue, etc, decide how much to save….since they are the same people as those who would get tax cuts, why would their decision be different? Same 10% savings rate?
Is our savings rate overall increasing ? If so, the multiplier effect will be less no matter how the money gets into the economy- right?
You know, like in college you have to take a foreign language. Well, at the Five Minute University you can have your choice, any language you want you can take it. Say if you want to take Spanish, what I teach you is “¿Como está usted?” that means, “how are you”, and the answer is “muy bien,” means “very well.” And believe me, if you took two years of college Spanish, five years after you are out of school “¿Como está usted?” and “muy bien” about all you’re gonna remember.
So in my school that’s all you learn. You see, you don’t have to waste your time with conjugations and vocabulary, all that junk. You’ll just forget it anyway, what’s the difference.
Economics? “Supply and Demand.” That’s it. Business is, “you buy something, and you sell it for more.” Theology, I’m gonna have a theology department, you know, since I’m a priest, and what you have to learn in theology is the answer to the question, “Where is God?”, and the answer is, “God is everywhere.” Why? “Because he likes you.” That’s kind of a combination of the Disney and Roman Catholic philosophy. It’s just perfect for the late 70s or early 80s you know, just perfect.
I’d never seen it before, but it was just great. LOL
i’m thinking hugh may not be the only shrill one among us…..
If you liked that you are sure to like Father Guido from above
If I follow your Q, the loss of stimulus thru saving in the govt infrastructure spending comes in the second round, when it is received by households and businesses. So the savings loss is a fraction of a fraction of the stimulus. Whereas in tax cuts, the savings fraction is syphoned off in the first round, and therefore a much larger effect.
masaccio’s diary, Paulson: It Wasn’t Our Fault, It Was Those Greedy Investors, is up top (front paged on the mothership).
What — are you suggesting that he actually DOES care about the mythical ‘little guy’? I know he has a career history of advocating for working people and the disenfranchised, but come on. Now he’s a sellout, kumbaya-singing, turncoat aristrocrat member of the Trilateral commission.
And he’s DUMB, that PEBO! How DUMB can one man be?? PEBO PEBO PEBO
My economics classes were years ago and as I recall the multiplier was always the recipricol of the savings rate- so the overall multiplier effect would be the same for a tax cut or for a spending project….I guess with spending you can say that for the “first round” the cash register rings 100% of the “sale” and that the multiplier effect only applies after that. If the savings rate is 10%, then the difference between the tax cut- and the spending on infrastructure would seem to be relatively small- it’s the same 90% of 90% series after the first ringy dingy.
Ooooh, snap! And this morning’s post was even better. You’ve summed up Obama perfectly. I wish I could send this post to every smug obama-bot who told me it didn’t matter how his policies were different from Hillaries, or whether he caved on FISA - he was special because he INSPIRES so many people and the country was going to come together and do amazing new things. If I see that happen I will assume the CIA has been lacing my coffee with LSD. His platitudes have gone to his head if he thinks he can inspire 25 Implacable Republicans to sign on to his stimulus bill. I think he’d be lucky to get one or two “moderates” like the douche-nozzles from Maine, and the Liebercrat.
But really really smart people KNOW what they would do because they spent a lifetime doing it.
PEBO PEBO PEBO! I just love saying that! He’s just SOOOO STUUUUPID, ain’t he?
Seriously, I don’t like tossing any bones at all to the Republicans either, or the notion of having to acknowledge their existence as a political reality. But they ARE there, and they’re idiotic and venal enough to obstruct for obstruction’s sake. Given the apparent magnitude of the problem, even if there is a perfect solution, is it attainable without the cooperation of some or several influential Repubs? (Here I’m gambling, yes, gambling, that they’re not all utterly inhuman Nazi robots. I know, nutty, huh?)
Oh great. That’s just fabulous news. Clinton, our previous Dem Prez, had a desperate need for approval from Rethuglican authority figures and didn’t give a shit about approval from his political allies. It’s what made him the bestest Republican president ever. The last thing we need is another Dem President with “daddy” issues.
The problem with “Unity Porn”, as Digby calls it, is that all the good people get totally screwed over while all the bad guys get their balls ever-so-gently cupped.
yes. if the dems will change the rule 22 on the filibuster.
Um, that was supposed to be in response to Dr. Murphy at #41:
The response to Raven would be,”Agreed!”
Barack Obama said many times during his campaign that he wanted tax cuts/breaks for the middle class in this country. Now that he’s proposing it, you’re going nuts over it!
THE BOTTOM LINE: the republicans will hate the idea of tax cuts/breaks for the middle class, because THEY LOVE TAX CUTS/BREAKS FOR THE UBER WEALTHY IN THIS COUNTRY.
Trust me. The republicans will do what they always do:
THEY’LL DRAG THEIR ASSES ON THE GROUND LIKE A DOG WITH WORMS IN REACTION TO THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO NEED THE MONEY/BREAK!
Yep. They’ll act like the sick dogs they are. The End.
Like his hero Lincoln, right? Who tried and tried to find common ground with the Southerners and keep the Union together without offending the reactionaries. I can only wonder if the conservatives will respond as the Southerners of Lincoln’s day–by starting a revolution.
i don’t thats the case. obama’s campaign tax plan was revenue neutral - tax breaks for the middle class but taxes were raised on the wealthy. what we’re hearing about now is something like $300 billion in tax cuts - money that could be used for an effective stimulus. as eCAHN explains above (@66), that’s just nuts.
I absolutely hate the idea of capitulating and basically “bending over” for the Republicans. We have control of both the House and the Senate as well as having the White House. It’s about time to get some things done that benefit the 90% rather than everything benefiting the 2%.
What Obama promised regarding taxes:
A cut for 90+% of the peoplw with higher taxes on those earning over $250,000.00 in a debate with McInsane in Warren’s Church on national TV.
Get ready for a rough ride. Obama is going to bend over backwards to appease the Republicans. In that sense he will not be the transformational president many had hoped for but rather a transitional president. He will merely put his finger in the dike while things continue to deteriorate for the working and middle classes. Of course now that he is the leader of the oligarchy he will do all in his power to protect his own. He’ll be transitional as was Kerensky before the ultimate revolution.
True, but it’s early in the year. As legislation arises and events occur there may be opportunities. Time will tell.
Remember too, that any big Energy bill or Health Care reform will be like social programs that go on for decades and you want a lot of support for them. “Drill baby drill!” might sound idiotic, but if that’s required to get to a Green World, then maybe it’s worth it. What might be required to get some bipartisan support on the health care reform isn’t clear yet. I think they’re still early in discussions on the recent proposals.
Who said anything about letting them set the agenda. Heck, things are so out of whack that nobody really sets the agenda. They’ve all got to respond to the crises. Of course Obama and his team set the schedule for handling them and they largely cooperate with Congressional Dems to set up the range of things they’ll discuss.
Except for a policy of trying to negate everything I don’t yet know what the Republicans might aim for. It would certainly be nice if the Republicans had more leadership around their table. I don’t think McConnell and Boehner can get it done without a broader national consensus of what the Republican electorate and politicans want.
My further thoughts on this here. Executive summary: Harry Reid is corrupt, there’s a bipartisan coalition which includes conservative Democrats and Republicans, so Obama has to move carefully.
I defended Obama and Reid on Buriss. If they do things I agree on, I’ll say so and even defend them, against my own co-bloggers if it comes to it. Does anyone who regularly reads my writing think it would be possible for me to even slightly intellectually consistent with my prior writing and be for massive tax cuts at this time?
Of course not. Anyone who reads my stuff regularly would expect me to be against them. Nor have I ever been a big believer in bipartisanship.
Those were oversimplifications. One day I should write an article about why I hate Economics 101. It’s simplified into being effectively incorrect.