So, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that part of the Obama "stimulus" plan is $310 billion in tax cuts for businesses and individuals. If this is the plan, I'm going to predict right now that the stimulus won't be sufficient.
Some of the proposed tax cuts are relatively efficient and progressive, such as an increase to earned income credit. Others, like retroactive tax cuts to businesses, and tax cuts for businesses that "create" jobs, aren't. I say this because a lot of that job creation will be fictional. Take some temporary or contract workers or outsourced jobs, and roll them back in—that's what most of the jobs created will be, not real new jobs. Not to mention the fact that the tax code is so full of holes right now that money rebated by the government will simply be siphoned off by corporations to dividends, off shore havens or executive compensation.
You don't pour money into a bucket with a hole in its bottom, and you don't punch more holes the bottom either.
I've long observed that the only economic policy that Obama really really believes in is tax cuts. During the election, even when no one really cared, he would keep repeating, over and over and over again, that he was going to cut taxes.
The problem is that giving money to people without pricing power (most middle and working class people) is pointless. People with pricing power, like health care providers, credit card companies (who can and will raise rates) and employers (who will take into account that their workers are now taking home more money and thus don't need as much from them) will simply take the money away. And at this time workers and ordinary consumers just don't have pricing power.
Likewise corporations are not going to create real new jobs if there's no demand. Who wants to invest into this economy? This isn't an economy where you hire new people, it's an economy where you take any money you've got and you use it to buy up distressed competitors and properties at generational lows. Then you rationalize your new acquisition with your own company by laying people off. We've just spent the past few months watching this play out in the banking industry, heavily subsidized by the government, now we're going to have to watch the government subsidize buyouts of non-financial companies. If at first giving money to corporations (banks) doesn't work, why not try it with even more companies?
Stimulus at this time should not be tax cuts, it should be spending. Rewire the country's energy infrastructure, make every building energy efficient, rebuild roads, build high speed train corridors on the west and east costs, then connect them to each other. Give cities money to build the trams or subways they've been wanting to build. Push high speed internet out to everyone, and at the same time increase its speed to international standards (i.e. 10x as fast as the crappy "high" speed internet North Americans get). Move to single-payer healthcare and buyout the health insurance companies. Extend UI to 12 months, and create a bunch of programs that folks can work in as was done in the Great Depression.
Spend money and that money will create demand—for all the products needed for all those projects, for the workers to build all the trains, rail lines, roads, power lines, high speed internet, and so on. And you won't just be giving money away to be spent in all the same ways that got us where we are, you'll be refitting the economy. The key thing that hasn't got through the thick skulls of the elites is that the old economy didn't work for the majority of people. It was broken. Even the "prosperity" which the elites had (and they did, they are richer than they have been in a century) was fake—it was based on profits that didn't exist. Wall Street's losses weren't losses, they were the revelation that every profit they made for the last 10 years was fake and based on fraud.
The economy needs to be restructured, and that means spending on restructuring, not giving money to people to spend in the same patterns as they did before. That doesn't mean no money shouldn't be given out, it should. Relief for those who need help should be generous, but the majority of money shouldn't go to handouts, it should go to creating a new America and creating jobs that Americans can work in to help create that new America.
The past 30 years have been tax cut after tax cut. And they have led us here. The solution is not more tax cuts, no matter who they're meant for. It's to stop thinking that tax cuts are the solution, or that "high" tax rates are the problem. They aren't, low tax rates are the problem. The US has cut its tax rates into the verge of a depression. And the solution the geniuses, like Larry Summers, who brought us this disaster, are proposing is more tax cuts? More of the same?
I said the other day that predicting what would happen economically this year would be harder than predicting economic matters in the Bush era, because presumably the Obama administration wouldn't be so ideologically blind and stupid as the Bush administration.
I hope I wasn't wrong, but after reading this, I'm beginning to think I may have been. As I've said for a long time, personnel matters, and Summers and most of the key economic advisers simply are not liberals and do not understand liberalism any more than Obama does. Even when they try and do something liberal, like a large stimulus, they wind up acting like half-baked Chicago school acolytes.
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The Republicans desire to fuck America as hard as possible out of spite and the Democrats seem to be willing to let them. The people we struggled to put into power don’t give a damn about us — not one iota of a scintilla of a damn. We are making a huge mistake thinking that Democrats will stand together somehow to help the nation in this time of need. Since when have Democrats ever stood together.
Harry Reid is a disaster as is the DNC. I just don’t understand what is wrong with calling up the fence sitters and telling them, “Get with the program or you’re royally fucked forever”.
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
This is so crazy that I just don’t understand how the smart people don’t understand it. You can’t create jobs by giving tax cuts. Even I get that and economics is above my pay grade.
Green collar work and jobs are what we need to do. The country needs to reinvent itself. Tax cuts ain’t gonna do that.
The fundamental question is, is the shirt half-empty or half-full?
what makes you think that this isn’t the dem program? They are as much in bed with their corporate masters as the rethugs.
It’s all so damned depressing.
WSJ says:
Prodding companies to create jobs? Hell, for a chunk of $310 million, I, too, can be prodded. Doesn’t mean I’ll actually do anything, but I’m definitely prodable.
Apparently US Policy Experts believe that the US can keep printing money and should continue to operate in the red forever. Any country who disagrees and refuses to cooperate is at risk of finding itself in bad stead with the US/Israel War Machine.
Welcome Ian to the wacky tea party brought to you by your local Madd Hatter and their sponsor:
The Chicago School of Economic Phrenology.
You are starting to get the idea - the damned thing is broken.
away, the nattering nabobs will fill you in.
Spot on Ian and thank you for working while America sleeps.
Jobs, payrolls income for people to pay bills and purchase like consumers and corporate consumers do who get money.
He said he would cut taxes on the workers and that will help them, the state and local governments need big aid to continue services and work orograms for new workers out of schools.
A health care for those not covered will bost the medical sector. Something for each sector of the economy. Thanks for your advise. I hope Obama team gets it.
Mitch McConnell is an issue and a problem. I don’t know if he’s the most psycho of the GOPers but he comes pretty close. Is he being apocalyptic or is he just holding out for a bribe? I think it’s about time some photos of him with young boys start showing up all over the place.
Ian, I believe I understand what you’re driving at (well, more than that–what you’re saying clearly), but this non-economist has a knee-jerk reaction to cut taxes and spend. At least short-term, how can this do anything but drive up our already crushing national debt?
Digg it, Reddit it!
it isn’t just the national debt, though that’s big.
To create jobs there needs to be demand for products/services. How could there possibly be a growth in demand for products or services if people don’t have jobs or incomes or are just trying to make it through the monthly paycheck? Tax cuts without a real stimulus (come on, $500/head? joke!) like say tax credits or rebates to buy and install solar panels on roofs or residential wind turbines or even replacing old single pane windows is meaningless.
Ian’s been right on a lot of things. I would venture that he’s spot on with this too.
i agree. for example, back in mid-october, obama gave a major economic speech. it was all about tax cuts. here’s the comment listing all the policy initiatives that were mentioned in the speech.
Repeatedly I’ve heard since 2001 that Americans have not been asked to sacrifice much of anything for this country. Operative phrase: asked to. Many have sacrificed big time re jobs, pay cuts, benefit cuts, lost houses, etc., etc.
Here’s an off-the-waller. How about a voluntary checkoff on 2008 income tax returns to contribute a buck or several bucks to . . . (and here’s where my swell idea goes all fuzzy, because I can’t frame what would be a safe project/plan for those dollars). Even so…!?
I am officially giving up on Obama if he is really talking about this ginormous tax cut thing as the centerpiece of his recovery plan. Maybe Rick Warren’s prayer will make it all better. Placate GOPers, that’s what we need to do. Obama is a smart man, but his intelligence has been canalized by the system and it looks like he can’t get over the walls of the drainage ditches that his thoughts flow through. And, Plouffe? I want my money back.
I haven’t done all the reading I should on this yet. Does the plan reported on specifically say that there will be no tax cuts? Does one preclude the other?
The new boss is not the same as the old boss. That’s an over exaggeration, premature and just a rantish comment.
What did Sara say to Job? Curse God and Die. Let’s not go there yet.
Yes, I know tax forms/books have already been printed and are likely in the mail. But if we can circulate a kezillion emails trying to save the non-existent Penny Brown, why can’t we become part of the solution, economically? Whatever it is, it has to be easy, because by and large, people aren’t going to bother casting about for a non-profit that will make a measurable difference in short order. Which, of course, is part of the problem with the government. Who believes that behemoth can make anything happen quickly?
OT, MN State Canvassing Board expected to declare Franken winner today. However, Star Tribune goes on to say:
This is what’s called being ‘Left holding the bag.’
We worked ourselves into a frenzy over this whole change thing, only to be left withour even a sorry T-shirt, only the bag.
I’m guessing Americans can’t learn anything while warm and well-fed.
Looks as if we’ll get a chance to try it cold and hungry next time.
Can’t blame it all on the republicans anymore. Now we see, they really are the same.
so what are we going to do?
we can’t just stand by while out country goes to hell. i’m open for suggestions.
Some of what is being said here is a little bit over the top. Through out his campaign Obama said he was going to cut taxes for the middle class while McShame and the rethugs were pushing the meme that Obama would raise taxes. Obama was forced to continue reiterating his tax cuts for the middle class theme in face of the never ending onslaught of the rethugs that taxes would go up. The question is is Obama going to carry through with his promise to raise taxes on the wealthy and when.
363 hrs & 15 min
Been making some, but I also know I’m a naive, wild-eyed idealist on a caffeine buzz. But I absolutely believe “we the people” must mobilize in some way. I’m open to ideas as well, selise!
to supplement thinking on a stimulus plan, in case anyone one missed it, hugh’s got another list: A Christmas list to fix the financial meltdown
I don’t propose we just sit and watch Rome burn. But, there needs to be some thoughtfullness in the debate. Anger blinds and ultimate anger blinds ultimately. First of all, liberals and progressives can encourage their children to become economists, attorneys and politicians. We have to have a power base just like the conservatives. We have to learn to organized affectively. Know where our car keys are and keep the battery charged so that when it’s time to jump in the car we can go.
ah, first item on the agenda: more coffee.
thanks!
i do not think anger blinds or is a bad thing. otherwise agree.
“the only economic policy that Obama really really believes in is tax cuts”
That makes him a Republican.
“That doesn’t mean no money shouldn’t be given out”
*laughs* Three negatives in that sentence. Could you simplify that, please?
*goes back to reading*
Thank you Ian.
I think Obama could really enhance the success of his administration and, the US, by listening to you. My father, a right-winger from way back, holds surprisingly similar views as you, even down to the “University of Chicago Morons”.
When people chose to dance with the devil, only thing to do is enjoy the soiree. The country has chosen ignorance, dissipation, facility over effort, not even speech is held sacred. the foundation itself has become expendable and disreputable. Fallacy any belief have become the cardinal directions. When your lift is a pumpkin pulled by mice, know then the party is over. Hope you have enjoyed your dance with the devil.
Anger can be a healthy response. When it anger is the only or main reaction it can at least cloud the vision for what is going on in a bigger sense and can possibly create inertia.
A site such as FDL is good for education, which is one of the ways we can prepare to affect change. Pile-on comments about how fucked we are, not so much. Just the way I see it. And, of course, it may work differently for other people. But, there’s an awful lot of work being done here, by headliners and commenters, that might seem like a waste of energy if we don’t actually think and learn.
G’Morning, Selise, btw.
I’m not ready to pass judgement on the “new boss’ quite yet.
I think we should at least wait until he actually is the “new boss”!
EDIT: Fallacy and belief …
I’m not sure why you say that to Selise. Is it meant to be personal?
My point here (and my deepest frustration) is that we elect people to represent us who, once sucked into the maelstrom of D.C., seem to lose their progressive compass. For eight agonizing years, we have lamented our sorry state of affairs. We made what we thought were a few gains in 2004, GWB notwithstanding. Many more in 2006. Still more in 2008. And we’re still lamenting. Furthermore, we’re lamenting even as the nation melts down like the wicked witch in Oz. While I get that there are some major infrastructure issues with the Dem party and Congress and, and, and, none of that helps in the immediate need for strong, constructive, workable solutions. Pelosi and Reid seem to be heading up the pussyfoot wing of the Dem party. Obama is clearly testing the waters, though it’s not altogether clear who his focus group is. Most of the people in this country don’t give a horse’s patoot about what’s happening to people in adjecent burbs, cities, counties, states. So do they need to be educated and stirred to action? Yes and yes. But tempus fugit. What’s the short-term solution? And who’s the solutioner?
you know, i really don’t think countries are a monolith that make choices like that. individuals do.
that said, i think your point is valid and i accept the criticism. still trying to learn to make different choices.
We must create third parties and force inclusion/recognition or take to the streets.
I am a bit old fashioned. So, before I condemn something like this, I would like to know more about it.
As a person, who even in his dotage considers himself very well informed on tax issues, I know all tax cuts are not created equal. Moreover, I know certain tax cuts are more effective at different points in the business cycle than at other times. Often the angel and /or devil is in the fine print.
Also, the chart is interesting and may partially reflect reality, but I would like to know more about it as well. It may not be Gospel.
Finally, sometime economics has to take politics into consideration. The greatest economic plan in the world won’t accomplish much if it doesn’t have the votes to become law.
Now, Obama’s plan might be a turkey, but ………….
Fresh snark if folks want some…
an alternative conclusion is that we were wrong, they were not progress to begin with. but their lies and our hopes made us think otherwise.
Of course he doesn’t get to change the tax code on his own, he needs Congress and the way it looks, the Senate may spend a long period of time trying to prevent the seating of at least two Democrats.
Here’s Krugman’s take, Ian
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c.....-tax-cuts/
That is so cynical and totally on target. Oh, selise . . . .
good morning demi.
we see it differently. i don’t mind the how fucked we are comments unless that is all there is. and that isn’t all there is. what really, really irks me is when we confuse wishful thinking for reality. confronting reality may provoke anger and temporary despair, but i don’t see any benefit to attempting to avoid that.
The seating of the two democrats will happen. The rethugs would like to see Coleman but Franken with a 225 vote that ain’t goin to lose. The seating of these two isn’t important until a bill has cleared the house.
361 hrs & 47 min
(((barbara)))
we’re good. i took it as a general comment.
“Pelosi and Reid seem to be heading up the pussyfoot wing of the Dem party.”
I think they are co-conspirators in the single party effort to run America for the benefit of the wealthy and the corporations. That involves destroying the destruction of those things most Americans are taught to think of when they see the flag, like truth, justice and equality.
Obama still thinks the economy can be fixed by tweaking it. That’s why he’s trying such traditional approaches even though the efficacy of these is doubtful. In other words, Obama is very much part of those elites of which you speak.
destroyingWhen discussing that a good deal of the bailout money is being used by financial institutions to purchase others, I don’t hear mention that this is creating more “too big to fail” enterprises. The management of “too big to fail” enterprises possess the ultimate license to “steal.” They can lose as much as they like and their account will always be replenished. Any plan to correct the problems in our economic system must include provision to break up these enterprises into ones which are not “too big to fail.”
It seems like the problem is that demand for goods and services has fallen through the floor. The solution is to create demand. The engine for doing that is government spending. Tax cuts won’t create demand, especially tax cuts for business and the rich.
I have thought that Krugman has been behind the curve on several aspects of the meltdown but he is right about this as is Ian. This is too tax cut heavy. I would actually do away with the tax cuts for the wealthy. That’s excess cash that wouldn’t be used productively anyway.
I think part of the problem is that Obama’s people really don’t have many ideas about how to spend the money in the stimulus so they are going to tax cuts to make up the difference.
I would also point out parenthetically that telecoms have already received some $200 billion in fees from customers which were supposed to be applied to building a high speed internet system. They took the money but of course did not build the system.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: You are a much nicer person than I. :)
(am upstairs now, tho.)
how can that be?
i don’t even like to shop (well, except for plant nurseries and book stores), but give me a budget of $1 Trillion and i would have no problem thinking up ways of spending it on stuff for the country. do they have no imagination?
LOL. don’t count it - i’m pretty sure everyone who knows me in real life thinks i excel at being a pain in the ass.
i keep forgetting that one. thanks for the reminder.
It has long been observed that a new president’s greatest freedom of action lies in implementing the platform of his opponent. His/her side will support him/her out of loyalty, while the other side will go along because they’re getting what they want, e.g., Lyndon Johnson went to war within months of winning the ‘64 election on a peace platform.
IMHO, PEBO is exploiting this principle to a ridiculous extent. I, for one, voted against Hillary because I detested her foreign policy proclivities, e.g., the talk about “obliterating” Iran.
So, I’m not surprised that he’ll emphasize take cuts in his economic policy. I’m sure it’s what his advisors are advising.
Tie your shoes. Look where you’re going. Don’t fall on your face.
Maintain your superior position of being humble. Look up to others. Listen.
Stop smoking! Say “Please” or “Thank you” as is relevant.
Have your shrieking screaming fit in private.
Make polite suggestions at www.change.gov and pray things go well.