Jane, we need to ride their butts. Bless you!!

Morning Jane!

WTF, enough of this shit,will it ever end?

Given Reid’s pending fall from grace (bwahahaha!), is there a percentage in turning on the heat for new leadership in both houses? Would it matter if we did? (sigh)

When it comes to Isreal it seems they can do what ever they want ,and no questions asked

I have to say that the international opposition see perfunctory & powerless.

the Democratic Leadership is in complete lockstep with Bush — unilaterally supporting Israel’s actions, and placing the fullblame on Hamas.

Never bite the hand that feeds you?

Cnn,has this Israeli broad speaking in a Prozac voice,making it all seem like a little,housecleaning,and not a murderous massacre,is it too early to start drinking….why did they need to do this HORROR now?

If ordinary people like us were in charge ,none of this shit would ever happen!!

Terrorist or freedom fighter all depends on whose side you’re on!!

did you see my #143 to you, last thread?

We have the power to stop this with one phone call. That it hasn’t been made, puts this on us.

why did they need to do this HORROR now?

Because January 20 is coming in a hurry?

Thank you yet again Jane.

If we can’t have good news, I’d rather cope with the truth.

happynewyeardammit.

I’m gonna go find a pair of old skuzzy shoes with which to celebriate on Jan. 20. S’cuse. Gotta run or get behind in my pityparty here. *sigh*

Israel is the electric third rail of American politics.

Yup. See my 160. No easy answers. Ick!

I assume Reid and Pelosi are up to their elbows in this. How does one dislodge a congr. misleader? If they were football coaches, we, the owners, would just fire them outright.

If we can’t have good news, I’d rather cope with the truth.

Pretty profound, and seemingly counter to political practices, where the equivalent to the Hippocratic Oath seems to be, “First, cover your butt.”

That’s the question I posed at emptywheel’s yesterday.

Cheney took a trip there recently didn’t he?

(((Barbara)))

It’s time to stop sighing and start thinking of alternatives. That will come after continued lame actions by Pelosi and Reid. How much time it will take-because we have to think in revolutionary terms-not of blood in the streets but of the so called common person’s relation to power. Apparently we need more discontent than is presently out there.

I can only cry.

The mess in the ME will never stop until Israel is stopped. Whether that is by overwhelming international condemnation, my hope, or by overwhelming force from non-Israeli nations, my expectation, only time will tell. Expecting that the US will step in and condemn the Israeli government is pie in the sky, not going to happen they are all shit scared of aipac, for whatever reason, and it will take a far more independent person that BO to change the current kowtowing to the likudites.

Israel will continue it’s fascist policies and will continue to try expand their territory and they will continue to commit genocide and they will continue to ignore UN resolutions until such time as the oil rich non-jewish states cut them off. Israel must be blockaded, they must get no oil and no food and no medicines until they decide that they had better change their policies. They can threaten non-jewish states all they want but frankly they would never dare use their nukes as they would be wiped out , totally.

[mod note; Comment edited by moderator. Please do not suggest acts of violence against other people or peoples. Thank you.]

Harry Reid is up for re-election in 2010. Are there any Democratic primary candidates we could back?

- Tom

Glen Greenwald had a post on this yesterday. It’s worth the read.
He asks why Dem leadership is in lockstep with Rethugs in everything pro-Israel when the country is split evenly. Effectively gives half of us no voice.

Since Harry Reid was a boxer at one time in his life, I think it’s time for us to get in the ring with him and give that old man a go around. I’d like to throw the first punch too. Or maybe we should just follow that asshole around and throw our shoes at him wherever he goes.

The only real progressive in our midst is Dennis Kucinich, you know, the man I wanted for president and the one who was lambasted by Democrats across this country for being too short and for having funny looking ears to be president. Spit. If Dennis was the President-elect right now, Israel would be wondering what the hell hit them.

I’m with you here. Been preachin’ “Storm the Bastille” for eight years. Not so much in pitchfork mode as in huge, visible, vocal presence mode. Edwin Friedman (no relation to Friedman-unit-man, far as I know) wrote a family systems book titled “Generation to Generation.” One of his key concepts goes something like this: Show up, differentiate yourself, speak your truth and then maintain a non-anxious presence. Actually, that’s pretty cool. Politically, I take this to mean show up, speak our truth, and then don’t back down. But just stay politely (?) in their space such that they must acknowledge your/our presence and respond. There’s a tendency among some folks (I’ve done it) to fling flames on the fly rather than stand in there and make a good case and continue standing in there. I’m becoming redundant. Enough.

Well, crap, we’ve had eight years of training in that school, haven’t we? /s

Have been here all morning..must run. Just a suggestion for those who missed it. For wonderful diversions…see the humor in the “Get a Room Thread” and see the Moyers’ show from last night. Gifts, both. Later.

PS
For whatever reason the jewish people have made themselves profoundly unpopular throughout the ages.

This is interesting:

WASHINGTON — After a week of Israeli bombardment of the Gaza strip, Israel, Arab countries and the United States are discussing how to create an international force that would safeguard an eventual cease-fire, diplomats said Friday.

* Posted on Friday, January 2, 2009

Israel, U.S., Arab nations discuss international force for Gaza

By Warren P. Strobel | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — After a week of Israeli bombardment of the Gaza strip, Israel, Arab countries and the United States are discussing how to create an international force that would safeguard an eventual cease-fire, diplomats said Friday.

A key part of the arrangement, they said, is that the main Palestinian rival to the ruling Hamas party would be asked to take charge of border crossings. The diplomats spoke only on the condition of anonymity because the proposals are still in their infancy and could be overtaken by events, such as an Israeli ground incursion into Gaza. Israel’s bombardment already has killed some 400 people, as many as a quarter of them civilians.

The most difficult aspect under discussion was how to bring Gaza’s border crossings under the control of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah security forces, which Hamas violently ejected from the Mediterranean enclave in 2007.

I think that is an illusion. The power of Isreal in our domestic politics is much less than it once was and certainly not a ‘third rail.’

God Behold! What have I done?

The Bush Family & Friends Oil Cartel and the Israeli government are the real terrorists of the planet.

Eventually the war i n Iraq will end, our troops will come home and Al-Quaida will have no one to fight there!
Is there any doubt these Al-Qaida fighters won’t end up in Gaza or any of the Palistinian’s camps.

We had some very effective sit ins during the sixties and seventies. Many times we just sat there until we forced recognition and change.

I do believe that the advent of blogging and such has given vent to people who might rather have vented by marching or sitting in. We have gained a lot with the ‘net but have lost a lot as well.

PDA..Progressive Democrats of America has an action letter that might interest you. Stop the Gaza Massacre-Enforce the law
http://capwiz.com/pdamerica/is…..ake+Action

Their home page..
http://pdamerica.org/index.php

Board list..
http://pdamerica.org/tools/pda/Adboard.pdf

main Palestinian rival to the ruling Hamas

The main Palestinian force opposed to Hamas a=was roundly defeated in a free and fair election.

I don’t think the Palestinians will tolerate their presence. Plus getting into either the West Bank, Gaza or the refugee camps won’t be all that easy.

Aint that just a barrel of truth

I suppose we could turn our backs ,and pretend none of this is happening!

I don’t believe what Israel is doing is right but I think it’s rather pretentious to sit here and condemn them when Hamas was the one who opened fire on them in the first place. Hamas was also the one who didn’t want to continue the cease fire. We can say that fighting is bad and that the loss of life isn’t worth what is happening but we cannot simply place the blame on one side. We don’t know what it’s like to be there, in Palistine, in Gaza, in Israel and until we do know I don’t think we should be saying that Israel is a terrorist group.

What we need to do is help them *truly* obtain a truce, not a snide agreement where Israel can drop bombs on Gaza and where the Hamas government can launch missiles into Israel whenever they feel like it. We can’t just suddenly decide to pay attention now that Israel has launched a full on war but ignore the fact that for all intents and purposes the Hamas government has started this.

That being said, I think what is happening on both sides and their ways of dealing with it are wrong. However I’m not the one being bombed and I have no idea how I would feel if I was. Just keep that in mind before anyone accuses either side of being a ‘terrorist.’

Every time we come to a place like this (which has been more and more often over the past eight years), I think of Wellstone Action (formed after Paul Wellstone’s death), which is (in my view) the premier organization locally and nationally for training and empowering grassroots action. I’m acquainted with Jeff Blodgett, WA’s exec director, and maybe it’s time to make an appointment with him. I don’t even know what to ask him, but it sure as hell is time to make some appropriate noise. BTW, Blodgett took a leave from WA to me Minnesota’s campaign director for Obama. Bottom line: I don’t know what the hell to do, but there are people close by who do.

As the repugs love Israel so much lets just give the land back to the poor benighted Palestinians and ship the whole Israeli kit and kaboodle to Texas… they could even bring the damn nukes with them.

Not in my DNA.

Folks should look for something like this going on in their area. If there isn’t a group doing something, start one.

…from WA to me be Minnesota’s campaign director for Obama…

I’m not so sure of that,after many years of persecution they may be more apt to welcome outside help.
Or at the very least ,to adopt some of Al-Quada’s tactics.

Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territories. International law recognizes their right to resist occupation by any means necessary. I’m all for a non-violent solution to the Palestine/Israel problem but it’ll be a cold day in hell when I condemn the Palestinians for resisting Israel’s murderous occupation.

On Topic. Lawrence Lessig & Joe Trippi are starting a grassroots, internet based action against our corrupt Congress with the goal of removing corporate campaign financing (payola). Join at http://action.change-congress……p?key=2102

Israel broke the cease fire on Nov 4th by entering Gaza..

http://www.alertnet.org/thenew…..324026.htm

I don’t believe what Israel is doing is right but I think it’s rather pretentious to sit here and condemn them when Hamas was the one who opened fire on them in the first place.

Bull shit!

Israel never lived up to the cease fire that was supposed to include delivery food, water, electricity, medicines etc and they never opened the border crossings and the continued to expand settlements and the continued to build their concrete barrier. Israel has, in addition, ignore 22+ UN resolutions condeming their genocide against the Palestinian nation …..and I won’t get into the Oslo treaty that Israel broke before the ink was dry. No the Palestine freedom fighters are not blameless….they just want their land back and they continue to fight until they get what is righteously theirs.

Oh no. I’m not saying I condemn Palestine. I’m just saying there seems to be a lot of ‘Israel is the devil’ going on here when it’s not that simple. Israel is retaliating to Hamas rocket fire who I’m sure was retaliating from something else. You can’t just act like Israel got up one day and said ‘let’s bomb Gaza!’ because that’s not how easy it is. I don’t think either side is right, I’m just saying that it’s awfully pretentious to decide to place the blame fully on either side when a) we don’t live in that situation and b) nothing in this world is ever that simple.

righteously rightfully

How will international troops work? From where? How many? What will they be allowed to do when Hamas launches a rocket? Will they be allowed to shoot down Israeli aircraft after a “targeted killing”?

Very few countries would be acceptable to both sides. Turkey. Egypt, France maybe.

I think the plan is to turn it over to Fatah’s forces and let them take Hamas out in “family feuds”.

Boxturtle (Israel is not planning on letting Hamas survive in an effective form)

One of our major goals here should be to once and for all demolish the talking points the apologists and trolls use to justify Israel’s policies and actions.

Ainya, the IDF is a state sponsored terrorist organization. None of your bullshit will alter that fact.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware of that. Which is why I read these things and get into these discussions to begin with. Thanks for explaining things to me.

….you know I’m just trying to learn more about the situation. Sorry for getting you so upset. But I thought that’s what these blogs and discussion boards were for.

I would suggest that you gain some knowledge through reading non-american information. There is plenty out there.
http://english.pnn.ps/
http://english.aljazeera.net/

Here are two to get you started.

Well said, Jane.
Thanks

C

Thanks.

It is reported that even Dohbya in his newly stolen office was prepared to be reasonable about the Palestenians in 2001. Ever so gently, he began to question the incessant building in the West Bank. He promptly received a letter signed by 96 Senators, and another featuring most House members. The rationale went from the mundane (Senator Claghorn: “I can sign one letter, or I can answer five thousand.”) to the insane, which is that no politician can survive against the Israel Lobby simply because there is no alternative. Consequently we have Likud lobbyist Lieberman blithely ditching the Democratic party and coasting on the re-election and we have no discussion on what Israel might do to bring peace, which it doesn’t need if that means a Two-State Solution. There is more open debate in Israel than in America, which is owned and operated by Likud, as far as Middle East questions are concerned.

State sponsored murder happens to piss me off. People who justify and rationalize state sponsored murder piss me off.

PW is upstairs..

sorry – stepped away.

As to the feral pack, all they should ever hear from you is that you LOVE that house – don’t plan on leaving, ever.

If they really want it, your life estate is standing very firmly in their way.

It therefore has VALUE. If they want it – fine. But it’s gonna cost them if they want it now. Find a lawyer that can at least tie his shoelaces properly and you could walk away from all of this in pretty good shape.

excellent article from chris hedges yesterday. he’s always worth a read, but this time especially. there is no bit i can quote that does the essay justice, it must be read in full. here is how hedges begins:

Lost in the Rubble

I often visited Nizar Rayan, who was killed Thursday in a targeted assassination by Israel, at his house in the Jabaliya refugee camp when I was in Gaza. The house is now rubble. It was hit by two missiles fired by Israeli F-16 fighter jets. Rayan, who would meet me in his book-lined study, was decapitated in the blast. His body was thrown into the street by the explosions. His four wives and 11 children also were killed.

Rayan supported tactics, including suicide bombings, which are morally repugnant. His hatred of Israel ran deep. His fundamentalist brand of Islam was distasteful. But as he and I were students of theology our discussions frequently veered off into the nature of belief, Islam, the Koran, the Bible and the religious life. He was a serious, thoughtful man who had suffering deeply under the occupation and dedicated his life to resistance. He could have fled his home and gone underground with other Hamas leaders. Knowing him, I suspect he could not leave his children. Like him or not, he had tremendous courage.

Hamas, he constantly reminded me, began to target Israeli civilians in 1994 only after Palestinian worshipers were gunned down in a Hebron mosque by a Jewish settler, Baruch Goldstein. Goldstein was a resident of the nearby Kiryat Arba settlement. He entered the mosque dressed in his army uniform, carrying an IMI Galil assault rifle and four magazines of ammunition. He opened fire on those in prayer, killing 29 people and injuring 125. He was rushed and beaten to death by the survivors.

“Before the massacre we targeted only the Israeli military,” Rayan said. “We can’t sit by and watch Palestinian civilians killed year after year and do nothing. When Israel stops killing our civilians we will stop killing their civilians.”

i hope this is enough to tempt pups to read the rest.

I don’t support it. I said both sides are wrong. I’m trying to educate myself more about it however I never said either side was right, I just said a lot of blame is being placed heavily on one side and that usually things are never that simple.

thanks for hanging in. sometimes it’s hard not to lash out in frustration when there is so much unnecessary suffering being done in our name and with our tax $.

Great catch, selise. Gonna go read that rat now.

Thanks Jane.

digg

Seconded.

That I completely agree with. I know it’s a hot topic and that many people are very upset for a multitude of reasons. However it is nice to have discussions about things, whether or not I decided to play the devil’s advocate really I just want to learn more about what the hell is going on in the world. Lord knows everyone could stand a little more education.

Here’s a link to a piece that is written from the Palestinian point of view. It’s a few years old and I offer it as one of the rare histories of the conflict that does not adhere to the Israeli/US line.

Great piece. We should definitely spread this around.

Reddit Jane’s article here: http://www.reddit.com/r/politi….._reid_and/

i’ve been arguing against the “sides” frame:

the idea of “sides” is both false and unhelpful. “sides” implies that there is an israeli side, usually one that is characterized by the actions of their government and other leaders (likewise the palestinians). but the fact of the matter is that there are as many sides as there are israelis (and palestinians) – and the focus on “sides” helps us to lose sight of that.

there are israelis and palestinians who are and have been working together for peace – a peace the recognizes equality and the universality of human rights for all the people. when we focus on the “sides” we don’t see them and i think that is a mistake because it keeps us from being on the side of the peacemakers, people like jeff halper and ghassan andoni.

For reasons I won’t go into, we don’t trust each other when it comes to political action. A simple movement like not going to the movies to support the writers is beyond us. What a powerful message concerted action would send not only to the powers that be but to ourselves. The problem is simplified by there being two choices, representative democracy which was a huge step forward in 1776, but doesn’t work today, and electronic democracy where we the people wield the power. I am sure many out there will give Tory arguments against representative democracy-the people are ignorant and disinterested to name two-against electronic democracy. Hopefully they will be as wrong today as they were in 1776. The people, generally, must be willing to take a stand of some sort and that they are not yet willing to do.

i’m glad you liked it too.

We need to go back to the beginning to understand who is at fault. It’s no different than the US stating 60 years from now to the Iraqi people that we have a right to occupy a part of Iraq, it’s ours, and if the Iraqis don’t like it, they will continue to get bombs down their throats.

I recommend this article posted this morning, entitled ‘America’s Hidden Role in Hamas’s Rise to Power’. In my opinion, it is the most truthful exposure of the Bush/Rice/Cheney’s meddling in Palestinian politics.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/?page=1

Excellent !!
More people need to read this,I’ll help spread it around.
Our MSM has a pro Israel bias,the public needs to see both sides of this issue

Bookmark the piece I recommended to Ainya at 69 and read it at your leisure. It’s long but puts a different point of view out there. I’ve hesitated to link to it before because I can’t vouch for the info but since there’s nothing like it making an appearance I figured what the hell.

Ainya, if you’re still here I apologize for jumping on you. I’ve heard the “Hamas fired first” canard so many times in the last weeks it really pushed one of my buttons.

Ah, absolutely no problem. I’m glad for all of the article recommendations and new websites to visit. I’m sure it would be annoying to hear that argument. Likewise I’ve heard the ‘Israel is always at fault for every problem ever’ line a lot lately (my family is catholic and I’m sorry to say some are overtly anti-semetic) so I sorta had the same problem going for me.

Thanks for that article, it was very enlightening and sad.

There is a video of Sarah Palin online which shows the Israeli flag hanging prominently in the window of her office.

can there be any doubt what the American response would be if someone was lobbing rockets at any city in the US and what the American opinion polling would be about the scorched Earth annihilation of every living thing, friend or foe, within a 1000 mile radius of the origin of the rocket launchings…high fives all around baby.

Americans are hypocritical as can be. Granted neither (Israel or would America in the suggested hypothetical case) would be morally right in their asymmetrical destructive responses. My point is the American hypocrisy.

How many Palestinian women and children have you tax dollars killed today?

thanks. it would be nice to have some distilled compilation of various helpful books that have been written on the history.

Check out his sources at the end of the piece.

i remember the bloodlust and insanity here after 911. i’ve protested that too.

The link I gave at # 76 supports your point perfectly.

I was appalled at the attitude. Been on the streets ever since.

Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out.

I had hoped I’d seen the last of that in Viet Nam.

It’s pretty easy to manipulate a fearful populace

Right out of Goebbels’ playbook.

Siun’s got more in a new post

very interesting list of references, wish there were more links though. of the books he recommends i’ve only read chomsky’s fateful triangle. not on his list, but an author on my “some day” reading list (which just seems to keep getting longer) is ilan pape.

thanks.

it’s heartbreaking.

heh. The stack on my coffee table just gets bigger. I like to wait until I can get used copies and even at that I can’t keep up. Maybe if I spent less time on some foul-mouthed fem DFH blog I’d get more reading done. Not.

Thanks, Jane.

This is a replay of why FDR didn’t back civil rights in the 1930s and ’40s — he didn’t want to lose the Dixiecrats, whose backing he needed for the New Deal. (When LBJ started the long-overdue push for civil rights, he knew full well it meant losing the South to the GOP for at least a generation.) Nowadays, the Likud/AIPAC bloc is making the Democrats cower much as the Dixiecrats once did.

Over at the Cornponer we see Victor Davis Hanson lay out the Great Right’s hope:

Instead, Obama must face the hard choices of either alienating traditional liberal pro-Israel supporters, or the powerful anti-Israeli fringe groups that have galvanized much of the Obama candidacy, here and abroad. UNing an asymmetrical war with terrorists with ostensible blame for both sides as equally culpable won’t do either. The Middle East almost by definition requires an American President to be disliked as much as he is deemed necessary.

Powerful and fringy! For an entertaining takedown of Hanson see The War Nerd.

Thanks for the link to the excellent history of the Zionist/Palestinian subject. I’ve saved it for more thorough study.

You’re welcome. I now regret not posting the link earlier on.

Nothing defines US corruption as much as Israel-Palestine.

We have our capitalist criminals, our war profiteers,our influence peddlers…all enabled by a corrupt congress.
But nothing has ever been more deadly to America than the Israeli corruption of the US government and in particular of American principles.

How has this happened?…Money and politics and government by,for and of the “parties”. We choose sides and worship our parties now like an abused child clings to it’s parental absuer.

For the niche votes and campaign contributions of the jewish community, mostly from a select group of right wing wealthy jews, congress will allow Israel to do anything, a genocide, a war crime, probably even finally a ‘transfer’ of the Palestine population.

Think about that. For 30 pieces of silver you can buy a slaughter, a war, anything you want from the US congress and then watch them tell the American public how noble and righteous is their support of whatever murder they sign off on. They will even tell you that you are too stupid to understand and it’s too complicated for your little minds and how dare you believe your own lying eyes…that is if they even bother to answer the public, which they usually don’t.

How do I know the US is wrong on Israel and all of this is due to the undue influence of brain washed jews and their monied right wing zionist leaders? How do I know that Israel is not a necessary ally ,is of no value at all to the US and is in fact a libility and that domestic political advantages in pandering to the pro Israel jews is all the dictates the US support of Israel?

Because I have been thru every single page of every single document of every single Presidential Library since Truman that mentions Israel. it’s all there, in black and white in the private and sometimes public papers and reports and correspondence of all the past presidents. There was not a single one that didn’t talk about the fact that jewish pressure and politics was the sole factor in suppporting Israel,not realism, not principles or US interest.

Eisenhower put it best:

http://www.eisenhowermemorial……s/2063.cfm

“As we began to uncover evidence that something was building up in Israel, we demanded pledges from Ben-Gurion that he would keep the peace.10
We realized that he might think he could take advantage of this country because of the approaching election and because of the importance that so many politicians in the past have attached to our Jewish vote.

I gave strict orders to the State Department that they should inform Israel that we would handle our affairs exactly as though we didn’t have a Jew in America. The welfare and best interests of our own country were to be the sole criteria on which we operated.11

And that is how it should be…but it isn’t. My family has been American for 390 years but I am so absolutely and totally ashamed and disgusted with it and all of us in this country. We are now such cowards and sheep we don’t deserve the country our ancestors fought and died for. Burn congress to the ground and start over or give up the name America.

SD, have you read the book, Churchill’s Promised Land, by Michael Makovsky?

That ‘concern troll’ the other day scoffed at the idea that oil was a factor in dividing up the ME after WWII. I was 14 years old when Israel became a state. Oil was a big deal all through WWII. To see if my memory was correct I Googled: FDR, Churchill, oil, 1948. Got excerpts from this book, stated to be taken mostly from documents. Oil and “the rising threat of Russia” both entered into the talks between Churchill and FDR and FDR and King Ibn Saud back in 1943. I ordered the book.

Today I Googled the author’s name and find that he is a durn neocon! Oh well, I’ll study the parts of the book taken from the documents.

Got an opinion about this book?

Thank you for your comment and the link, Carroll. I turned 18 in 1952 and my first (and second) votes were for Ike. IMHO, we haven’t had a president so dedicated to our country since.

[My paternal g/grandmother was Sarah Carroll (b) 1819 NC.]

S.D.
Well said! Who is being “persecuted” by whom now?

Thanks for your comment.

Gee…we might be distant cousins. My family is NC also and I was named after a Carroll’s marriage into in our family. I have 21 first cousins and 63 second cousins and can’t even keep up with all the third cousins now..so anything is possible.

My g/gmother Sarah Carroll was daughter of Dennis Carroll II and wife Nancy Waggoner; Dennis II was son of Dennis Carroll I and Emmsy Hollifield; Dennis I was son of William Carroll and Sarah Eliza Stone (dau of Isaac Stone).
Dennis I was (b) in SC. Dennis II fought with Francis Marion in Rev War, then moved to NC, then to Illinois where he died. G/gmthr Sarah Carroll married my G/Gfather in Murray Co, GA 1838. Sarah did not go to Illinois.

So then, we disagree.