(People's Temple, part 3--check out at the church service at 3:00 as Jones refuses the camera crew access , and his subsequent comments about the media)
This 22 minute documentary shot in 1973, provides in hindsight many clues that things weren't quite right with Jim Jones' Peoples Temple. Jones' megalomania leaks out, as does the somewhat obsessive "love" his followers feel for him. Yet there is also a sense of Utopian hope, a desire for a colorblind world of self sufficiency.
Director David Gottlieb filmed Jones and his followers on their property in Redwood City and at their church in Los Angeles where Jones' crazy comes out in full force. Just before filming began, a negative article about Jones ran in the San Francisco Examiner, and the documentarians were denied permission to film faith healings and other controversial aspects of the church.
Hoping to stave off further media criticism, Jones gave out grants to 12 newspapers and bussed his followers to demonstrate in support of Fresno Bee reporters who had been jailed for refusing to reveal confidential sources.
In retrospect you have to ask, how did Jones gain political and social influence, and how did he go from being appointed to the San Francisco Housing Authority to ordering the deaths of hundreds of his followers in Guyana?
Jones was an ordained minister in the Disciples of God, and at his peak his followers numbered over 8,000. He began his San Francisco power brokering by raising funds for the families of slain police officers. As his church grew, it offered jobs and social programs as well as religious services. Jones could bus bodies to political events and he was seen as a force in progressive circles. The People's Temple donated to the NAACP, the Ecumenical Peace Institute and other groups. He was toasted at testimonial dinner by Assemblyman Willie Brown, San Francisco Mayor Moscone, Angela Davis, lawyer Vincent Hallinan, Lieutenant Governor Mervyn Dymally and publisher Carlton Goodlett; he met with Roslyn Carter and Walter Mondale.
But by 1976, as Jones grew more powerful, the press stepped in and began more and ever deeper investigations, discovering faked faith healings along with attempts to raise the dead and what cult expert Rick Ross calls
extremely coercive fund raising that pushed members to liquidate their assets and hand over the money to the church.
Jones and his followers fled to his compound in Guyana in August of 1977 on the heels of a New Times magazine article exposing the fraud and financial shenanigans. In the summer of 1978, a Jonestown defector, Deborah Layton, gave lengthy interviews to the San Francisco Chronicle about abusive conditions in Jonestown and Jones' out of control behavior. On November 18, Rep. Leo Ryan, Deborah Layton, and members of the media investigating the compound were murdered, followed by the mass murder/suicide of Jones and his followers.
Willie Brown said in the aftermath:
If we knew then he was mad, clearly we wouldn't have appeared with him. But it's not fair to say what you would have done if you knew the kind of madness that would take place years later.
And Mayor Moscone, who along with Harvey Milk would be assassinated nine days later, responded to Jonestown saying:
It's clear that if there was a sinister plan, then we were taken in. But I'm not taking any responsibility. It's not mine to shoulder.
The clues were there--you can see them, though perhaps with the hindsight that is 20/20-- in Gottlieb's documentary and surely the press coverage of Jones in 1972 and 73 might have been enough to give politicians pause--especially that "raising the dead" stuff, yikes! But politicians seemed to weigh to cost-benefit of having a cult providing them with voters and opportunities for free publicity, erring on the side of "Well they do so much good for the community--let's just ignore the negative reports..."
Michael Thomas' article in the San Francisco Chronicle, twenty years after Jonestown quotes Jones' lawyer Tim Stoen:
There wasn't anything magical about Jim's power. It was raw politics. He was able to deliver what politicians want, which is power. And how do you get power? By votes. And how do you get votes? With people. Jim Jones could produce 3,000 people at a political event.
In the same article, Agar Jaicks, Chairman of the county Democratic Central Committee seemed to agree with Stoen's assessment saying:
What you had here was a ready-made volunteer workforce and he was very strong and here was a guy who could provide workers for causes.
Gottlieb was there, he spent time with Jones and People's Temple members, and his insight into the early days of this coercive and dangerous group--and how religion forces itself into political power as we move into a new administration will certainly make for lively discussion.
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David, Welcome to the Lake.
Hi–I’m here…
Hi David!Thanks so much for coming on to discuss your eye opening documantary Peoples Temple
How did you come about shooting the film?
I saw the piece on the folks that were playing hoops the day of the murder/suicide and we thereby saved. Wasn’t one of their sons a pretty good player in the Bay Area who had a chance to play college ball? Any info.
I was a graduate film student at USC. Had already done a dramatic film and was looking for a documentary idea. My friend was managing a huge old hotel in downtown L.A. where on any given sunday different cults and religions would rent out various auditoriums. One day he phoned me and told me about Jim Jones. I came down and watched the service and was blown away. I had expected a redneck hellfire-and-damnation type of fundamentalist preacher, but what I saw instead was a diverse mixture of black and white religion with socialism and civil rights thrown in in a big way. I realized this would make a great documentary.
I don’t know.
Jones was kinda of a socilaist/Marxist form what I read And a manipulator..did you see any faith healing tht first day?
There was a basketball team that the media suspected after the suicides to be a sort of high-level hit squad. I don’t think the truth of that suspicion ever panned out.
I have sooo many questions:
Jones cut off your access into the filming…I guess there had been an unfavorable article about him earlier?
Did you think there was something off about him, that this was a little creepy?
I saw faith healing at every service from the first to the last. In fact, the real reason Jim Jones made us turn off the cameras was that we were about to film the faith healings, which were completely dummied up. In watching the third section of the documentary, you should note how he turned the reason that he made us stop filming around on its head. That’s a perfect example of how he manipulated his followers.
I think Sports Illustrated had a story in the last couple of months about a son of Jones who played basketball and got a scholarship.
What kind of faith healing did he do–pulling “gunk” out o peoples bodies, that psychic surgery stuff?
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/
This site has a ton of information and essays. I learned a lot the weekend MSNBC ran its “Witness to Jonestown” special.
I was 10 years old and growing up in the Bay Area when the mass death happened. I remember that it was a big deal, but certainly didn’t understand much about it at the time.
FunnyDiva
Yes. Jones himself was creepy. The reason he made us stop filming had nothing to do with the newspaper article, but rather, as I responded just now, we would have exposed the phony “healing” antics. For example, large African American women were spitting up “cancers” into the waiting white napkins of attending nurses while Jones said, “Can you smell that? Pretty bad, huh?” The healings were strangely convincing, but they were all phony.
Heavy duty tin foil hat material from a conspiracy website re: Jones’ boyhood friend Dan Mitrione…
“Dan Mitrione, Jones’ friend, moved on to the CIA-financed International Police Academy, where police were trained in counter-insurgency and torture techniques from around the world.[88] Jones, a poor, itinerant preacher, suddenly had money in 1961 for a trip to “minister” in Brazil, and he took his family with him.[89] By this time, he had “adopted” Beikman, and eight children, both Black and white.[90] His neighbors in Brazil distrusted him. He told them he worked with U.S. Navy Intelligence. His transportation and groceries were being provided by the U.S. Embassy as was the large house he lived in.[91] His son, Stephan, commented that he made regular trips to Belo Horizonte, site of the CIA headquarters in Brazil.[92] An American police advisor, working closely with the CIA at that point, Dan Mitrione was there as well.[93] Mitrione had risen in the ranks quickly, and was busy training foreign police in torture and assassination methods. He was later kidnapped by Tupermaro guerillas in Uruguay, interrogated and murdered.[94] Costa Gravas made a film about his death titled State of Siege.[95] Jones returned to the United States in 1963, with $10,000 in his pocket.[96] Recent articles indicate that Catholic clergy are complaining about CIA funding of other denominations for “ministry” in Brazil; perhaps Jones was an early example.[97]”
Creepy.
Here’s a Sports Illustrated article from 12/07.
Basketball notwithstanding, I think today as in anytime it’s a difficult to be a person of faith. There’s always a whole bunch of folks who want to need to be seen as correct.
I think there is a whole lot of pressure put on people of Faith, as in Christianity, to be pure and always correct. But, in fact, people of no faith have to face the same questions.
Sorry. That’s the way I’m seeing it tonight.
Hi David, thanks for being here.
I was working at the Bay Guardian when Jonestown happened. Bob Levering of the Guardian was one of those who had defended People’s Temple and said they did a lot of good community work (which they had before the fled).
Took a lot of shit for that when it happened. What a strange time to be in San Francisco.
Here’s the story from ESPN, it’s Rob Jones, son of Jim Jones Jr.
No, prayers for healing and little old ladies getting up outta wheelchairs and walking around. At least one little old lady was a Church secretary playing a part.
FunnyD
Let’s keep in mind that the Milk-Moscone murders in San Francisco took place within weeks of the Jonestown massacre and the loss of Leo Ryan and the others murdered at the airport. This was a profoundly depressing era for the entire San Francisco Bay area.
Don’t know your background, so I have no context.
Church secretarys are people too.
Tell me.
And it wasn’t all that long after Patty and the SLA.
religion is something people don;t like to really point fingers about , because it so persona. In Jones’ case–politicians really appreciated his voting blocks, the people wiht whom he was able to build coalitions. He got sosme good things done..and he started out perhpas sincere, perhpas not. But he made sure people KNEW his name..
Was Jim Jones a man of faith or did he have no faith?
“As his church grew, it offered jobs and social programs as well as religious services. Jones could bus bodies to political events and he was seen as a force in progressive circles.”
Sounds like Hamas
Yes, I do remember that. And that’s why Jonestown was a big deal to start with was because of the Ryan assasination. And then the Milk/Moscone assasination. And the resulting power vacuum that gave DiFi her start on a prominent political stage.
FunnyD
IMO, he was a ideolog moving inot being a demiurge..he wantd power and wealth…he began to attract notice by collecting funds for fallen polices officers families–doing good work–how you cna fault that–but david wasnt he collecting funds in a questionable manner?
In SF journalist Randy Shilts’ The Mayor of Castro Street: The Life and Times of Harvey Milk, he recounts some bizarre encounters between the People’s Temple folks and various politicians. In one such episode, Tory Hartmann and Tom Randol (two of of Harvey Milk’s campaign workers) went to the Peoples Temple at Jones’ invitation to drop off a big bunch of brochures. They were met by a locked door, and started to unload their boxes. A guard steps out, asks what they are doing, and tells them to just leave the boxes outside. “That’s OK,” say Tory and Tom, “We’ll carry them in for you.” The guard ducks back in to check with the higher-ups, and finally returns to let them in.
Says Shilts:
Shilts goes on to note, however, that Hartmann and Milk were the exceptions, not the rule, in how politicians viewed Jones. For instance, Mayor Moscone appointed Jones to be the head of the Housing Authority, and the SF DA at the time appointed Jones’ top lieutenant, Tim Stoen, to be the ADA in charge of investigating voter fraud, despite the fact that many of the allegations were aimed at the Peoples Temple. Writes Shilts:
[pp. 139-140]
Sounds human.
Raven that could apply to Rick warren, to Scientology to any number of religious groups–they do socila outreach and try to buuild favor
IIRC it was Les Kinsolving, of the batshit crazy questions in the W press conference fame, that was the first to call BS on Jim Jones. He was a religion columnist for a Bay Area paper.
I wonder how he’s stack up with David Koresh?
Thanks for those links FunnyHusseinDiva. I’ll check them after Rachel. Thanks, David and Lisa too. This subject absolutely fascinates me. I look forward to watching your film too, David.
Lisa, the question is, were the good things Jim Jones did merely token actions to advance his megalomania; in other words, were these “loss’leaders” to attract more followers? His manipulation was brilliant at times. He had figured out stuff about social workers’ burnout and he trained clients of social workers who were members of his church to promote People’s Temple as a racially integrated utopia and invited them to visit their Redwood Valley church and compound. Believe it or not, social workers from the region would actually join the Temple after seeing this stuff. Go figure!
I didn’t know Jim Jones, so I cannot answer your question.
People have faith in a lot of things. Some people who claim to be of faith say that God talks to them. And some of those people are full of [stuff].
Some people claim to hear God who have a strong need for control and power.
What do I know?
Preview is my friend:
“As they carried the boxes in, they saw the door of each room was guarded . . .”
I worked at Mt. Zion Hospital in SF. It served the same neighborhood that the Jones church was in. I met many families effected by the murders/suicides. Horrifying. SF certainly had its share of tragedy during that time. Moscone, Milk. The zodiac killer scared the crap out of people earlier.
Give em a light
and they’ll follow it anywhere
firesign
Lisa, you’ve opened up a can of worms. How often do cults and religions raise money in a questionable manner?
Oh they were loss leaders, that’s fer shure–and that’s one thing politicians need t be aware of–just because a group has say literacy programs, or anti-drug programs, if they are pushing a specific mind set cultish way of thinkng “our way is only/best” etc may it’s wise to not fall into that dealdy embrace
I just read an article today in the NYTimes about how conservatives give more to “charity” than liberals. The charities were lumped otgether…but I wiuld be lots were churches…
Hi David, thanks Lisa
In the 70s I lived in Berkeley and met a conflicted young man who was soo trying to be a good soul. He was struggling with his natural urges — from food choices to sex. And one night he told me about this great church and their Eden –my term, a place in South America. The location was the best spot on the planet, he told me, to survive a nuclear conflagration. And he mentioned other reasons why it might be Eden.
After Jonestown happened I realized this was the church he was talking about, and Jonestown was his Eden.
I’ve always been confident tho that his own “failings” –again my term– kept him from going there and being a victim. But it did give me an insight into the kind of person attracted to the likes of Jim Jones.
David, did any of them try to win you over to their team?
With Prop 8 we saw salvation and the afterlife leveraged to remove civil rights…”donate, it wil help you wiht imortality and help save the country from immorality”
The only time I ever had any respect for DiFi was right after the murders of Moscone and Milk. She was a rotten mayor. But, then, SF was really not a progressive city.
Check out “The Great Derangement” by Matt Taibbi. Hagee’s Church is something else.
David, how much “film” did you take of interviews and background? Was it much more than the three parts on Youtube?
Of course they are! I only meant that (from the documentary on MSNBC in November) at least one of the famous films of a healing was of a church secretary _pretending_ to be unable to walk, and then being miraculously healed by the power of prayer and walking away from her wheelchair. It was a sham.
(((demi))) I’m sorry you’re feeling kind of attacked. I sure didn’t mean to come across as attacking.
All 900+ people who died there in Guyana were people first and foremost. The first link at my #14 is a resource site maintained by a woman who lost 2 sisters there, and one of its primary missions is to put individual faces and stories with victims and survivors.
FunnyD
Not to mention Hamas and especially Hizballah. It’s a tried & true was to pick up a flock by providing social services. It’s also why W & Obama want to turn more of govt money over to religious organizations.
Here’s the amazing thing: the victims of Jones were very possibly people like you and me. In fact, I did a follow-up post-Jonestown documentary,The People of People’s Temple. I think he was so talented at manipulation that it’s hard for us to say in retrospect whether we would all have been immune to his power. One of the survivors in the later documentary told me, on camera, that Jones had a way of reaching down into your soul, finding what was missing, and offering it to you. Other people with this talent may be historic figures like Adolf Hitler and Jesus Christ.
I was struck by Jones’ attempts to manipulate the press–after your interview and an earlier negative article he gave grants to a dozen newspapers an sent followers to Fresno to demonstrate in support of reports who were jailed for not revealing their sources. It was so crass..and it didn’t work. The press exposed him.
Yes, people did try to win me over. I believe Jim Jones was looking for “media people” who could work for him. His followers tried to lay a big trip on me and my filmmaking partner. They sent out spies to look through our garbage and our mailboxes so they could tell us stuff about ourselves as if the information were divined by Jim Jones himself.
I don’t feel attacked. Just asked a question about context.
Really. I’m not Jesus.
Of course, there are shams everywhere.
Cool.
Yea, I didn’t mean to derail the conversation with my basketball question but I knew most of the standard stuff. The ESPN show was an angle I never knew about. It was just a matter of fate that they were off playing when it went down and the interviews with the survivors was really heavy.
Bev, what you see in this film is pretty much the extent of what was shot. In filmmaking we refer to a shooting ratio, meaning the amount shot in relation to the amount used. Because of the dictated access we had to this group, the ratio was pretty small. If asked by FIreDogLake, I would love tto post the second film, The3 People of People’s Temple sometime in the future.
Regardless of Jones’ faith or lack of it, I believe many of his followers were people of faith and sincere in their quest for social justice. Therein lies much of the tragedy of the mass death. Those parents wanted a better world for their children. Those young people wanted a more just world. Those older black ladies wanted and needed a community that would value and respect them.
FunnyD
What an exciting time! Imagine if we had blogs back then.
(Great job on Schuster tonight, btw. You forgot to mention the standing ovation Stevens got, though. I can’t imagine how you keep your cool on tv, though!)
Mod note: Please stay on topic in salon threads. Thank you.
I remember news stories about rival gangs getting territorial about their food distribution efforts after the Kobe earthquake.
FunnyD
1978 sucked, now, 1968. . .
David. No.
I’m not like those victims.
FunnyDiva, you’re right: this was the ultimate tragedy of some very meaningful and good people being deceived and murdered.
Some of his followers pretty much sold everything and gave it him, correct? Then went to live on the communes? That woman who was painting picture after pictur eof him…creeeeepy. It is painful to see idealism abused.
Come on now, his point was that under certain conditions folks can be pretty vulnerable.
No, you weren’t born in a manger, you’re from the Planet Krypton! Oh, wait…
Glad there’s no hurt feelings. My apology was by way of trying to look after a fellow-commenter I respect and care about!
FunnyD
Was Teh Awesome! Because I arrived very early in the year!!!
FunnyD
David, have you gotten any reactions to your film(s) from others who were around at the time and who were characters in the political scene in SF at the time — Peoples Temple folks, local politicians who are still around (Willie Brown or Dianne Feinstein, for example), SF reporters who covered the Temple, etc?
babysan
David, only people who are really not paying attention get deceived.
It’s about personal responsibility.
Not, my dog ate my homework.
Good intentions…we know what that leads to.
Wow. That’s interesting.
Yeah, dam liberals spend too much time and effort trying to make the gummint meet its obligations to “the least of these” instead of leaving it up to the wealthy who should be helped and how![/s]
And I agree, there’s probably a lot of churches or faith-based programs in that tally!
FunnyD
Okay.
I think this discussion is coming to the point of understanding the profound tragedy of this incident in history. The question is, is this emblematic of religious freedom gone mad? How do we protect religious freedom while reining in this type of deception?
goo! (drool)
FunnyD
Take a tip from Paul Newman
You have to wait until he commits a crime and then pursue it. Can’t stop it in advance.
Funny?
I wrote a song a while back called I’m not Jesus.
Not Superman neither, but never claimed to be.
I am not afraid of asking questions, however.
Answered or not.
Of course we’re cool.
Sisters At The Lake.
You’re welcome, LooHoo. I learned a lot from and highly recommend both–I’m not sure if you can watch the whole documentary online, though.
FunnyD
It’s possible that other documentaries have covered a little big of what you’re referring to, a general malaise in reaction to the tragedies affecting the San Francisco Bay area. I recently heard an interview with Dianne Feinstein relating the shootings of Milk and Moscone, which she almost witnessed. My later documentary contains interviews with some Bay Area people who reminisced about Jonestown.
Most people don’t care about Religious Freedom.
That’s just what I see here. There was a time at the Lake that no one could even talk about religion.
I still think it’s a matter of personal responsibility.
There are churches getting away with this type of thing every day. They are not killing them but take their money, teach them to hate and use them.
I have begun to think that while tithing or giving to churches should continue as a tax deduction, the IRS may want ot take a good hard look at how churches us those funds and perhpas consider taxing their income…
I would love to see all 3. I’m at work now…is there a link where I could find them?
Didn’t you take a lot of flak over “The People of People’s Temple”–for being too sympathetic or apologistic or something?
FunnyD
Can we, or is there a certain amount of “loss” that has to be tolerated?
I think Jones was working for the CIA as part of MK Ultra, the brainwashing experimentation the CIA had been doing since we brought Hitler’s brainwashing scientists back from Germany/Poland.
Bill Dwyer, who was listed as a who’s who of the CIA in ‘59 or so, was working for the embassy, and was present on the day of the murders. Ryan was concerned that Jonestown was a CIA experiment and that was a big reason for his visit. Dwyer was supposedly injured by a gunshot at the airport where Ryan was killed, but he went back to Jonestown shortly after, while Ryan and the others lay dying on the airstrip.
Jim Jones can be heard on audio tape shortly before the murder/suicides saying, “get Dwyer out of here before they do something to him” or something very similar.
The body count doubled from about 400-500 to 900 after a couple days. They said they miscounted, and forgot to check behind the main building. What most likely happened was 100-200 people drank the Kool-Aid, another 200-300 were forced to drink it or were shot, and the rest of the people ran into the jungle.
Soldiers then hunted down the remaining people, and dragged them back to the pile of bodies. The bodies were then allowed to rot for multiple days, and then were prevented from undergoing autopsies in New Jersey, which was against the law.
Many of the bodies likely contained drugs related to the experimentation, as vast quantities of the same drugs used in MK Ultra were found at Jonestown.
90% of the victims were women, and 80% were black. Foster children and mental patients had their custody transfered to the People’s Temple. The CIA was caught experimenting on mental patients with LSD and other drugs. Ken Kesey worked at a mental hospital he knew to be CIA run, and received free LSD from the institution. This experience inspired his book, “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.”
At Jonestown, Jim Jones would blast his voice from speakers located all over the camp, 24 hours a day, another technique utilized by the CIA in the MK Ultra program.
and what about Jones’ responsibility?
FunnyD
Seems unlikely you could ever get as religious a country as the U.S. to go along with that.
and maybe work toward a progressive agenda and better social safety net so that people aren’t so desperate and so desperate people’s only option isn’t a church? (I think that’s part of why us DFH progressive types are hanging out here at the Lake, anyway!)
FunnyD
Go to YouTube andd then to davgot47, where you can see the three pieces of the film we’re talking about. The People of People’s Temple got rave reviews; you can see the Variety review at my site, davidgottlieb.com. It also received an Emmy nomination. It wasn’t apologetic at all; in fact it showed slightly varying behavioral science interpretations by some very famous psychologists, psychiatrists, and sociologists.
Ryan did not go there because he thought Jonestown was CIA.
Yes, that would be a good start. Instead, we’re doing the opposite, giving more power to religious orgs.
I thought he was dead.
If I’m wrong, that’s another discussion.
If he’s dead, we have to leave it to God.
Wrong is wrong. And, God don’t like ugly. That’s what I’ve heard.
I would enjoy that.
My apologies.
Yes. My huge objection to federal tax dollars getting funneled through faith-based programs. Let alone government agencies being run as faith-based programs!
GRRRRRR!!!
FunnyD
Yes, Jones was completely responsible though he was surrounded by a helluva lot of “yes” men and women, I think in this type of personality cult there’s nobody who is going to go up to the personality and tell him or her face-to-face what they’re doing or how mentally ill they are. Surely we’ve seen this type of phenomenon countless times. Another thing, and this is important: Jones became a classic paranoiac and increasingly dependent on methamphetamine doses that were administered on demand by the doting nurses who “cared” for him. This guy in the final analysis, in the final period, was stark raving mad. (Not that that’s an excuse for mass murder.)
I think Ryan and others went down there as part of a custody battle.
Thanks! Very cool. I look forward to watching and reading!
FunnyD
That’s sad.
This place doesn’t make me a better person more than my church does.
That’s just me.
Thanks for taking the time to be here.
And unfortunately in faith-based initiatives, minority faiths get the short shrift. I am appalled that Minnesota teen Challenge is applying for 500K in fed funds, and they have a record of abuse at their teen boot camps, which are pretty doctrinaire. Those should be self funded not govt funded.
Indeed. The story I heard is that he had constituents concerned about their loved ones and he took an aide and some journalists on a fact-finding mission.
Poetic justice that many years after surviving that ambush and being gravely wounded, that aide now has Ryan’s seat in Congress.
FunnyD
Well, the meth usage answers a Q I didn’t ask, which is what made him go around the bend, or was he always nuts.
what was in the syringes found after the mass murder?
I agree. It’s nice to have a lively discussion.
It’s also nice to have guests answer questions, tho.
No offense, David. Still.
I propose that we give all federal faith-based funding to Wiccan groups!
gaaaaaahhhh!
we’re not hanging here because we’re desperate, but to push a progressive agenda like I was suggesting.
Sheesh.
FunnyD
As I understand it, the syringes were filled with poison and they were either administered by force to people who wouldn’t take the “KoolAid,” and I’m not quite sure about this, but I think they used the syringes to inject the poison into the mouths of their babies. I don’t remember what kind of poison it was.
Ha!
Sheesh, indeed.
Check it.
Some/many were used to squirt the cyanide solution directly into the mouths of the babies and small children. Perhaps as a way to take away the parents’ reason to refuse the FlavorAid.
Ugly. It was murder. And Jones didn’t even have to suffer the horrible death by poisoning–he was shot in the head by one of his deputies (probably).
FunnyD
I worked in every Ryan campaign and he was a personal friend. His local aide wanted him to run for the Senate and thought this would be good publicity.
I had a conversation with the aide and asked him not to do this since Leo was happy in the House. He died for some other person’s political ambition.
Ryan was urged by families and constituents who were disturbed by an escapee’s story. She went back down with Ryan and was killed. BTW, Jackie Spiers, Ryan’s aid was wounded –she is now in the house of reps and is active still in cult busting
Cyanide and Laudanum. Unfortunately, the poison acts much, much faster than the narcotic.
FunnyD
speak for yourself :)
And it wasnt Kool Aid either..I think it was fanta or Hi C
I’m sorry for your loss. And sorry that political ambition exacted such a cost from an otherwise decent and competent legislator.
FunnyD
But “drink the Kool Aid” has become a part of our vernacular
Yeah, I left out the bit about stirring the pot and disturbing the sh*t, didn’t I?
:-P
FunnyD
Lisa, you’re right, it wasn’t KoolAid; I believe it was a more generic product, like something you might buy today at Smart and Final.
Yes. And Jonestown is where it comes from. Some surviving family members find its casual use hurtful.
And it was grape FlavorAid, but KoolAid was and is much more familiar here.
FunnyD
Many the gifts,
Many the works.
…
One bread, one body.
Hey, would we get the promised sevenfold return on that, d’ya think?
FunnyD
Pushing progressive agenda or not, and certainly not trying in any way to make light of a profound tragedy, Bob Dylan said, “Don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters.
BillWalker: I don’t know. You’re getting a little too far out for me. I’m just fascinated that Jim Jones and Dan Mitrione were friends and that Mitrione was working for American intelligence in South America and that Jones ended up on that continent. Lots of unanswered questions about that relationship.
State of Siege is a powerful film, by the way.
I just meant some of us are desperate.
Jonestown was really a defining moment for the West Coast, coming ten years after Manon, especially. And yet today there are still cults, sect and religions that work hard to influence politicians form the mainstream of Rick Warren to the ones that have celebrity shills. Some seem to be geniune in their beleifs othes just want power–but they all seem to want things THEIR WAY…I hope this new adminsitration doesnt have their eyes wide shut..
Thank you. I’m still very bitter about it all and feel so sad for all those people who died and their families. I also regret how much Jackie has been through.
And so we winding down…David thank you very much. I think FDL would love to have you back for a follow up wiht your follow up documentary…
Manson?
I’d like to do that very much. Thank you to FireDogLake. For me personally, the freedom of religion and the freedom FROM religion as defined in the Constitution are on an equal footing. After the Jonestown massacre, Jimmy Carter made the statement that this incident is not in any way indicative of American freedom of religion. Sometimes I wonder…
Oh I see control similarities between Jim Jones and Charles Manson, the ability to see into people and provide them with what they want
And he also said
You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Maybe you’ll make a movie about the Wiccans.
Thanks FDLakers for such an awesome chat! And David, yes, you’re welcome back definitely! And yup re constitution.
I’d love to!
Jackie comes across as one very strong lady. I suspect she’s also a very compassionate one.
And I went through a lot of Kleenex the weekend I did my self-imposed, 30th anniversary crash course about Jonestown…the interviews and personal stories and even just the facts demonstrate such suffering.
FunnyD
I never thought about that.
Thanks David and Lisa and everyone! It’s been fun!
FunnyD
I think we all need to have a full length mirror.
Maybe documentaries are part of that.
Go for it.
Thank you David.
I’m enough of a pedant to want to correct an inaccuracy in the article. The denomination that ordained Jones was the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), headquartered in Indianapolis.
That needs to be accurate–I’m an ordained clergy member of the Disciples and was in seminary in Indianapolis at the time of the Jonestown deaths. Over the next several weeks, the atmosphere among church officials and seminary professors (almost all of whom knew Jones before he moved to California) was one of stunned horror. As a result, the process of ordination was considerably tightened up. Mainline denominations everywhere have had trouble, but for the most part the Jim Jones experience seems to have pushed them to opt for “safety” and mutual accountability rather than dynamism in pastoral leadership. I think a Jones (with all his self-focus) could develop a following again in this church, but he would have to be a whole lot more devious on the way there.
Or maybe not. One of the ways he gained credibility seems to have been his ability to mobilize numbers of people, and for church people numbers seem to be self-verifying results: he’s bringing in the people, so he must be doing something right. Someone once told me that there were questions about Jones in the Indiana region of the Disciples. “But would you be quick to raise a fuss and then risk losing about 3% of your region’s members at one go?” my friend asked. –Or have them all show up mad at regional assembly? I’d like to think a manipulator could be found out and removed, but I’m not altogether sure.
At any rate, thanks for the film, for the remembering, and for letting me make this small, but possibly important, correction.
Ken
This is absolutely fascinating stuff, David. I’ve been fascinated by the Jonestown/Jim Jones cult for a long time, and I never came across this information about how politicians were in their pocket most of the time, despite the weirdness and the danger that was going on.
Weird times, then. Ya gotta remember that there were a few other cult groups around. Kind of the tail-end of the 60s hopes of community.
This was after the SLA shootout (in L.A.) and before any knowledge of AIDS.
I recall EST, and Synanon and MindSpring (not sure about that last one, name). Synanon had their main building right on the beach in Santa Monica at the foot of Pico. The building had started life as a famous hotel I think. Anyone walking past could look in the window and check out stuff, although I never saw anything much that was weird.
EST was also cultish — but they had a mission to feed everyone in the world. (Not sure how that worked out.)
I went to a few meetings in 1978 or so, but the people I met just grinned way too much and let me know that ‘they got it’ (and I didn’t.)
It was the EST Seminars that was infamous for not letting anyone go to the bathroom.
Scientology was getting really big then too and bought out the old Cedars- of-Lebanon Hospital building in Hollywood. (Cedars combined with Mount Sinai and is now known as Cedars-Sinai and is in West Hollywood now.)
There was also a group that I recall reading about: I’m not sure which one. Something about leaving snakes in peoples’ maiboxes — obviously they did it to people that the group didn’t like. Seems like that it was in Northern California somewhere. Also maybe stockpiling guns and ammunition.
I could be confused on which group did what.
And then the group in Oregon, who always wore red and took over an entire town — Frances Fitzgerald wrote about them in her 1987 book Cities on a Hill. There were so many of them that they took control of local politcs and made a lot of people mad.
It was a weird time; and of course two very sad expressions came out of that time.
“Drinking the Kool-Aid” from Jim Jones and his Temple.
And the “the Twinkie Defense” which was how Dan White got such a short prison sentence for killing Milk and Moscone in cold blood.
David — did I miss Parts One and Two??
And thanks for this post.
The moonies were really taking off around then too.