Violence is not a tool; to all our peril it is used as one. The government of Israel talks as though they are using craft and skill, but there is no craft and less skill with violence.

And, as Linkins notes, paraphrased, violence is a tool to win the upcoming elections….

peterr – have you seen the pictures of the wall in bethlem?

http://www.bethlehemassoc.org/…..nnexed.htm

The FBI released an e-mail that proves Bush signed an Executive order allowing ‘harsh techniques’ to be used. Nancy? Nancy? There is still time.

http://pubrecord.org/nationwor…..inees.html

I’m thinking it’s the Atomic thing.
First thought I can’t be beat, therefore I’m invincible. Because when the Nuclear holocaust starts in an hour history will cease except that written by cockroaches.
Next if I’m granted this power by God’s infinite wisdom he must take a liking to me therefore what I think other people should do is kinda like doing God’s work.
Using Atomic weapons sure seemed like a quick clean solution at the time.

Iran is threatening to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza.

http://english.ohmynews.com/ar…..8;rel_no=1

Israel just stated that they want to squash terrorism, but apparently, their actions don’t equal terrorism in their eyes!

What a bunch of assholes.

Israel’s surrogates like DOD talking head Barbara Starr are more than happy to go on television to remind the world of the fact that the weapons being used for Israel’s genocide originated in the US or were funded by the US through it’s NEVER TO BE REPAID “loans” to that outlaw regime.

The intent of this propaganda is to lay the blame at the feet of the US for enabling Israel to be so evil. A classic Hasbara deflection strategy…”Blame America First.”

Shimon Peres former leader of the Labor party and current Israeli President (after the last one resigned over a rape charge) is on This Week with George Stephanopoulos. What a sad washed up old hack. As I have often said, it can not be exaggerated how pathetic Israeli political leadership is across the board. Peres is blathering on about how Hamas needed to be taught a lesson and that the Israelis were very careful to avoid civilian casualties, this with some 500 Palestinians already dead and no end to the war in sight.

What the media and our government refuse to accept is that while Hamas may not be a trustworthy partner in a peace process no conceivable Israeli government is either. The difference is that Israel has tanks, bombs, and jets and Hamas has a few small inaccurate rockets. So despite the depiction in the press, it is Israel that has a near monopoly on the violence, and as Peterr’s post suggests, incompetence.

If you go on with this nuclear arms race, all you are going to do is make the rubble bounce…Winston Churchill

Headline News
Tuesday, December 30, 2008 Israel Today Staff

US bombs play big role in Gaza assault

The Jerusalem Post reported on Sunday that the primary weapon used by the Israeli air force in its initial massive wave of attacks on Gaza’s terrorist infrastructure was the GBU-39 bunker-buster bomb.

Israel received its first shipment of 1,000 GBU-39 bombs from the US earlier this month, after winning approval from Congress in September to purchase the high-precision weapon.

Israeli forces used the bombs to great effect on Saturday and Sunday as they targeted underground Hamas facilities across the Gaza Strip.

The GBU-39 was developed by the US military as a small-diameter, low-cost weapon that would result in low collateral damage during pinpoint strikes.

How do you feel about this entire mess in light of the fact that Israel perceives the Gazans as little more than practice targets for their pending attack on Iran, with, you guessed it, US made GBU-39 bombs, without which Israel would be unable to carry out it’s goal to destroy Iran:

http://hashmonean.com/2008/09/…..ran-video/

thanks. i didn’t know peres was going to be on and missed it – will give it a listen via podcast later today.

Peterr

The walls of Belfast are still there, breeding their hates, dividing communities, for Catholic and Prod alike. These walls are what the future holds with other walls. Walls kill the future.

The media doesn’t simply “refuse to accept” your contentions. THEY ARE IN ON IT. Go ahead and research those who own and control the US Media and see where their loyalties lie. Look at the names of those in positions to restrict or create the stories you are provided access to. Expose them and their agenda.

Why do you think Rove spoke in terms of “discernible reality?”

Aside from intentional disinformation and propaganda, what can cause reality to be indiscernible?

Thank you Peterr.

Violence is the Tool of the Incompetent

Yes indeed. That title jumped out at me, begging to be repeated far and wide.

As a simple layperson with leanings toward Soc. of Friends, but no formal affiliations right now, nevertheless I AM a believer. Sadly I see the USA’s official hand entwined in much of the violence rampant in today’s world. This is so horribly wrong. The Bush/Cheney regime of violence has stripped our country and our people of whatever might have remained of our country’s official association with peace, justice and humane progress.

My heart goes out to all those harmed by the actions of our current “leaders”. I find myself stammering apologies to strangers when we travel beyond our borders. Yet there simply IS no way to undo the harm done in our name. But we can spend the next decades trying to make up for the dreadful acts done during our watch by some pretending to act in our name, but utterly and completely without our permission.

Although no amount of retribution will remove the harm already done, I will join those who speak out for bringing charges against the Bush/Cheney team and their minions for their hideous crimes of war.

Mike’s Blog Roundup over on C&L linked to this letter:

http://dark-wraith.com/index.php?itemid=243

Good one.

From a 2007 Slate article by Ron Rosenbaum, titled “Getting Comfy with Genocide”:

…

the man who coined the term, Raphael Lemkin, to come up with a way of naming the phenomenon he’d first seen in the Turkish slaughter of Armenians in 1919.

Lemkin’s definition, which was finally adopted in 1948 by the U.N. General Assembly, classified as genocide “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.”

It is a definition that has lasted nearly six decades, and it is important to remember that it refers not merely to war between nations or war within nations, however terrible. It is not about the death of soldiers in armed combat or in foreign or civil strife. It is about the mass murder of defenseless civilians—men, women, and children—because they belong to a certain kind of group.

(snip)

At what point, for instance, does “ethnic cleansing” become genocide? “Ethnic cleansing” can refer to the forced transfer of populations—bad enough—rather than the indiscriminate murder of them. “Ethnic cleansing,” that hideous euphemism, becomes genocide when it involves mass murder with the intent to exterminate. Genocide is about annihilation.

. “Ethnic cleansing,” that hideous euphemism, becomes genocide when it involves mass murder with the intent to exterminate. Genocide is about annihilation.

Am I crazy? There IS no distinction between the two in my mind.

It’s a distinction without a difference, playing with words while the world burns…

Violence is also the tool of the desperate. Take away all hope and people will do whatever they need to to survive.

Other sources say that “ethnic cleansing” is a polite euphemism for genocide. “Genocide lite,” in other words. I see no difference between them.

At what point, for instance, does “ethnic cleansing” become genocide? “Ethnic cleansing” can refer to the forced transfer of populations—bad enough—rather than the indiscriminate murder of them. “Ethnic cleansing,” that hideous euphemism, becomes genocide when it involves mass murder with the intent to exterminate. Genocide is about annihilation.

Genocide is one method of ethnic cleansing. Forced transfer is another. So is terrorism with the intent of inducing people to leave.

IIRC, no matter how it is done, ethnic cleansing is officially a “crime against humanity” under international law.

D I S C E R N I B L E

R E A L I T Y

Several days ago I used the word “genocide”, with the definition Barbara used above, re the Gaza situation. I think it didn’t go over too well because no one said a word. I still think this is the correct word and can’t think of any other to fit the actions.

((((((barbara))))))

Thank you for your posts and comments. You are a treasure to those of us who visit the Lake.

I wish you well. May 2009 be a good year somehow, in spite of all.

OMG. I keep hearing 60’s protest songs in my head.

I’d better go throw some Telemann on the player or I’ll never get through my day. I was having too much of a pity party as it was.

!P. E. A. C. E.! dammit! *sniffle*

Thanks, darlin’.

To my way of thinking, you said just the right thing.

People need to face up to the truth of what is happening beyond their own noses in today’s world.

Good on ya! and THANK YOU!

This is interesting..and expected. :-(

http://snipurl.com/9g5bw [www_jpost_com]

Boxturtle (I’ve said it before: Israels intent is to remove Hamas and replace ‘em with Fatah)

I’ve said it before: Israels intent is to remove Hamas and replace ‘em with Fatah)

Israels intent is to remove Hamas and replace em with settlements
fixed it for ya. *g*
384 hrs & 8 min

Article 2 of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) defines “genocide” as:

“any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

Normally, I’d agree with that. But I think Israel wants nothing to do with settlements in Gaza. They’d really rather simply ignore it and let Gaza wither away. Hamas wouldn’t let them do that.

I agree with vary little Hamkas says, but I think they’re spot on here: The IAF is currently acting as Fatah’s army. They’re going to crush Hamas as best they can in the time they get. Then they’ll strike an international deal to turn gaza back to Palistinian(Fatah) control and stall on peacekeepers long enough to let Fatah finish up.

Then they’ll get the peace deal they want out of Fatah by simply threatening to confirm the above.

Boxturtle (It’ll work, if Israel is given enough time)

Marcy is upstairs.

Last night Siun explained that she hadn’t linked to this video of the carnage following the shelling of a market in Gaza because she was waiting for verification.

This is from the UK Times:

Nobody even knows what kind of shell it was that hit Gaza City’s main vegetable market this morning – the explosives are falling so thick and fast it could have come from an Israeli naval vessel, an F-16 fighter-bomber, an Apache helicopter gunship, an unmanned drone, an artillery cannon or a tank.

But the results were unmistakable. With Gaza’s ambulance service stretched far beyond its normal capacity, the first mangled bodies arrived in private cars as locals scrambled to save the lives of the shoppers.

The first to be carried in was a boy, his face masked in blood from a head wound as medics whisked him into the overcrowded emergency rooms. The next car disgorged a girl, perhaps 12 or 13 years old, her entrails blown out through a hole in her back by shrapnel.

Read in full: On the spot: chaos in Gaza after Israeli blast hits vegetable market – Times Online

I’ve said it before: Israels intent is to remove Hamas and replace ‘em with Fatah

… which is ironic, given that Israel was heavily involved in the creation of Hamas, arming and funding them in hopes that they’d replace Fatah. Sigh!

Yes and Israel is currently guilty of it.

Apropos of nothing in particular, and yet part of nearly everything we discuss these days….

Among other tasks I have set out for myself before we move later this year, is to go through my parents’ old papers. In the process, I came across travel information they collected from the 1940’s, 50’s and 60’s.

It is surreal to leaf through an Air France brochure, complete with gorgeous pictures accompanied by glowing text referring to the magical Arabian nights to be experienced by travelers to Baghdad….

I can’t read much of it. It’s too hard. But I also can’t bring myself to throw these booklets and pamphlets and maps away, so they will be saved.

The endless questions nag the troubled mind.

What have we allowed to happen in our name?!

The national library of Afghanistan was bombed and allowed to burn to rubble at the start of mr. bush’s crusade, if I remember correctly. I cried that day.

1,877 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Peterr and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

It is time to face up to the reality of the 21st century and that is that American corporate fascism is the most immediate threat to world survival and that the political state of Israel is an organic extension of American fascist power…this is NOT to say that all Israelis are fascists or that Israel can not exist as a political state, only that Israel can not exist as a state as it is presently constituted.

There will be no peace either in the Mddle East or in the world at large until the problem of Israel is solved…notice that I said the problem of Israel not the problem of Palestine or the Palestinians. Until we start calling this terrible situation “the problem of Israel” instead of “the problem of the Middle East” there will be no peace. It all begins and ends here.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE WAR IS IN EVERYONE’S LIVINGROOM NOW!!

okay. now what? not to put too fine a point on it…

no offense, really, honestly.

i’ll just sit in my corner today. keep your ammunition. you may need it, apparently.

“some 500 Palestinians already dead and no end to the war murder in sight.”

fixed that *g*

goodie. i’m glad that’s now set to rights. that should do it then. with a *g* yet. hmmm.

brain bleach in aisle 40 please.

Yep! End that occupation and all the shooting will stop. As you know, it was Israel’s end of occupation in south Lebanon that led to attacks by Hizballah. And Israel’s end of occupation in the Gaza Strip that led to attacks by Hamas. And Israel’s agreement with the PLO and withdrawal from part of the West Bank raised the level of terrorism there (at least for about half of the last 15 years). No doubt if Israel withdrew completely from the West Bank…

But in logical terms, of course, if you believe that “occupation” causes violence — rather than, say, revolutionary Arab nationalist and Islamist movements that sought total victory — you MUST argue that these are defensive reactions. Of course, they are aggressive ones.

• Massacres of Christians in Indonesia
• of Christians and Buddhists in Thailand
• of Christians in the Philippines
• and of Christians and Shia Muslims in Iraq
• and of Christians and Druze and Sunni Muslims in Lebanon
• and of fellow Muslims in Algeria and Egypt and Saudi Arabia
• and of course al-Qaida attacks including September 11
• and the London subway bombings
• and the Bali bombing
• and the Spanish commuter train bombings
• and the Mumbai attacks
• and the murder of animists and fellow Muslims in Sudan
• and so on.

Well then, bless your heart.

Jane is upstairs with news on Employee Free Choice

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French… What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct… If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” M K Gandhi

Heh

great quote. thanks.

Peterr–

Through a Lutheran college (I am absolutely sure you know which one) I was able to spend several months living in the Old City of Jerusalem, surrounded by Palestinians and Israelis, volunteering at a Lutheran school in Ramallah, even spending Christmas day at the house of the then-pastor of the Lutheran church in that town (this was in 1979).
One day while wandering through the Old City we saw one of the waiters from the Lutheran hostel we were staying at stopped by Israeli soldiers. We found out later that they had stopped him on his way to work, for no apparent reason except that they could. They demanded to see his papers, and he was made to stand in the street for hours.
Witnessing his distress and humiliation that day was a profound experience. It was at that moment that I understood, as well as someone can who does not have to live it, what occupation means.
What people need to remember is that when you treat others as somehow less than you, somehow not quite as human, you begin to destroy your own humanity as well.

Has anyone noticed (by now) that the US and Israel achieve their “great military victories” against foes who have no weapons at all? The “redoubtable” Israeli Defense Force wasn’t too “redoubtable” when it got its a## handed to it by even a (comparably) lightly armed Hezbollah, and in Iraq if we hadn’t paid the Sunnis not to kill us instead of 4-5,000 troops we would still be losing them probably twice that amount. Our “pinpoint” munitions don’t mean squat when thereafter you have to go in and fight a determined enemy who is defending house and home. Also notice that American armaments and troops themselves are always involved in these “wars” yet we blame Iran, the Soviet Union, etc etc of causing all the trouble!! If I were not an American I would cetainly be arming myself against us right now. Lastly, we spread this toxicity to other countries-notice American and Jewish “advisors” in Georgia-but we don’t do well at all against a strong enemy; those “advisors” likewise ran with tails between their legs when the Russians came to town. Old Russian joke: What did Jews and Americans teach the Georgian army? Ans: How to retreat. One more point: If the Palestinians were our ally, we allow them to be treated the way Israel has treated them? Think about it.

Yes, please.

Violence continues because it works – on the person violated and on those who learn of it and tremble. I no longer exclusively see it as a solution to a disagreement – it is a tool of control and confiscation and dominance.

Adie @ 18: thank you. bless you.

barbara @ 20: yes!

I cannot stand these ’definitions’ or the endless discussion about them. They only co-opt even good people into delaying and debating in the face of evil, seeking to convince one another of the level or extremity of the evil. This assists those who are evil. It’s part of the tricks they play. We can’t do anything until we get the definition and nuance ”just right” and even then the perpetrators just ignore it anyway.

Twain @ 23: I have made similar statements. I really hate this international game of words. I won’t participate. It’s genocide. It’s ethnic cleansing. It’s disproportionate. It’s forced transfer. I suspect no one can provide a name that I will consider worthy of debating.

Thanks very much peterr.

I wonder just how many of those who critisise Israel’s actions would be asking their government to do nothing if they were being attacked at the rate of around 100 rockets daily by a terrorist organisation purporting to be a government (even thought this government is illegal). I am willing to bet that just about every one of them would be screaming for action. It’s easy to sanctimonius when you aren’t the one who is affected.

“Israel hits Gaza with Air Strikes”
– this was the first headline to hit the Media.

I personally get sick of it.
The first Headline should have been –

“Hamas fires over 300 rockets on Israel in unprovoked attacks.”

The world media always shows photographs of civilians in Gaza who are the innocent casualties of a war, which Israel AND the civilian population of Gaza does not want. Seldom does the same media show photographs of the innocent civilians in Israel who are killed in unprovoked attacks from the Hamas and similar organizations in Gaza. Organistions that are supported and financed by terror organizations from many parts of the Arab, and sad to say, the western world.

The world calls for an end to the violence in the middle east – rightfully so. But the world forgets that the only people who can stop this violence are the civilian populations of Gaza and the countries that support it. Only they can show that they do not want this violence by not supporting the terror groups. Much of the information received by Israel comes from civilian sources inside Gaza. The leaders of the Hamas and other groups encourage civilians to stay in the areas which they know will be targeted in any air strikes, very often by paying the families large sums of money. Hamas doesn’t care if these civilians get killed, injured and maimed because they know that these are the pictures which are sent around the world.

It is time that the world came down on the organizations that support this violence, make it impossible for them to exist. This is about the only thing on which I agree with President Bush.

I would wish that the media stopped showing the photographs, but of course they won’t, this is what sells their papers and indirectly finances their broadcasts.

These terror organizations aren’t interested in peace, if peace was achieved they would cease to exist and nobody would be interested in these – let’s call them what they are – Terrorists, criminals and murderers.

The proof is in the pudding – In the many peace talks held over the years, the late Mr. Arafat had obtained 95% of all that he asked for, for the price of stopping the violence –

He said NO.

Of course it is a tragedy when innocent bystanders get hurt, but that is the price of doing nothing. I ask the world to stop sending aid to Gaza. WAKE UP world, hit these people where it really hurts – deny them any form of finance, with no money there are no weapons, with no weapons there is no violence. Freeze the financial assets of all and any persons and / or Organisation who sends financial support.

Yes – Send in medical supplies, Yes – send in food. BUT FOR HUMANITIES SAKE – DO NOT SEND IN ONE SINGLE DOLLAR.

Would this not be a great New Year’s resolution??

“Well. HE did it first!” was never a very effective point of argument in our household.

How do you fight an insurgency in which combatants hide in plain sight? With today’s technology, police would know in minutes if the waiter was on a wanted list. Conditions in Israel in 1979 have no bearing on conditions there today.

The hypocrisy of the terrorist lovers is digusting. Where is the marching, the singing of kumbaya, the demonstrations against “war” when Hamas is shooting dozens of rockets and mortars into Israel every day? There can be no peace with Hamas because Hamas does not want peace. Do you know what Hamas calls Israelis? “The Occupiers”. When I confronted some Palestinians I know well about this, saying “But Israel no longer occupies any of Gaza”, there response was that ANY part of the Middle East that a Jew lives on is occupied territory. When I told these same people that Israel had offered peace when they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, they replied “who says we want peace? we want Israel destroyed”.

Hamas does not want peace. They only cry about peace when Israel retaliates.

Violence is not the tool of the incompetent when it is used in self defense. I would say though that incompetently using violence is an evil thing. Hamas as the rulers of Gaza declared war on Israel by committing acts of war on a daily basis. Israel should have declared war, instituted blockades and embargoes, and launched a full scale WWII style invasion with its ultimate aim to seek out and destroy all of the leadership and military capacity of Hamas. Same as was done to Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan in WWII.

This pussy footing around due to being overly concerned because of what the hypocrites in the media will say is counter productive. As Ulysses S. Grant said the only way to fight an enemy is “Find the enemy, come to close grips with the enemy, and destroy them”. That is what Israel should do.

The world community is aggravating the situation by continuing to give Hamas and Gaza money, aid, and moral support. Gaza should have ALL aid withdrawn and the people of Gaza told that until they behave as adults and civilized members of the world society, they get NOTHING. Then this nonsense would stop.

There is no country that would tolerate a daily rain of rockets and mortars and now missiles on their cities. Who would tolerate this? Imagine if Luxembourg fired missiles into Germany. Or, Ireland fired missiles into Britain. Or, Rumania fired missiles into Russia. It is preposterous to imagine such things because you know what would happen. The fired upon country would declare ware and fight to win. Yet, Israel is somehow supposed to sit back while its citizens are murdered by the lunatics in Gaza. Preposterous.

Find the murderers known as Hamas, come to close quarters with them, and destroy them. Tell the people of Gaza they get their lives back when the daily acts of war stop, not before. That is the only way this can be resolved.

None of these attacks are unprovoked, nor have they been since Israels creation. The Jews saying that had a right to this land is the same thing as if, 1000 years from now, the Idians, pardon me, Native Americans, said they had a right to what is now the U.S., and we gave it to them. It is absurd, and it will never happen here, and never should have happened there. Now that we have gotten rid of the misconception that these attacks are unprovoked, we can move to the “300 rockets” statement. Yeah, so what? They fired 300 rockets. What really matters is the death toll. in the 8 days leading up to the invasion of Gaza, Hammas rockets had killed 4 Israelis compared to the 485 or so Palistinians. Leats go back to 5 grade. For every 1 Israeli killed, there are over 100 Palistians killed. So excuse me if I don’t give a damn about any 300 rockets.

Leats should be Lets in that second to last sentence.
And warvet, [Mod: please do not tell other commenters to be silent.]. You are [Mod: edited to remove personal insult] on the matters you speak of that I don’t know wether to laugh at you or pity you. If any country were to try a WWII style invasion, they would be destroyed before they managed to cross the border. Also, this violence is not self defence. See my previous comment. And before you go to blame Hammas for getting mad at being expelled from their own crountry, maybe you should comsider the fact that it was THEIR DAMN COUNTRY!

Islam, began in Mecca, claimed to be the revelation of God (Allah) through the angel Gabriel to a man named Muhammad. Muhammad was born in approximately AD 570-571.

Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion, and the history of Judaism cannot be separated from the history of the Jewish people. Its foundation lies in the original covenant made between Abraham and God, circa 1900 BCE, when Abraham was called to leave his home in Ur and travel to Cannan (later known as Palestine and Israel), a land which God promised to give to his descendants. The second and chief covenant was made 450 years later when Moses led the Jews out of slavery in Egypt (the exodus) back to the lands of Canaan. At Mt Horeb (Sinai), God gave the Jewish people the 10 Commandants and other rules to live by (contained in the Torah, the first five books of the Bible), marking the beginning of Judaism as a structured religion.

The current Jewish year is 5769, and for the unenlightened today’s Palestine has been their home ever since that date.
While unfortunately the Islamic world is first by 1439.

The only truth in the statement by is that the State of Israel as it is known today was formed on the 14th May 1948, pretty much as a necessity against the Islamic world.

Maybe a lesson in history would be helpful.

Again my own lack of spelling appalls me. Defence should be defense, crountry should be country, and comsider should be consider.

Bravo

…for the unenlightened today’s Palestine has been their home ever since that date.

Actually, no. The Romans I believe tore down Jerusalem and banished the Jewish religion, forcing what was known as the Diaspora. Israel as the homeland of the Jewish faith and as a country did not exist from that point until 1948.

But thank you for playing our game of historical trivia about who was where when.

I wonder if you would say the same if the american indian took back america. But it was the mesoptanians who destroyed jerusalem long before the romans got there. Even so it has without pause always been the home of the jewish people without pause.

That was terrible english, I ask forgiveness.

It was considered the home of their religion even though they had absolutley no control over it in any way shape or form.

By your logic though, the American Indian = the Jewish religion and the rest of the United States would be the equivalent of the Palestinians.

Which side are you supporting here?

I’ll admit it was a bad metaphor. Have no doubt, I am on the side of the Israeli’s.

I come from a long line of southerners. During the war of northern agression (aka “Civil War”, aka “Lincoln’s War”) the Unionists came to the town my family is from one day and rounded up all the males between the ages of 15-55 and executed them for “anti Union” activities. Since my family is from the part of Virginia that was stolen by the Unionists, what other kind of activities did they expect? In addition to executing my ancestors they also stole our land. The land had vast coal reserves on and was later mined at considerable profit.

So, using your logic me and my relatives should go to West Virginia and start firing mortars and rockets into Beckley to get our land back.

Ah, the inanity of trolls.

It really amuses me that you would even try to use my logic against me and not expect me to realize how twisted and ludicrous it is. In “Lincoln’s War” as you so ridiculously put it, the South was the aggressor (i.e. Fort Sumpter), but I refuse to get into an argument with someone so blinded by their own logic that they refuse to listen to reason. The land was stolen from the Palestinians, while I do not necessarily agree with their means, Israel is far more violent than Palestine (Over 100 Palestinians dead for 1 Israeli killed) and most of the Palestinians that die are civilians.

>>“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs >>to the English or France to the French… What is going on in Palestine >>today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct… If they [the >>Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it >>is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious >>act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They >>can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, >>they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have >>done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they >>had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard >>as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the >>accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab >>resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” M K Gandhi

Well, Mr. Ghandi was wrong on several points.
>>“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs >>to the English or France to the French…
Israelis are Arabs. This is a fact that the terrorist apologists like to forget. When you are talking about the Middle East conflict it is improper to say Arab-Jewish conflict because Israeli Jews are Arabs (unless they immigrated from abroad, but even then they are descendants of Arabs if their ancestry can be traced back to the Middle East).

>>If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their >>national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British >>gun.
Yes, there were several thousand European Jews who emigrated to the British Mandate at the end of WWII. The British did everything they could to keep them out. The vast majority of Jewish people in the mandate on the day of independence had always lived in the mandate. This is another lie of the terrorist apologists. That hordes of Jews came to Palestine and “stole” the tiny enclave that became Israel from the original inhabitants. That is simply not true.

>>They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…

Since the few thousand European Jews who emigrated to Palestine almost exclusively joined Jewish cooperatives (communes) or lived in Jewish cities, not sure what the point being made here is.

>>As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people >>who have done no wrong to them.
The British resisted the influx fiercely and the British army protected the rights of all citizens of the mandate. There was no collaboration with the British in despoiling anyone. Another lie. However, in 1948 this “who have done no wrong to them” changed drastically when the Muslim inhabitants of Israel sided with the invading Muslim armies in the attempt to inflict genocide on the entire Jewish population. The Muslim inhabitants either fled at the approach of the Muslim armies in order to give them a free hand in murdering civilians (as radio broadcasts by Muslim leaders urged them to do), or they joined citizen armies and tried to murder their neighbors and had to flee because the Jews fought back, or they fled in fear of retaliation for having participated in the planned genocide when the Muslim armies’ invasion failed.

>>But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can >>be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.”
Actually something can be said against the Muslim “resistance”. The lie being told is that the ‘Israelis’ stole “all the land”. The truth is that the Jewish inhabitants of the former territories of the Ottoman Empire were given 1% of the original land area. Yes, that is correct, 1%. These Jewish inhabitants of the Mandate of Palestine are as much Arabs and “Palestinians” as the Muslims who claim that title. Yes, it was a stupid idea to set up a country based on a religion. Yes, the UN researchers who visited Palestine in ‘46 and ‘47 recommended a single state solution, the solution that was adopted sounded good on paper, a two state solution, but two states connected as was Czechoslovakia (Union of Czech and Slovak republics) or Austria-Hungary, or Yugoslavia (Union of Slav Republics). The Muslims chose not to accept their state but to commit genocide against the Jews instead. And they lost. The “Arab brothers” of the defeated Muslim inhabitants of the small plot of land that declared independence as Israel did not welcome them with open arms, but forced them to live in camps instead, refused to give them passports, or allow them to work, or allow them to go to school. Had the Muslims accepted the deal that the UN offered them and set up their own state and also declared independence on the day that Israel did, then the two state nation of Israel-Palestine would have been created as intended.

The Muslims chose genocide instead and lost. Those who had not fled to give the Muslim invading armies a free hand now had no choice to do so after betraying their neighbors so blatantly.

So all you bleeding hearts who feel sorry for the “poor Muslims” need to get a library card and learn some freaking history.

Ah Fort Sumter. So, what government would tolerate a hostile fort in their middle of their most important harbor being resupplied with arms and ammunition? The firing on Fort Sumter was a poor choice, but no sovereign nation would allow a hostile power to resupply an illegal base in its most important harbor.

I like the way you refuse to address the issue I bring up, you your position is that violence to reclaim stolen land is to be condoned. And since the Unionists stole my family’s land, I’m wondering if the same principle applies to us or only to Muslims? Simple question, really.

>>Ah, the inanity of trolls.

Ah, the inanity of those who refuse to discuss the issues and resort to name calling instead.

So are you a citizen of the USA or the CSA?

And if you are not a citizen of the USA, why so adamant in defense of the wars?

Because I seem to recall that the South lost (and before you start, my great grandfather fought in the Confederate army, was awarded the Southern Cross of Honor and spent 18 months in a Yankee prisoner of war camp so don’t start with how your family was wronged in the war.)

Arafat was a terrorist trained by the Russians and the Bulgarians when the communists were in power. The Bulgarians released this classified information after the fall of the USSR. Arafat was never going to make peace no matter what happened. Hamas is cut from the same cloth.

Just asked a simple question. The point was made that the “Palestinians” have every right to lob mortars and rockets into Israel because Jews “stole their land”. Just asking is it okay for my family to do the same because our land was stolen. Simple question really. Yes or no answer will suffice.

Not sure which wars that I am in defense of.

My post in this forum stated that the mistake Israel is making is in not calling Hamas to task by declaring war on them and Gaza for daily acts of war over the past several months, and then fighting that war to a complete finish which included the total destruction of Hamas and their war making capability.

So, if that the war I am in defense of, then you got me on that one. Not sure what difference it makes what country I live in to hold that opinion.

I don’t know the answer. Is it alright for Israel to impose the blockade and starve the gazans out (which was started prior to the missiles)?

Do escalating wrongs on all sides make it right?

>>Is it alright for Israel to impose the blockade and starve the gazans out >>(which was started prior to the missiles)?

You are either very subtly twisting what really happened, or you are misinformed. The blockade was imposed prior to the use of these latest high tech, long range missiles is true. However, the blockade was in response to the daily mortar and rocket attacks on Israel and the importation by Hamas of every increasing amounts and sophistication of arms into Gaza (in clear violation of every cease fire that has been signed).

Yes, the Gazans should have to suffer the consequences of electing terrorists whose stated political policy is the genocide of all Jews occupying one inch of “Palestine” (Israel).

The mistake that the Israelis made was in being persuaded by the Kumbaya singers in not making the Gazans suffer enough for electing genocidal maniacs as their rulers.

When a neighboring country commits daily acts of war against you, then you go to war and you fight to win. Blockade and embargo are part of going to war. If you don’t want to be blockaded and embargoed then do not commit acts of war on a daily basis and you won’t have to worry about it.

Yes, the Gazans should have to suffer the consequences of electing terrorists whose stated political policy is the genocide of all Jews occupying one inch of “Palestine” (Israel).

Now, who was it who pushed for Israel and Gaza to hold those elections in the first place?

I believe that would be the Bush Administration and the United States.

But because the Gazans chose to be represented by a political party other than the one we favored, it is now OK to attack them and starve the folks out?

So much for bringing Democracy to the world. Or did I miss the asterisk that said “Democracy for the World as long as you elect the people WE support.”

Seriously? OK Hamas is admits to being a terrorist organization and the people of Gaza elected them as their political leadership. Hamas launched thousands of rockets into Israel since 2006. Hamas puts bombs on woman and children and has them blow up shopping areas and schools in Israel. Hamas uses schools as weapons caches and religious buildings as terror organization centers. All these things make Hamas the good guys in the eyes of some people.
Since the “Nation of Palestine” has not even existed since 1480 B.C. there are many nations that could lay claim to Gaza since that time. All history of Palestine jumps from 1480 B.C. to the mid 1900’s with no trace in the middle. In other words there are no such thing as REAL Palestinians unless they can produce real documentation tracing there lineage to 1480 B.C.

All right warvet, you got me. I believe it is exactly the same thing for someone to lose a war, then go “Oh shit! Thats not what I really meant”. The South started the war, then lost. Get over it. The Palestinians were forced out by the British, which is what Ghandi meant when he said “British gun” and he was exactly right. Either come up with a well formulated argument and stop twisting what I say or go get ready for your Klan meeting while contemplating the fact that you just got verbally abused by a high school junior. (And just to throw it in, my great-grandfather fought in WWII too)

>>All right warvet, you got me. I believe it is exactly the same thing for >>someone to lose a war, then go “Oh shit! Thats not what I really meant”. >>The South started the war, then lost. Get over it.
Well, that wasn’t the question I asked. the question I asked was, is it okay using your formula of “they stole our land so we will bomb the shit out of them” for my family to apply the same principle. Yes, or no will suffice as the answer.

>>The Palestinians were forced out by the British,
Absolute lie. The Jewish inhabitants of the Mandate are as much “Palestinians” as the Muslims. The British did ZERO forced relocations and fought the zionists who attempted this at every turn.
>>which is what Ghandi meant when he said “British gun”
Well, just because he was famous, doesn’t mean he always told the truth
>>and he was exactly right.
Actually, he lied.
>>Either come up with a well formulated argument
I stated one. Here it is again for you. When a civilian population elects a group of murdering psycopaths who have as their stated political aim the genocide of a much more militarily powerful neighbor, and that group of murdering psycopaths commits acts of war on a daily basis, then the civilians should not be surprised when the more militarily powerful neighbor retaliates by waging war against the psychopaths. And the neighbor having the acts of war committed against it daily is absolutely justified in declaring and waging fullscale war against the genocidal maniacs.
>>and stop twisting what I say
I didn’t twist what you said. I asked if your principle of “they stole our land so we bomb them every day” which you support, would apply to my situation since the Unionists stole my family’s land. You never answered the question. Still waiting.
>>or go get ready for your Klan meeting
Not in the Klan actually, don’t know anyone in the Klan, wouldn’t know how to find anyone in the Klan if I wanted to. Am not a racist, never have been a racist. Thinking that a country has the right to defend itself against blatant acts of war is not a racist position.
>>while contemplating the fact that you just got verbally abused by a high >>school junior.
Who knows nothing about history.

Let’s start with the facts:

There is NO Palestinian land. There never was. That land has belonged to the Jewish people for thousands of years. They simply took back what was rightfully and biblically theirs. It really is that simple.
When Europe and the rest of the world gives back what it stole from my people, there may be room to talk.
The Palestinians should be cursing their Arab brothers for refusing to absorb them into their lands.
Why do you think that no arab countries want the Palestinians ?

Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, etc. ARE terrorist groups. You cannot whitewash this no matter how hard you try.
Hamas continued to fire rockets into Israeli territory AFTER the ceasefire. How long do you suppose that should continue before Israel finally responds ?

Oddly, I didn’t hear the UN or the Arab world condemning the continued rocket attacks on Israel. Now all of a sudden they wake up with pointed fingers when there are Jews to blame and find fault with ?!
Fuck all of you and all of them.

Resistance to occupation my ass.

Radical Muslim warmongers who still cannot adapt to the 20th century and still live in the 4th century will never garner sympathy from me or anyone else with half a brain between their ears.

It is by Israel’s democratic grace that the West Bank and Gaza were given to the Palestinians to call home and live under their own statehood. But no, that was not good enough.

It’s hard to feel sorry for animals who live and breathe for the destruction of a race of people rather than improving their own lot. The whole world was ready to assist the Palestinians with their autonomy and were given a lot of money to do so.

Did they feed their hungry ? Did they heal their ill ? Did they shelter their homeless ?

No, they bought fucking rockets and firearms. For the resistance, of course.

It is you who should open your eyes. Until you have walked even a half a mile in Israeli shoes, you have no right to your comments.

Too bad you weren’t born a Jew. You might have a more clear understanding of the truth and the real issues rather than sharing this perpetual “point the finger / blame the Jews” mentality that those of ignorance continue to believe and spread.

And you consider yourself educated ? I think not.

[Mod Note; let’s debate the issues and avoid the insults. Thanks.]

>>In other words there are no such thing as REAL Palestinians unless they >>can produce real documentation tracing there lineage to 1480 B.C.

Actually, using the logic of the terrorist lovers, the Jewish inhabitants of the Mandate at the time of the independence of Israel were as much “Palestinians” as the Muslims that they tag with that title.

Also, any Jewish person who can trace their ancestry back to ancient Israel can lay claim to being a “Palestinian”.

>>Now, who was it who pushed for Israel and Gaza to hold those elections in >>the first place?
The people of Gaza and the West Bank, the drive by media elites, the liberals.

>>I believe that would be the Bush Administration and the United States.
Yes, the Bush administration helped make it happen.
>>But because the Gazans chose to be represented by a political party >>other than the one we favored, it is now OK to attack them and starve >>the folks out?
No, that is not the issue.

The political party that they favored has as its stated political goal the genocide of all Jewish people living in Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, Jerusalem and anyplace else they can reach. The same political party has committed acts of war on a daily basis since the election by firing missiles, rockets, and mortars into Israel, sending suicide bombers into Israel, kidnapping Israeli citizens, stockpiling arms and ammunition, using civilians as shields, assassinating Israeli government leaders, etc, etc, etc.

>>So much for bringing Democracy to the world. Or did I miss the asterisk >>that said “Democracy for the World as long as you elect the people WE >>support.”
No, you missed the asterisk that said “Democracy that does not murder its neighbors, use women and children as human shields, hide their illegally stockpiled weapons in Mosques, hospitals, and schools, and use the citizens of their own country as pawns in their terrorist enterprise by causing them untold suffering and then using them for propaganda purposes to curry favor with the Kumbaya singers. You missed that asterisk.

Actually one doesn’t need to be a Jew to know the true history and the real issues at stake today. All one has to do is look at the ORIGINAL source materials from the 1940s. It is all there. The calls by Muslim leaders to the Muslim inhabitants of Israel to flee so that the invading armies can launch a war of genocide. The refusal of the Muslims to form a country on the land that the UN gave to them. The stealing of that land by Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. The placement of the dislocated Muslims (who had just participated unsuccessfully in attempted genocide) into concentration camps by their Muslim “brothers”. The use of these dislocated people as propaganda set pieces for 60 years by these same Muslim “brothers”. It is all there for anyone who can read to see for themselves.

Eventually, evil will be defeated. Arabs will be removed not only from Gasa, but also from other parts of Israel. Current actions of Hamas help this happen. Israel needs an entire new generation of leaders – REAL LEADERS. Real leaders will be not like Rabin or all others, who gave to the Arabs portions of Israel’s land. Real leaders will clear Israel’s land from Arabs – all Israel’s land – including Gasa, Judea, and Samaria. Israel will hold elections in February of this year, and these elections will produce thr real leaders for the nation. Hamas is destined to help this happen. After real leaders come to power in Israel, it will become a turning point in a history of Middle East.

Eventually, evil will be defeated. Arabs will be removed not only from Gasa, but also from other parts of Israel.

Actually, Israelis are Arabs. Maybe you mean to say “lunatic Muslim genocidal maniacs”?

Current actions of Hamas help this happen. Israel needs an entire new generation of leaders – REAL LEADERS. Real leaders will be not like Rabin or all others, who gave to the Arabs portions of Israel’s land.
Well, that depends on whether you think that “Israel” is the UN mandated territory or if it includes all the land conquered by Israel in the 4 Muslim-Israeli wars. Personally, I think it includes the latter and that one of the biggest mistakes Israel ever made was giving back one inch of this territory.

Real leaders will clear Israel’s land from Arabs – all Israel’s land – including Gasa, Judea, and Samaria.

Careful, dude, now you sound just like the Muslim lunatics who call for genocide of the Jews. I don’t hold with this kind of talk.

Israel will hold elections in February of this year, and these elections will produce thr real leaders for the nation. Hamas is destined to help this happen. After real leaders come to power in Israel, it will become a turning point in a history of Middle East.

It would be nice if Israel got real leaders who declare war when acts of war are committed against them and fight to win and stop listening to the Kumbaya singers in the US and Europe.

Dragon!!! THERE you are! FGS, out here in this turgid air without a hat. You’ll catch yer death a foolishness.

Now get back in here and feed the tigers. They’re so mad they’s markin’ the walls again.

Can’t leave u for a minute.

u o.k.?

Peace and reason are tools of the rational, competent and humane.
Peace takes work.
Peace is contageous, once you get the hang of it.
Dare to try it.
If not for yourself or your neighbor, then for the children and our fellow living beings on this one earth.

P. E. A. C. E.

Don’t make me come down here again. I’ve had a hard day, and even angels get tired. dammit.

Israel has used considerable restraint and skill in surgically taking out Hamas hiding places, weapons stores and terrorist training camps. Fewer than 1/3 of those killed were Hamas terrorists. The civilian casualties are a direct result of Hamas hiding in mosques and private homes – both actions are war crimes for which Hamas should be punished. As Hamas was elected by the inhabitants of Gaza, their actions are those of a sovereign state. The rockets fired daily into Israel are grounds for Israel to respond and take whatever measures were needed to stop the rockets. The residents of Gaza could have peace, if they stopped firing rockets at Israel, elected a non-terrorist government and publicly acknowledged Israel’s right to exist. Until that happens, Israel is forced to continue its response to Hamas.

How long would you let someone kill members of you family, of your nation before you did something to stop it?

Israel has offered the Palestinians peace time and time again. They have been willing to give up so much over the years. EVERY TIME the Palestinians have either refused the offers or pretended to accept in order to kill more Israelis. Yasser Arafat proved they didn’t want peace in 2000. Read http://www.spacewar.com/2004/0…..y0ge.html.

Remember it takes two to make peace. It takes one to make war. [Hamas has fired 220 rockets into southern Israel in the past week from the areas of Gaza that Israeli troops have now entered, Olmert said. (from CNN News)http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/04/gaza.reaction/

If another country had done to the United States what the Palestinians have done to Israel we would have exterminated them. They have done a lot more to Israel than was done to us on Sept 11, 2001.

Sounds like Hamas should be charged with genocide since their goal is the extermination of Israel. http://shatteredparadigm.blogs…..rding.html

Excellent citation. How soon can we get the UN to arrest all members of Hamas and those who support Hamas. That will go a long way in getting peace in the middle east.

According to the United States Supreme Court:

“an individual can be a Citizen of one of the several States without being a citizen of the United States,” (U.S. v. Anthony, 24 Fed. Cas. 829, 830), or, “a citizen of the United States without being a Citizen of a State.”
(Slaughter-House Cases, supra; cf. U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 US 542, 549 (1875)).

Please note that in the above a Citizen of a State is capitalized and a citizen of the United States isn’t.

To my statement ‘Eventually, evil will be defeated. Arabs will be removed not only from Gasa, but also from other parts of Israel’ Warveteran said: Actually, Israelis are Arabs. Maybe you mean to say “lunatic Muslim genocidal maniacs”?

I’ve read a lot of nonsense on this (and many other forums), but it’s the first time that someone said ‘Israelis are Arabs’. So, you are unaware of creation of Israel in 1948 as a JEWISH STATE? You are unaware of existence of Jewish PEOPLE? I’m talking about Jewish PEOPLE, not about religion of Judaism. You don’t know that there are Jewish people who are the people of semitic race? Then you need to learn a lot. You have your homework cut out for you.
Another point is that you shouldn’t put words like ‘genocide’ into my mouth. When I said about clearing land of Israel from Arabs, I didn’t say that Arabs should be killed, exterminated, annihilated or anything like that.

yes. i’m still here listening. see no need to respond in kind,….. fwiw

good gaawd people. Please save this thread and re-read it to dissect YOUR OWN AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE’s agonies and academics of spirit, history, rights, wrongs, and everything in between.

We MUST share this one world, or we must perish in the effort to go it alone.

P. L. E. A. S. E. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really am sick of this “How long will you take people killing your family before you retaliate” BULLSHIT. I doubt any of the people that say this know any real statistics. One, in the eight days prior to the invasion of Gaza, with all this talk about constant bombings into Israel, four people died. Now, I’m not saying that these four people don’t matter, nor am I saying that I don’t wish that they hadn’t been killed, but wake the fuck up, please. Israel, once again in the eight days prior to the invasion, killed 485 Palestinians. The majority of which were civilians. So please don’t say shit about how the Palestinians are the most guilty ones here. Both sides kept firing after the ceasefire, and depending on the source, you will get different answers as to who fired first. Moving on, Israel’s right to exist is a moot point. They exist. It is foolish for either side to deny the existence of the other. That goes for Israel too. If your going to bomb someone, admit they are there and declare war (personally I don’t give a flying fuck what God promised to the Jews, the Palestinians were there first, as in, when Israel was created). And to anyone that refers to the Muslim race as “evil” is a dumb piece of shit. Thats along the same lines of Confederate thinking about blacks. It is just as bad. Now that I’ve bashed Israel long enough, the Palestinians are bastards too. You don’t set up your headquarters in civilian areas so you can bitch when civilians get killed. While I have the greatest sympathy for the dead, Hammas is in my opinion one of the most evil organizations to exist, but there message is valid. I completely condemn 99% of their actions, but their message is OK, the Jews shouldn’t have gotten that land. Thats the same as giving America back to the Indians 1000 years from now. Bull, I know, but they say they have a religious right to it. But enough, I embarrass myself by rambling.

I just read this post I am replying to, and it is one of the stupidest ignorant things ever said. What happened to the U.S. on 9-11 is so much more worse than what has happened to Israel in the past week that there aren’t words to describe how I feel right now. In Israel 4 people died. 4 FUCKING PEOPLE. Are you that much of a complete asshole to even think about saying that? Obviously you are because you did say it. Over 6,000 people died in 9-11, compared to the 4 in Israel. I can’t even comprehend how incredibly stupid that comment is. It baffles the mind. AND AT THE TIME OF 9-11, THE U.S. HADN’T DONE ANYTHING WRONG. So please, take your bullshit somewhere else.

[Mod Note: FWIW, we don’t insult other commenters in FDL threads and, since you seem to be new to FDL, perhaps it’s best to let the mods determine what comments should and shouldn’t stay in the thread. Thanks.]

“Violence is the Tool of the Incompetent”

I wanted to comment on the title of this blog. If that statement is true then many governments of the world including ours are the most incompetent by killing more innocent babies in the wombs of their mothers than all the wars put together. Violence will have sometimes to protect the innocent within that country, state, place or whatever. It will happen and must to protect innocent life. Many governments of the world are killing our future, the most innocent, babies in the womb. That is the height of crazy killing. When that life is not safe then how can we honestly believe that any life is really safe?

Violence is what fools use for tools, well planned, well executed use of tools is what great armies use against fools.

The Gazans could have chosen a destiny of living peacibly next to the Israelis and life could have been quite simple. They could have chosen to put down the muslim terror plans and rule like modern people, instead of acting and ruling like the rest of unsettled Africa or the backward muslim extremist world.

The putzes that have posted otherwise on this blog offer such little support to the “cause” of the Gazanians. The choice was theirs, and they chose the wrong way. Darfur, Somalia, etc, etc, etc. all still stone age support groups with little interest in moving into 2009. Even the new President Elect of the US, Mr. B. Hussein Obama, having brothers and sisters living in squalor on less than $20 a year while he pulls in over $4 million himself last year, doesn’t offer his kinfolk a fin for an increased standard or living.

Look, one point a lot of you bloggers seem to be missing is that to be Jewish is first a racial thing, not just because they decided to go to a synagogue, as in a religious thing! This may go to some of the lame discussions on cleansing v. genocide. The history lessons were nice – but if you’ll pardon the pun, no one “nose” Jews like other Jews!

So here’s the deal, if you are eating pretty well, finding nice clothes and shelter, consider if it is because of some sand jockey or because of those low-life Americans that have shed blood for good since the inception of the country – ultimately even including those drunken, non-working, red brothers of mine.

The folks that we really want to win are the ones that suck oil out of the ground in the Middle East, right? They are everyone’s friend, right? Look at all the good things Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen – Oh man, can you list all those things we have in our houses and because of their intelligence?

Any you, the winged one, Peace IS possible, once you run out of idealogs that refuse to accept anyone that differs on an opinion.

Did you eat meat, wear leather, step on an ant, swat a fly today. For shame. You have offended my values.

Of course I sound stupid. Would it matter to you what I said, irregardless of detail?

Mutual respect is good. It’s a start.

Dear Jane. I admire you for… oh well… you know. I wish I had better skills in certain areas, so I could help. I hope not to have caused further discord….

”Violence is the Tool of the Incompetent”

I am not competent to speak to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. The U.N. created it years ago.

I would like to speak to that statement, ”Violence is the Tool of the Incompetent.”

That statement is true, up to a point. It can hardly be labeled true if and when violence is the only remaining option for protecting yourself, your family or other loved ones from those who wish to visit violence upon them.

It might be more realistic to state, ”Violence is a tool of last resort.”

This is the most basic teaching of martial art. We learn to fight so that we may avoid it.

Well put!!

A valid point was made. When you are a jew (as I am) and have lived in Israel (as I have) Then you have a real right to make certain statements. But a great many people have died in this world to give all of us a right to express their opinion. I would wish however that the opinions were at least based on fact and not on someone’s utopial thoughts. For anybody who is really interested there are alot of facts to find at : http://richard.richardkulies.c…..ions_2.htm Everybody feel free to visit and learn.