Jane and Christy! Yin and yang! PB and J!

I have had my beefs with Joe Klein over the years, but he rates props for going toe-to-toe with these clowns.

“Objectively pro-X” is a bit of Stalinist rhetoric from WWII and before. Everyone who was not doing exactly what the Stalinists wanted was accused of being a Nazi. Orwell used this phrase once, but apologized later, speaking of “the madness of war”. Ever since 9/11 the hawks have been imitating Orwell’s madness and ignoring his apology.

When will a statesman with a public forum call the Israeli Genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza what it really is, a war crime! Jimmy, where are you?

It is my audacious hope that Digg will unveil a new “category” entitled
“Drivel”, as it would both expedite the ‘process’ and more accurately reflect the quality of the bombast hurled these latter days of George the 43rd …

Having lurked and eventually speaking on those threads, it was my clear impression that FDLers (by and large) despair about war of any kind. That we despair most of all about war waged on impoverished civilians. It’s important to remember that we despaired when our own military was unleashed in Iraq, exacerbating an already unstable situation. The anti-Semite meme has grown old and stale. It’s a dodge. It’s how people avoid actually talking about the problems in the Middle East. Anyone who pays one iota of attention to FDL knows that we are trying to figure things out. Would that the name-flingers and heads of state would do the same. And just so you know? I flushed my troll food down the toilet last night.

Hamas was democratically elected. Certain people are claiming this latest round of mass killing is justified to retaliate and stop Hamas once and for all.

So these pro-killing supporters are suggesting it’s okay to attack and remove a democratically elected government? How does this square with all the talk from Shrub and his supporters about spreading “freedom” and “democracy” throughout the world? Complete hypocrisy. They only want “democracy” that’s pre-approved by them, otherwise you better stay in line or get yer ass kicked.

I would argue that Jpod and the Neocons are actually the real Anti Semites in what world does a friend of Israel say nothing, NOTHING about Saudi Arabia getting Nuclear Reactors from Bush?
The MSM is still not covering this story I’m guessing General Electric the owner of NBC has the contract.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1302

Always loved that old Woody Allen joke about “Commentary” and “Dissent” merging into…”Dysentery

I think that says it pretty well.

And yes, JE — it is Stalinist rhetoric.

Pressures on this system will only increase with the worldwide economic downturn, the relative drying up of American aid, and the sheer number and wants of Israel’s subject population.

My bold The friends of Israel really should have watched the economy better under Bush. Obama might not be able to afford to support Israel.

The emergence of J Street has really unhinged the neocons…

Everything that Barbara said!

The Territories = apartheid = American Indian reservations.
Some say there are degrees of difference on the continuum these occupy. Some say not.

But first, an in-depth discussion of Caroline Kennedy’s net worth, to be followed by speculation on whether or not Tripp is Sarah’s first grandchild and ghoulish probing into the possible suicide off the back of a cruise ship, sayeth the SS* Media [*spectacularly shallow].

Give me nuance any day, Jane. And intelligent information and conversation. Keeps me coming back for more. And there’s always HD theatre Sunrise Planet Earth….

I agree with what Barbara said.
And, Jane I believe that you are correct in what you think the readers appreciate.
For myself, I rarely agree hook, line and sinker with the totality of another’s philosophy.
Put another way, It Takes Two To Tango, Or Tangle, but it’s healthier to be open to diverse thoughts and discussions than to swallow someone else’s BS without some thoughtful consideration.

Oh, and the idea that critics “have nothing invested in Israel other than their American liberalism and their Jewish surnames,” sort of ignores our billions of dollars in aid to Israel, along with our anti-Palestinian UN vetos (per Greenwald).

I think I would have been a suicide bomber if I was Palestinian. I would have been dead long ago if I had been forced into the situation in which Palestinians have been living these several generations.

I think the GOP is over using the word AntiSemite it does not bring the new jerk reaction from the Left like it used to it does not stop discussion like it used to.
The Neocons can’t logically excuse attacks on civilians just because Israel is doing it and not Saddam.

Hugh is spot on. Most of us who oppose Israel’s action regarding the Palestinians have not supported Hamas, but rather pointed out that Israeli policies actually strengthen them. These policies are completely self defeating if the goal is peaceful negotiation, though I am increasingly convinced this is not the goal of Kadima, Likud, or other Israeli conservatives.

So when is Israel going to pay us back for all the aid we have given them over the decades?

Now would be a good time, as we’re a bit short on cash… ;)

Things and WOWO, I hope you guys aren’t holding your breath.

Could someone make me smart about the role of the U.N. in the Israel/Palestine situation? If I ever knew, I’ve forgotten.

America has veto power in the UN so the UN does nothing to Israel.

The role of the UN is to follow the US
505 hrs and 24 min

The NeoCons can’t even push around Joe Klein on this issue thats how weak the Israeli case is I wonder what polling on this issue shows?

No but it is a good talking point we can use in the media. If the GOP wants aid to Israel they better vote for Obama’s stimulus package.

Here’s a pretty good wiki entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I…..ed_Nations

Would that be calculated on the basis of Palestinian per dollar?

How else are we to measure Israel’s “success”?

What else have they done with the “aid”, the many billion$, ole Uncle has provided them?

The entire US population could be eating sawdust and grass and the US GOVT. would still find the funding to support Israel. Count on it.

not a big fan of most governments, including my own…. but i’m pro the palestinian people and i’m pro the israeli people.

in the past that’s gotten me called a terrorist and a potential threat to society. being called pro-hamas looks like progress.

the neo-cons would rather we do without here than cut our aid to Israel – it’s the rapture thing, doncha know. :)

Re Hugh’s quote:

At the same time, it is unclear if the Territories ever could have been economically and politically viable on their own but it is evident today that they are basket cases and that their viability is now impossible.

Of the good observations Hugh makes in his quote above, he makes this statement that is essentially a question, but in a larger sense touches on what I think is a major crux in this ‘colonizer’s paradox’. Often ‘winning’ or arriving at the best outcome for all parties involves doing things that are counterintuitive. Greater peace and stability for Isreal would very likely occur with independent economic viability of Palestinian lands. Can they achieve that independently? NO WAY. Can it be promoted by Isreal even with the occasional rockets flying? Yes.

The same counterintuitive stance applies to the violence and is not a novel idea – if you have an overwhelming strength advantage and your very existence is not imminently in doubt, peace is ultimately promoted when you can contain or absorb the aggression directed at you while ceaselessly helping to redirect it towards constructive goals. Absorbing that aggression without reverting to disintegrating retaliation is often very difficult and something of which many people, and leaders, are incapable.

Good point just how has Israel invested our money what success have they achieved? Would it have been cheaper to just buy the Palestinians half of the state of Israel?

Without our aid is Israel viable?

Wisdom.

President-elect Barack Obama has chosen his foreign policy adviser, Susan Rice, to be ambassador to the United Nations, picking an advocate of “dramatic action” against genocide
~ via HuffPost

Might one construe what the Israelis and Palestinians are doing to each other as genocide? (Don’t spit at me, please!)

As an American with nothing to recommend me but a Jewish surname, I’ve been looking for ways to make a financial contribution to more balance in this area. The organization I’m considering is J Street. Anyone know anything about them?

Would you mind if I come stand by you? Making lonely pleas in the darkness is depressing, and boring, and well nigh fruitless.

And Thank You Jane. Some of my favorite “people” are howler monkeys , but those particular ones have some self respect. I’m sure you weren’t referring to them. ;->

It’s an excellent talking point, I just want you to stay breathing. I like you.
(I’m off to work to make some $. Later, folks.)

“Investment” in weapons and war-related technology is not an investment that feeds people, cleans water, builds infrastructure, provides health care, educates children, helps the planet, or anything else that creates a “return” on investment. We are seeing our “investment” at work. The return is in dead bodies, injured and maimed people, destruction of infrastructure, hospitals and schools. Viva the war machine.

Why doesn’t AIPAC fund Israel directly – oh wait Madoff
505 hrs & 12 min

here’s another question – is israel economically viable without the water under palestinian land?

Think they are doing good work. There is also Jewish Voice for Peace.org. I’m impressed with their stand on
the current issue. I am not Jewish but sign many of their petitions and hear from them regularly.

Buy Bombs! Invest in the future!

Members of Congress do, or so I am told …

I’d quickly answer, “YES”. but I’m woefully untutored in the nuances of nonsense in gummint. Still, it doesn’t seem the experts are able to do much better than we might, does it?! The haughtier they be, the more blood they spill. That’s not progress in my book.

Later Demi:)

I agree; both great organizations to contribute to.

are you looking for israeli peace activists? if so i recommend phr-il and jeff halper’s icahd. there are many, many more – those are just two i have some knowledge of.

I don’t know the absolute answer to that question, but your question in and of itself represents the same dynamic I mentioned above, i.e. the threat of withholding potentially ‘vital’ U.S. aid to Israel as a major incentive for them to not use violent retaliation against Palestinians is not in itself a functioning dynamic for this situation.

To the extent US aid does help Israel be stable economically and politically, it ultimately sets the stage to help the Palestinians to a very significant degree.

How much can you drill and extract before salt-water seeps in? I don’t know. I’m just asking.

Why aren’t they charging for the water? Oh wait they are occupied peace would mean they would have to pay.

They’re great. Really brave, and quite visionary. I highly recommend supporting them.

Agreed! We do need a fair just peace in Israel we can’t afford any more wars.

We do need a fair just peace [snip…] we can’t afford any more wars.

Wait. Wait! I’ve seen that before.

Thanks, everyone for the info. Selise, I’m not really looking at Israeli groups right now because there’s already more balance in the debate over there than there is here.

i don’t think it’s genocide.

imo the palestinians are being subjected to a slow motion ethnic cleansing – but i think hugh disagrees with me and so may others – please don’t take my word on it. there are probably as many different views as there are commenters.

for several years i have attempted (not always very successfully) to refrain from using those words – ethnic cleansing. but no more. i just don’t see how it helps not to talk openly and candidly about what’s happening.

I spent the whole night tossing and turning, no sleep. In my dream I was supposed to play a simple solo on my fiddle, but couldn’t find a bow.

I don’t know why I didn’t just pluck and strum.

There’s a lesson in that. Never give up, I suppose.

Thank dog for FDL.

selise – I don’t know all the dimensions of the water supply in the region, but I am aware that this issue alone in many ways explains where and why certain lines are drawn in the sand. This wouldn’t be the first war fought over access to water, and it has to taken seriously.

The world to helping fund enough desalination plants to make a difference for Palestinians might be one of the most significant interventions imaginable at this stage.

’tis the nature of a centuries’ old, insoluble problem.

if we give up, we know the outcome will be horrible.

so we don’t…

All sorts of new Israeli peace activism starting to happen. Was listening to Fresh Air last week and heard about a powerful new “animated documentary” called “Waltz With Bashir” made by a former Israeli soldier who served during the 1982 war, who is now a committed pacifist. His unit basically allowed (but did not take part in) the Sabra and Shatila massacres, and he’d basically blocked it from his memory for years. He made the film in order to help retrieve those memories, interviewing friends and former colleagues.

the issue is the location of the fresh water aquifers.

gotcha.

when i reach a certain stage of dementia over this stuff, i tend to think of caracals, who also live in the wilds in/near the conflict area.

http://www.biosphere-expeditio…..aracal.jpg

understood.

i think the palestinians would have enough water, even for gaza, if they had control over their own aquifers (in the west bank).

gotta run. thanks to jane for not baking down.

Even in Florida, there is a problem of salt-water seeping into the aquifers. I just wondered if anything like that presents a problem in the ME.

Amen. um… “backing?” although baking’s not far off, heh

Israeli water patrol rammed a boat attempting to deliver medical supplies to Gaza…. the interesting thing is that a reporter for CNN was on the medical supply boat and clearly stated that the ramming was intentional which is counter to the Israeli report…..

thanks – backing, not baking.

nice to see the intellectuals at Commentary flinging dung like a bunch of baboons, instead of addressing arguments on their merits.

I also love the “you’re not real jews” arguments levied at Yglesias et al.
Who’s the anti-semite again?

I agree with you, but I think that we struggle with that fine line between ethnic cleansing and genocide mostly because there are casualties. How many casualties does it take for a situation to become genocide? Does the fact that the oppressor/party with far greater power suffers a number of casualties make it ethnic cleansing instead of outright genocide?

I know I believe that the response of the federal government in the wake of Katrina was tantamount to ethnic cleansing with respect to New Orleans; I know it was an economic cleansing with regard to the wider gulf region. No real attempt was made to return minority members to their homes; economically disadvantaged were also disenfranchised, but the toll was greatest among minority members. What differentiates the response of the U.S. government is only a degree of action — a passive-aggressive response, versus a pointed aggressive response. Is this another difference between “mere” ethnic cleansing and genocide?

Am I pro-dissident-party-of-the-week to even entertain the question of the government’s lack of appropriate response to the plight of its citizens?

And it gets tedious to hear people who are an intrinsic part of the problem label us as “pro-Hamas” or pro-any-political-group, as if the average citizen and their children on any street anywhere in the world who may be subjected to unnecessary violence must have no one speak out for them without having a vested political position. Real political freedom here in the U.S. means not having to take political sides except with those who suffer, regardless of politics.

Seconded.

So these pro-killing supporters are suggesting it’s okay to attack and remove a democratically elected government?

Consider America in Iraq:

When we first went in we were overthrowing a dictator. Good or bad?
When we freed Iraqis from the dictator. Good or bad?
When it was discovered there were no nukes. Freeing Iraqis: legal or illegal?
When we stayed as (colonial) occupiers. Good or bad?
When democracy seems to be taking hold. Good or freakish luck despite being the result of war crimes?

Israel fights it’s neighbors. Good or bad?

War is by definition bad for somebody. Whether it is avoidable seems significant at times, but often is mooted by real politik. Still, in all that, we tend to condemn warring based on aggression or some other stupid agenda/purpose like Dubya’s “God told me to free the world.” despite it being criminal (anti-Constitutional and anti-U.N.).

It’s really simple. Rockets hit deeper and deeper into Israel. They must stop the attacks. It’s their right! It’s their duty.

Where it gets complicated is when the people involved don’t respond simply, but based on their age-old hatreds and feelings about the land and honor and the way their religious views are tied into American actions around the world, with Israel and the whole Western Civilization Colonialists vs. the timid shy helpless little rock-throwing Palestinians.

Someday they’ll get tired of their children dying and then peace will be a comfort. Of course, this is nothing new. Golda Meir said as much several decades ago.

I think I would have been a suicide bomber if I was Palestinian. I would have been dead long ago if I had been forced into the situation in which Palestinians have been living these several generations.

Of course, that path is insane.

Keep doing what doesn’t work and yet expecting a different result.

It’s as insane as Israel NOT responding to rocket attacks.

These policies are completely self defeating if the goal is peaceful negotiation, though I am increasingly convinced this is not the goal of Kadima, Likud, or other Israeli conservatives.

Clinton had a paper agreed to and Arafat couldn’t get it done. That put an end to ‘negotiations’.

It isn’t about politics within Israel except that there is a militant minority who want to take all the West Bank. They must be dealt with as the Palestinian militants. I say clear a free fire zone and let all the militants enter into a death fight for that land! Put the radical militants on the front lines with adequate weapons, with skin in the ‘game’ and see how they feel about it then.