I came back from an eight day holiday trip to Jamaica to find that something quite remarkable was happening in the blogosphere.
For years, the subject of Israel has been the biggest third rail subject we have to deal with. Any time we wanted to mention Israel in a post we had to alert the mods to strap on their hazmat suits, because the comments section would invariably turn into a shitstorm. Any criticism of Israel was greeted with catcalls of anti-semitism, which would inevitably draw out the anti-semites. The next thing you know, the mods are tearing their hair out and Bill O'Reilly is calling you a Nazi.
It was extraordinarily difficult to provide a place for free speech and open discussion and yet police racism and hate speech. Most people concluded (quite rightly) that the conditions were not right for a mature discussion of the subject, and just avoided it.
But as the current crisis unfolds in Gaza, all that seems to have reversed itself. Although a lot of bloggers are still obviously gun shy, it looks like readers are ready to take it on, and they are doing so without letting the conversation devolve into an endless flame war. I read closely the comments section of Gregg Mitchell's top-rated Kos diary on the diversity of opinion about the Gaza situation within the Israeli press, which commenters reflected in their own disparate opinions. But despite the attempts of a couple of trolls to derail the conversation, it remained remarkably civil.
A series of diaries on the subject of Gaza subsequently made their way onto the recommended list, some critical of Israel's actions and others in support. But one thing is becoming clear -- the third rail is cooling off.
Opinions will differ as to why this is happening, and Obama's November victory certainly sets the stage -- people really are eager for change. But I would attribute this turn of events to three things:
1) J-Street: Until the emergence of this remarkable group, hawkish right-wing idealogues had successfully managed to equate support for Israel with support for an aggressive, bellicose foreign policy. When J-Street came along, they courageously led the way in articulating a policy of supporting Israel through supporting peace. They did so in the face of incredible institutional pressure, but in a very short time they managed to enlarge the conversation and make it possible to discuss Israel outside of an extreme right-wing frame. The statement of Jeremy Ben-Ami on the airstrikes in Gaza demonstrates their exemplary leadership and reflects a sober, reasonable assessment of the situation that I think people were really hungry for.
2) Joe Klein: The importance of what Joe Klein did in the face of intimidation tactics from the extreme right cannot be overstated. When Jennifer Rubin of Commentary Magazine called Klein an "anti-semite" for criticizing Israel and the ADL piled on and condemned him, it was pretty much just standard operating procedure for them -- tactics that had silenced many critics before. But Klein was totally (and appropriately) enraged by this kind of thuggery, and fought back publicly on the pages of Time.
As Glenn Greenwald wrote:
Klein really became the first person in a venue as establishment-serving as Time Magazine to explicitly criticize neocons for their Israel-centric fixations and, much more importantly, for their disgusting exploitation of "anti-semitism" accusations against anyone and everyone who disagrees with their views on the Israel-Palestinian conflict and, more generally, on the Middle East.
Having someone like Klein, in a place like Time, make those arguments without punishment is highly threatening to the neocons' ability to continue to intimidate people away from expressing divergent views by wielding "anti-semitism" accusations. And they know that it is threatening, which is why, once Klein began doing it, they engaged in a full-court swarm to attack and demonize Klein and even insinuate that he should and would be fired for his transgressions on the topic of neocons and Israel.
I got a front row seat to the battle at a BBC dinner in New York with Commentary Magazine's John Podhoretz and Klein:
No sooner had the dinner begun than the two were screaming at each other over the table. "You're a shithead! You're a shithead!" screamed The Pod. "Why don't you just call me an antisemite? That's what you do!" retorted Klein.
Klein never backed down, and he used his perch at Time to expose the intimidation racket they were running, marginalizing them as right-wing extremists. I applauded him at the time, and continue to think that he made a tremendous contribution to the evolution of the conversation around Israel.
3) Leadership: What Klein did to Commentary Magazine and the ADL, Glenn Greenwald has done to Marty Peretz and the neocon propaganda organ he runs at The New Republic. Likewise Ezra Klein, Matt Yglesias, Spencer Ackerman, Paul Rosenberg, Siun, Ian Welsh and Stirling Newberry have done a tremendous job of stepping outside the "usual suspect" sources and taking advantage of a new freedom to explore the subject of Israel from a multiplicity of viewpoints with intelligence and integrity.
It really appears to be a remarkable evolution in the discourse surrounding the subject of Israel, one that is long overdue. It will hopefully provide more space for the incoming administration to maneuver within, outside of the belligerent chest-beatings of the Bush Administration in their final days.
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Hey Bush, how’s that whole “peace treaty by end of term” thing coming along then?
We can NOT get Obama in there soon enough.
the best argument seems to be that there is much more diversity of view in the public discourse tolerated in Israel than here.
I got an e-mail from Jewish Voice for Peace yesterday. They are urging people to contact the US House, the State Department and to join the street actions around the country.
Doing good work.
Thanks, Jane
The Map of the area from 1946 to the present Siun posted is the best visual describing a complex issue I’ve seen in years. That picture is better than 10,000 words.
After looking at the map there is not much room for discussion.
Good on Klein. Good to hear that debate is expanding.
link? I haven’t been able to follow the posts lately.
Jane !
Correction: Ian Welsh, not Welch … had to do it for my fellow Canuck … *g*
thank goodness there were people who - like glenn - who disagreed that it was right to avoid the subject. how can we ever hope to have the conditions change unless we are willing to try to help make them change?
Not much room for discussion.
indeed.
Thanks, fixed
Welcome back from your vacation in Jamaica Jane.
‘Intimidation tactics’ is the default stance when basic reason is severely lacking. You might have to repeat that 60 times to begin a sound debate, but that should never be a deterrent from establishing the frame.
Establishing the frame is the quantum leap. Maintaining it is a longer term challenge, but far easier overall.
Thanks, it was beautiful. We had a great time.
I agree a change is taking place…..in the public. Mainly thanks to access on the net to ‘factual’ news and blogs like this and others.
But congress isn’t changing or the stranglehold the zionist neo orgs have on them regarding our Israeli policy.
Therein lies the problem. Listen to Peliso and tell me she represents America or American opinions. She doesn’t. She works for the tons of right wing Jewish political contributions that go into Dem party specifically to dictate US aid to and policy on Israel.
Here is the deliciously tragic irony in this…
The Israeli influences in the US have so burrowed into and twisted America policy and government on Israel that America is now too morally corrupted to help Israel by brokering a “Just” peace deal for Palestine and without that Just deal there will be no peace and Israel will not survive.
A true Shakespearian ending to the Israeli play.
Joe Klein deserves kudos for his principled stand. There are similarities to Edward R. Murrow when he took on the McCarthey shame.
This one.
Also not changing: the idea that Hamas is the aggressor, and Israel is just reacting to their attacks. I keep seeing that one in the news, and those @#$%^&*(s in the WH aren’t saying anything otherwise.
It’s a good thing we have FDL and Juan Cole to keep us straight.
correction McCarthy
Thanks for this, Jane. I’ve lurked through most of the Israel discussions over time because: (a) I’m not as smart about this as many are (but I’m learning!); and (b) because, as you noted, the temperature rises, tempers flare and accusations are flung hard and far enough to win gold medals. It seems the listening lamp has been lighted. There is a lot to be said for civil discourse, which transcends the silly liberal elite label.
I think J Street has done a great job of demonstrating that one can be a Zionist with being a neocon. When I made a comment on Spencer’s blog comparing the proportionality of various actions, and saying that, while possibly justified, the action might not be wise, it spawned significant discussion. Most of it was rational, but there are still a few nut jobs on both sides stalking the blogs.
Was curious about the 501(c)4 status of J Street. Wiki says this:
This is huge and absolutely needs to be DUGGG!!!!!!
great post, Jane. i mean greater than most!
I have been itching for this conversation forever by now and it’s high time it happened and shut the antisemitism garbage down forever!
I can quite honestly say I never met a Jewish person I haven’t just adored and appreciated, and I cannot STAND the Israeli government.
Let’s have this conversation and openly, and loudly and NOW!
DUGG!!!
i’m no. 3.
we need about 300 more PLEASE!
Bush could send Ace Sec’y of State Condi back to the Middle East one more time…if he still cared a little.
DIGG
yes give her another opportunity to wave at everyone
barbaradiggs!!
Jane, thanks for connecting the dots. I had noticed the vast improvement in blogosphere discourse around this crisis (compared say to that about the 2006 invasion of Lebanon) but had failed to attribute it to those specifics.
Did you mean your link to take us to the WaPo piece about the Russian predicting civil war and breakup of the U.S.?
Thanks for that. I had no idea either.
Welcome back from vacation, Jane, and thank you for focusing on this change. The idea that the incoming Administration will have a larger space to operate in on Israel is heartening. As with everything else, peace has lost eight years, not easily regained.
Nine diggs
Can’t say for sure why it’s happening, but those factors do seem to be influential.
It’s a welcome relief from the old SOP, that’s fer sure.
she could wear another pair of her new shoes and flash that toothy grin. perfect for the job.
i wonder if fdl has considered the possible backlash from discussions such as this?
It was a nice set of maps but 1948 was not quite the beginning of the story. The first picture showed a Palestine without the context that this was the the remainder of British Mandate Palestine. Britain and France had divided up the Middle East after WWI, (putting many of today’s borders into place) after conquering it from the Ottomans who ruled since 1517. I think I got this from BBC, but wiki etc all have the same info
Palestine - comprising what are now Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip
and Jordan - was among several former Ottoman Arab territories placed
under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. The
mandate lasted from 1920 to 1948. In 1923 Britain granted limited
autonomy to Transjordan, now known as Jordan.
The map from 1948 to 1967 did not indicate that the West Bank and Gaza were held by Egypt and Jordan. No Palestinian State was built on the pre-67 area when it was controlled by those ostensibly friendly governments. (Sadat let go of Egypts claims to Gaza in 1977 when
Egypt got back the Sinai, and Jordan let go of its claims to the West
Bank in 1988).
Ultimately there WAS a peace process during the 1990’s. At the time, things really did look pretty promising.
i think there may be an additional reason why it’s become more acceptable to be critical of israel - it’s not a good one and i hope i’m wrong. but on the off chance there’s something to this i think it’s worth saying and considering…
i think it’s possible that one of the reasons (although not necessarily a major reason) criticism of israel is becoming more acceptable is because anti-semitism is becoming more acceptable.
before anyone jumps all over me, i don’t think i’ve ever been much of an israeli apologist, at least not this decade and i don’t, in any way, equate criticism of israel with anti-semitism. i’m very critical of israel’s gov actions and i’m not trying to say that my criticism or anyone else’s is motivated by anti-semitism. my comments are about the current zeitgeist, and more importantly where it may be going.
we’re in the midst of a financial & economic crisis. it’s not unusual for people in such situations to look around for scapegoats. if oil was still close to $150/barrel i’d expect the most likely target would continue to be arabs. but the price of oil has collapsed and we’re rightly looking at government, especially the regulators, and wall street as the major culprits for not just the financial crisis but also for what wall street calls a bailout and we call theft. well, bankers don’t have a reputation for being arab, if you get where i’m going with…
on top of that, we’ve had 7 years of anti-muslim and anti-arab rhetoric used in part to justify 2 wars - both of which we’re not winning. and americans hate not winning. unfortunately neocons, rightly or wrongly, have become associated with these wars even though both the rhetoric and warmongering were by no means limited to them. it’s doesn’t help that a high percentage of the neocons are jewish.
what i’m trying to convey is that i think americans are pissed off (i know i am), that may lead to scape goating and jews may look like a convenient target to people who aren’t thinking. bigotry doesn’t need a reason, and all the anti-arab bigotry we’ve been seeing these last years could easily switch to anti-jew bigotry. it’s not the target that matters, it’s having a target (oceania has always been at war with eastasia).
anyway, i was prompted by hugh’s excellent diary to try to think through what our current economic crisis might mean for the israeli / palestinian conflict and i ended up thinking about bigotry and scapegoating.
maybe this is all wrong. i hope it is. but it can’t hurt to be extra careful about how we talk about these issues (not that we weren’t trying to already)…. to differentiate between individuals and groups and to avoid the use of eliminationist language.
yes, the region has gone through many hands. until OIL no one cared much. most folks do not know the history and just reflect the talking points of those with access to the media.
not for palestinians in the west bank who saw the number of settlers double.
no!
lol
sorrrrry
meant to link here
DIGG JANES ARTICLE HERE!
Thanks for posting this, Jane.
I’m so enraged and depressed at what’s going on in Gaza (with US dollars weapons and support) and the lack of US media coverage about what Israeli injustices and abuses that have lead up to this, especially over the last few months, I’m nearly without words.
In fact, I rarely say anything about Israel for fear of being called an anti semite. I love the Jewish people in the US, throughout the world and especially in Israel. It’s the Israeli government and their institutionalized opression, aggression and violece toward the Palestinian people that I despise. So go ahead and shout anti semite, I know someone will. But when the downtrodden and oppressed strike out, don’t look to me for sympathy and support.
I have heard more vigorous debates about Israel and Palestine in Israel. Here we have had to put up with intimidation. I agree Klein and Greenwald have taken a stick to the usual suspects and there has been a retreat. At Swampland (Time) a discussion is in progress and thus far no trolls have appeared. Anyway trolls are administered a swift kick in the butt. Until we have an open discussion about the depredations of the Israel settlers and the cowardly behaviour of successive Israeli govts there will be no end to the troubles.
i view anti-semitism as being against jews for being jews. this is not what is happening, imo. all peoples should have a chance to live in peace not just jews.
Israel’s Hasbara program is a well-oil machine, designed specifically as a force multiplier for deflecting all criticism of Israel, and specifically, their “Megaphone” software (developed by Mossad) is designed to allow individual bloggers to inundate blog administrators with what appears to be a barrage of criticism from multiple concern trolls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....megaphone/
what form do the “debates” take in israel? is there a viable moderate faction?
I too hope you are wrong and I think you are. While there are anti-semites out there I believe they are marginalized. Many of us are trying to distinguish by right and wrong. I think that the argument is addressing the actions of Israel the country, Palestine, and Hamas.
Twain left a comment @ 3 that demonstrates this.
The discourse about Israel in the blogosphere has been frank and spirited for years and Joe Klein wouldn’t have shown this kind of “leadership” were he not, to his credit, highly attuned to the criticisms from that same blogosphere.
That said, the discourse of our political leaders — in particular, Obama — has worsened greatly over this past eight years, to the point where we have Obama calling for an undivided Jerusalem. You can bet you won’t see a peep in defense of massacred Arabs from them. Indeed, you’ll see the usual craven, heartless piling on about how they invited this.
The Anti-Americanism that has grown around the world is pretty much the same with Israel…… it is the separation of the the country and what the current administration does and their policies. I do not like what the government of Israel is doing and their policies but the Jewish people are not the issue.
It is about time that people can separate these two ….. just like they can with America someday….
FDL is a backlash magnet. Why? Because it encourages people to ferret out the truth, speak it, debate it, even when it’s a hot topic. Generally it’s civil discourse (yes, there I go using that phrase again). And when it’s not, people have even been known to later say variations of, “I was wrong,” “I have been thinking about what you said…” etc. Imagine that! I think Jane’s post is gutsy, but it’s also part of cutting edge (I am SO sick of that hackneyed term) about Middle East conversations. Even in this thread, I see people saying things like, “I hesitate to say this…” or “lest I be perceived to be…” I am loving me some honest conversation about a tough reality. Hooray for us! Hooray for Jane.
Exactly.
If American network TV carried the same range of opinions as does a typical issue of Ha’aretz, we wouldn’t need this conversation — and there’d be fewer people propping up Israel’s right wing with their dollars and their newspapers.
Dear dear Jane!
Thank you yet again for your openness, your courage, and your clear voice.
One reason I wrote my numbskull apology of a diary yesterday (Plea for Peace, http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2691) was because of my inner agony, as I watch foreign relations melt across the globe and know full well we, the USA, the bush/cheney administration’s version of business as usual is largely responsible for encouraging others all over the world to unleash their pent-up viciousness and retaliation for slights against themselves and their people.
“If the USA can do it,” all bets are off and everyone should feel free to act out their most vile and hideous desires. We, all of us, are partly to blame, because we could not stop the wretched, despicable meanness cheney and bush felt free to unleash upon others, simply because they could. We weren’t a perfect country before, but we never have sunk as low, as a nation, as we have during this wretched administration.
Cheney grimaces that lop-sided faux grin of his and professes not to have a clue why he should be unpopular. Well, fella, THIS is why. YOU lit the fuse, and odds are that NO one can easily put out the fire. Nice job mr. c. Now go hide your head in abject shame. You will NEVER live this down. You, sir, are a disgraceful human being. You should be incarcerated for the rest of your days.
no snark. just one version of honest truth.
my comment was in no way directed at the conversation here - it was about the wider culture that we are part of.
J Street’s already had a big impact. They’re not afraid of being called names.
A few things I have to disagree with in Jane’s post…
“It was extraordinarily difficult to provide a place for free speech and open discussion and yet police racism and hate speech. Most people concluded (quite rightly) that the conditions were not right for a mature discussion of the subject, and just avoided it.”
I think whether it is difficult or not depends on what your principles are,if you have any, and what you willing to do to live up to them. Every day that people concluded the conditions were not ripe for mature discussion of Israel some innocent person or child died in Palestine with the help of America. There is never not a right time to tell the truth. Silence is consent.
I would also disagree that J-Street or Klein set the stage for the discussion of Isr-Pal-USA. This has been under discussion for along time among the public…although those of us who pointed out the hideous aberrations in US policy toward Israel and the resulting Israeli actions were assaulted and slurred as anti-semites.
The people who made this discussion possible and walked into the flames and took the slurs and risked their reputations and careers and sometimes their livelihoods were those like Bamford, Hollings, Carter, W&M, Juan Cole, Desmond Tutu, Congressman Moran, Norman Finklestein and a host of out there early others who were vilified for pointing out the truth of the US-Isr entanglement in Palestine.
Whether is was harder for them or for Jews within the Jewish establishment like Klein to speak out I don’t know..it’s probably a draw. But I don’t see Klein getting fired from Time the way Juan Cole’s and Norman Finkelstein’s academic career paths were basically ruined or President Carter was attacked by the jewish orgs and in fact denounced by the dem congress leadership and marginlized by the Obama team…it was appalling.
Speaking for my self and probably many others since I am not unique, the vicious responses to what was strictly political criticism of Israel by non Jews and the transparent attempt to silence everyone by making it about the Jews and anti semitism by the pro Israeli activist smelled to high heavens and kept me pursing this issue.
Frankly after 7 years of research into the Israeli conflict and problem, separating fact from fiction,reality from propaganda, myth from real history, listening to black being called white, listening to the eternal never ending peace talks for more stalls bizness I think it is time to move beyond more talky talky stally stally.
It is obvious that working from the top down by appealing to congress to reform themselves and act in a fair and just manner in our affairs and according to our original American principles is futile and we must work from the bottom up by relentlessly rousing our own local communities to action.
Sticks and stones…
One thing to remember is that the Palestinians are Semites as well.
From Wiki. Emphasis mine.
When called anti-Semitic I reply that the accusation is not only illogical in the context used but also dishonest because it is used to halt discussion or criticism of Israeli policy.
Back to the quarry.
I think the backlash if discussion, and more importantly action, isn’t taken on this issue is the danger.
i think that might be easier for someone to say who doesn’t own the site. there is always a choice. the short term right way or long term survival. a lot depends on your enemy. i’m just sayin.
If I saw that the tone of the discussion had an anti-semitic quality I’d be the first to say so, but I really don’t see it.
Just the opposite, in fact — the typical anti-semites are staying out of the conversation.
i don’t think the conversation is anti-semitic either. but i do think our culture is slightly more tolerant of anti-semitism now compared to a few years ago, and i think there are risks we (americans - this isn’t about the blogosphere) may be headed towards more of it. if that is so (and i haven’t completely convinced myself of it) then that change might have a second order affect on discussions of israel in the blogosphere and elsewhere. it shouldn’t… but anti-semitism has been conflated with criticism of israel and that hasn’t completely gone away.
Most of the people calling in on C-Span’s Washington Journal on Sunday morning were critical of Israel, at least during the half hour I was listening. Also, at least two callers mentioned the biased coverage of the conflict within the U.S. media.
My observations were made strictly about the conversation in the blogosphere, so an attempt to make it about something else is a straw man.
Further, bringing up subjects that draw nothing but trolls is really hard on the people whose job it is to keep this (and other) sites running smoothly so conversations can exist at all, without running afoul of those who would like to shut us down. If we had endless resources things might be otherwise, but I’m afraid your check for a million dollars must have gotten lost in the mail.
It’s great that people are willing to admonish us for not being as brave as they are, but a quick look back at the history of our coverage (particularly Siun’s over the years) would be a good indication that despite the hazards involved, we have really extended ourselves here on the topic for a long time.
The truth of the matter is that that is a risk ‘groups’ take when they ‘group’ together for a political or any other purpose.
The groups like the Aryan Nation racist and anti semites are probably about equal to the anti gentile and anti Arab/Muslim Israeli/Zioinst groups.
I see the same level of viciousness in both.
I woke up today to find three active wars going on in the middle east. Little to nothing about it on the news. The Palestinian protest in Orange County was the main thing on the local news, I guess that is something. The Israeli counter protest was smaller and kept on the other side of the street.
and when others weren’t. i should have thanked you as well as glenn.
(i think i must have misunderstood you when when you wrote that the conversation was “quite rightly” avoided? - if so, my apologies)
I’m really grateful for the work of the influential bloggers (within and outside of FDL) Jane cites, and I’ve so appreciated Siun’s steady, unwavering focus on Palestine here at FDL.
Perhaps because I’ve had a lot of contact with promising activists as they’ve attended Ruckus Society training camps over the past decade, I’ve seen a fourth group contribute to cooling the third rail here in US progressive an public life: American Jewish activists working for Palestinian human rights.
When a Jewish girl from Skokie who grew up hearing of those her mom and dad lost to Hitler’s death camps stands up for human rights in Palestine and freedom for Palestinians, the “anti-semite” slur doesn’t stick: even in LA’s Fairfax district. That woman’s bravery - and that of thousands like her - is a powerful grassroots force which I believe has also helped defuse the third rail.
Being progressives - and really clever - local groups like “Get Brooklyn Out Of Palestine” have also made deft use of humor to reframe common assumptions about the “settlers” who’ve used “anti-semitism” to shield their human rights crimes from criticism.
I’m glad to see the change afoot in “meat world”, and delighted to see FDL and other forces draining the third rail’s power. When the damn thing’s off for good, I’d love to see it beaten into plowshares.
Jane:
Don’t forget that Eric Alterman has regularly been criticizing Marty Peretz and J-Pod as the right-wing hacks they are. And Alterman, like Klein, is clearly of the Jewish persuasion.
The Israeli goverment represents a majority of the Jews in Israel. If the majority was not pleased with the aggressive apartied policies they would be voted out of control and the librals would take over and accommodation would be sought with their neighbors.
Instead you have the aggressive and hateful ones running the government and doing the settlements and the killing. The jews who believe in this approach should rot in hell if there is one.
This is a very disproportionate use of force. I am not condoning the strikes by Islamists against innocent Israelies - that’s not acceptable to me MLK or Ghandi. But these are not an excuse for genocide.
Is there a country in the world which would tolerate cross-border rocket attacks? Every time I read about how evil the Israeli government is, I wonder why the people who are so critical of Israel’s actions cannot provide better solutions. I guess as an Israeli I see this from a different perspective. The Palestinians are outmanned and outgunned. They are dealing with an enemy in Israel which has the power to destroy Gaza utterly, but chooses not to do so. We cannot pretend that if Hamas were in Israel’s position, Hamas wouldn’t have already flattened every major Israeli population center.
You don’t get to dump mortars on your neighbor’s head and then complain when he responds. The Palestinians could have stopped all of this years ago, but they are simply unable to stop trying to take revenge for things that happened yesterday, or a year ago, or fifty years ago. If you think Hamas will ever be satisfied with any sort of peace that doesn’t also include the dismemberment of Israel, I don’t know what you’ve been looking at.
As for anti-semitism, first of all you must understand that when you insist that Israel must refrain from making any response to mortar fire from Hamas, you are, even in your moderate position, taking sides with others who go further to conclude that Israel does not have the right to exist, and with people who do not care about the difference between the Israeli government and world Jewry. It’s not for nothing that the Chabad House in Mumbai was attacked, or the JCC in Buenos Aires. I’m not going to pretend that criticism of Israeli government is the same as being an anti-semite, but from experience many who criticize Israel turn out to believe that Jews control the entire world. It’s an unreasonable response to an unreasonable situation.
welcome back Jane!
Perhaps we should just count the dead, show a comparison, and not tell anyone who they are first. But that would be so like our own government not talking about the nearly million dead in Iraq. The people in Israel have to deal with people much of the world considers batshit crazy in general. The people of the Muslim world have to deal with people much of the world considers batshit crazy in general.
It is time for a fairness doctrine when it comes to humanity. Might work if 100% of us weren’t batshit crazy.
yep, you’re right Steve. Alterman has been doing great work.
Happy new year to you & Pam.
Nope, it was a poorly constructed sentence — they gauged “quite rightly” that conditions were not right for a mature discussion of the subject. They weren’t, it was a perpetual pie fight.
People made different decisions in the face of that, but everyone who waded into the comments sections of such posts quickly knew it was true. I would just shake my head, think “here we go again,” and thank our fabulous mods for being willing to face the scorching.
People may not remember we had Jeff Halper here –
http://firedoglake.com/2008/06.....palestine/
One of our best book salons.
I am not admonishing you or your site, I think you do an excellent job in general and have on this issue.
I am pointing out that this debate has been raging for a long long time among the public before most blog owners were willing to front it. Among the very people who support and read blogs like this one, as you see from the ‘bravos’ from commenters on your post. And a lot of them suffered the slings and arrows before J-Street or Klein took it up. So I simply think you are inaccurate about the real origins of the discussion taking place in the blogsphere today. Now, if I misread you and you are saying that Klein and J-street made it possible for blog ‘owners’, as opposed to the general commenters on blogs to take it up, that probably is true in that they don’t have to be as afraid of being attacked as anti semitic and having their sites ruined for broaching the subject.
If you need donation money here’s a tip. As someone who supports and raises money for two family related charities I have found it much easier to get if I don’t get pissy and take personally their disagreements or opinions.
thanks. lots of pie fights i know. hope i didn’t make things worse, but it did seem to me (and still does) an important conversation and one worth having, even though it was difficult.
p.s. i’m a big big fan of halper, and only missed that book salon because i was in NY for eCAHN’s fld bbq.
Yep. He rocked, as did the book salon. I shoulda cited that salon in my comment: my bad.
1) Great post, and thank you for doing so. It awakens many.
2) I concur, I don’t see an outbreak of anti-semitism from anywhere but the usual suspects.
I really think the left wing foul mouthed vituperative yadda yadda, which you’ve help to build and grow stronger and larger, has greatly aided in the marginalization of all things right wing rhetorical that have dominated the public awareness for 40 years or more.
And yes, I think among the masses there are people who have been swayed by that right wing rhetoric avalance that was given free rein to dominate the dialogue.
And I think the advent of the internet, and the blogosphere, has really hit many of them hard to reshape their awareness of reality as it really is.
Along with the realities of two failed wars, the corruption of the people they believed in and elected, the failed policies and practices of those who preached to them all things right and rightous from the right wing narrow view I believe there HAS been a huge shift in public awareness and a heightened, call it what you will, consciousness or REEDUCATION PROCESS.
And all that shifting and new awareness across the spectrum of belief systems has helped to marginalize many extremist right wing people and their talking points.
There’s lots to worry about, including our system of existence which is dominated by a few over the many, that needs changing.
But damn, I’m not sure I’ve ever in my life seen this broad and wide of a sweep of ‘thought change’ as we’ve experienced since the blogosphere took hold and grew.
While the 60’s and early 70’s were formidable times of dissent and change, they seemed oriented to a more liberal and well educated elite.
This ‘new enlightment’ seems to be of a more broad and sweeping one. And your post harkens to that.
Given the crap we are under, I’ll take the sunshine any time I can find it.
Thank you, Mz. Hamsher, thank you Pups. Let’s dialogue the HELL outta this one, and every other one.
Cuz it’s LONG past time for the change that we took hope in long ago from JFK, MLK, RFK, Rosa Parks and every other american who ever stood and risked themselves for a basic right.
Huzzah! Slainthe Mtah! Kaplah!
Robert Fisk:
(italics mine - kjm)
In business I was taught a quality management tool that’s not out of line to extend your queries. It’s called “Five Whys” — a problem statement is made in the form of a question, constituting the first Why in the series, with each subsequent Why asked in response to the answer that follows the previous question. Whys are continued until a root cause is uncovered; the root cause is the issue that should be addressed to resolve all previous problems.
We haven’t gotten to the 2nd or 3rd Why when we have discussions about Israel/Palestine, as Jane pointed out in her blog post here, due to derailment stemming from hostility. Perhaps you are asking the first or second Why, but it’s not the end of the exercise, only a beginning, and perhaps it’s a first or second question only because it’s the one you’ve chosen to ask from your perspective. But let’s assume it’s the first Why for the time being.
More or less you’ve asked:
What is the answer to this first Why? Perhaps Palestinians have responded to the embargo of food and supplies to their people, as well as other economic suppression by Israel.
If we agreed that was the answer to the first Why in the series, we might take that answer and turn it into the next Why:
Help me here with an answer. It’s not quite as obvious for me. And what’s the next Why in the series; will we be able to get to it rationally and reasonably?
They’re getting close to overdue
If you read Leviticus, you find that you’re supposed to let your slaves become free members of your society after 49 years. Start the clock in 1948, and that would be 1997, and they’re already overdue for many Palestinians. Start it at the latest date possible, in 1967, and you get 2016. So they have until Obama leaves office to get a one-state solution. After that, they’re in violation of even the Law, much less international law.
Thanks Jane for blogging on this. The internet has altered the media environment in America on this question. I think it’s not quite fair to attribute the shift to American actions only. The fact that we can access media in other parts of the world means that we can see our own media and political class on the Palestinian question in a different light. Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t also note that it is the Palestinian people themselves and their long, much too long, struggle for justice that has to be factored in to shifts in what can be acceptably said outloud in America. I’m not talking about the political leadership of Hamas or Fatah. I’m talking about the fact that the Palestinian people were supposed to disappear off the face of the map to make way for another people who needed a homeland. But they did not. And that in and of itself is a major achievement. It takes discipline, creativity, entrepreneurship, to live under a forty year foreign rule all while the occupying power is practicing defacto annexation. The Palestinians have withstood more brutality in which Western Christian Europe sought to atone for its history of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust by making another people bear the price.
The problem today is not Hamas or Israel but the U.S. which has monopolized peace making while being a co-belligerent to the conflict. The basic problem today is American power which seems incapable of exerting any political will over Israel, even though what it does is in our name.
Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself, but so do the Palestinians. What is right for one is right for the other. What is no longer tenable is the continual double standard of the Western powers who created this conflict (Britain after WWI) and maintain it (the U.S. after 1967). All this does is protect the Israeli public from recognizing that there are limited options FOR ISRAEL here. Israel can go home to Israel proper, remove its colonies and go back to its 1967 borders, share Jerusalem, come to an agreement regarding justice for the Palestinian refugees who were dispossessed of their homeland in 1948, OR Israel will have to absorb the Palestinians over which it rules today into the state of Israel. What will not work is the status quo.
For those who ask what should Israel do, when rockets are fired onto its civilian areas, I would say, Israel does have the right to defend itself, but it bombing universities and civilian infrastructure is not self-defense. What is going on today is an effort by the Israeli army to regain its “self esteem” that it lost during the invasion of Lebanon in 2006.
To point this out is not anti-Semitic. Outgoing Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, himself said this in an interview published in the NY Review of Books. He noted that for years he denied to himself that Israel had to withdraw from the Occupied Territories. He said, “Anyone who wants to control Arab East Jerusalem will have to absorb 800,000 Palestinians into the state of Israel.” This is the kind of pragmatic voice of reason in Israel that is continually drowned out by the generals who have way too much power in the state.
Disproportionate force is always an interesting question. If the Israelis responded with a small number of poorly aimed rockets and mortars targetting population centers, things would have been proportionate. It also would have been a war crime. So Israel actually carries out military attacks which have a typical military attribute : kill as much of the enemy military and destroy as much of the enemy military’s material as possible. Break things and kill people. That’s what military’s do, and Israel is better at it than its neighbors.
Pretty good article, I’m waiting for part 2.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html
But when you start talking about Israeli exceptionalism etc. (”oh my god 10:1 kill ratio”) don’t forget that each civilian that died in 9/11 has more than 100 (200?, 300?) brown civilians killed in his name in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now the US is not intentionally genocidal, but when it decides to target the “bad guys”, and they happen to live on the planet Earth, then a lot of others get caught up in the mess.
Thanks very much Jane.
I’m glad to hear this and hope it’s true. Now, if there was just some way to get some reality into the media coverage on the bombing of Palestinian civilians. I’ve been watching CNN on this, and their treatment is nothing less than bizarre. Bad simply doesn’t describe it. “Unreal” might be closer.
Two things:
1. The best blog on this is Philip Weiss’s Mondoweiss - www.philipweiss.org
2. The de-gatekeeper-ing of media access through the blogosphere shows how important the previous gatekeeper-ing was, particularly on the Israel issue. It’s the establishment ‘liberal’ media where you can’t publish severe criticism of Israel, but Matt Yglesias, Glenn Greenwald etc, don’t need or want a job at the New Republic. Ten years ago, they’d have begged for one.