OK. Netanyahu has just met the first criteria in the determination of insanity: continue doing the same thing and expecting different results. The Israelis have been doing exactly the same thing for 40 years and it has not worked. It has, in fact, made things worse. Displace the PLO and get Hamas. Displace Hamas and you will get Hezbollah or somebody else even worse.

Yeah, there can be no doubt that attacking Hamas in this fashion is a total loser all the way around. A certain number of people will now rally to them, that had stopped supporting them.

I have tried to stay out of criticizing the decisions on either side, but what the frak did the Israeli government think they were going to get from this?

Netanyahu expects the same results. Shrink the land ownership of the Palestinians, take water rights away, and force many of them to become refugees, or dead.

These are the result he wants.

I agree. They seem to only want to fight and I used to believe that they thought it was for their safety. Now I believe they are determined to have Gaza and drive the Palestinians out.

As colin powell said in futility: you break it, you own it.

So, Caroline Kennedy, Joe Lieberman and Benjamin Netanyahu all have the same ‘handler’, John Isay?

How impressive that is.

It’s the damned democracies that are the problem- appoint a dictator like the good ol days. Ya can’t let these people select their own government–what were we thinking?

If this keeps ups George Bush may have found the gift to his “base” they’ve been yearning for……….WWIII

Oh, I agree. Likud’s (and Kadima’s) goal is the total removal of the Palestinians, at least from the West Bank. I think Kadima broke off of Likud over whether to leave them with Gaza, buit is looking increasingly like that option is also out now.

Bring back the Dulles Boys- they knew how to prop up a friendly dictator.

forget which station i was watching last night and who the reporters 7 commentators were. does it matter much anymore? probably msnbc. were saying Hammas is screwed because it has no support among Arab governments and is isolated. seems to me they, in the end, will be strengthened by this. they are gonna get one good ass whooping now, but that’s happened to these people before and they survive and sometimes even thrive. this is just a terrible situation and bush’s response has been stoopid.

If Bibi Netan-Yahoo! wins in Feb it will get much worse. Aren’t there enough yahoos running things?

If they’re going to ethnic cleanse them they should get on with it. This is just stupidity. Ethnic cleansing is evil, but it at least makes some sense. It’ll turn Israel into a pariah nation for a couple generations, destabilize the nearby nations and might even cause a real war with their neighbours.

But it does solve the “Palestinian problem”. And it will confirm that too many become like those who abuse them.

(Note that ethnic cleansing and genocide are two different things.)

Man, you got that right. John Foster was a master at manipulating dictators.

Well ya know- this is the political season in the middle east- there will be a few wars here and there- just to lock in a few votes.

Who will speak for peace?

Well I will- but a hell of a lot of good it will do. Hamas claims that it wants Israel to invade- so that they can try to make em look stoopid like last time they invaded someone.

If a war benefits the political leaders on both sides- there will be war.

i understand wghat you’re saying and sorry for the ignorant question, Ian, but how would that be accomplished (i.e. the ethnic cleansing of Palestine)?

We can. Maybe someone will hear us.

the dead.

Yup. Helluva lotta good it’ll do. One thing about Obama taking over. i have zero expecxtations for anything resembling peace in Israel. He can hardly fuck up. How much worse can it get?

They want them to invade because if they don’t invade they can just keep bombing them and they can’t do much to fight back. If I were Hamas I’d want them to send in ground troops.

Well Israel could nuke someone- say nuke Iran to keep Iran from getting nukes?

By forcing whoever’s left alive to flee to neighboring countries and refugees and, as with past refugees, refuse them right of return. Ever.

edit – countries and as refugees

“Hey- if you guys nuke someone- you are going to have a SERIOUS timeout!”

Ya know, I really think the Israeli govt is in fact that stupid.

maybe a neutron bomb. not atomic.

As Beerfart noted. Just kick them all out of the occupied territories. It would require a fair amount of killing, to spread terror and make them flee. (Which is what Israel did when first creating their country, spread terror to make the Palestinians flee).

I don’t think they should do that, obviously, but it at least would make sense. The current campaign doesn’t even make (evil) sense. It’s counterproductive in every way and I don’t even think it will get the politicians in charge elected, since if you want brutes, the Likud will still be seen as being willing to be more brutal.

ya never know- ya always have the religious fundies “The Lord God would not have given us these bombs if He hadn’t wanted us to NUKE someone with it”!

who was it said “blow them up in the name of the lord”? falwell?

I doubt very seriously Israel has a neutron device. The technology is there but I don’t know if one has ever really been built. The same with a cobalt device.

take it to the bank

Can an entire government fall victim to paranoid schizophrenia?

rhetorical question huh?

looks that way. don’t it?

A shrink’s wet dream.

“(Note that ethinic cleansing and genocide are two differnt things>)”

Per Wikipedia:

“Ethnic cleansing is a euphemisim referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.”

Also, per Wikipedia:

“Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. …the Greek ‘genos’ for race with the Latin ‘-cide’ for killing: Genocide.”

cobalt do the same thing?

I think so….isn’t that the history of 9/11?

the cobalt bomb kills everything forever, the doomsday machine

If getting rid of Hamas is the objective of the Gaza strikes, the plan is backfiring

i seriously doubt it’s backfiring for bibi – the worse the security situation gets, the more israelis will support likud. the best i can tell, the current crisis is almost all about the upcoming elections and israeli politicians are making statements they think will do well with the voters. in the long term (not feb’s elections) i do think the “security” plan of the israeli elite (both kadima and likud) is permanent control most if not all of the west bank – and that means without palestinians.

just like in american politics – politicians will do things that look very stupid for our security. but their primary concern is not security, it’s political power. i think we have to look at israeli politicians in the same way – they are doing things are profoundly against the best interests of israelis, but not their political aspirations.

“deepen and widen the occupation” again. Lots of innocents being killed, all per the news.

that would be bad. i think.

…The technology is there but I don’t know if one has ever really been built…

The United States did. That same Wiki article indicates that France also tested one in the 1980s.

But, before we jump on Obama for every perceived misstep (such as Rick Warren), let’s not forget the mistakes made by John F. Kennedy and to give the new president a chance to learn from his own inevitable failures.

It probably happens to most governments at times. Certainly been the case with our government since 9/11, it’s a constant with the government of Israel, not to suggest they don’t have cause for paranoia.

Setting one off made Slim Pickens career.

I watched an interview with Jeffrey Dahmer once and realized that he wasn’t insane, he was simply evil. Think something similar could be said about the Bush/Cheney junta.

Seems to me the result is the same awfulness.

Well, depends on your point of view. Maybe it doesn’t matter, maybe when you/we/ die it’s all over.

Absolutely. The Israeli attacks help legitimate them as the true & strong center of Palestinian resistance. Even if Israel actually succeeds in destroying Hamas, they will only be replaced by someone even more radical and militant.

Here’s how his war criminal father’s legacy is going. This is a fucking outrage:

http://www.defenselink.mil/rel…..seid=12418

If they’re going to ethnic cleanse them they should get on with it. This is just stupidity. Ethnic cleansing is evil, but it at least makes some sense. It’ll turn Israel into a pariah nation for a couple generations, destabilize the nearby nations and might even cause a real war with their neighbours.

they need an excuse (it doesn’t have to be a real one – just a good enough one), because they don’t generally see themselves as a pariah state. they see themselves as far as i can tell, much like americans do (the whole exceptionalism / ordained by god thing). just like we’re willing to torture, but only if it can be “justified” as the right thing to do (by 911), there needs to be some kind of threat or attack if there is going to be wholesale expulsion (and look for it to include some palestinian israelis too if it comes to that). without that kind of excuse, i expect the slow motion ethnic cleansing to continue, at least in the short run.

Seems about right….watching how “right” and self-righteous they both are. And “we” chose them. Today, once again, I was at a meeting with someone still with a Bush/Cheney sticker. That is beyond, to me, anything close to comprehension.

They may be “different”, but I am opposed to both for the same reason.

I think that is what is holding them back. They are still looking for “good” excuse to cover for it.

Newton’s third law appears to describe more than gravity.

Somebody needs to give this book by Jonathon Stevenson or at least the link to the Book Salon hosted by Suin to Benny the Butcher

They seemed to view not only the destruction of 9/11 but also the robust U.S. response as a catalyst to a self-perpetuating and intensifying jihad that would somehow realize the group’s violent eschatalogical vision of an America destroyed. In that light, any feasible punishment, administered by the United States was not merely futile but, in fact, inspiring to the jihadists

http://firedoglake.com/2008/09…..thinkable/

I do not even want to know….After all, he already has his library.

Yea, I want the USS Wavy Gravy!

here’s netanyahu in 2003:

“If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens,” he said. The Declaration of Independence said Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, but to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority, he said.

Ahhhhgghhhh…..!!!!!

Netanyahu is directly linked to the slaughter of civilian refugees in the Sabra-Shatila Massacre in June of 1982. Yes, America needs more friends like this…

To engage in either ethnic cleansing OR genocide, one must first lay waste one’s own reason and humanity, suggesting to me, at least, that both ‘impulses’ arise from the same root; the conviction that one is superior to or ‘better’ than those whom one wishes to remove from one’s sight and awareness …

Pat Lang provides an excellent commentary on the travesty…

“More difficult than anticipated?”

…”More difficult than many people anticipated.” Say what? More difficult than anticipated by IDF General Staff Intelligence? If that is so, then things have really gone to hell in a hand basket in the Qirya. You used to do better work. Maybe it is the politicians who have imposed this “goat rope” on the IDF. Maybe.[…]

“More difficult than many people anticipated.” Really? Were Feith and Wolfowitz involved in the planning? pl

It really is a damning critique…

cultural icon, wavy gravy.

I’m gonna start a file of all the accidents associated with this monstrosity in the future.

Actually, “ethnic cleansing” is a broader, more generic term which includes genocide as well as forced relocations and other means of eliminating another ethnic group from the disputed territory.

As far as I know, Wavy is holding up pretty well. I was a little surprised to learn he is only 72. Being toothless back in the ’60s made him look a lot older than he actually was.

You might call it the 3rd law of ethnic conflicts. Remember, this is part of what I do for a living.

What are the first two?

It’s so cute that Israel has chosen to ring in the new year with the killing & starving of the Palestinians. Spit.

Israel’s actions in Palestine demonstrate that the best way to put out a fire is to drown it in gasoline.

I think we have to look at israeli politicians in the same way – they are doing things are profoundly against the best interests of israelis, but not their political aspirations.

Well said

Not sure. One is that the dominant group cannot win against an insurgency without resort to scorched earth/genocidal tactics.

I have a lot of sympathy for citizens of Israel who are dismayed and frustrated by the policies of their government, just as we have been with the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq (among other things).

No problem at all…1.5 million people are imprisoned in an area 2X the size of D.C., no medical back-up…no food….no real defense. Where do you go? To the “basement”… Way to go Israel (backed by the USA).. Bomb ‘em…indiscriminately…imagine if that was a US city…

Sick, sick, sick.

Spit.

So then, you are saying that, sometimes, they are, euphemistically or generically, the same thing?

Primarily, they ‘both’ deal with ‘destruction’ and are universally available to all featherless bipeds, whenever the ‘mood’ strikes.

Clearly, this is one broad area of human endeavor in which we have made much ‘progress’. Even as the world ’shrinks’ we are ‘able’ to destroy ever more of our fellow beings.

Perhaps my heart should swell with pride, but it seems to be doing something else, Dr. Dick.

Listening to the NewsHour, the Bush Administration continues to blame the Palestinians for getting themselves killed.

OT: Franked still ahead…not yet final. But I had not heard any update today.

Who is that very young man now speaking out of Crawford?

I am doubtful it will be settled before the new Senate convenes.

Basically, yes. Another (older, more scholarly) term for this process is “ethnic homogenization.” On the up side, you only see this kind of behavior in larger, stratified societies (chiefdoms and states). It seems to be absent in egalitarian societies. On the down side there are very few of the latter still in existence and they are all under at least nominal control of states.

That’s right. Damn those Palestinians for willfully throwing themselves on the Israelis’ swords.

You mean they are actually coming back? Darn it. We were doing fairly well without them.

Amen.

BiBi is another gift that continues to give… some kind of starker from
an elite military unit that functions within the IDF much as the Burmese
Army does for Burma, a source of the next brute to save the homeland.
The miracle of ‘67 set this tendency in concrete, US money that is.. BiBi
will stop at nothing, even portraying Rabin as a Nazi in an election, to
win power. If he does win Israel will pull the whole world into a war
that will change everything, the hard way.

Last I heard they were aiming for the 1st week in Jan for a final count and certification.

Undoubtedly followed with further litigation by Coleman. Hopefully, they’ll allow Franken to be seated during any interim.

Gordon Johndroe a deputy press secretary.

I don’t think anybody’s too worried about litigation from Coleman. He’s lost every motion he’s filed so far. He keeps pullin’ shit out of the Rethug playbook and the court’s not havin’ any of it.

So? Do they let him out very much?

Newshour: “Peace process that the United States ignored for 7 years, 8 years.” Congratulations Condi and W; heckuva job.

The NewsHour had on a spokesman for the Egyptian government who said virtually nothing. Then they have a couple of talking heads discussing Gaza. Both were asked about Hamas’ political motives. But Israel’s poliical motives were left essentially unaddressed. I suppose the NewsHour was trying but it wasn’t all that great a discussion. Only at the end the Arab expert in something of a rush tried to talk about the disproportionality, hundreds of Palestinians dead versus a handful of Israelis, puny inaccurate missiles versus a real army with real weaponry.

The Bush White House is in its 4th quarter down by 50 points. The only ones left are the scrubs.

*gah* I despise the AP…

US, UN, EU and Russia urge immediate Gaza truce

Key world powers trying to promote Mideast peace urged Israel and Hamas on Tuesday to immediately stop fighting in Gaza and southern Israel, the United Nations announced as international efforts to calm the conflict picked up pace.

The Quartet of Mideast peacemakers — the United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia — appealed “for an immediate cease-fire that would be fully respected,” U.N. deputy spokeswoman Marie Okabe said.[…]

Ban had complained to reporters Monday that regional and international partners were not doing enough to help end the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

“They should do more,” he said. “They should use all possible means to end the violence and encourage political dialogue, emphasizing peaceful ways of resolving differences.”

Zalmay Khalilzad, the American ambassador to the U.N., called Ban’s criticism “unfair.” He said the United States had been very active diplomatically. Rice, for one, had been on the phone with the Israelis, the Palestinians, the Europeans, the Russians and others, he said.

“Everyone is of the view that two things are important — an end to violence, a cease-fire, an enduring cease-fire, and two … the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians in Gaza,” Khalilzad told The Associated Press.

Khalilzad stressed that a cease-fire must deal “not only with what we’re seeing now, of course, but also what has caused it, which from our point of view is the sequencing — it is the rockets, it’s the smuggling of arms by Hamas and the other (Palestinian militant) groups.”

Rice has called for a “durable and sustainable” cease-fire, with stronger provisions than the rocky six-month truce between Hamas and Israel that expired earlier this month after Hamas refused to extend it.

Spin, baby, spin…!

I guess that’s it…Ms. Perozide probably didn’t want a Christmas trip to Crawford. Boy, I did not want that kid trying to interpret W….or, a couple of kindergarten kids do the news. (I really should quit.) He made some statement about what “we” had done, and had to correct the statement to say “Israel.” Cool.

If Netan-yaya remains on the political scene after chimpy retires to his pig farm I’ll be amazed.. Since NO ONE with any brain cells supports this fool except, Chimp, Darth and Bolton, the faster they put him out to pasture he better….

puny inaccurate missiles versus a real army with real weaponry.

I wonder how much each of those missiles (with launcher) cost?
Where are they made?
How much profit is there in the sale of each?
Where do the Gazans get the money, or are those weapons donated to “the cause”?

Wouldn’t it be a hoot if Zionist Jews from somewhere outside Israel were supplying the Gazans with weapons to keep the war going?

The problem is that the hardliners think that their only mistake was not pushing even harder. Kinda like the nutjobs who think our only mistake in Vietnam was not using nukes.