It is ethnic cleansing. Will Susan Rice get on board in time? No. Too late, too late.

People are getting slaughtered and it’s wrong no matter what you call it.

What are they thinking? Is this the beginning of the war with Iran that the neocons so desperately want??

Foothillsmike, how many hours do neocons have to declare war on Iran? Or do we declare war? I guess we just attack the hell out of ‘em and call it “bringing democracy to ‘em.”

This crap will not end until the hate manifesto old testament is totally debunked
386 hrs & 10 min

The goal of Israel all along has been to drive the Palestinians from Palestine. Whether or not they’ve publicly admitted to such an action is immaterial.

imo we need to be very, very wary of our “humanitarian” foreign policy experts. i don’t know susan rice, but samatha powers is an extremely dangerous warmonger. the clue is this: do they ever point out the humanitarian crises that we perpetuate or support? or are “humanitarian” concerns used to justification for usa military actions?

btw, won’t repeat them but i left a bunch of links on the previous thread that are on topic here.

And it appears that the only way to drive them from Palestine is to slaughter them. I’m endlessly amazed at the parallel between this and Israel’s past. They have become the very persecutors that dogged their heels over centuries.

Good distinction and good question. Here’s another NYTimes piece about her.

That’s enough hours for some serious damage. I wonder if Obama is doing anything behind the scenes.

Perhaps..I suspect that is why US troops are permanently stationed in Israel.

Susan Rice has ties to Maine:

http://pressherald.mainetoday……8;ac=phnws

Let’s hope she makes us proud.

Interesting. I assumed she was single for some reason.

Wrong Rice. *g*

I doubt it unless he is tougher than every president from Nixon onward.

Israel asks Bush to explain its ’special relationship’ with US to Obama.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1040967.html

Israel is killing cats in a box and as one caller pointed out this morning on C-SPAN…this would be no different than China’s military storming & surrounding Tibet! So true. Disgusting.

All of which serves to completely distract the global community from Iraq and Afghanistan — the collateral damage twins.

Here’s an interesting statement from the article you posted (emphasis mine):

“I can’t recall that anyone in the [U.S.] administration, including in the last couple of days, advised me or any of my official representatives not to take any action that we will deem necessary for the fundamental security of the state of Israel, and that includes Iran,” Olmert said.

Basically Olmert is saying if Israel wants to attack Iran no one in the Bush Regime is saying they can’t.

thanks for the link. could just be the nyt and not her, but as a protégé of albright, i’d like to see her say something about our sanctions regime and bombing of iraq during the clinton era. albright has admitted (on 60 minutes iirc) that we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousand of iraqis under the age of 5. denis halliday called our actions genocidal. he and hans von sponeck (both resigned their positions in the UN in protest of iraq sanctions) wrote opeds on the subject (none, to my knowledge ever accepted for publication in the usa).

here are some links:
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1129-03.htm
http://www.medialens.org/alert…..nocide.HTM
http://www.transnational.org/S…..oneck.html

also something good to remember as we rightly condemn what is being done to the palestinians.

How special, indeed.

You meant Condi Rice, so here is her explanation of why she is single. No mention of her live and joint mortgage holding lady friend Randy Bean.

http://en.apa.az/news.php?id=94532

Interesting links. Thanks. Had absolutely no idea there was a UN humanitarian coordinator. Not much evidence of same. Wonder who is the humanitarian coordinator for Palestine. (That’s a wee joke, I fear.)

When I first read that I thought of “I don’t recall Gonzo”. And yes, you are correct. Nobody said”no”.

I have opened up the Digg..

The US has to either step-up and stop Israel, or get out of the way, so the rest of the world can.
WTF did the people of Palestine do to deserve what Israel has visited on them over the last 60 odd years?
I don’t care which G*D you worship, but aren’t the people of Palestine today the descendants of those who lived by, walked with, were friends and neighbors of Jesus and his family?

John Austin MP

‘Speaking at the UN General Assembly on 12 September 2002, George W Bush said: ‘Are Security Council Resolutions to be honoured and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant? …We want the resolutions of the world’s most important multilateral body to be enforced’.

George Bush and Tony Blair tell us that failure to act on UN resolutions brings the UN into disrepute. Yet neither does anything whilst Israel flouts resolution after resolution. No wonder there are accusations of double standards.’
http://nogw.com/ilrunshow.html

Lots of info/links here
http://www.palestine-pmc.com/d…..038;id=179

Partial list of UN resolutions brought against Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…..ing_Israel

http://www.globalpolicy.org/se…..nindex.htm

What about Israel’s defiance of UN Resolutions?
An Open Letter to George W. Bush ::
http://www.mediamonitors.net/m…..ouni1.html
(also has list of UN resolutions ignored by Israel)

Yup..it is confirmation that Israel runs US policy.

Oops. Had no idea there is/was a UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq.

I FDL’d almost all day yesterday. A first for me. I think I must go accomplish something in this chaotic household. Have a great day. Go, Vikes!

Really cool interactive on Egypt at the WaPo.

I wonder if this is where Obama will give his mid-east speech within the first 100 days. (If he does give the speech.)

yeah, well i figure we weren’t supposed to know what halliday and von sponeck were saying. likewise maybe most israelis are missing much of what is being done to palestinians.

And it appears that the only way to drive them from Palestine is to slaughter them. I’m endlessly amazed at the parallel between this and Israel’s past. They have become the very persecutors that dogged their heels over centuries.

~Barbara

Me, too. It boggles the mind.

In June 2007,Kevin Kennedy was the UN Humanitarian coordinator for oPT. The situation in Gaza was horrific then, too.

http://www.emro.who.int/palest…..130607.pdf

Peterr is upstairs…

dear family friend just left egypt for jordan and is supposed to then go to israel. educational holiday (he’s only 19 and first trip out of the usa).

I think you are probably right about the general incoherence of this attack, but I do not think we can overlook the commitment of the leading Israeli political parties to ethnic cleansing.

From the Kadima platform:

The Israeli nation has a national and historic right to the whole of Israel. However, in order to maintain a Jewish majority, part of the Land of Israel must be given up to maintain a Jewish and democratic state.

Israel shall remain a Jewish state and homeland. Jewish majority in Israel will be preserved by territorial concessions to Palestinians.

Jerusalem and large settlement blocks in the West Bank will be kept under Israeli control.

The Israeli national agenda to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and achieve two states for two nations will be the road map. It will be carried out in stages: dismantling terror organizations, collecting firearms, implementing security reforms in the Palestinian Authority, and preventing incitement. At the end of the process, a demilitarized Palestinian state devoid of terror will be established.

Israel’s political system will be modified to ensure stability: Legislative proposals will be made to increase the MKs’ commitment to enable the public’s bypassing central committees and vote contractors, and bring an end to the tyranny of the Likud Central Committee. One possibility would be holding primary, regional and personal elections to the Knesset and the Prime Minister’s office. Kadima would not rule out a future coalition partnership with any Israeli political party or person.

Kadima wants to see a “presidential” system, in which voters choose the prime minister and legislators on an individual basis and not as part of a party list, with Knesset members elected according to specific regions of the country.

From the Likud Platform:

Declaration of a State

A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.

Settlements

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

The Partition of the Negev

Israel rejects out of hand ideas raised by Labor Party leaders concerning the relinquishment of parts of the Negev to the Palestinians. The practical meaning of this plan is that the “Green Line” should no longer be viewed as a “Red Line”, which draws us closer to the partition plan of 1947 as it opens the door to the principle that the fate of the Galilee, the Triangle and additional areas within Israel is negotiable. The Likud asserts that such proposals by the Labor Party leadership may literally cause the dismemberment of the State of Israel.

These are rather clear statements of their intent to eliminate the Palestinians from “Greater Israel.” The Israeli leadership, along with the Hamas leadership, are the greatest barriers to peace in the Middle East.

The lack of a response from the greater Arab community is telling. They could, of course, quite easily evacuate and accommodate all of the Palestinians in Gaza. (I would think most likely via Egypt, since it shares a border.)

But they have done nothing and show no signs of doing anything, as far as I can tell after a lot of research and reading. Oh, they protest at the Israeli invasion, to be sure, and they make their political points from it, but none of them have actually taken action to move the civilians out of harm’s way. (I can’t even find any evidence indicating that they’ve tried.) It seems to me that they’re content to watch Gaza residents die as long as it helps them rally support from their base.

MTP: Harry Reid blathered on for a while and then there was a totally uninformative discussion about Gaza. The only surprise was how they tried to make this all about Iran.

First, why should they take them? The Palestinians have a right to live undisturbed in the Gaza and West Bank. Secondly, all of the neighboring countries already house hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees. There are currently about 4 million Palestinian refugees living in these countries, far more than the number currently living in the West Bank and Gaza.

The only base that they are “rallying” support from is the US.
385 hrs & 0 min

Per Aluf Benn at Haaretz:

WASHINGTON – Israel is asking U.S. President George W. Bush to describe to his successor, Barack Obama, the American commitment to ensure that its strategic deterrence is not compromised. The subject was the focus of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s farewell meeting in the White House on Monday with Bush and top administration officials.

“I discussed with the president and his most senior staff issues connected to the core of the special relationship between Israel and the U.S., strategic matters of the utmost importance, and the ability to preserve those ties in the coming years,” Olmert told reporters Tuesday.

Top administration officials told Olmert there was no point in a presidential letter from Bush, since it would not bind Obama. The sides decided instead on a list, compiled by the White House and delivered to Obama’s transition team, that reviews all understandings and agreements.

[…]

Per Glenzilla quoting George Washington’s farewell address:

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? . . . . .

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.

It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. . . .

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

Leave it to Israel to copy the US.

If you cannot whoop a far weaker army (Lebanon – 2006), first starve and stress a far weaker “enemy” (Gaza) first, THEN attack.

Worked for the US in Iraq.

The lack of a response from the greater Arab community is telling. They could, of course, quite easily evacuate and accommodate all of the Palestinians in Gaza. (I would think most likely via Egypt, since it shares a border.)

What makes anyone think that such options would solve anything, except perhaps to facilitate Israeli efforts at ethnic cleansing.

Note that the region’s Jewish population is welcome elsewhere, many having immigrated from elsewhere, but that hasn’t solved anything either.

I don’t think the Palestinians are popular in the arab word except for their propaganda value.

I don’t know if this is true for sure, but that is my sense and I don’t know why they are discriminated against. For the most part they are farmers and not nomads like the Saidis. But they are industrious hard workers and are known to be “exploited” in the region when work needs to be done – import and hire the Palestinians.

The other odd thing is that the oil states are so rich they could effective provide a shiny new homeland to these people outside of Palestine. Populations have been relocated in the past. Heck the jews are bringing in people to their land all the time in as large a number as they can. Resettlement is something which the oil states should at least offer.

But it seems that instead, they exploit the people of the region because they are afraid to confront Israel directly, despite the fact that they want to get rid of the jewish state in the region. I’d call it racism or whatever, but I don’t think the arabs care for the jews (and the reverse is true as well).

Israel knowing that they are not welcome there has adopted an aggressive foreign policy which is meant to intimidate the region. AND they clearly want to expand to the Jordan River and expel the arabs from Gaza. That seems to be the plan.

Theocracies need to be established on Islands ONLY. hahahaha

I should have added that the presence of these Palestinians among Israel’s Arab neighbors, many of whom have been there since 1948, have placed huge burdens on the governments of those countries. None of these countries is wealthy and the material burden is significant. There are also significant social and political costs associated with such a large group of unassimilatable, politically radicalized people. SanderO is correct, that the Palestinians are not terribly popular among the governments of Israel’s neighbors. Most of them support the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank in large part because they hope to send their Palestinians home in the near future.

Most of them support the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank in large part because they hope to send their Palestinians home in the near future.

At the rate they are going what would they be going “home” to. Their homes for the most part have been leveled. There is a point where home ceases to exist.

oops 384 hrs & 24 min

First, see the excellent points made by Sander (below).

Second, because it would — albeit temporarily — defuse the situation. It would move civilians out of harm’s way. It is by no means a permanent solution (I’m not sure a permanent solution event exists) but as mitigation it would be effective.

Third, because a number of neighboring states are immensely wealthy — c.f. Saudi Arabia — and could do so at trifling cost.

Fourth, because, if as you say, the number is Gaza is small compared to the number already there, then this only represents an incremental increase and not a major influx.

Fifth, because — at this very moment — any number of them are prattling on about their “deep concern for the Palestinian people”, while simultaneously doing everything they possibly can to avoid lifting a finger to put that purported concern into action.

And sixth it would accomplish Israel’s real goal which is the ethnic cleansing of the rest of Palestine.

I don’t believe that this is true, or that it’s their goal. The Arab states depend in large part for their political support on an anti-Israel, anti-US stance. It thus serves their purpose to highlight any (real or purported) actions by either country, since doing so distracts from their own domestic problems and issues. It’s easy for them to engage in cheap political theater by demonizing either/both countries — and often, by blaming them for their myriad self-inflicted problems — thus providing a convenient scapegoat and deflecting attention from real underlying causes.

Thus, “we have a poor educational system because it’s run by theocrats who value dogma over science” is replaced with “our students have no job prospects because the evil US hates us”. And so on. This approach is actively aided and abetted by the religious leaders, since of course maintaining their political power requires a population devoid of skepticism and reduced to slogans.

So I’m sure that privately, some of those states — who care little about the Palestinians in any humanitarian sense — welcome these recent events in Gaza, since they can recycle their decades-old talking points, whip up sentiment among the population, and marginalize competing points of view.

I agree.

Marcy is upstairs covering the Reid/jackson thing.

I have an alternative proposal. Israel ceases its total blockade of Gaza and stops starving them and denying them access to proper medical care. It also stops it current incursion and associated war crimes. Then there is no need for the Palestinians to go anywhere (forcing them out is called “ethnic cleansing and constitutes both a war crime and a crime against humanity).

Second, the number in Gaza, 1.5 million. is far from “small” and would cause much more than an incremental increase in Egypt (the only actual “Arab” neighbor to Gaza), which currently houses less than 100,000.

Saudi Arabia does not in fact share a border with Israel and does not constitute a “neighbor” in this sense. Just how are they supposed to get there when Israel has them blockaded and currently basically shoots every Palestinian that sticks their head outside?

No, the Palestinians do not have a right to live undisturbed in Gaza as long as they’re involved in a war with the Israelis.

Raaaaght and the closed border between Egypt and Gaza is closed by the US and Israel.
383 hrs & 56 min

Then the reverse is true that the Israelis do not have the right to live in peace as long as they are involved in a war with the Palestinians and the blockade constitutes an act of war. It was just such a blockade that provided the justification of the Israeli conquest of Gaza in the first place. There is no justification of the Israeli actions which does not equally justify those of the Palestinians.

Look farther down the road, bb, — just Iran?? or ultimately world domination? That’s almost accomplished already, either militarily or economically. [withhold aid, food, medicine; loans from IMF and World Bank (really US controlled institutions), etc.]

I left responses to 2 of your comments at the last thread. Those links you gave should be posted again here and all over the ‘internets’.

I appreciate all that you share with us. May you live long and prosperously!

selise, I noted your comments and links on the previous thread and will go back and try to do justice to them. I was so overwhelmed by bluebutterfly’s links that haven’t had time to study yours.

On the topic of Israel/Palestine, have you read a book entitled:
‘Churchill’s Promised Land’ by Michael Makovsky ? I read excerpts from it on Google Books (search page 216, 217). I’ve ordered it. I realize it must be read with care due to the author’s bio. I want it for the documents it allegedly contains pertaining to the origin of the state of Israel and the deals cut by Churchill and FDR back in 1943/1944 regarding same.

First, I am not the one who said the number is small: you were. I merely responded to your assertion, generously presuming it to be true for the sake of argument.

Second, I’m well aware of the region’s geography. I’m equally well aware that the border with Egypt would quickly be opened IF the Egyptians agreed — and they would quite likely agree if asked by multiple Arab neighbors in the region who agreed to deal with the influx. (I trust it’s clear that the Egyptians are highly averse to housing the Palestinian population within their borders, so gaining their agreement would require having a plan in place to relocate them elsewhere.)

Third, a de facto state of war exists between the Palestinian government in Gaza — Hamas — and Israel. (This is generously presuming that one accepts Hamas as the legitimate government, but let’s run with that for a moment.) Hamas members are engaged in active, armed combat with Israeli forces — that is, they are legitimate military targets. If they do not wish to be military targets, then they need to cease the attacks — ALL of them. I don’t think that’s particularly likely — I think it’s far more likely that cowardly Hamas fighters will continue to put innocent Palestinian civilians in harm’s way by hiding among them and will continue to attack Israeli civilian targets rather than going after the IDF.

And finally, as to the ridiculous nonsense that ANYONE has a valid claim to any of this land, based on primitive superstitions or millenia of rumor: this is precisely the foolishness that got us here. Those who are tired of endless war need to come up with a viable plan for resettling anyone/everyone anywhere/everywhere. (Note my half-serious suggestion of a few days ago that we should have given the Jewish population a chunk of Utah 60 years ago. I suppose I could make the same half-serious suggestion about the Palestinians now.)

i have not read it.

Jane is upstairs with news on employee Free Choice.

DrDick @ 56

”… There is no justification of the Israeli actions which does not equally justify those of the Palestinians.”

Perfectly said.

First, I did not say the number in Gaza is small, I said that there were far more Palestinian refugees living outside of Gaza and the West Bank, which is true since only about 1/3 of the Palestinians live in those areas. That is not at all the same as saying the numbers in Gaza are small.

Second, I expressly acknowledged that the “Arab” (FWIW Egyptians are not for the most part actually Arabs) neighbors do not want any more Palestinian refugess and gave reasons for that. Given that Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the primary opposition to Pres. Mubarak, Egypt is even more reluctant to do so for obvious political reasons. I am not justifying their response, I am saying that they have no moral or other obligation to aid and abet Israel’s ethnic cleansing (a crime against humanity).

I do not and did not dispute that a “de facto” state of war exists between Israel and the Palestinians. I in fact stated expressly that the Israeli blockade constitutes an act of war. I agree completely that Hamas should stop its missile attacks, but likewise Israel must also lift the blockade and withdraw ALL settlements from the West Bank and Gaza and cease its military incursions onto Palestinian lands. See also my post above with the Kadima and Likud platforms.

Where I come from, a democratically elected government is in fact legitimate. The fact that the Israelis and American neocons do not like the government that the Palestinians have chosen (preferring, I suppose a Fatah puppet government), holds no water in this matter.

I have no idea (other than pro-Isreali commenters) who might have asserted that anybody has a divine right to any of that land. It was certainly not me. Any rights that the Palestinians have accrue from 2000 years of continuous occupancy of Palestine following the Roman dispersal of the Hebrews. The Israeli right to the lands within the 1967 borders dates to their successful terrorist campaign against the British and Palestinians in the late 1940s and the ultimate recognition of the state of Israel in 1949. They have the right to those lands, but not to those in Gaza and the West Bank.

I am not singling out Israel for blame, both sides are in the wrong. I am merely pointing out that they share the blame. I should also point out that their actions are extremely disproportionate to those of the Palestinians. In the first day of aerial bombardment, the Israelis killed more people and did more damage than all of the Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks combined.

Absolutely. This is a fight between two forces that exist to make each other miserable. They are rapidly losing all decency.

Except, RiderOnTheStorm and Macaquerman, that one side is far, far, more powerful than the other, and therefore has far, far greater options and a far, far greater share of the responsibility. When people denounce Hamas, they should always remember that Hamas would not even exist in its current form if Israel had not done everything in its power to undermine secular Palestinian leaders. Israel actually subsidized Hamas back in the 80’s, in order to draw support away from the PLO. After the first Intafada and the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians thought Israel would eventually pull back and let them build a rump state on the 22% percent of Palestine that they thought the Israelis were willing to give back in return for peace. But of course, the Israelis betrayed the Palestinians again, and kept stealing more land every single day. They deprived the Palestinian Authority of resources needed to actually solve the Palestinians many problems, but did give the Palestinians secular leader some small personal privileges like free travel and cooperation in getting licenses from the Israelis, that gave the Palestinian leaders the opportunity to become personally corrupt. As many of the secular Palestinian leaders did became corrupt and/or ineffectual, the Palestinian people naturally looked for some leadership that was not entirely in Israel’s pocket, and Hamas was practically the only option they had. And then, when the Palestinians actually dared to vote democratically for Hamas, the Israelis and the Americans told the Palestinians they couldn’t have a democracy, and began the long siege that culminated in this invasion. Which is why it’s laughably pathetic to try to pretend that the Palestinians, who can do almost nothing to the Israelis, are equally culpable with the Israelis, who can do almost anything they want to the Palestinians.

THIS IS THE FIGHT BETWEEN EVIL AND GOOD
usa,israel& co are evil the Palestine is good

and therefore we shouldn’t blame the puny forces of al Qaeda for flying those planes into the buildings in the powerful USA.