Yeah, if they wipe out the humans, there’s no crisis, huh?

“Never again,” unless it’s that Other Guy. Or his children.

Re Olmert, in war the first casualty is the truth.

Wouldn’t it be easier if Israel just built big gas chambers for all the undesirables?

They truly have become the very monster they fear.

100 children have been killed so far. This is horrific.

gee, i wonder how the israelis measure a crisis? olmert seems to be sayin they are “enlightened and moral”.

Well Olmert sure has the Bush cabal snookered.
361 hrs & 3 min

democracy now! has some outstanding reporting on gaza this morning. the israeli propaganda shill was particularly effective at showing the israeli actions for what they are. highly recommended.

I would like to maintain a balanced disgust for both parties involved, but Israel’s behavior has been monstrous for decades. American support for Israel has made it possible for them to behave so.

I keep saying this but Israel’s political leadership across the board makes Bush and Cheney look like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. This whole disaster had no other strategic objective than to resurrect the Kadima party’s crumbling political fortunes by killing a bunch of Arabs and showing pictures on television of bombs raining down on their homes. There is no real way to express how obscenely stupid and at the same time cynical Israel’s current actions are.

Just starting here now.361 hrs & 0 min

Israel would not “allow a humanitarian crisis to be created in the Gaza Strip.”

Translation: We’ll keep you from knowing what’s really happening.

At this point, Israel should have Gaza City effectively surrounded. I worry that the IDF is looking to manufacture an incident that would give them cover for reducing Gaza City to rubble.

But I think the next step will be to call on the “terrorist leadership” to surrender or we’re coming in after you. This isn’t out of any sense of fair play on Israels part, it will simply take them some time to get ready to go into Gaza City. They don’t really expect the offer to be accepted. You’ll see “targeted strikes” during the time Israel is waiting for a reply.

Then in come the tanks. I think they’re planning to force the survivors to evacuate by sea, like the PLO from Lebanon.

Boxturtle (Hamas is eager for this part of the fight)

democracy now! transcripts for this morning’s show are not posted yet, but the realplayer archived audio/video stream is now up.

the entire show was devoted to reports on gaza, there were 4:

A Debate On Israel’s Invasion of Gaza: UNRWA’s Christopher Gunness v. Israel Project’s Meagan Buren
On the tenth day of Israel’s continued assault on the Gaza strip, and in spite of mounting international protests, Israeli ground troops pushed deeper into Gaza. The death toll has risen to 531 Palestinians and 5 Israelis. Nearly 2500 Palestinians have been wounded since the bombing began last week. 49 Israeli soldiers have been wounded since the ground invasion began Saturday.

U.S. Blocks UN Security Council Vote Calling For Immediate Cease-Fire In Gaza
On the diplomatic front, the Security Council is meeting again today to discuss the crisis, after Sunday’s emergency session did not produce a ceasefire resolution. On Saturday the United States blocked a U.N. Security Council statement calling for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza. Egypt meanwhile is hosting meetings for a European-backed ceasefire today.

Israeli Professor Neve Gordon Condemns Israeli Invasion of Gaza
Earlier this morning three Qassam rockets exploded in open areas in the western Negev in Israel. We go to the region to speak with Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel, and the author of “Israel’s Occupation.”

Report From Gaza City: Palestinian Journalist Sameh Habeeb on Gaza Under Siege
Sameh Habeeb is a Palestinian journalist in Gaza City. He joins us on the phone. We also speak with Samer Badawi, the Executive Director of United Palestinian, Appeal, a Washington-based charity established in 1978 to assist needy Palestinians.

This has simply got to be stopped. Israel has long been under the control of madmen, and they control our foreign policy as well. These neocon motherfuckers are nothing but bloodthirsty, genocidal thugs. Think michael ledeen, wolfowitz, perle, et al.
The whole world should be loudly condemning Israel’s disgusting actions, but won’t, for fear of being labled anti-Semitic.

The forward linkie from this page to “R. Idealogues” is broken — Error 404.

On Saturday the United States blocked a U.N. Security Council statement calling for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza.

Such good fiends. Can’t have enough good fiends.

now, why would we want the fighting to continue? i know. our buddies have not finished with the cleansing operation.

great. here are some other places to listen (or watch):

list of 290 radio stations with streaming links and info:
http://radiotime.com/options/p.....y_Now.aspx

official list of all 773 stations that carry democracy now:
http://www.democracynow.org/stations

Thank you Siun. Folks, my post last night has links to agencies trying to help in Gaza, if you can spare some coin.

Isreal is loosing the propaganda war.
This is a rerun of 2006.
Isreal had lost support from europe by 2006.
The Isreali influence, like oil has peaked.
It’s all downhill for them from here.

Every Palestinian killed underscores and amplifies their loss.

Juan Cole’s post from yesterday is excellent.

A great history (and EW’s favorite, a partial timeline) on Israel and Gaza. The best summary and insight I have read anywhere.

So, if Israel can kill an equal number of Palestinians to Jews that were killed in the Holocaust, will they call it even? Is that why most of the world sits back and lets Israel kill as many Palestinians as they want? They think they’re owed 6 million dead bodies? This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

The tragically persecuted have morphed into vicious persecutors. *spit* This is not about anti-semitism. This is not about Jews. This is about Israelis run amok. Not the same thing. Not the same thing at all.

I dont hear alot of people asking these palestinians to stand up to the militia in their country who started to launch rockets into israel. Would not that help produce a country where they would not have to live in fear of retaliatory bombings because there would be no offensive bombings in the first place? It seems that if normal palestinians would stand up for their lives, their family and their country they could take back their country from these suicidal militias. If every bomb America dropped in Iraq was returned into new jersey, new york, mass, florida pennsylvania, do you think we would ask our government to stop dropping bombs on Iraq who has done nothing to us until we bombed them? I would like to think so.

Thank you for all your updates Siun.

My most appreciated quote from Juan Cole yesterday:

War on them, circumscribe them, colonize them all you like. They aren’t going anywhere, and you can’t keep them stateless and virtually enslaved forever, occasionally exterminating some of them as though they were vermin when they make too much trouble. That, sooner or later, will lead to boycotts by rising economic powers and by Europe that could be extremely damaging to Israel’s long-term prospects as a state.

It may still be 10 or 20 years in the future. But because of Israel’s economic and demographic vulnerabilities, for it to lose the war of global public opinion may ultimately be more consequential than either macro-war or micro-war.

Duelling press events? Obama moments ago on CNN re the economy. Now Bush talking about Mid-East.

Sorry, Georgie-Boy. You’re the one who wants to cut brush…nobody gives a scheiss what you have to say.

Dog-in-the-manger.

Exactly there is a huge difference between jews and israelis. Most people in israel are not even that religous. Most average israelis think living in israel is enough religion for them. This is not about the holocaust. This is about defending your country from cowards that think they can bomb your cities and hide behind the skirts of women and playgrounds of children.

You might appreciate reading Juan Cole from yesterday…Israel is responsible for Hamas…historically.

The first “targets” Israel bombed were the Palestinian police forces in Gaza, the only civil officials who could have effectively enforced any kind of cease fire. So it’s rather disingenuous for Israel and her supporters to go on about the goddamned rockets, when they slaughtered the only authorities with the power to stop them.

One of the amazing things is the sheer disengagement from any reality of much Israeli propaganda. They affect surprise that if you shut 1.5 million people up in a tiny area, build a wall round them and take away most of their food and medecines, at least a few of those people will react violently. What else would they do?

Especially as it has for some considerable time been difficult to see what exactly Isreal would be offering if every gun and rocket was handed in and every Palesinian simply stood there with an olive branch.

It seems that if normal palestinians would stand up for their lives, their family and their country they could take back their country from these suicidal militias.

Where do you think these “suicidal militias” came from? They did not exist 60 years ago. They were created out of a brutal occupation. And what country? Israel continues to carve up the West Bank and monopolize its water resources. During the last truce with Hamas, Israel broke it with a large raid into Gaza in November and maintained an economic blockade of this territory. I think you have confused “country” with “prison”. Maybe there would be fewer “suicidal militias” if there were fewer and less brutal jailors.

What this comes down to is blaming the victim. Apparently it continues to be the Palestinians’ fault that they are getting themselves killed. Israel I guess has nothing to do with this either.

See my response to Synoia at 30. We need to get real here.

that is exactly the point of the israeli argument. just stop resisting then everything will be okay. seems simple enough to me. wonder why gaza doesn’t see it that way?

Bless you for having the patience to explain that to drinkers of Israeli kool aid. It was all I could do to prevent myself from hitting the reply button & spewing something that the mods would have to attend to.

Thanks also for making the point the blockade of Gaza itself was in violation of the cease fire.

Here you can continue to read the truth, until/unless I’m censored.

“We can’t do anything (to hurt the Israelis) but fire the rockets and hope they enter Gaza,” he said. “We are praying for the tanks to come so we can show them new things. We have made many preparations for the coming battle and all of our fighters wait for the chance to kill them.”

From the words of Islamic Jihad in Gaza, as quoted by The Guardian.

They prayed for an Israeli attacked. I guess their prayers were answered.

Cooperation between Hamas and Islamic Jihad is well known.

In their own words, they had no intention of honoring any cease fire or of negotiating in good faith with Israel. They wanted an Israeli invasion.

As for Hugh and the November Israeli raid, here is the full truth of that raid, conveniently denied you by Hugh. The Israeli raid was preceeded by more Hamas provocations.

The arguments continue to be couched in Israel’s terms. Gaza has been under siege for many years. Call it what it has been and is. People there have died because of lack of medicine etc. There has been sporadic electricity because of lack of fuel. This seige is a war crime. Hamas rockets have been in retaliation for Israels war crimes.
359 hrs & 49 min

This is about defending your country from cowards that think they can bomb your cities and hide behind the skirts of women and playgrounds of children.

Would those cowards be the same ones who are starved, thirsty and without jobs hiding behind the skirts of starving, thirsty women and children who are without hope, at all? Little in the way of medicine?

Would that be why the Israeli’s interdicted Hamas police, especially the new recruits, the only ones who could reign in those shooting off the rockets?

I say, regime change in Israel, post haste.

Foothillsmike,

As I showed in post #36, the guys firing the rockets do not agree with you. They fired the rockets to incite Israel. At least one commander literally prayed for this Israeli attack. How do you expect Israel to negotiate with such people?

you are making the common error of confusing what one person said for what a million and a half people did not say.

but more importantly, who cares what they pray for? it’s what people do and can do that matters. since when did what a person prays become justification for either capital punishment or mass murder?

More quotes from the peanut gallery of Hamas.

“We salute the resistance men,” Mahmoud al-Zahar said in a televised address from an undisclosed location in Gaza. “They (Israeli forces) shelled everyone in Gaza … they shelled children and hospitals and mosques and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way,” he said.

al-Zahar is making it sound as if there weren’t even any rocket attacks prior to the Israeli attack. How about it Hugh, are you buying that one? These cretins attack Israel in order to cause an Israeli attack, hoping to bloody Israel as they did in 2006. Israel seems to be playing against the rules, they are bombing mosques when weapons are stored there. You can almost see Hamas scratching their heads: “Hey! They weren’t supposed to do that!”

The fact of the matter is that most Americans support Israel. Obama has pledged he will continue to support Israel. That is all the support Israel needs. The rest of you can deny truth as long as you like.

Selise,

I am quoting one of the guys in charge of the rockets, not just some guy on the street. As for the prayers, it is indicative of both intent and actions.

A few years ago there was a peace plan where Israel would voluntarily give up half of its land to the palestinians. The Palestinians rejected it! If you dont want to live in peace dont be upset when you get what you asked for. The guy in this article who has his farm and cows, do you think he wanted palestine to drop bombs? Its not the police who have the power in a society it is the people. And putting up a blockade to makesure that no more bombs getting in is not a violation of ceasefire it is an enforcement of it.

The problem with what you have said is confined in two words “Israel said”. Israel also said they did not ram a medical aid boat. Did you see the pictures of the boat they did not ram. Not only are they war criminals but they are also liars. I trust nothing that they say.
359 hrs & 31 min

I wasn’t quoting Israeli sources, I’ve been quoting Islamic Jihad and Hamas sources as quoted by The Guardian. I deliberately used The Guardian as a source (mainly, I used CNN once) because it is more difficult for you to refute.

I shall do you the favour of assuming you are not stupid. That leaves me the choice of bad or fundamentally misguided.If you treat a whole people over many years as if they had no right to be in the place they were born in pursuit of an ideal, (however noble that ideal may have been), some of these people are going to get very mad indeed. They are going to do and say extreme things. If you bolt them up in, shall we call it a ghetto?, they’ll try to resist. I’m done with even handedness and fairness. Tsipi Livni says everyone has to take sides. I have now. I’m against.

I remember that plan. I remember its conditions as well. No-one in his right mind would have accepted it.

A few years ago there was a peace plan where Israel would voluntarily give up half of its land to the palestinians. The Palestinians rejected it!

i never heard about that. could you give me the details and a link or two?

“but more importantly, who cares what they pray for? it’s what people do and can do that matters. since when did what a person prays become justification for either capital punishment or mass murder?”

I do note, Selise, that given your inclusion of “capital punishment,” it sounds like your argument would also condemnt a police officer for returning fire against a criminal. I suppose you would agree however that such a use of force would be justified. That means you must agree that lethal force is sometimes justified. Therefore, wouldn’t you agree that when you have a situation in which Hamas/Islamic Jihad is lobbing rockets against Israel, importing more weapons and preparing defensive positions in heavily populated areas, mosques, etc., that the choice given to Israel is either to accept being attacked with missiles or attack in the overwhelming manner in which they have attacked? I mean, it would be unreasonable for them to march in like the Light Brigade.

Most of the land israel intitially controlled was bought and paid for. The sellers were palestinians. The palestinians chose to sell their land. It was only when outside arabic groups started to get into the middle of things did the palestinians start to fight somebody else’s war.

I am quoting one of the guys in charge of the rockets, not just some guy on the street.

then condemn the guy in charge of the rockets and not a million and half people. don’t you get that stereotyping a whole group on the basis of what one person or a subgroup says is the signature characteristic of bigotry?

As for the prayers, it is indicative of both intent and actions.

desire. not intent and not actions. and still not a capital crime.

Sorry no link. Most of that was what i heard on tv in the late 90s, before i became addicted to the computer.

you suppose incorrectly.

“I shall do you the favour of assuming you are not stupid. That leaves me the choice of bad or fundamentally misguided.If you treat a whole people over many years as if they had no right to be in the place they were born in pursuit of an ideal, (however noble that ideal may have been), some of these people are going to get very mad indeed. They are going to do and say extreme things. If you bolt them up in, shall we call it a ghetto?, they’ll try to resist. I’m done with even handedness and fairness. Tsipi Livni says everyone has to take sides. I have now. I’m against.”

Very good chetnolian, no (direct) reply to the fact that the guys in charge of the missiles fired them only to goad Israel into an attack, that they had no intention of negotiating in good faith, etc. Instead, insinuate that I’m stupid, a.k.a. attack the messenger. A time-honored approach.

Israel has existed since before my birth. I actually agree that it was a bad idea (they should have given them a huge chunk of Germany and thrown the non-Jews out of it), but it cannot be taken back now. And it doesn’t look like they are going to live together in peace and sing cumbaya either (did I spell that right?). So I guess at some point they will need to negotiate . . . and Hamas/Islamic Jihad don’t want to do that.

please don’t expect me to believe something you heard on tv.

You would not allow a police officer to return fire in self-defense? That is your point-of-view? Very well, it’s good to know where you are coming from.

I’m not sure about the half of Israel part, but I believe this is what you were talking about.:

“Most Israelis believe Mr Barak made the Palestinians a generous - perhaps over-generous - peace offer. They were stunned when Mr Arafat rejected it and - in their view - ignited the intifada.”

Sorry I was away for a bit. You know it is a curious thing what amounts to a provocation. Did you actually read the editorial to which you linked?

Anyone who thinks that the status quo in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is acceptable should talk to a doctor from Gaza. There is an acute shortage of all drugs, and a complete lack of all cancer and cystic fibrosis medication. The hospitals have generators, but often no fuel, and switching from mains to an emergency supply wrecks the equipment. One of the strip’s three CT scanners is bust because of fluctuations in current. This also makes the temperature control of incubators for newborn babies unreliable. There have been some transfers of the sick to Israeli hospitals, but none to Egypt. According to one source, more than 230 patients died last year waiting for a permit to leave.

These apparently were not provocations. As for the November 4 tunnel, was this a provocation. Yes, at least in so far as we can trust the Israelis’ word for it. Did it have to be handled in a way that spiked the truce? No. Israel could have informed Hamas of the tunnel, demanded that it be destroyed and put Hamas on that it considered this to be a “provocation”. Instead it went in with guns blazing. And as the citation above shows, the tunnel was not an action that took place in isolation. Israel’s blockade of Gaza has been an ongoing provocation and violation of any truce.

I think it is more correct to say she would not approve of the police officer blowing up an apartment building/church/school because someone in that direction took a shot at them.

Collective punishment is not a police officer “returning fire”.

Intellectual honesty is helpful in a discussion, although perhaps not to your position…

It seems the Israeli leadership and most rightwing Americans believe that if only the Palestinians would disarm and end their resistance everything would be fine.

This from the crowd that believes the one right that precedes all others is the right to bear arms in order to defend oneself.

-G

Most of the land israel intitially controlled was bought and paid for. The sellers were palestinians. The palestinians chose to sell their land. It was only when outside arabic groups started to get into the middle of things did the palestinians start to fight somebody else’s war.

How can you be taken seriously when you repeat old canards and generally make shit up? The 800,000 Arabs who were forced off their land in 1948 by roving Israeli militias engaged in ethnic cleansing sold their land? You are hallucinating. For years, it was put out that Arab leaders had called for them to leave. But consider would Palestinians leave their land because of what someone in Syria was saying or because of Jewish fighters with guns? And, in fact, as the papers of those who were involved in such operations have become available, it is now clear that is exactly what happened.

Along with this, there is the canard that Israelis only moved into Palestinian Territories because the land was empty. This was used even to justify settlement in the Gaza Strip one of the most densely populated places on earth. And again this was the primary reason that Ariel Sharon decided to pull out of these settlements. Not out of any kindness to Arabs but to make it easier to segregate and control them.

What you are relating is Israeli propaganda, fairy tales to justify brutal and often illegal conduct.

well said Smgumby. thank you for the back up.

“The moment there is suspicion about a person’s motives, everything he does becomes tainted.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Dear Israel, everything you do lately and say becomes less and less with each “retaliation” or “terrorist bombing” on this occupied poor and humiliated people. There is NOT ONE SINGLE country on this planet that would tolerate the occupancy by another country on their soil for one single day (yet you have done it for 50 long years).

I am not a violent man, but if anyone were to set foot on my home-country -I am bloody-well positive I would find the nearest rock to toss at the illegal occupiers.

Looking at a photo of a father holding the bloody fragments of his dead child only works against and defeats anything you are trying to accomplish. It is time for you to leave.

Late gettin’ here. Damn.

Its not israeli propoganda when you are over there in israel and its obvious that not all israelis are empirialists who are ethnically cleansing people. just like not all palestinians bomb israelis. Its easy to say that you are blaming the victim when people on both sides wish they had cousins or aunts and uncles or brothers mothers and fathers back instead of the constant war. but time and time again the leaders of palestine reject peace and opt for war. They bomb innocent people in markets and hide in hospitals. All that stuff in 1948 happened before many of these people were born. Where would you want all of these israelis to go who were born in israel?

Honestly. the cant in DC and from CT congresscritters:

Sen. Joe Lieberman said the conflict stems from the rockets and mortar rounds “fired indiscriminately and unilaterally by Hamas, with the intention of murdering innocent civilians.”

“After repeated warnings,” he said, “Israel is now exercising its legitimate right of self-defense to stop these terrorist acts.”

Rep. Rosa DeLauro said Friday that the United States should support the return to a cease-fire, but only if Hamas ceases its rocket attacks.

Sen. Chris Dodd, a senior member of the foreign relations committee, also condemned the Hamas attacks. “But there is no military solution to the conflict,” he said in a statement, adding that he supports an interim truce and negotiations.

I have not been following the gaza massacre in as much detail as I probably should, but I am so tired of DC cant and rationales for Israel’s raining down a ton of sh*t on civilian heads. It’s hard to think of a metaphor for it. Maybe: (Israel) telling a tortured person (Palestinian/Lebanese/fill in the blank civilians) to stop twitching. How do we encourage congrescritters to move in a different direction?

time and time again the leaders of palestine reject peace and opt for war

Would that be like the Camp David Accord, which would have been insane for the Palestinians to accept?

Is your position that the Palestinians should accept any conditions the Israelis demand in order to have “peace?”

No I did not insinuate you were stupid. You have the chice of the other two.

Israel did not exist when I was born. For years I would have said I was basically sympathetic to Israel, such was the horror which justified its being set up and I was blissfully unaware of what I now know about the initial history of the conflict. I visited the Washington holocaust museum only two years ago. I am not unaware of where all this comes from.

And yet.. I date the decline of Israeli morality to the election of Menachem Begin (now there was a real terrorist) as PM. When Israel had a PM who might make a real settlement, it was a Jew, not an Arab, who assassinated him. It has taken me long time to get to where I am, which I regret is sympathising with a bunch of fanatical Islamists, because, all things being equal, their position is more defensible. I hate it but there it is.

The injustice of firebombing churches/temples/mosques should always resonate with anyone with a sense a history.

Waco comes to mind. Federal law enforcement at its finest.

Yes, and don’t mind the children./s

if that was it, i recommend reading jeff halper’s analysis (and israeli jew and an anthropologist by training). it was not a “generous offer”.

better late than never. nice to see you here SD and you too mui1!

Or women holding a baby a la Randy Weaver’s wife Vicki at Ruby Ridge.

Its not israeli propoganda when you are over there in israel and its obvious that not all israelis are empirialists who are ethnically cleansing people

of course they aren’t all advocating enthnic cleansing. i expect the vast majority of them are not.

and btw, i have been there - not for a long time and it was years ago. but it was the israelis i met who were probably the most influential to me in forming the opinions i now hold.

Short visit. Too bad. Back to the quarry.

Namaste

Yes they should have accepted those terms. It would have given them time to regroup and live for a little while with out living in fear of war. If they did not like it they could easily opt out like they always do. If they did like living in peace as things get better, the peace terms could get better.

Hugh,

Yes I did read the article, and you have quoted it correctly.

As you know, Israel claims that it has not closed Gaza except in response to rocket attacks. Many people here and in other threads have claimed otherwise.

In an article shortly after the start of the cease fire, the New York times reported that:

“Israel sealed the border crossings on Wednesday in response to a rocket attack on Tuesday, the first serious breach of the Egyptian-brokered truce. In light of the latest rocket fire, Israeli officials were still deliberating Thursday about when to reopen the crossings.” (emphasis added)

Is the New York Times lying? On what basis would you disbelieve this report?

Okay, then I find the following gem, in none other than The Guardian, a source that few liberals can reject:

“We can’t do anything (to hurt the Israelis) but fire the rockets and hope they enter Gaza,” he said. “We are praying for the tanks to come so we can show them new things. We have made many preparations for the coming battle and all of our fighters wait for the chance to kill them.”

The speaker was a leader of Islamic Jihad’s rocket forces inside Gaza. As you know, Islamic Jihad is closely allied with Hamas. What a wonderful moment of enlightenment, of truth.

The New York Times is correct, the closures of Gaza DID take place in response to the missile strikes. And the people in charge of those missiles have been firing them along with prayers - prayers - for an Israeli attack.

You can logically infer from this that the leaders inside Gaza care nothing for the suffering of the people in Gaza. And the quote is strongly in support of Israeli claims that they use human shields, hide weapons in homes, mosques and hospitals, etc.

So yes, the people in Gaza are suffering. We already know that. But I have presented you with very strong evidence that their suffering is part of a deliberate ploy on the part of Islamic Jihad and Hamas. That key fact ought to have weight in all discussions about this issue.

The fact of the matter is that when you see a wounded kid on TV or the internet, you have no idea who hurt it or why. Maybe an Israeli soldier fired indiscriminately. Or perhaps the child was being used as a human shield. You just don’t know. But, thanks to that quote, we do know something about the heart of one of those Islamists in charge of Gaza’s rocket arsenal, and we know it’s a very dark place.

I see. The Israeli’s way or no way. No thanks.

They, they, they. Them. Who’s “them”? The “other”? The barbarian who doesn’t know how to live in peace? I reject the implied premise that the Palestinians are these collective terra-bots.
I am beginning to think Edward Said’s Orientalism was not exaggerated.

and to you too!

It seems we both see the issue from the same point (that the people in the middle east are actually people with faces and names) but I guess we disagree as to the severity of retaliatory measures. I dont think killing civilians is at all acceptable but sometimes it is unavoidable. I also think that Israel could scale back some of the things they are doing, however, they do have a right to defend themselves. And this is something that neither of us can stop from happening, wish as we may.

I have never called these guys terrorists or barbarians. I do know what the ‘other’ is. Not understanding the enemy is the quickest way to defeat. I was talking about these leaders of palestine rejecting a peace proprosal in the 90s. They are not barbarians because they do not choose peace, they do not choose peace because they have other plans.

Just wandered by for a quick check in. It was you who brought up the canard that Palestinians sold their land to Jewish settlers. And while both sides have families who have suffered losses you overlook the fact that while a fairly small number of Israelis have been killed thousands of Palestinians have been killed. So many more Palestinian families have suffered loss. You also overlook that while Israelis are pretty much free to pursue their lives. Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are basically treated as prisoners. In Gaza, they are half starved and in the West Bank they continue to see their land and water disappear into Israeli settlements or behind Israel’s Fence of Separation.

i have personally seen an inhumane level of oppression that has nothing to do with israeli’s security - this was confirmed to me by israelis (some with shame and some with pride).

in no way do i support the violent measures being taken by individual israeli or palestinians. but the crimes are not the same - either qualitatively or quantitatively.

and yes, my pov and concern is with the people there - ALL the people: both israelis and palestinians.

It would be more helpful if you were specific and spelled out who “they” is. Name names. Don’t just say Hamas, or the Palestinians, or “leaders”. That’s tired. as tired as the War on Terra. Describe “the enemy.” Because the term “enemy” is often a nebulous term often used by dictators and political wingnuts to advance their own domestic agenda or personal cause. Sort of like Nixon was said to believe the peace movement was advanced by “commies” i.e “the enemy”, or segregationists would be whipped up into a violent frenzy by being made to believe that the civil rights movement was led by “commies,” i.e. “the enemy.” Tells us what you think the exact agenda of the Palestinian “leaders” was, if it wasn’t refusing to be beggared even further for a few scraps off the big man’s table.
BTW. In fem theory, “the other” is a term used to describe someone who’s constantly objectified, and spoken of as “not like us.”

howdy mui1! listening to cspan now…. first hearing of the new year.

Yikes, I am so out of it. What’s the hearing?

Madoff Ponzi and the SEC

The so called Palestinians could have a lovely country with a wonderful beachfront resort. The International tourists would flock to the area. Israel left Gaza in the hands of Hamas and rather than produce fruits and vegetables in the Green Houses that were left, they looted and destroyed them. Lobbing shells into someone’s neighborhood provoked a response that Gazans deserved. No one is “occupied” or or refugees unless by choice. Choose your battles. Hatred is really on the Arab side. Israel, nor anyone else, has called for the destruction of the Arab nations. The anti-Semitic Arabs feel that it is more important to hate than to take care of their populations. What a bunch of misguided rhetoric by a group of miscreants. Omer.

So yes, the people in Gaza are suffering. We already know that. But I have presented you with very strong evidence that their suffering is part of a deliberate ploy on the part of Islamic Jihad and Hamas. That key fact ought to have weight in all discussions about this issue.

Small inaccurate rockets fired sporadically into Israel versus an economic blockade of 1.5 million. I would question on whose part the ploy is deliberate. You dismiss so easily and so lightly these 1.5 million people. Yes, they suffer but then you pass on to your weak argument that somehow that suffering is not Israel’s fault although it is the one actually doing the things causing the suffering but it is really somebody else’s fault. Basically the Palestinians are doing it to themselves.

Yes, Israel closed a crossing point in response to a couple of rockets. So in response to a specific incident it engaged in collective punishment, a war crime. And it should be noted that one of Hamas’ demands was precisely about the crossings, that throughout the Israelis have kept most of them closed. You persist in this fiction that Israel is this peace loving country that somehow has been forced to engage for 40 years in a brutal occupation and had to, despite all their efforts, settle hundreds of thousands of Israelis on Palestinian land, that they have been left with no other option but to starve Palestinians in the Territories, to engage in reprisals against them, to block any effort at development in the Territories.

We are told now and then as if it meant something that in the last few days that Israel let in a 100 trucks of supplies. But these trucks contain what Israel says they can contain. And think about it. Could you keep a city the size of Philadelphia (1.5 million) supplied on a 100 trucks a day?

Actually the Israelis bulldozed most of their settlements rather than turn them over to Palestinians for their use. It is indicative of the great poverty that Israel has created in Gaza that Palestinians found it worth their while to loot the rubble.

Naomi Klein has an interesting take on the rise of the security industry and Israeli peace-seekers losing traction. Shock doctrine.