The Israeli Air Force is apparently very happy with the performance of a "new bunker-buster missile that it received recently from the United States" (Israel ordered 1000 of the GBU-39 in September) and while "Col. Moshe Levy was interviewed by several Arab news outlets during which he stressed that Israel was not against the Palestinian public in Gaza but was operating against Hamas":
Defense officials said Sunday that Israel would, however, not hesitate to target the homes of civilians who protected Hamas terrorists throughout the operation.
While sorting through Gaza news last night, I ran across three essays worth reading. Two were published today in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz, the last one, by Nir Rosen, appeared in the Guardian.
In the first, Amira Hass explains that the Gaza strike is not against Hamas, it’s against all Palestinians:
At 12 A.M. on Sunday, a phone call roused S. "I wasn’t sleeping anyway," he said. "I picked up the receiver and heard a recorded announcement in Arabic: ‘This is to warn you that we will bomb the house of anyone who has arms or ammunition at home.’"
Then Tom Segev shows why trying to "teach Hamas a lesson" is fundamentally wrong:
As a corollary, Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.
Finally, Nir Rosen lays it all on the line and reminds us of the true meaning of “terrorism”:
An American journal once asked me to contribute an essay to a discussion on whether terrorism or attacks against civilians could ever be justified. My answer was that an American journal should not be asking whether attacks on civilians can ever be justified. This is a question for the weak, for the Native Americans in the past, for the Jews in Nazi Germany, for the Palestinians today, to ask themselves.
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This morning Michael Hannlon was saying about the same thing as Segrev: that this sort of action is counter-productive and generates more enemies. Is there some reason the leaders cannot compute these facts, the reality, and do more productive action?
Yes. Land.
Boy oh boy, it seems that “terrorists” are starting very young.
What an interesting answer: I was teaching my Sunday material yesterday, and the Psalm (obviously some of the best of Old Israel) focused on the works of the Creator God and the way that all things come from God and belong to God. The inference certainly is that “we” (any of us) do not own the land. That would be a pretty good starting point, I think. Not to sound condescending, because I know we are talking about serious issues, but maybe the good Israel people should return to a reading of the Psalms. They are seminal in the faith.
listening to cnbc this morning. financial crisis in the us/world might be an issue regarding the timing of this attack(s). wars cost $$$ which israel might find in short supply with the next admin despite “unshakable” bama.
I find myself in agreement with Col. Moshe Levy on the point quoted above: those who are storing weapons, or housing Hamas fighters, have voluntarily surrendered their status as non-combatants, and should expect to be targeted. If they become casualties, they should be counted as “military”, not “civilian”, although no doubt Hamas-supplied figures will shift as many as possible from the former to the latter category. (Surely it can’t have escaped anyone by now that Hamas deliberately creates such situations, putting Palestinian civilians in harm’s way, in order to use their bodies as future talking points?)
It appears to me, thus far, that the IDF is taking considerable pains to avoid collateral damage. (This is not to say that such efforts have been or will be completely successful; of course they won’t. This is one of many reasons why war is a horrible thing.) I note that it is certainly well within their military power to flatten every structure in Gaza, yet they’ve not done so, nor does it appear that they will — even though such an action would be simpler, faster, cheaper and far less risky than the course they’ve chosen.
when your only weapon is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
“putting Palestinian civilians in harm’s way, in order to use their bodies as future talking points”
Don’t agree with your reasoning here.
Very interesting take from Robert Fisk of the Independent. Mr Fisk has been reporting on the events in the ME for about 30 years and is quite familiar with the dynamics of this area.
http://www.independent.co.uk/o…..15045.html
Are you this suggesting that this abrogates them of the responsibility for the blockade that has lasted for months and months. A blockade against food, medicine and fuel. A blockade that prevented any products from leaving Gaza as well such as produce when it came in so it all rotted.
Exactly! From conflict comes opportunity. Peace is the true enemy of expansionists.
not to worry, congress is on it. /s
via Foreign Affairs Committee public ListServe (sign up at http://www.HCFA.house.gov):
Astonishing, simply astonishing. Nuremberg war criminals couldn’t have said it better.
I’d like to ask the Israeli government (and all the hawks there) why they hate their ancestors so much that they had to become the enemies of those ancestors.
It’s the only reason I can come up with for their cruelty to the Palestinians.
By your logic all Israelis that send their sons and daughters to murder non-jews are guilty of terrorism and should be targeted.
The Palestinians are fighting against an illegal (according to the UN) occupation and against violent oppression by a war mongering society, a society that has chosen itself as the “chosen people”. The Israelis have murdered, maimed, starved, assaulted, caged, incarcerated and generally defiled an innocent peoples that had their land stolen from them by the colonialist english. Land that was subsequently given to a group of people that were treated harshly by a fascist government. The Israelis now are a fascist government and are treating another group of people harshly. The Israelis have ignored UN resolutions (22 I believe) and yet have been protected by the United States….. the same united states that bombed the hell out of an innocent peoples in Iraq.
The Israelis will never “win” by bombing the hell out of innocent people and may they get all punishment due them for their actions.
Saw “Slumdog Millionaire” recently. Locale: Mumbai, India. A stark, visual reminder of what poverty and ghettos look like. What they breed, beyond disease. How generation after generation, being beaten down literally and metaphorically, spawn more generations of furiously angry people, hell-bent for revenge. People who grew up side-stepping all “law and order” because it was the only way to survive, e.g., secure food. I have been relatively supportive of Israel over time, owing mostly to the stunning historical persecution of Jews. Social justice bias leans to the underdog. But it seems to me that Israel has become a frightening country, wielding power and weapons in disproportionate amounts. RevBev, it is reminiscent of the Old Testament God of wrath and carnage, Psalms notwithstanding. I became frightened of the U.S. when it bullied its way into Iraq and slaughtered whomever got in its way. They were trained to do that. Israel scares me in much the same way. Is Hamas blameless in all of this? Hell no! But start this comment at the beginning. Where did the rage originate? And does it matter now? I think it does.
If the Israelis had lived up to the agreements and had stopped the ever growing settlements and had stopped trhe blockades and had not built their vile concrete walls the rockets would not be firing.
And yet more murder, bigotry and hatred in the name of religion. Without religion we would be a better world.
In his Informed Comment, Juan Cole put things into perspective yesterday.
Insofar as Hamas is the democraticly elected government of the Palestinian people, and insofar as Palestine has no national military per se, and insofar as accepting your logic would make any well regulated national militia in Palestine illegitimate, are we to take it you think the Palestinian people should simply lie down and die? Or what?
no matter what the israelis do it will be wrong. that is why they need the land. reminds me of the nationalistic fever that overtakes the us when just one of our citizens dies. we are then entitled to massacre.
Well, not sure about that, though I admit my thinking wanders along that line sometimes. Religion sans spirit, used as a front, an excuse, a pretense is no more praise-worthy than predatory, bully governments. Religious thought/belief that begins within is a different thing, I think. I hope. It’s getting harder to tell the difference.
i don’t think so either. that statement from berman is vile.
there is nothing wrong with a person’s personal belief. the problem comes with dogma and states run by dogma.
Quite the contrary. Israel can do no wrong, per every politician who has addressed the matter. E.g., through a spokesman PEBO has expressed that he “understands” Israels need to do whatever it deems necessary.
Juan Cole also points out that Israel actually helped to fund and create Hamas in the 1980s as a foil to the secular PLO.
yes, i should have qualified that observation. quite right. until the us reigns back the christians in this counrty we will have status quo.
Yup. And I posit that personal belief gets lost in the chaos. As with diplomacy and negotiation, it is essential to be able to listen, to leaders, to each other, to the holy. No one is listening. Babel prevails and carnage follows.
that is my hope re bama. listening is a first step.
In theory, separation of church and state is a good thing. In reality, it creates cognitive/spiritual dissonance. In the heat of war-mongering, the holy loses every time.
When people eschew reality and base their actions on the belief in a tooth fairy then their beliefs are and actions are dangerous.
Really, I seldom state my view from a religious perspective. The Psalms, here, I thought were particularly relevant in the view of true ownership of the land. Even for the “chosen people” the land was not given in ownership, but almost as a life estate for stewardship. I do think that is helpful. Because the implication clearly is that land in such a holding should be well managed or the use of the land is reclaimed. That happened to Old Israel…let those with ears, hear. Anyway, it makes sense to me.
Oh, I’m not disagreeing! I think there is the same cherry-picking of Old Testament scripture going on in the ME as New Testament cherry-picking by the religious right in the U.S. Unlike AA, I don’t think it boils down to “take what you like and leave the rest.”
I think the “holy” is and has been (for many centuries) coopted by the war mongers. Personal belief doesn’t get lost – it never existed for the masses. KKKarl knows this he and his cohorts creat it.
excellent biblical arguement. i imagine that israel views “well managed” to be occupied at any cost. they are on the wrong side of this and have no other option right now.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
–Voltaire”
In other words, it is insufficient to ferret out, “Veangeance is mine, thus saith the Lord,” emblazon it on your weaponry and make it justification for wreaking havoc.
he was a great thinker. i like that one.
Oh, I thought Voltaire pre-dated the Bush administration! /s
Time has a reasonably good article for the MSM on the Israeli assault on Gaza.
http://www.time.com/time/world…..64,00.html
It doesn’t explain why Israel was blockading Gaza during a supposed truce. Nor does it question sufficiently the brutality of the attacks. It does work in the Israeli election angle and points out that this will likely result in another strategic defeat for Israel.
cnn reports “Obama could inherit Gaza crisis”.
how about that for some heads up reporting?
Just catching up – interesting points!
I hope folks take the time to read Nir Rosen’s piece – it’s stunning.
I don’t expect Israel to stand by while they’re being rocketed. I don’t expect Hamas to stand by while Israel systematically crushes them.
A pox on both their houses.
I place the majority of blame on those fools in Hamas. They went too far and it’s not like they weren’t warned. Their best bet was always to stop the terror and show that they can govern, while reminding everyone they won that election.
International opinion is not going to stop Israel this time, not with an election coming and both sides needing domestic support. Hamas should have known that. Israeli response has always been disproportionate, Hamas should have known that. Hamas should have known that they’re NOT hezbollah, they have only verbal support from Syria and Iran.
Maybe its time for everybody ELSE to get together, work out a peace treaty and then make both sides eat it as is. Hrrumph.
Boxturtle (Hoping Obama will be seen by both sides as someone they can work with)
Meanwhile the Bush Administration continues to blame Palestinians for getting themselves killed by Israel bombs.
Hamas was democratically elected, right? And these attacks are against Hamas they say?
Just shows how all the Repub and BigMedia talk about spreading “freedom” and “democracy” is complete bullshnizzle.
i agree. got the link from the comments at MoA and quoted this bit in christy’s thread:
this is exactly what i fear. the two state solution is long dead (under clinton’s watch if not before) and israel’s leaders and ours are now making a one state solution less likely. but if not a binational state, what is there left but mass ethnic cleaning (or worse) of either the palestinians or jewish israelis? madness
chairman berman (house foreign relations) agrees (see 12).
This ignores that even while Hamas was observing a truce, Israel was not. It continued strikes in Gaza and more importantly continued its economic blockade of it.
Oh yes…Condi pushed for those elections!
Why blame Islam?
Individuals, not religions, carry out inhuman acts.
Islam is a religion of peace, accepted and practiced by more than 1.25 billion people worldwide. It is the fastest-growing religion in the world, and if it was what some critics claim, why should the people from all walks of life from around the world keep embracing Islam? Where is the sword now?
In Islam, a person has the right to defend himself, his family, his country or his neighbor(s), which justifies the resistance being offered by the people of Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Iraq, Kashmir and Palestine, to attacks on their soils by the so-called liberators, who are actually the occupiers.
The Holy Qur’an clearly states that if a person saves one life, it’s as if he saved humanity, and if a person kills one human being, it’s as if he killed humanity.
- Samuel P. Huntington (author The Clash Of Civilizations)
[mod note: Comment edited by moderator. Please do not post entire articles. Post a summary with a link instead. Thank you.]
THOU SHALL NOT KILL, PERIOD.
All followers of the three (3) great Abrahamic religions, Judaism,
Christianity and Islam believe in the Ten (10) Commandments. In our humble
opinion, if anyone killed another innocent human being or himself, he is neither
a Jew, nor a Christian, nor a Muslim, because he disobeyed one of the
most important Commandments of Almighty God (Allah): Thou Shall Not Kill.
……..
[mod note: Comment edited by moderator. Please do not post entire articles. Post a summary with a link instead. Thank you.]
COME! LET’S CHANGE
THE WOR(L)D TOGETHER
The Truth About the Talmud
Let’s Remove Blasphemy Against Jesus And Mary
And Hatred For Gentiles* (Non-Jews) From Talmud
*The Rest of Humanity
A Documented Exposé of Supremacist Rabbinic Hate Literature
By Warrant of John 18:37, Galatians 4:16
Copyright ©2000-2006 by Michael A. Hoffman II All Rights Reserved
Introduction
The Talmud is Judaism’s holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): “My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).”
The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may also be seen in the case of the black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians are very knowledgeable of the Old Testament. However, their religion is so ancient it pre-dates the Scribes’ Talmud, of which the Ethiopians have no knowledge. According to the N.Y. Times of Sept. 29, 1992, p.4:
“The problem is that Ethiopian Jewish tradition goes no further than the Bible or Torah; the later Talmud and other commentaries that form the basis of modern traditions never came their way.”
RevisionistHistory.org
[mod note: Comment edited by moderator. Please do not post entire articles. Post a summary with a link instead. Thank you.]
thanks, but a link to those might have been better for us.
Succinct. Thanks
Frankly I am not so sure that this killing of the Palestinians is about religion or land I think it is about the interests of the MIC. There can be a lot of money to be made by supporting a bunch of fanatics to foment trouble in the Middle East.
Not after he chose Hillary as the Secretary of State and appointed a Dennis Ross as his Mideast advisor.
Qazi, you are simply ignoring much of human history. I have often said that all religions have two phases. The first is where a group gets together to proclaim peace, love, and universal brother and sisterhood. This phase lasts about a half hour. In the second phase, those who have accepted this original message decide whom they can rob, persecute, and kill for not believing as they do. This second phase takes up the rest of the religion’s history.
You can say that this or that religion is all about peace etc. but me, I look at the body counts.
I do not ignore that at all. Israel never gave Hamas a chance. Never. Hamas refused to swear off Israel’s destruction, but how many times did Israel deal without that precondition? Lots. Israel didn’t want to deal.
From Israel’s point of view, every one of those strikes was directed at a so called “ticking bomb”. And Hamas spent the entire time of the truce digging tunnels under the Egyption border to smuggle arms.
Hamas give Israel every excuse it needed NOT to deal. Fools.
Boxturtle (You can’t stop them if both sides want to fight)
Bingo!
Been going on for generations now.
http://warisaracket.com/
I plan to follow Alan Grayson’s time in Congress quite closely. I’ve never seen a politician so capable and willing to take on the Military Complex. Should be fun to watch him work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61dD4X8Doa0
but that ignores the religious traditions like the quakers.
maybe it’s not about religion at all? or at least that it’s mostly about human nature and our capacity for both good and evil?
i don’t know, but i’m skeptical of attributing either the good or evil that we humans do to religion.
Had something to say did ya. *g* thanks. Within the context of religious thought it is very valuable. Personally I wouldn’t mind if the “old testament” was recognized for what it is – the delusional ramblings of a lot of very old dead men.
No, I’m not suggesting that at all. I confined my remarks solely to the single point made by the Colonel, and deliberately did not address larger issues such as “how did we get here?” and “who is to blame?” — notably the latter, since the list which answers that question is very long. (I’ll note in passing that I assign significant blame to neighboring Arab states, especially Saudi Arabia, which have the space and money to accommodate the entire Palestinian population within their borders as a mere trivial matter…yet which have not done so, apparently preferring that these people live (and die) in terrible conditions so that they can be used as talking points when it’s politically convenient. Note the reports yesterday from the CNN wire stating that when the wall with Egypt was breached, that Egyptian border guards fired on Palestinians attempting to flee. AND note that Hamas members did the same.)
So I’m not, by any means, expressing support for anybody’s “side” in this because none of them deserve it. I am, however, pointing out that the tactical reality is that the IDF appear to be, from all accounts, going after military targets — whereas Hamas is well-known for going after civilian targets, or perhaps more precisely, for using weapons that cannot be targeted accurately in situations where they are well aware that civilians are present or even predominant. Those quick to point at the casualty figures should pause to consider that were it otherwise — were the IDF using Hamas’ tactics — those numbers would be at least an order of magnitude larger. Consider as well that the only reason for the IDF to use ground forces — and to accept the risk to their own personnel that this implies — is to minimize Palestinian casualties, since they could obviously continue airstrikes with minimal, if any, risk to their own forces.
Quite the contrary. Hamas is largely a creation of Israel.
Did you ever consider that the Palestinians might prefer to live in Palestine?
There is a point where, when jumping in midstream, the utilization of logic can exacerbate a basic fallacy. Ultimately this can lead a military to say something like “we had to destroy the village in order to save it”
P.S. Damn those Native Americans. It is their fault that the US had to attempt genocide. Why didn’t they just sneak into Canada.
Yeah that worked really well in Vietnam!!!! Of course destroying a village will use up some ammo and stuff which will require more ammo and stuff to be manufactured and sold. Nothing like a little buck for your bang.
wee smile ~
You know, “what’s happening now” is almost immaterial – there are good, decent people in every group, and people in every group who crave war and bloodshed, hoping that this will solve the problem. This family feud between the sons of Abraham has been going on so long that any original cause is unimportant – revenge is the only reason needed, and that is self-renewing. Every once in a while, someone on either side steps up and tries to point out the terrible stupidity and evil of this foolish hatred, and is naturally killed for interfering in the Godly slaughter (cf Jesus of Nazareth). I see no end to it; it’s human to hate the ‘other’ and to play ‘tit for tat’ never-ending revenge games – it happens all over the world, with every people in every land. Only when people really begin to realize that it is their own sons that they’re killing, their own daughters that they’re raping; their own wives that their butchering, will there be any hope, however feeble, of some end to this Satanic dance of death.
Why is it always the same fucking story: an Israeli who keeps an assault rifle in his home is a “reservist,” but a Palestinian who does likewise is a “terrorist”?
Can infants and children voluntarily surrender their status as non-combatants?
I was perhaps not clear enough in the post – the warnings are a form of psychological warfare making all Gazans targets.