Yesterday, a video started circulating with claims that it showed the immediate aftermath of the bombing of a market in Gaza. Many of you by now may have seen it – it is horrifying. Even though I’ve seen an awful lot of rough video from Iraq and Afghanistan and now Gaza, this one … this one was like a punch to the gut … this one made me cry.
This afternoon, markfromireland, who, as many of you know, is a very experienced bomb disposal officer, and I watched it again and again – and did more digging. Several things have led us to think this is not a video from yesterday. It may be from a horrific explosion a few years ago – markfromireland discovered that both Liveleaks and Toxicjunction (warning:video starts automatically) have the same video, the first posted on January 1 of this year making a very dubious claim to show events from September 2005, the latter uploaded in March 2008.
markfromireland had a feeling that something was just not right and other things seen in the video raised our suspicions: there is a focus on a truck at the end yet no truck mentioned in the Times article on yesterday’s market strike, there are men in uniforms seen, yet we doubt Hamas or other Gazan fighters are circulating in public in uniform at the moment, and the number of dead and wounded seems greater than the casualties of yesterday’s market strike.
Since we do our best to check our sources and both the Guides team and I believe in tracking down dodginess when we can — and revealing it even if it weakens the case we might be making, we wanted to be very clear about our agreement that this video is not a legitimate report of events yesterday in Gaza.
What is being done in Gaza is horrific enough, the truth disturbing enough without embellishment. There is confirmation now of the use of clusterbombs, and evidence of the use of white phosphorous.
And there was a market in Gaza hit yesterday by the Israelis. The Times of London reports – and it is no less horrific for not being the subject of this video:
Nobody even knows what kind of shell it was that hit Gaza City’s main vegetable market this morning – the explosives are falling so thick and fast it could have come from an Israeli naval vessel, an F-16 fighter-bomber, an Apache helicopter gunship, an unmanned drone, an artillery cannon or a tank.
But the results were unmistakable. With Gaza’s ambulance service stretched far beyond its normal capacity, the first mangled bodies arrived in private cars as locals scrambled to save the lives of the shoppers.
The first to be carried in was a boy, his face masked in blood from a head wound as medics whisked him into the overcrowded emergency rooms. The next car disgorged a girl, perhaps 12 or 13 years old, her entrails blown out through a hole in her back by shrapnel.
Medics said five people were killed in the market bombing, and 40 wounded. Israel said it had no knowledge of a market being hit.
Let’s leave aside the authenticity of the video as a genuine report on what happened in Gaza yesterday. I still think it is important.
This video is very disturbing and folks should know that before viewing. It is very graphic and should not be viewed by children.
I thought a lot last night about the video – and why it hit harder than all those others that have become almost commonplace on youtube, all that footage that is shown on the news, less here than in other countries, but more often now shown with the usual warnings about “may find disturbing” and such.
Here’s what makes this, at least to my mind, so different.
When we see the pictures, the blood and body parts, the children broken and crying, the medics rushing the wounded to an overflowing, understaffed, undersupplied hospital, we see one moment of the actual, real cost of our wars.
But what we never see, what we never hear – are the moments before the medics arrive, before the aid team gets there, before the reporters and cameras arrive. The moments when people, regular everyday people like you and I, like our parents and our children, are thrown into the chaos and frenzy and horror of having their homes, their neighborhood, their everyday lives blown into bloody bits.
So much of what we’ve talked about here these past few years has been about bombings, US air strikes on Iraq, on Afghanistan and now the US bought and sold Iraeli air strikes and shelling of Gaza.
And what we see in this video is the moment, the moment when the world explodes for people just like us.
Almost two years ago, Mohammed Ibn Laith wrote about that moment which he has lived so many times in What Shall We Talk About Today You and I? I went back this morning to read it once again, I hope you will too.
Everywhere inside there are pieces of flesh and blood and rubble. Pulling the living flesh from the rubble. Separating the living from the dead. Climbing over rubble to reach bloodied living flesh. She is so small she cannot be older than 5. The cars and the trucks and the vans begin to arrive. A man takes my bloodied burden from me and others run in to help. I run to the next shop.
Where is my brother?
There is nothing to be done here. Where is my brother?
The others of my team are here. Doing as our trainers have shown us. Doing the things that must be done in the first few minutes. All 5 of us are here now. We do as our trainers have shown us. Doing the things that must be done in the first few minutes.
Where is my brother?
What will we talk about today you and I? I do not want to talk about last Saturday. Shall we talk about peace? I would like to talk about peace. I love the word. No, perhaps we are not ready to talk of peace yet you and I, we are not at peace, we are not even at truce.
Moving round the market with my team. Taking wounded people to the waiting cars. Where are the ambulances? Where are the police? Will the Americans stop the cars and buses and vans carrying the wounded and the dieing to the hospitals as they have done so often before?
…
Showing the helpers how to pick up the pieces of human flesh. Put your hand inside one plastic bag pick it up. Drop it into the plastic sack. Move on to the next piece. One of them has not done this before his hand is shaking so much that he drops a piece of dead human flesh to the ground. But before I can get to him another whose face I recognise from before moves to him and shows him how to do it properly. They stay together the experienced helping the new. The first time is hardest. The new one’s shoulders are moving up and done as he works. He stands up and runs to a stall his helper running after him. He stands his shoulders moving up and down. His helper’s hand upon his shoulder. My brother calls out:
O God! Pardon our living and our dead, the present and the absent, the young and the old, the males and the females.
They go back to work.
O God! Pardon our living and our dead, the present and the absent, the young and the old, the males and the females.
Lips moving with each piece that they pick up and put into their plastic sacks.
O God! Pardon our living and our dead, the present and the absent, the young and the old, the males and the females.
What will we talk about today you and I? I do not want to talk about last Saturday. Shall we talk about peace? I would like to talk about peace. I love the word. No, perhaps we are not ready to talk of peace yet you and I, we are not at peace, we are not even at truce.
Today, in this video, no matter when it was shot or the bombing it records, we see that moment, we hear that moment and perhaps we begin to understand a bit more.
Each day, as we hear the news of another bomb in Iraq, another destroyed wedding party in Afghanistan, another day of the Israeli war on Gaza, each day, let us remember that this is what it looks like, this is what it sounds like and it is our weapons, our funding, our government’s support which so often makes this possible.
Thank you to markfromireland for his help in analysing this video and for his understanding, to Mohammed Ibn Laith for his words. Special thanks as well to Michael Braymen for his map which reminds us how very small Gaza is, how very small the area where 1.5 million Gazans are living under a rain of bombs.
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Thank you Siun. I believe you are making an extremely important point. To know, to see, and to empathically imagine the experience of a bombing–whereever it happens– the suffering of the victims–whoever they are–the pain of those seeking to help them–whoever they are– that is the enduring value of the video.
Reddit comment thread regarding this video.
But of course it doesn’t matter that the video shows the aftermath of a Hamas bomb. It only proves how evil
the JewsZionists are.Someone linked to this in late in your morning thread, Siun. Was a rawstory link.. with no verification efforts.
Painful in the extreme to be sure.. and far to easy to imagine dozens of scenes just like it now, on any given day in Gaza.
Thanks to both you and mfi, for doing the dirty digging.
Here’s the digg for this post, firedogs.
That you can read this article and say that speaks volumes about your own bias.
Kenosha, I recognize that you have a point you’ve been making in all the Gaza threads, but could you perhaps read the post rather than misinterpreting what I said?
no, it shows how evil senseless death is.
It might seem that the Qassam rockets are more than “nagging.”
We know the horror of quotidian life in Gaza is beyond anything that we generally have to experience in our daily lives. Knowing that any second can bring unexpected attacks on the children is not gaining Israel and the US any friends.
Obama has opinions on many things for which he could say that there is only one President at a time; the biggest is the economic stimulus that he plans to do. He could at least have had the decency not to be seen out playing golf while Gaza is being bombed. He could have made some general statement about how he hoped that there could be some pause in the bombing. He could have given some indication that he felt some compassion for the Palestinians. His refusal to say anything and his appointment of rahm as his CoS is telling.
Did someone use the word “nagging”? in fact I don’t remember talking about Qassams at all.
We, the USA, need to conceive of a foreign policy in which US interests are recognized as separate and potentially different from Israeli interests, our alliance notwithstanding.
Much has been said about what it means to be a good friend. We should be a good friend. Under Bush, we have been nothing short of enablers.
It’s one thing to lose moral authority by launching a war of choice on trumped up intel in Iraq, it’s another to make transparent statements about lasting truce while Israeli’s pound the life out of
LebanonGaza City.We are no safer, having invaded Iraq and given extremists the best recruiting motive imaginable. Neither is Israel who is raising the next generation of Hamas ideologue’s determined to fight their murdering oppressors.
It is not lost on the rest of the world that the US supplies Israel with enormous sums of financial and military aid. We are implicated as enablers when Israeli policies are perceived as oppressive apartheid and war with overwhelming force, even when the policy is a response to the terrorism and threat of harm of missiles or suicide bombers.
Kenosha, get a grip… Even American Jews are appalled…
I think it’s important to emphasise what Christina said here:
This video “felt” wrong for what was being claimed for it. Some of us truly care for peace and work for it. We don’t need to sink to the level of the warmongers and the Zionists with their Goebbels like tactic of the big lie. We don’t need to because we’re better and stronger than that. Christina and I put in a lot of work on this. Gladly … um well …. willingly anyway ….. for one simple reason.
The truth is a powerful weapon.
The crisp looking uniforms struck me at the time but my knowledge in the area isn’t such that it raised much of a flag. Now it comes together. I also thought I saw an armed individual with a ski mask on near the beginning. I thought that rather odd at the time as well. It didn’t match the appearance of the raw footage at the police station last week.
Condemnations of Peace process?
Reading my post it seems a bit trite, which is not my intention. These rockets are dangerous for all. More palestinians than Israeli’s have been killed by them, if my recollections is correct. My point is that those in Gaza can not seem to see, or chose not to see, how destructive and senseless the rocket attacks are. I have said before, I in no way approve of the killing of any people any where for any reason. I am at a loss to figure out how to stop it, other than making it impossible for them to be made and fired. There is a saying, that when palestinians love their children more than they hate the Israeli’s there will be peace. Nothing that has happened since the latest conflict changes my views on that.
Condemnations or Peace process?
Here is a reference to the “nagging” attacks. This link is to a report commenting on a washington post op ed. You might also see this comment on Slate for more info.
According to the Associated Press, the US blocked a security council resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip.
And my thanks to you both for your efforts on this. I hope those who have been quick to sneer when questions about the vid were raised will recognize the efforts you two made to establish its provenance–and note that no one rushed to defend it. I corrected my posts a minute after reading this one (and link back to you, Siun, as I think your main point is spot on).
Are you deliberately being a revolting little ghoul or are you merely incapable of behaving any better?
No, don’t bother, I’m utterly uninterested in anything to do with the likes of you.
freedom or family is not a difficult choice especially when it is jammed in your face every day.
The Financial Times confirmed that report as well.
Thank you Laura – and thank you for asking the right question about cluster bombs in your post at Oxdown yesterday – a question sadly answered by Israel’s confirmation in Ha’aretz today.
You are right on target.
The Zionists of the world are totally responsible for the Gaza holocaust.
Too many folks from FDL fall victim to the constant distortions of truth coming from the MSM.
The video, regardless of it’s origin, reminds me of how violence begets more violence. It is no surprise that the people witnessing these sorts of atrocities might swear revenge and the cycle continues…
It breaks my heart to see Israel’s stupidity
It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim – peace – until it stops thinking in military terms
Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine. (rabbilerner@tikkun.org)
Please read this plea for a solution for both sides.
Revolting little ghoul?
How does one stop a cycle of violence? The Israelis have been appropriating Palestinian land for over 80 years. Israeli supporters say that there was never a sovereign state of Palestine. So what? When the British took control of the area from the Ottoman Empire there were people living there and they were known as Palestinians. There were Jews living there and they too were known as Palestinians. Once the door was opened to Jewish immigration by the Balfour Declaration the provisions of the Declaration regarding Arab land were disregarded. Its been offense and retaliation since.
A saying among whom? Prejudge much? Condescend much?
I’ve been fighting with a neocon all night on my blog about this video. The truck in the video does not appear to be damaged by a truck bomb. To me, it appears to have been in the path of the rocket instead. Anyone else question this truck?
Anyway, when RawStory retracted I did so in the comments, but I still think there is something to this video, because why else would YouTube be scrubbing it as some are claiming online?
I hope Mike Bloomberg carries a message of peace to Tel Aviv. What a showboater.
Love the map, Siun, but it needs one more thing to make drive home the context of Gaza.
To continue the comparison with Gaza, you need to do two things. First, take the population of Rhode Island and increase it by fifty percent, and second, put every last one of them into that one little strip labeled “Gaza.” It’s one of the most densely populated places in the world: 10,665 people per square mile. By contrast, Rhode Island is second among US states in population density at 1012.3 people per square mile. IOW, Gaza is ten times more densely populated than Rhode Island.
Think about that the next time you walk down the street without bumping into someone.
NY Mayor Syndrome
We don’t call other commenters names here.
Dershowitz is on Larry King Live saying that it’s only a matter of time before one of the Qassams hits a kindergarten in Israel…! *gah* How many Palestinian schools have they hit already since the start of this fiasco…?
AND–to make it ideal, show the street scene with 51.1 % of the people being 18 and under.
Sounds like Bloomberg’s message is a tad, shall we say, one-sided.
As I recall, this all began as children were leaving school–and some were killed/injured.
I heard a statement by the US Envoy stating, paraphrasing here, that the US objected to the resolution because Hamas wouldn’t honour it anyway, so why bother. I was floored.
Golda Meir said it and how about turning it around the other way. There are no tanks and planes owned by people in Gaza. Overkill? Yes
Dershowitz, my favourite apologist. Criticize anything, anything, Israel says or does and you’re anti-Semitic, end of discussion.
Yes .. the air strikes were begun at the time when morning session kids leave their schools for home and afternoon session kids are heading in.
7 students of the UN school were killed right outside while waiting for a bus
and the American International School, where 200 Gazan kids study a progressive secular curriculum was leveled completely. It had been evacuated first – ”only” the security guard was killed.
Given that he also has been the pundit for how good and useful torture is…
You can’t even be bothered to get the quote right:
Golda Meir – one of Israel’s most blatantly racist leaders. It takes genuine wickedness to say something like that. To claim that somebody fighting for their very survival while being ethnically cleansed is suffering from misplaced blind rage and doesn’t love their children.
At least Meir was honestly racist which is more than can be said for you.
Over at TP, a commenter, appropriately named ThunderPig, had the audacity to say that those airbursts were anti-SAM countermeasures to fend off the Grads and Fajr-3’s missiles… One little prob, they’re Surface-to-Surface missiles not SAMs… Btw, Siun, TP gave ya a hearty hat tip…!
Nice to know – thanks CT!
ON the “airbursts” … here’s a post just live from Hubris Sonic:
http://www.fightingliberals.co…..-gaza.html
worth the read!
From The TimesJanuary 5, 2009
It breaks my heart to see Israel’s stupidity
It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim – peace – until it stops thinking in military termsMichael Lerner
Israel’s attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.
But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas’s indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel’s killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).
Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.
Hamas has made it clear that it would accept the terms of the Saudi Arabian peace agreement, though it would never formally recognise Israel. It would live peacefully in a two-state arrangement, but it would never acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist”. This position is unnecessarily provocative, and is deeply self-destructive for Palestinians who believe it is the only symbolic weapon they have left.
How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:
— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.
— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.
— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.
Part 2
From The TimesJanuary 5, 2009
It breaks my heart to see Israel’s stupidity
It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim – peace – until it stops thinking in military termsMichael Lerner
Israel’s attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.
But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas’s indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel’s killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).
Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.
Hamas has made it clear that it would accept the terms of the Saudi Arabian peace agreement, though it would never formally recognise Israel. It would live peacefully in a two-state arrangement, but it would never acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist”. This position is unnecessarily provocative, and is deeply self-destructive for Palestinians who believe it is the only symbolic weapon they have left.
How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:
— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.
— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.
— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.
— Israel releases all Palestinians in detention and returns them to the West Bank or Gaza according to the choice of the detainees or prisoners. Hamas releases Gilad Schalit and anyone else being held by Palestinian forces.
— Both sides invite an international force to implement these agreements
— Both sides agree to end teaching and/or advocacy of violence against the other side in and outside mosques, educational institutions, and the media.
— This ceasefire would last for 20 years. Nato, the UN, and the US all agree to enforce this agreement and impose severe sanctions in the event of any violations.
These steps would make a huge difference, isolate the most radical members of each side from the mainstream, and make it possible to then begin negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a broader and deeper set of issues.
The basic condition for creating peace is to help each side feel “safe”. A first and critical step is to speak in a language that is empathic toward the suffering of each people in a climate of discourse in which both sides’ stories are heard and understood.
Yet Israel, as the militarily superior power, ought to take the first steps: implementing a massive Marshall Plan in Gaza and in the West Bank to end poverty and unemployment, rebuild infrastructure and encourage investment; dismantle the settlements or make settlers become citizens of a Palestinian state; accept 30,000 Palestinian refugees annually back into Israel for the next 30 years, apologise for its role in the 1948 expulsions and offer to co-ordinate a worldwide compensation effort for all that Palestinians lost during the Occupation; and recognise a Palestinian state within borders already defined by the Geneva Accord of 2003.
Part 3
This is the only way Israel will ever achieve security. It is the only way to permanently defeat Hamas and all extremists who wish to see endless war against Israel.
The most significant contribution the new Obama administration could make to Middle East peace would be to embrace a strategy that homeland security is best achieved not by military or economic domination but by generosity and caring for others. If this new way of thinking could become a serious part of US policy, it would have an immense impact on undermining the fearful consciousness of Israelis who still see the world more through the frame of the Holocaust and previous persecutions than through the frame of their actual present power in the world.
It breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering in Gaza and in Israel. As a religious Jew I find it all the worse, because it confirms to me how easy it is to pervert the loving message of Judaism into a message of hatred and domination. I remain in mourning for the Jewish people, for Israel and for the world.
Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine. (rabbilerner@tikkun.org)
With UN Peackeepers doing the searching and maintaining the ceasefire…!
Reuters reported yesterday that the US has blocked a demand for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, in last night’s emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council. Libya–the only Arab member of the UNSC–had proposed the ceasefire, but the US “insists that any statement or resolution state that the Palestinian militant group Hamas is a terrorist organization that seized power in Gaza from the legitimate Palestinian Authority.” Council statements must pass unanimously; the US demand leaves the council in a deadlock. Diplomats now say an “informal statement” that summarizes what has been agreed upon is likely, but won’t include a call for a ceasefire or troop withdrawal.
(from comment #2 of my other Oxdown post of yesterday–you can get the Reuter’s link there if you want it.)
The ugliness of the politics of this, the stalling, the obfuscating, the lying, blaming and–yes–whining going on right now disgusts and appalls me. Better, apparently, to bitch than to be useful to our fellow human beings.
This White Phosphorous accusation has been bouncing around the blogs all day with no source. Hopefully it will be debunked as swiftly as the video.
(I didn’t mean to imply I thought you were bitching…just re-read and realized it might look that way!)
I have just been in a lengthy discussion with military and chemical pro’s who went over the photos – including several Iraq vets who were involved with dropping WP in Iraq – and all agree that the photos show the use of WP – and in particular it’s use in a way will cause great harm to civilians.
new Phoenix Woman post
Please STFU…!!!
[Mod Note; let’s make our point without the insults please.]
Not at all. Thank you all the same…)
Did you check the link that Siun posted beneath “white phosphorus” in the post? She sources it to the Times of London — hardly a blog or a liberal source — which opens their story like this:
Heh, A wise acre, eh…? ;-)
As someone who saw WP rounds up close in Vietnam I must say the pictures look pretty damned convincing.
It is so disturbing to see the CNN reporters framed against the continuous footage of WP and cluster bombs … with no mention beyond “that was a big explosion” and such.
Ditto.
I still think people should wait for more confirmation before making accusations, considering past events.
Anyone notice the way the NYT covered Gaza yesterday? A pretty picture of a clean, unhurt young boy leaving Gaza, no front page text, just a pointer to p.5.
On page 5, there’s a big story about an Afghan game that involves a headless goat. A bigger picture than the front page one about the child leaving Gaza. Down below, taking up less than half the space below the fold, sits the Gaza article: headline is “Escalation feared as Israel, continuing bombing, lets foreighers leave Gaza”. That article in continued on p.7.
On page 7, if you have managed to follow the bread crumbs this far, is a large picture, black and white, of a street jammed with mourners, and little more than a single column of text down the left side of the page, next to the crease.
If you want coverage of events in Gaza, don’t expect to get it from the NYT.
Paper of record, right?
Standing there for days.. and never asking (demanding) what type of bombs.. get me an expert, or 3!
They’re such “in depth” reporters and just love big booms. Makes a great story, doncha know.
I’m sure the Gazans underneath ‘em feel better about ‘em being used as SMOKESCREENS!
Just stunning, eh?
In the casualty reports – including those from non Palestinian doctors on the scene – there are high numbers of women and children in the numbers of wounded – and many of those are seen with extreme burns – 50-60% of the body, 2nd to 3rd degree.
If it were a sporting event.. after this much time we would know about each players mothers ingrown toenail back in ‘82.
iirc the israelis were using wp in the west bank as well. i seem to remember some photos of people who looked melted accompanying an article about “encouraging” palestinians to leave so israelis could settle there. was it hebron?
Siun and fellow posters, thank you.
I am awed by the ostrich-like head-in-sand burying of so many of my homeland acquaintances about this massacre. Corporate media minimization doesn’t help, but still. Glenn Greenwald maintains 71% of the US public want BALANCED even-handed behavior of the US in dealing with the Mideast. But our political ruling party, our corporate media, once again exhibit total DISCONNECT to the public. And send out the spin doctors. Or simply media’s blackouts reality. WE HAVE BEEN LIVING IN A SOCIETY WHERE REALITY IS IRRELEVANT!
And Bloomberg’s statement was so similar to that one of Obama’s about “rockets aimed at a city with his daughters, etc.” was so much like the Repub talking point pattern, drum-beating — I was stunned. Wow … patriarchal cronyism one more time.
Human lives are pawns in the games of the ruling classes. Human life cheap. It is heart-breaking for hearts still struggling to feel … fighting chronic low grade PTSD over this decade!
CRONYISM PREVAILS …
I wonder if folks realize that each of those streams of smoke represents a piece of WP that will burn through damn near anything it touches.
OUCH,
perhaps the other part of my message is lost in the noise. I do not defend the government of Israel’s actions. I am not trying to justify the response. If that is what is taken away from my comments, than I clearly don’t write well. Seemingly, some would not argue with that point.
My message is that the actions can be seen as something other than Ethnic cleansing. As noted, I was not quoting anyone, as the lack of ” “’s would demonstrate.
I am distrubed that I am labeled by some commenters as a “racist” is just as aggravating as when Durshwistz (sp?) makes the claims. There are very valid condemnation of Israelis military response here, but when some resort to name calling and claims of prejudging or worse undermine those comments. I am not a frequent commenter and the reason for that is that I usually agree whole heartedly with the positions. But, I try to wait for confirmed facts to be established before I issue judgment. My comments have attempted to temper some of the comments before ALL of the facts are known. I understand that Israel makes that hard to do when they prevent reporting under the guise that they are trying to save journalists lives. In fact that position will save lives, but whose lives is not yet known.
So, after the ramble, I merely ask that the name calling cease. Reasonble people can disagree. Further they may not disagree as much as might initially seem in the heat of the moment. Let’s agree to be respectful to each other even when we disagree.
I was issued WP grenades in the event I had to get rid of COMSEC material… We were trained to put them on top of our safes and let ‘em burn through…!
Can I get a link?
http://www.today.com/ctr.cgi?i…..8;mode=vip
There will be no peace in Gaza. One must remember this battle started over 2000 year ago, not yesterday. Read the articles provided in the link.
Mod note: Link does not work.
Hopefully, as in let’s hope they are not using wp shells, or hopefully it WILL BE debunked as swiftly [and as a correctly] as the video [because I want it that way so I can argue the point that way.]
I think you meant the later and you said it without any information, which means you are disingenuous. If that’s so, you deserve the smackdown you get because you argue without facts, instead you argue with a desire for facts that supports your position as if you had those facts. In Indianapolis we call that “weazel”.
Odds are the WP weapons are at least in part manufactured at the Pine Bluff Arsenal, Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and provided to Israel by us.
There was a point in 67-68 the Navy ran out of 5-inch WP rounds. The Army spotters routinely called for Willy Peter from the destroyers providing gunfire support just off the coast. “3 rounds Willy Peter. Fire for effect.”
Whoops, I meant to add a link – Senator Mark Pryor statement on WP and the Pine Bluff Arsenal.
http://jta.org/news/article/20…..terrorists
Wow, the only US manufacturer of WP…
This dimishes our “Humanity” as a species the brutishness coming out reflects how much more cruel humans are than animals… Picking up pieces of flesh with plastic bags.
Concieving such a military tactic is illegal under international law.
Concieving such a military tactic is imoral, unethical and against all present military conventions.
It is slaughter less human than the butchers at rendering plants.
One more direct link to all of us being war criminals. And what I worry about most are the chemicals in the Arsenal which they wont tell us about. It’s awfully close to the Arkansas River… and not that far from large populations.
“fire for effect” simply means “execute your fire mission”
Nothing more
Thereby, take out one’s entire family… Makes perfect sense to me…! WTF?
What we don’t need is the Iranian people seeing the US and Israel as one in the same. And yet, we give them every reason to do so.
What’s your point?
Yeah, take out the whole family and know, for a moral certainty, it was their fault.
start with the video here http://firedoglake.com/2009/01…..-crisis-2/
Sounds strange, but this is a sparkling piece, Siun and mfi.
Thank you for being heads-up.
I don’t know how credible this is, but could prove interesting if true.
Iran Threatens to Break Israel’s Gaza Blockade
Exactly – that whole “human shield” argument looks pretty thin in a region with roughly the population density of Toronto. There really is nowhere to go….
Eli is upstairs!
Was Ann Coulter Lying About The Media Then, Or Is She Lying About It Now?
Someone is doing agent provocateur work to discredit us smells like Rove! Good job Siun, MarkfromIreland if its Rove expect more of this lots more that and the GOP MSM talking heads to already have talking points up and ready for Monday’s tv news shows.
Iran tried once before to send a ship with humanitarian supplies. It was unclear how likely they thought delivery would be or if the effort was designed to send a message.
Israeli sources keep describing the attack on Gaza as part of the battle with Iran which also makes me nervous at some of the Iran related pieces that get floated.
What’s equally sick and makes more readily evident the intent of Israel are the reports of Depleted Uranium being found in the wounded and the dead.
DU will infect and poison, over the years.
Both within the body, and without the body.
So not only will the wounded die sooner or later, but everyone NOT wounded is being or gong to be exposed to levels of DU, which have proven to be poisonous to our troops in the First Gulf War, and in the recent one.
The google is there, so are the links, none at my fingertips at this moment and I’m too lazy to go find that which I’ve read today.
Those who will berate me, do yer own homework. Y’all hardly ever post yer OWN sourcings, either.
This is a deliberate attempt to waste an entire peoples and where they live. It reminds me of Iraq (and a lot of other examples). Same patterns, same processes. Same modeling. All funded and drafted up by good ole USA. I’m sure we’ve learned a lot from history’s previous episodes of invasion, elimination and genocide. There are plenty to draw from.
And now we are one who will be drawn from, in the future . . .
Just curious – how would medical workers distinguish DU from any other metal bits they find in wounds?
And why would Israelis use DU so close to home?
Skilly,
Think for a moment about that quote about Palestinians and the love their bear their children. Would you be comfortable saying that about any other group of people? Do you really think that Palestinians do not love their children more?
I find that particularly in discussions of islamic people, an awful lot of “people say” things fly around … normally said by pols and pundits who have very racist agendas but cover them in some pretense of “of course they are not so civilized – not like us.” And it is very easy, even without meaning to be outright racist to adopt those “sayings” as if they reflected some truth we are all supposed to know. We must never forget that other people, no matter their religion or location, love their children as much as we – and mourn their loss as we would.
This statement also assumes that it is the Palestinians fault … and history just does not support that assumption, neither do the facts of the current situation.
Larue,
I’ve seen the DU reports and know it is/has been extensively used on Iraq. I am not yet convinced it is being used by Israel in Gaza. There are some reasons to think it unlikely – cost for example – and so far no medical reports that I’ve seen that are trustworthy.
It does seem that cluster bombs, WP and the new DIME weapons are being used or some combination of those …it is understandably hard to get clear information – and this is one of many reasons why Israel’s refusal to allow reporters into Gaza is immensely disturbing.
ALL PEOPLE have the right to live in PEACE and WORSHIP as they please without the fear of rockets falling on them or suicide bombers blowing them up. To live in PEACE, you are allowed to use force as self-defense when anyone KILLS your Olympic athletes, keeps ATTACKING you, BLOWING themselves and everyone up around them and KIDNAPPING your soldiers and citizens.
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If anyone allows bombers, killers, kidnappers and rocketeers are set up camp in or next to their house, their back yard or mosque they shouldn’t complain when their entire family and their children are wiped out in a retaliatory strike. They should complain beforehand to the suicide bombers, the rocketeers, the killers and the kidnappers who are storing or setting up the weapons and launchers nearby and placing their lives in jeopardy.
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The problem is that Hamas and Hezbollah do this all the time and it’s accepted-they place their own families and people in jeopardy because they believe in jihad, hatred and revenge. They want to become martyrs and they believe their entire families and everyone else should want this also. Look at the Palestinian, Iranian and Syrian TV shows as I have done and see the hatred they are teaching their own children. They teach their kids that it’s O.K. to take innocent lives and destroy infidels. They teach and practice terrorism and this is why these religious extremists are labeled TERRORISTS. Rational people would NEVER brainwash their own children and people in this sick way.
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For centuries, displaced rational people have picked up their tents and moved to a new location to start a new life. They BUILD and they teach their children to BUILD and move forward. This is what ALL the immigrants who came to AMERICA did and this is what made America great. Palestinians and ALL displaced people in the world can BUILD just like the displaced Jewish people did after WWII. The problem is that Islamic extremists have been brainwashed by their own people. They have been taught to hate, to do nothing but pray and go back and destroy.
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All the uninformed, closed-minded and brainwashed people can continue to demonstrate in countries all over the world. They have the right to FREE SPEECH, but when they stand by and silently agree to the launching of just one rocket against innocent people, they are all TERRORISTS.
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LOOK at what is POSSIBLE and LEARN from one Palestinian: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/58217.html
And LEARN what one Lebanese did with his life:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/…..sdanny.htm
Calligraphically inscribed in Arabic and translated in English, sum up his mission:
“He who denies his heritage has no heritage.”
“No child should die in the dawn of life.”
“Those who work for the good are as those who do the good.”
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AND THEN COPY AND PASTE AND SPREAD THIS MESSAGE OF REASON AROUND THE WORLD. MAY THE WORLD FIND PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN THIS NEW YEAR OF 2009.
I feel comfortable saying it about any group that glorifies and exalts the use of children to do acts of terrorism and/or war. When one thinks about that statement, the stress is not that they don’t love their children, it is on the seeming fact that they hate their enemies more. One commenter here put it in terms of, “freedom or family is not a difficult choice especially when it is jammed in your face every day.” Is it not forgotten that a two state option was given but rejected? If just one of the official governments in palestine would recognize Israel’s right to exist, wouldn’t a peaceful resolution be near?
Thanks, CT! Even greenhorns like me recognize this mole/troll for what he is. I may be wrong, but I’ve counted 6 new suspect names in the last 2 days.
I note from your prior posts that you and others are vets. Thanks for your service. Will you clear up something for me? When the bombs were raining down on Gaza I saw many that made huge white bursts high in the air from which many smaller white blobs rained down – almost like July fireworks. I wondered as I watched whether those were white phosphorus bombs. Please tell me what these were.
Thank you.
I wonder. Does Israel make its own ammunition, both large bore and small arms? If it buys ammo from the US there’s a good chance it includes DU.
Ferm at 101. They use a Radiac, what we used to call a Geiger Counter. It can register the smallest traces of radioactivity. DU will register on one.
Those were air bursts fired by either artillery or tanks. IMO they are WP rounds. The white streams are smoke from falling white phosphorus fragments. Each one will burn until it burns itself out. It cannot be extinguished.
Len, cutting and pasting some pre-digested … stuff … as a comment is not the way to engage the conversation, neither is your quite disturbing support for the deaths of civilians.
Agreed, the question is just whether it would make sense given the relative cost. I’m waiting to learn more or see a report I trust rather than jumping there yet – but sadly won’t be surprised if it turns out to be true.
I know some people – former Israelis – who used to work in extremely sophisticated arms manufacturing facilities in Israel. I have no idea, though, how much is made there and how much is imported. I chose not to ask a lot of questions because of the nature of my professional relationship with these people.
Apparently Palestinians aren’t people, they’re all terrorists… Btw, Where can 1.5 million people move to…? Considering the fact they’ve already have been forced into living in the most densely populated strip of land in the world…! Using your distorted logic… Aren’t we all terrorists by standing idly by…?
It does makes sense though that since they do buy from the US that there would be DU in it.
I still don’t see the sense of using Israelis this stuff so close to home, though.
1) I would assume that medical professionals in a hospital setting, even one as glum as that in Gaza, would know DU in the victims. Lab tests, and such would show it.
2) To kill what they need killed there. For a while. Until it kills. Later, they can clean it up when they wish to settle.
Life is simple, don’t fuck it up.
For details, google is yer friend . . . as I said.
Thanks. Not sure what you call not worthy reports, that I might have read today. Wish I had kept track . . . . but my instincts were to believe the use of DU. And Israel didn’t have to MAKE the munitions with the DU, they likely bought them from USA, ya know?
Thanks for your up to date posting on The Gaza Horrors. This one has gotten to me like Sabra/Chatila did . . . . a total and pure evil and horror committed upon a defenseless population by a bigger and well armed larger group.
Only it’s Israel actually DOING it this time, and not standing aside.
Thanks Larue. This one does hit hard …
And just to be clear, I’m not saying the reports you saw were not trustworthy, just that I don’t have one yet that I am comfortable with and I’m trying to be very careful about what I go with in a post.
Yes ma’am . . . and thanks SouthernDragon for the answers to the questions posed by Fern before I got to them . . . I would not have thought of a simple Radiac. You rawk, and always have. I’m outta here . . . for now . . best to all. These are hard times.
Thanks, SD. You are very helpful. As to the use of depleted uranium, wouldn’t it be naive to think Israel was not using it? What about directed energy weapons? And, didn’t we send Israel a bunch of drones?
Thanks for joining the march to stop this insanity. All those hundreds of thousands around the globe are made up one by one. I’m nowhere near a group that considers thinking outside the bushie-box.
Siun, Guardian has an excellent article…
Timesonline is trying to say that these shells create a chemical smokescreen for ground forces. I think they lie.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..nName=News
A close up picture..
http://www.elpais.com/fotogale…..-1/elpgal/
No, They are correct… White phosphorus (weapon)
When will people realize that Hamas wants you to see the innocent death and injuries.They dont want to broadcast black hooded men who fired rockets at Israel.There would be little sympathy from the outside world if thats all we saw!! Do young Isreali children killed by Hamas rockets deserve the same outrage???
We all seem to forget how hard Hamas has tried to make Gaza a wonderful place to live and raise a family!How they have tried SO hard to get along with their neihbors(Israel).How they have spent so much time rebuilding the infrastructure of Gaza.To bring peace and a good life for its citizens You people who condem Israel should look at how good the Hamas organization has been not only to regional peace BUT international peace!!Get Real!!! War is hell!! no one wishes it on anyone. Except Hamas!!
It’s awfully hard for anyone to make someplace a nice place to live when it has a huge wall around it (like a prison), where there is no way to grow food and the entire population is depending on aid agencies to supply them with food and medicine – and someone else decides how much and when to let it in every day, when you build a nice house and then someone else decides you are ‘doing something bad’ whether you are or not but the bulldozer doesn’t care and soon it’s all rubble again, when no one has a job or any money because someone else has decided not to let you outside the wall anymore.
The lies that are being repeated about Hamas staging a coup – ha. They were elected in a free and fair democratic election that was certified as free and fair by all the international observers. Fatah was defeated because of its corruption and because we (the US) and Israel told the Palestinians that they needed to change their government. They did. Legally and democratically. With the results you see here.
Why is this war going on now? Here is an easy answer. It’s not about Hamas rockets. It’s about the new gas field that was just discovered. It’s about Hamas stating that they were going to sell the gas to Egypt, and would not be selling any to Israel. It’s about the fact that Israel doesn’t have any gas fields. There. That’s the real reason. Oh, and a side note. It’s so the hardliners will win the election coming up in February. That’s what it is really all about. Nothing more.
I see we have some new voices here contributing yet another chorus of the age-old rant against The Other.
I’ve counted 10 suspects in the last 2 days.
It will be easier to build a decent place to live if local resources and energy are used towards that goal. Not wasted on accumulating weapons, spreading hatred and trying to “Slaughter the Jews”.
Let me remind you that during the six months of “cease fire” between Israel and Gaza/Hamas, Israel did not fire or bomb Gaza once, while the Hamas repeatedly fired rockets at Israeli residential areas, killing and injuring dozens.
I lived in that region for more than 20 years. There are good people on BOTH sides, and there are some crazy radicals on both sides. The difference is that on one side, the crazy radicals are either non-violent or they end up in jail, whereas on the other side, the crazy radicals lead by spreading fear and hate while driving the moderate majority to the ground.
How would you feel if Canada or Mexico started firing rockets at your home? Wouldn’t you want to go there and at least make sure they don’t have any more rockets?
What I meant was that they are not using it as a smoke screen for self defense purposes. It is falling on civilian areas and so I see it as an attack on civilians.
You must be referring to the crazy radicals in your political parties. Like Moshe Feiglin of the Ludik party who brags about ethnic cleansing of the Arabs?
http://video.google.ca/videopl…..5452525532
Let me remind you that Israel broke the ceasefire on Nov. 5th when they entered Gaza. Megaphones have one purpose..hasbara.
Israeli army trained in Gaza mock-up
The Israeli army spent 18 months training for its ground attack against Gaza on a model of the main city built at a desert army base, a military spokesman said.
“Our soldiers know all the back streets where their targets are,” military spokesman Avi Benayahou told Israeli public television.
“For a year and a half our soldiers trained on a reduced model of Gaza City built on the Tsehilim base” in the Negev desert of southern Israel, near the frontier with Gaza, he added.
Quit with the rocket propaganda..talk the theft of land, oil, and water just for starters. Learn the history of the Jews. There are many many Jews and there are Arab Jews, too.
Why Israel went to war:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..den-agenda
Read it. The propaganda master is bragging about how the Isreali’s went around the world for months and lied to politicians and the media in order to gain sympathy for the attack that they were plotting. Are you going to argue with the head of the hasbara operation? Continue to pretend the truth is not what it is?
The question we should be asking ourselves is what would this situation look like if the roles were reversed? History has shown us that Islamic peoples have absolutely no regard for civilian casualties, and actually seem to prefer them. The “civilians” in Gaza elected into power a group that has a charter that demands the destruction of Israel and death to Israelis… these people cheer and dance in the streets when reports of Israeli civilian deaths are made. Their children are indoctrinated with a “death to all infidels” mantra and their public radio and television demand the same constantly. Unfortunately, human beings like to forget the fact that we reap what we sow. These calls for “proportionality” are silly at best. Threats are to be eliminated by whatever means necessary. The only time “proportionality” is even relevant is when dealing with internal threats. If the people of Gaza do not wish to be subject to this kind of life, they must muster the courage to confront the members of Hamas and remove them from power. The FACT that billions of dollars of aid has been given to the Palestinians over the years and the people are still destitute should be enough evidence that their leadership is corrupt, that they also subject the children of their subjects to retaliation that they KNOW will result from their ridiculous rocket attacks proves that they need to be removed from power… one way or the other.