I hope that Jane is right about a little more balance in the Israel/Palestinian discussion. I have been drummed out of my fraternity dinner party table for merely suggesting that there are “two sides” to the issue. One woman actually moved her place card to the far end of the table so she wouldn’t have to have me in her line of sight.

I have since moved on to other circles - trying to change the minds of these people is harder than trying to convince a Bushie that Bush really has caused serious damage to our Nation.

Lidice wasn’t this bad, nor this extreme.

The fact that J Street exists is a good sign, FF. It means that someday, it might be possible to see on American network TV the same sort of open discourse on Israeli issues that can be found in major Israeli news outlets like Ha’aretz.

Israel is the ally of the United States. Friends don’t desert their friends. The statistics cited here–only eight killed–belies the civilians killed in the desert commune of Sderot. They are lies. The United States must stand by Israel in all circumstances. Why are 50 million Arabs trying to push a few million Jews into the Sea. It’s anti-Semitism–plain and simple, just like Hitler. If you all want to join such august company, leave me behind.

Lidice was (and is) a village of a few hundred persons, and they just lost 192 of their people, all adult males. The Gaza Strip has a million and a half residents, and over 300 of them have been killed in the last 72 hours.

Got proof? And do the numbers even come close to the IDF-inflicted death toll of the Gazans?

I would love to have a better understanding of the politics in the middle east. Here’s a schedule of upcoming events from Hurriup News:

The impact of the Israeli operations would not only be felt in Palestine, but also in the wider Middle East, as the region prepares to hold a series of elections. Here are some dates that would shape the region in 2009:

* January 9: The negotiation mandate of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ends on Jan. 9. Abbas needs the approval of Hamas to extend the mandate.

* February 10: Israel holds its general elections. Opinion polls show that the nationalist Likud Party is ahead of the Kadima. The recent operations show the hawkish camp has won regardless of who is in charge.

* January 31: Iraqis go to the polls. The recent situation in Palestine would affect the elections in Iraq and strengthen the radical wing.

* April: Parliamentary elections will be held in Lebanon. The Israeli operation would provide support to Hezbollah, eventually resulting in the radicalizing the politics in the country.

* June: Iran holds its presidential elections. The recent situation is likely to boost Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has a tough rhetoric against Israel.

Turkey’s mediation efforts were built on the assumption that there would be no trigger for the domino effect.

The Israeli operation hampers Turkey’s works to build an industrial zone in Gaza, ends the Syrian-Israeli talks, damages the sensitive balance in Lebanon and reduces the chances of finding a peaceful solution to Iran’s nuclear dispute.

That was my point - that the retributive nature of the conduct the Israelis are engaging in is wholly out of any proportion to the wrongs they claim to have suffered. Even further out of proportyion than was the atrocity at Lidice.

The United States must stand by Israel in all circumstances

i was told something similar in the run up to the invasion of iraq - that as an american i must stand by my president in all circumstances.

i didn’t buy it then and i don’t now - not if it means supporting stupid and immoral acts of violence.

Hate to be the cynic, but I suspect that internal Israeli politics are responsible for these attacks….

I don’t know a LOT about internal politics, but the typical secular Israeli is being swamped at the polls by ultra orthodox voters who multiply like flies and are as bad as out wing nuts- but are largely on welfare.

Support young Israeli conscientious objecters who are being put in jail for their refusal to engage in these barbaric war crimes.

Tell Israel: Free the Shministim!

http://december18th.org/

Likud is propped up my the multitudes of Eastern Europeans who have flooded into Israel. Another instance of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

In response to rwcole @ 10.

I was once asked at a cocktail party if I thought it was in the national interests of the US to protect and defend Israel…I couldn’t think of a reason then, nor can I now. If Israel were to fold, I can’t see any serious reprecussions for the USA- but maybe I’m missing something.

Also, you can donate to the International Committee of the Red Cross to help the victims of this carnage:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/si.....l/helpicrc

Israel’s Hasbara program is a well-oil machine, designed specifically as a force multiplier for deflecting all criticism of Israel, and specifically, their “Megaphone” software (developed by Mossad) is designed to allow individual bloggers to inundate blog administrators with what appears to be a barrage of criticism from multiple concern trolls. Many will be right here in this thread - as the word is out and they are on the offensive. They have forced many a blog administrator to ban many a member. Be on the lookout for “Megaphonies.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....megaphone/

Thanks- I believe that there are also many Israelis coming from Asian countries who are very conservative.

Time to get Rude about it!

Thanks for the timeline! That is very helpful for context.

Exactly. Also, look at what the US did to Fallujah after four mercenaries were killed there.

As for the truth…what’s happening today in Palestine is the culmination of a generation-long effort to indoctrinate an Israeli fighting force - brainwashing them into killing civilians without hesitation or moral concern. The purest form of Orwellian evil - teach that a group of people are actually non-people:

“The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

“The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

We have an interest in supporting Israel, as an advanced industrial democracy in the Middle East, so long as their policies and actions are in accord with international law and standards of conduct. When, as now and for the last several years, their actions violate both international law and acceptable norms of behavior, that interest in supporting Israel ends. As I said last night over at Josh Marshall’s place, it is now time to pull the plug on Israel. If they wish to commit national suicide, while regrettable, it is their decision. We, however, cannot allow them to drag us over the cliff with them. As long as we continue to support Israel while they commit wear crimes and atrocities, we become a justifiable target for Arab and Muslim rage and attacks.

Condi and Laura say that history will judge their little man well.

The fact that the thousands of rockets have resulted in few deaths is a testimony to their inaccuracy and Israeli civil defense efficiency. It does not reflect the intent of Hamas, which is to kill as many civilians as possible. Per Hamas TV, only about 25% of those killed in the first wave of attacks on Gaza were non-combatants. The aim of the attack was military targets, as opposed the civilians target by Hamas.

Laura claims that GW Clusterfuck is a natural athlete, so of course it was easy for him to duck the shoes thrown at him.

Funny that such a natural athlete couldn’t even earn a letter at an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL

Yes, but it is the Eastern Europeans, specifically the Hassadim, who are at the heart of the Ultra-Orthodox movement (the Israeli equivalent of of our own Christian Right or the Taliban), which is radically Zionist and expansionist. They are allied with the settler movement and together form the core constituency of Likud.

How about this: if Israel ceased to exist, the US would lose access to a powerful regional ally that can provide intelligence and military assistance to help steal Arab oil. Yeah, that’s oversimplified, but seems to explain something.

Maybe you are.
The US was central to the founding of Israel, despite the opposition of the State Department, opposition based on US self-interest.

Of course, Thinking along your cocktail party line, what harm to us if Gaza goes under?

“We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not…You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world.” (Chaim Weizmann, Published in “Judische Rundschau,” No. 4, 1920)

Zionist leader, President of the World Zionist Organization, and the first President of the State of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Weizmann

I have never found the “moral” discussion about the middle east productive

Both sides can find greivances enough to justify continued aggression.

I would prefer to see a discussion of what could both sides do to move toward a resolution….

Unfortunately- it’s not in the political issue of either side to seek resolution right now.

Israel is run by people who owe their continued power to military aggression- and likewise for Hamas…so it will continue.

But he did letter. He was a cheerleader. (Photo is actually from his Andover days.)

Per Hamas TV, only about 25% of those killed in the first wave of attacks on Gaza were non-combatants.

Let’s remember this comment when the inevitable rejoinder comes later accusing critics of Israel that they casually dismiss the loss of Israeli lives as somehow unimportant.

agreed, they are taking us over the cliff.

After GWB we will be lucky if history isn’t written in Chinese.

IIRC, didn’t the US Marines kill all males of adult age there, too?

IIRC, the commanders of that operation got promoted - all the more reason to prosecute Bushco.

“Just because the other guy is doing it, doesn’t make it right.” Somewhere, that lesson was omitted in the upbringing of many world leaders, including the US’ and Israel’s, it would seem.

The US has a history of overturning or attempting to overturn democratically elected governments across the globe–although it has supported a lot of capitalist dictatorships.

The US needs no pulling down when it comes to war crimes.

PhoenixWoman - great post and great information.

Then perhaps Israel should not have created and funded Hamas as a foil to the PLO, ya think?

As the American Military Industrial Complex thrives on purported terror and “AlQaeda,” so to the IDF and Mossad require Hamas to ensure their power, funding, relevance, and the justification for the creation of Eretz Israel, from the Nile to the Euphrates.

A Coincidence Theorist might actually believe that Al Qaeda and Hamas exist independently and are funded only by those whom they appear to represent.

As for those “rockets.”

Google: “False flag”

See who the experts of the tactic are.

Then Google: “USS Liberty Incident”

Nothing is as it appears. Nothing.

He was actually a pitcher at Yale- but as I recall, he didn’t play.

stunning, isn’t it?

Seems like US supports Israel for economic reasons rather than moral?

He was the Head Cheerleader his senior year at Yale as well as playing baseball (according to wiki which I won’t link to for this).

But given that his father also played baseball at Yale, I assume it was another example of his daddy issues coming to the fore.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 :

“We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

And who could forget chimp’s legendary rugby career at Yale?

http://www.yopyop.com/citizens.....rpunch.gif

Yeah- as I recall he rode the pines and rarely if ever appeared in a game.

This is the fuckin IVY LEAGUE!

I think the theory is that Israel is a sort of falling domino blocker to the scenario whereby all of the middle east falls under one form or another of Islamic theocracy that is acively hostile to US interests (aka oil).

None that I can see. In terms of strict national self interest, we don’t have a dog in that hunt- however our support for Israel actually HURTS us when it comes to relationships with middle east oil producing nations while support for “Palestine” helps us.

Israel is the ally of the United States. Friends don’t desert their friends. The statistics cited here–only eight killed–belies the civilians killed in the desert commune of Sderot. They are lies. The United States must stand by Israel in all circumstances. Why are 50 million Arabs trying to push a few million Jews into the Sea. It’s anti-Semitism–plain and simple, just like Hitler. If you all want to join such august company, leave me behind.

Allies are supposed to help each other. How has Israel helped the US anytime in the last 40 years? How has it strengthened, not weakened our postion, in the region?

Lies? Do you have links? Are you seriously saying that many more Palesitinians than Israelis have not been killed? Are you saying that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli lives?

Why must the US stand by Israel under all circumstances? We don’t even stand by Britain under all circumstances. Your position is as extreme as it is ridiculous.

Don’t you think that the being pushed into the sea argument has gotten a little old? Israel has 200 nuclear weapons. It has the best armed forces in the Middle East other than ours currently in Iraq. And it has used its armed forces to push around the Arabs in the region not the other way around.

So much as you would have it otherwise. In Gaza, you have a larger country with large modern armed forces beating up on the duly elected government with very weak forces. I would remind you too that Hamas respected generally a ceasefire with Israel while Israel continued an economic blockade of the territory, invaded it on November 4, and continued its settlement expansions on the West Bank.

Anti-semitism because we don’t agree with your grossly distorted and self-serving characterizations? How much more completely morally and intellectually bankrupt can you possibly be? I know this will have no effect on someone so resistant to facts but would you hold these same views of the situation if Israel was an Arab state and Gaza was inhabited by Jews? Would your views be the same if this was some other country in Asia or Africa, and not Israel?

That’s pretty funny given the fact that the existance of Israel is probably the number one accelerator of radical moslem growth.

Per Hamas TV, only about 25% of those killed in the first wave of attacks on Gaza were non-combatants.

Not quite. Some western press is reporting what they say was said on Hamas TV.

“More than 180 Palestinian policemen were killed including the [Police] Commander, General Tawfik Jaber.”

Now policemen may well wear uniforms but they are NOT military.

What have you been smoking?

In the weeks following 9/11:

“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli spy ring (google “israeli art students”) phone tap scandal (Google: cameron + fox + comverse) and the Mossad Agents caught red-handed on 9/11: (Google “DANCING ISRAELIS”) suggests that Mr. Sharon was not joking.

No it was not based on US self interest.

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel “aided Hamas directly — the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),” said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,” said a former senior CIA official.

http://www.informationclearing.....e10456.htm

Allies are supposed to help each other. How has Israel helped the US anytime in the last 40 years? How has it strengthened, not weakened our postion, in the region?

The Israelis are well financed by the US/MIC to foment war in the middle east thereby making ooodles of filthy lucre for the profiteers… humans hell who gives a shit “We Are The Ones” Sounds a like the theme song from the Highlander

Except for the perceived self interest in having Europe send it’s surviving jews to Israel rather than here (of course many DID come here- but it could have been millions more)

I think you were replying to my post, and I said “combatants” not military.

Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,” said a former senior CIA official.

And while we are at it let us not forget that the Americans funded what later became the Taliban.

Way to go Hugh

Interesting. Thank you for the information, although it is thirty years old.

I would note, however, that this sort of support is not unusual. After all, as the saying goes, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” This would be similar to the US’s funding of the mujahadeen, who would later form the core of the Taliban. Blowback sucks!

But to your point, I am sure you are right. Israel probably now regrets that action, as it will later regret this one. My point was that, in discussions of proportionality, one must consider intent.

Support for Israel v. Palestine hurts us if you are talking diplomacy, not military force.

Israeli intelligence funded/created Hamas.

US intelligence funded/created Al Aqaeda.

Is there any proof that either ever stopped?

The military industrial complex and the Globalist Agenda just rolls on.

amen from the bleacher section.

This is a point I have been trying to make as well. Some here have been saying that those devious Hamas guys put military installations in among civilians deliberately. But Gaza is mostly urban. The military installations are mostly police stations and where else would you put police station except in among the people they serve? If you live in New York would you exspect the police to have their stations in New Jersey? The Israelis have been bombing these stations and targeting policemen. These are most of the “fighters” they have been killing. And what precisely is the point of doing this? These are not the people who have been firing rockets into Israel. They are however important for the maintenance of law and order and social stability. And it is for this reason they are being killed. By killing them Israel seeks to weaken the social fabric of society in Gaza and thereby weaken Hamas.

However I must point out while this the ostensible Israeli strategy, the real object of the Israeli assault is a thoroughly bloody-minded attempt to shoot up the place to boost the Kadima party’s standing in the polls in the run up to the February 2009 national elections in Israel.

Jiminy cricket everyone in Gaza is an “combatant”, or at least I hope so, they are fighting for their country against a mega army with the full backing of a fucking crazy in the WH. Combatant, of course they are bloody combatants so I guess the chosen ones can blow them all to hell the cowardly bastards.

I am not sure what you are saying here. I will say that I do not hold out the US as a paragon of virtue, nor do I deny our many transgressions, but rather abohor and denounce them (publicly in classes in fact, when relevant). That does not mean that we should support the war crimes of others. Past misbehavior does not justify current or future misbehavior.

Gee I almost got a speeding ticket from my local combatants last week. /s

Actually, the real intent is to kill every last Palestinian. Period.

The Zionist leadership has been saying it for a century. I think we should take them at their word. They want to kill every last one of them.

We are seeing the culmination of it right now, in this US Leadership Vacuum.

It’s been planned for a decade - and this administration is complicit.

My point was that, in discussions of proportionality, one must consider intent.

The principal intent for the attacks on Gaza happening now are to help Kadima in the upcoming election. How is that for intent?

That’s the ticket foot

Hugh do you know if some of our neo-cons over there helping Likud as they did a number of years ago?

This thing is not about Jews or their religion. This is about a country which we support killing people and depriving them of the necessary things they need to live and thrive. I get to criticize the US gov’t because I pay for it. I can criticize the Israeli gov’t for the same reason.

I agree with you completely. My point was that we don’t support countries because they are democracies (the US has a proven history of overthrowing democracies) but that we more likely support Israel for economic reasons.

Yes. Thank you.

Starving 1.5 million people is inflamatory and criminal. Hebrews have from the 1930s agressively sought to take what was a British Protectorate for themselves….by any means….be it murder, kidnapping torture or other means of force. They have usurped more and more of the land and the resources needed to sustain life.
Isreal has no intention of being fair or just. We are supporting a criminal nation. A proven history of crimes exists. Once Palestinians have been “put down” permanaently. They will focus on Iran.
Remember they were stationed in Georgia as a froward air base to strike Iran in last springs run up to the Georgia war promoted by McInsane.
Their airforce has a wide range across the Middle East and friendly airspace in Iraq.
This provocation of Hamas was well planned and purposeful…they want an opportunity to annilate them and install the more moderate Fatah which is in their best interests.

Most of our original support for Israel stemmed from the growing Soviet influence over the Arab governments in the region during the 1950s (there is an irony in our supporting a socialist state at the time). We also perceived them as significantly more Western, since most Israelis were European or American Jews.

It’s basically two groups singing together off the same page.

Their airforce has a wide range across the Middle East and friendly airspace in Iraq.

I believe the SOFA returns control of the Iraqi air space to Iraq

If they want to complain about terrorist attacks, perhaps they should read their own history. The founders of Israel pioneered most of the modern methods.

This provocation of Hamas was well planned and purposeful…they want an opportunity to annilate them and install the more moderate Fatah which is in their best interests.

i have trouble buying this about the current attack. the attack, while brutal and bloody, does not seem as of yet designed to annihilate anyone. hugh’s thesis seems more likely - that it is primarily at attempt by kadima to give themselves a chance in the upcoming election (which, according to recent polls, they were expect to lose to likud).

from the 1930s agressively sought to take what was a British Protectorate for themselves….by any means….be it murder, kidnapping torture or other means of force.

And let us not forget that it was Menachim Begin that was in part responsible for the bombing at the King David Hotel… a method of terror that has now been adopted by their opponents.

Virtually every leader of Israel up through Begin was a former member of Irgun, and internationally recognized terrorist group which pioneered most of the techniques now employed (they invented the car bomb used with such deadly effect against civilians at the King David Hotel).

The Palestinian Police are hardly traffic cops.

and I thought you guys were refering to the zealot who blew himself up in a crowded mosque.

Yes and they are world renowned for their assassination practices.

OK, I guess I should have said “armed combatants,” I would also note that only the Palestinian side recruits children as “soldiers” and suicide bombers.

The point is that there is not a moral equivalence here. When one replies to an attack on one’s country, even one aimed at civilian populations, one should aim at military targets. From what we are hearing, even from the Hamas TV, the majority of the dead fit this category.

Yes, which made some sense at the time when the Soviet Union was a powerful mortal enemy of the US. But conditions in the world have changed in a way that no longer binds democracy and free market capitalism, and the US really cares more about free markets than democracy.

So, I argue that Israel being a democracy is irrelevant as a practical matter for US policy. It’s impact on the US economy is what drives US policy.

Oh, that was just one of many, many such attacks. The Irgun and the Stern Gang were clearly Hezbollah/al Qaeda level terrorists. I have a section in my race and ethnicity class where I talk about ethnic conflicts and bring all this up in regard to the current I-P conflict. Nobody’s hands are clean here and for the Israelis to pretend that theirs are is simply ludicrous.

Perhaps (and I would want to see extensive substantial proof otherwise), but they are not permissible military targets under international law.

As I said above and over at TPMCafe, it is clearly time to pull the plug on Israel until they can elect sane and rational leaders who behave in accordance with international law. And yes, I would have advocated that our own allies do the same thing during the past 8 years.

OK, I guess I should have said “armed combatants,” I would also note that only the Palestinian side recruits children as “soldiers” and suicide bombers.

Whatever…. I do believe that the police in this country are also armed.

The only democracy in the Middle East? A place for displaced Jews after the worst Holocaust known to man? What kind of people can fault courageous people from fighting for their little piece of territory that has been theirs for 3000 years.

As are the police in most countries and all of them are protected by the Geneva Conventions.

Bibi Natenyahu has supported his opponent in the elections in putting down the murders of the civilian Israelis–the Hamas in Gaza.

courageous people from fighting for their little piece of territory that has been theirs for 3000 years.

Hmmm. No. That is a higky dubious claim based on religious dogma and not on any actual occupancy or ingoing title. The Hebrews were largely expelled from Palestine almost 2000 years ago. The ancestors of the modern Palestinians (who almost certainly include Hebrews who converted to Christianity or Islam) occupied and held title to the territory for the past 2000 years. Claims such as yours have no legal and minimal moral standing or else the Welsh and Cornish would have the right to expell the English (whose title is far more recent than that of the Palestinians).

Native Americans were unable to expel us white guys from the Black Hills, their sacred ground. It was given to them in two treaties in the 1850s and then gold was discovered there.

The issue wasn’t a moral one- it was one of national self interest.

As for “only democracy in the middle east

What about Gaza, Turkey, Iraq, etc.

Two seperate resolutions of the British Government (Lord Balfour) repeated in the 20s, and the votes of the United States, China and the Soviet Union in the newly created UN created Israel as their Promised Land of 3000 years…

For anyone interested in a reasoned and unbiased discussion of why the US supports Israel, I would recommend “The Israel Lobby” by Mearsheimer and Walt. The authors have been crucified for both their original article in the London Review of Books and for their later book.

Jerusalem has been in the hands of the jews a few hundred years out of the last several thousand. It has been in the hands of christians a slightly larger span of time and in the hands of moslems the greatest part of the period.

Religious tolerance has been least at the hands of the jewish community- best at the hands of moslems- and somewhere in the middle when the crusaders ran the place.

“The promised land” as described in the Bible has NEVER been under Jewish control- at the peak ( a couple of hundred of years) a small part of it was under (divided) jewish rule. (according to the Bible)

See my 98

Thanks.

It was not given to them by anyone, the Black Hills belonged to the Lakota by aboriginal title and the treaties simply recognized that title. Treaties do not “give” anything to Native people. At most they recognize existing aboriginal rights and title and generally take things away. Almost every Indian treaty in the US is a land sales contract between the tribes and the US government. Financial and other aid given to Indians (such as healthcare) were part of the purchase price paid by the US. This is not a question of “moral title”, but of established federal law.

Which have no general standing in international law except among the signatories.

If nothing else, the Israelis have it by right of conquest. If you’re going to use the Indians as examples, then we Americans have it by the Manifest Destiny of the US Military. The IDF has the manifest destiny of clearing the Land of David for Israel.

That was for FormerFed’s 101.

I am not contesting Israel’s current title to the pre-1968 territories. I am talking about the more radical claims to the mythical “Land of David” (which strongly resemble German claims to the Sudetenland, Alsace-Lorraine, etc.) which you are promulgating. Also, as the father of a Cherokee son, I am definitely the last person you want to use that Manifest Destiny bullshit argument on.

The SCOTUS, in a landmark case, called the farce of a treaty that was imposed on the Lakota the darkest period of american history. They awarded the Lakota $100s of billions. The Lakota refused the cash and wanted their land back. The treasury is supposed to be holding the money for them in an interest bearing account. (I’ll bet they are.)
See Black Hills, White Justice
http://www.google.com/books?id.....te+Justice

We’re through the looking glass.

My 111 for you

Once the Crusaders had breached the outer walls and entered they killed many of the citizens about 40,000 to some accounts, the killing was for the most part indiscriminate both of Muslims and Jews. [4] Although many inhabitants were killed many were also allowed to live by either paying a tax or being expelled from Jerusalem.[5]

Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where, according to one account in Gesta, ”…the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles…” According to Raymond of Aguilers ”men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins.”

You’re welcome.

Happy New Year

The Interior Department indeed are holding the funds in trust in an interest bearing account (though I would not put any bets on the accounting procedures) as is normal. The SCOTUS did not really have any legal choice in this matter as it was set in the Indian Claims Commission Act, under which the Lakota claim was brought. Under the act, the Claims Commission can only award monetary compensation and is expressly prohibited from retoring title to the lands in question. You are correct that this was a gross miscarriage of justice, but the fault is in the legislation, not the SCOTUS decision. Now Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe on the other hand.

The IDF has the manifest destiny of clearing the Land of David for Israel.

by “clearing” do you mean clearing the land of arabs?

i just want to make sure before i say anything about the crime of ethnic cleansing.

“Manifest Destiny” is hardly something that anyone should bandy about as either ‘justification’ or something to be proud of.

Bravo! To you, Dr. Dick, my respect for and appreciation of you is immense (and growing).

DW

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P.S. I was the stepdad for 5 Sioux

Try it again here.

If the link doesn’t work just go to Wikipedia and search for the case name (actually Oliphant should get it).

Propagandized talking points that overlook a big picture and a longer history.

But thanks for all your sharing.

In regards to your last sentence, I would like to add there IS one more little salient point to all this:

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/20.....ield-news/

There’s $4 Billion of natural gas just off the Gazan coast that belongs to Gaza. And the Palistineans since Arafat and up to now have at times threatened to cut Isreal out of any of the development, production and RECEPTION of that gas. In fact, the latest Hamas noise making was to sell ALL the gas to Egypt.

Follow the money. And the power and control, of course by the few over the many.

Great stuff FDL folks . . . I’m especially thankful for the links to the Israeli propaganda machinations. I had not heard of them . . . Megaphones indeed . . . . and SOME comments at this blog seem to come from just that kind of model.

People, Christ, what is happening is not about “the Hebrews.” Israel did not come from “the Hebrews,” and the Bible is not a historical text any more than it is a land deed. Israel came from Eastern European and Russian atheists who formed the political leadership of the Zionist movement. Israel was a product of 19th century colonialism and nationalism.