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	<title>Comments on: War without Accountability = Disaster</title>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781673</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 03:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781673</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;and therefore we shouldn’t blame the puny forces of al Qaeda  for flying those planes into the buildings in the powerful USA.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and therefore we shouldn’t blame the puny forces of al Qaeda  for flying those planes into the buildings in the powerful USA.</p>
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		<title>By: andre</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781178</link>
		<dc:creator>andre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781178</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;THIS IS THE FIGHT BETWEEN EVIL AND GOOD&lt;br /&gt;
usa,israel&amp; co are evil the Palestine is good&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THIS IS THE FIGHT BETWEEN EVIL AND GOOD<br />
usa,israel&amp; co are evil the Palestine is good</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781176</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781176</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Except, RiderOnTheStorm and Macaquerman, that one side is far, far, more powerful than the other, and therefore has far, far greater options and a far, far greater share of the responsibility. When people denounce Hamas, they should always remember that Hamas would not even exist in its current form if Israel had not done everything in its power to undermine secular Palestinian leaders. Israel actually subsidized Hamas back in the 80’s, in order to draw support away from the PLO. After the first Intafada and the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians thought Israel would eventually pull back and let them build a rump state on the 22% percent of Palestine that they thought the Israelis were willing to give back in return for peace. But of course, the Israelis betrayed the Palestinians again, and kept stealing more land every single day. They deprived the Palestinian Authority of resources needed to actually solve the Palestinians many problems, but did give the Palestinians secular leader some small personal privileges like free travel and cooperation in getting licenses from the Israelis, that gave the Palestinian leaders the opportunity to become personally corrupt. As many of the secular Palestinian leaders did became corrupt and/or ineffectual, the Palestinian people naturally looked for some leadership that was not entirely in Israel’s pocket, and Hamas was practically the only option they had. And then, when the Palestinians actually dared to vote democratically for Hamas, the Israelis and the Americans told the Palestinians they couldn’t have a democracy, and began the long siege that culminated in this invasion. Which is why it’s laughably pathetic to try to pretend that the Palestinians, who can do almost nothing to the Israelis, are equally culpable with the Israelis, who can do almost anything they want to the Palestinians.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except, RiderOnTheStorm and Macaquerman, that one side is far, far, more powerful than the other, and therefore has far, far greater options and a far, far greater share of the responsibility. When people denounce Hamas, they should always remember that Hamas would not even exist in its current form if Israel had not done everything in its power to undermine secular Palestinian leaders. Israel actually subsidized Hamas back in the 80’s, in order to draw support away from the PLO. After the first Intafada and the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians thought Israel would eventually pull back and let them build a rump state on the 22% percent of Palestine that they thought the Israelis were willing to give back in return for peace. But of course, the Israelis betrayed the Palestinians again, and kept stealing more land every single day. They deprived the Palestinian Authority of resources needed to actually solve the Palestinians many problems, but did give the Palestinians secular leader some small personal privileges like free travel and cooperation in getting licenses from the Israelis, that gave the Palestinian leaders the opportunity to become personally corrupt. As many of the secular Palestinian leaders did became corrupt and/or ineffectual, the Palestinian people naturally looked for some leadership that was not entirely in Israel’s pocket, and Hamas was practically the only option they had. And then, when the Palestinians actually dared to vote democratically for Hamas, the Israelis and the Americans told the Palestinians they couldn’t have a democracy, and began the long siege that culminated in this invasion. Which is why it’s laughably pathetic to try to pretend that the Palestinians, who can do almost nothing to the Israelis, are equally culpable with the Israelis, who can do almost anything they want to the Palestinians.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781087</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781087</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Absolutely. This is a fight between two forces that exist to make each other miserable. They are rapidly losing all decency.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely. This is a fight between two forces that exist to make each other miserable. They are rapidly losing all decency.</p>
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		<title>By: DrDick</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781086</link>
		<dc:creator>DrDick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781086</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;First, I did not say the number in Gaza is small, I said that there were far more Palestinian refugees living outside of Gaza and the West Bank, which is true since only about 1/3 of the Palestinians live in those areas.  That is not at all the same as saying the numbers in Gaza are small.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Second, I expressly acknowledged that the “Arab” (FWIW Egyptians are not for the most part actually Arabs) neighbors do not want any more Palestinian refugess and gave reasons for that.  Given that Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the primary opposition to Pres. Mubarak, Egypt is even more reluctant to do so for obvious political reasons.  I am not justifying their response, I am saying that they have no moral or other obligation to aid and abet Israel’s ethnic cleansing (a crime against humanity).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I do not and did not dispute that a “de facto” state of war exists between Israel and the Palestinians.  I in fact stated expressly that the Israeli blockade constitutes an act of war.  I agree completely that Hamas should stop its missile attacks, but likewise Israel must also lift the blockade and withdraw ALL settlements from the West Bank and Gaza and cease its military incursions onto Palestinian lands.  See also my post above with the Kadima and Likud platforms.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Where I come from, a democratically elected government is in fact legitimate.  The fact that the Israelis and American neocons do not like the government that the Palestinians have chosen (preferring, I suppose a Fatah puppet government), holds no water in this matter.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have no idea (other than pro-Isreali commenters) who might have asserted that anybody has a divine right to any of that land.  It was certainly not me.  Any rights that the Palestinians have accrue from 2000 years of continuous occupancy of Palestine following the Roman dispersal of the Hebrews.  The Israeli right to the lands within the 1967 borders dates to their successful terrorist campaign against the British and Palestinians in the late 1940s and the ultimate recognition of the state of Israel in 1949.  They have the right to those lands, but not to those in Gaza and the West Bank.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am not singling out Israel for blame, both sides are in the wrong.  I am merely pointing out that they share the blame.  I should also point out that their actions are extremely disproportionate to those of  the Palestinians.  In the first day of aerial bombardment, the Israelis killed more people and did more damage than all of the Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks combined.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I did not say the number in Gaza is small, I said that there were far more Palestinian refugees living outside of Gaza and the West Bank, which is true since only about 1/3 of the Palestinians live in those areas.  That is not at all the same as saying the numbers in Gaza are small.</p>
<p>Second, I expressly acknowledged that the “Arab” (FWIW Egyptians are not for the most part actually Arabs) neighbors do not want any more Palestinian refugess and gave reasons for that.  Given that Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the primary opposition to Pres. Mubarak, Egypt is even more reluctant to do so for obvious political reasons.  I am not justifying their response, I am saying that they have no moral or other obligation to aid and abet Israel’s ethnic cleansing (a crime against humanity).</p>
<p>I do not and did not dispute that a “de facto” state of war exists between Israel and the Palestinians.  I in fact stated expressly that the Israeli blockade constitutes an act of war.  I agree completely that Hamas should stop its missile attacks, but likewise Israel must also lift the blockade and withdraw ALL settlements from the West Bank and Gaza and cease its military incursions onto Palestinian lands.  See also my post above with the Kadima and Likud platforms.</p>
<p>Where I come from, a democratically elected government is in fact legitimate.  The fact that the Israelis and American neocons do not like the government that the Palestinians have chosen (preferring, I suppose a Fatah puppet government), holds no water in this matter.</p>
<p>I have no idea (other than pro-Isreali commenters) who might have asserted that anybody has a divine right to any of that land.  It was certainly not me.  Any rights that the Palestinians have accrue from 2000 years of continuous occupancy of Palestine following the Roman dispersal of the Hebrews.  The Israeli right to the lands within the 1967 borders dates to their successful terrorist campaign against the British and Palestinians in the late 1940s and the ultimate recognition of the state of Israel in 1949.  They have the right to those lands, but not to those in Gaza and the West Bank.</p>
<p>I am not singling out Israel for blame, both sides are in the wrong.  I am merely pointing out that they share the blame.  I should also point out that their actions are extremely disproportionate to those of  the Palestinians.  In the first day of aerial bombardment, the Israelis killed more people and did more damage than all of the Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks combined.</p>
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		<title>By: reader</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781082</link>
		<dc:creator>reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781082</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;DrDick @ 56&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;”… There is no justification of the Israeli actions which does not equally justify those of the Palestinians.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perfectly said.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DrDick @ 56</p>
<p>”… There is no justification of the Israeli actions which does not equally justify those of the Palestinians.”</p>
<p>Perfectly said.</p>
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		<title>By: TobyWollin</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781075</link>
		<dc:creator>TobyWollin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781075</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jane is upstairs with news on employee Free Choice.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jane is upstairs with news on employee Free Choice.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781070</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781070</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;i have not read it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i have not read it.</p>
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		<title>By: RiderOnTheStorm</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781069</link>
		<dc:creator>RiderOnTheStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781069</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;First, I am not the one who said the number is small: you were.  I merely responded to your assertion, generously presuming it to be true for the sake of argument.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Second, I’m well aware of the region’s geography.  I’m equally well aware that the border with Egypt would quickly be opened IF the Egyptians agreed — and they would quite likely agree if asked by multiple Arab neighbors in the region who agreed to deal with the influx.  (I trust it’s clear that the Egyptians are highly averse to housing the Palestinian population within their borders, so gaining their agreement would require having a plan in place to relocate them elsewhere.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Third, a de facto state of war exists between the Palestinian government in Gaza — Hamas — and Israel.  (This is generously presuming that one accepts Hamas as the legitimate government, but let’s run with that for a moment.)  Hamas members are engaged in active, armed combat with Israeli forces — that is, they are legitimate military targets.  If they do not wish to be military targets, then they need to cease the attacks — ALL of them.  I don’t think that’s particularly likely — I think it’s far more likely that cowardly Hamas fighters will continue to put innocent Palestinian civilians in harm’s way by hiding among them and will continue to attack Israeli civilian targets rather than going after the IDF.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And finally, as to the ridiculous nonsense that ANYONE has a valid claim to any of this land, based on primitive superstitions or millenia of rumor: this is precisely the foolishness that got us here.  Those who are tired of endless war need to come up with a viable plan for resettling anyone/everyone anywhere/everywhere.  (Note my half-serious suggestion of a few days ago that we should have given the Jewish population a chunk of Utah 60 years ago.  I suppose I could make the same half-serious suggestion about the Palestinians now.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I am not the one who said the number is small: you were.  I merely responded to your assertion, generously presuming it to be true for the sake of argument.</p>
<p>Second, I’m well aware of the region’s geography.  I’m equally well aware that the border with Egypt would quickly be opened IF the Egyptians agreed — and they would quite likely agree if asked by multiple Arab neighbors in the region who agreed to deal with the influx.  (I trust it’s clear that the Egyptians are highly averse to housing the Palestinian population within their borders, so gaining their agreement would require having a plan in place to relocate them elsewhere.)</p>
<p>Third, a de facto state of war exists between the Palestinian government in Gaza — Hamas — and Israel.  (This is generously presuming that one accepts Hamas as the legitimate government, but let’s run with that for a moment.)  Hamas members are engaged in active, armed combat with Israeli forces — that is, they are legitimate military targets.  If they do not wish to be military targets, then they need to cease the attacks — ALL of them.  I don’t think that’s particularly likely — I think it’s far more likely that cowardly Hamas fighters will continue to put innocent Palestinian civilians in harm’s way by hiding among them and will continue to attack Israeli civilian targets rather than going after the IDF.</p>
<p>And finally, as to the ridiculous nonsense that ANYONE has a valid claim to any of this land, based on primitive superstitions or millenia of rumor: this is precisely the foolishness that got us here.  Those who are tired of endless war need to come up with a viable plan for resettling anyone/everyone anywhere/everywhere.  (Note my half-serious suggestion of a few days ago that we should have given the Jewish population a chunk of Utah 60 years ago.  I suppose I could make the same half-serious suggestion about the Palestinians now.)</p>
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		<title>By: acquarius74</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781068</link>
		<dc:creator>acquarius74</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/war-without-accountability-disaster/#comment-1781068</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;selise, I noted your comments and links on the previous thread and will go back and try to do justice to them.  I was so overwhelmed by bluebutterfly’s links that haven’t had time to study yours.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On the topic of Israel/Palestine, have you read a book entitled:&lt;br /&gt;
‘Churchill’s Promised Land’ by Michael Makovsky ?  I read excerpts from it on Google Books (search page 216, 217).  I’ve ordered it.  I realize it must be read with care due to the author’s bio.  I want it for the documents it allegedly contains pertaining to the origin of the state of Israel and the deals cut by Churchill and FDR back in 1943/1944 regarding same.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>selise, I noted your comments and links on the previous thread and will go back and try to do justice to them.  I was so overwhelmed by bluebutterfly’s links that haven’t had time to study yours.</p>
<p>On the topic of Israel/Palestine, have you read a book entitled:<br />
‘Churchill’s Promised Land’ by Michael Makovsky ?  I read excerpts from it on Google Books (search page 216, 217).  I’ve ordered it.  I realize it must be read with care due to the author’s bio.  I want it for the documents it allegedly contains pertaining to the origin of the state of Israel and the deals cut by Churchill and FDR back in 1943/1944 regarding same.</p>
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