Will we stop hearing about Warren after 20 Jan?

I always love the “why aren’t you blogging about something else” comment.

that’s what I’m afraid of….that we won’t

My guess is that Obama has plans to place Warren on some blue ribbon panel.

Elisabeth Bumiller has an article up at the NYT on US troops being kept on in Iraq.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12…..=1&hp

It is actually not that badly written. I am surprised though that Bumiller is writing in the area of defense policy. And I could have lived without the obligatory quote from resident defense idiot Michael O’Hanlon. In any case, it is another piece which is redefining US adherence to the SOFA and what Obama meant by withdrawal.

I sort of remember be blasted by some for pointing out that Obama was reneging on his pledge to get us out of Iraq but he effectively is.

the 7 guys who were thinking about attacking Ft Dix were found guilty.

Since when “Conspiracy to Commit Darwinism” become a crime?

I sort of remember be blasted by some for pointing out that Obama was reneging on his pledge to get us out of Iraq

Now, now Hugh, don’t be thin-skinned. Obama’s not even inaugurated yet, and you’ve converted almost all the former Obama supporters already. Of course, with a lot of help from Obama!

I understand the continuing saga of Warren and read the posts. I also understand the outrage over this and agree with it. What I’d like to see are the connections Warren has with various organizations and what those organizations are all about. This is broader than Warren and his homophobic ideas. Using him as the whipping post doesn’t shine a light on the institutional aspects of his ideology. He’s not operating in a vacuum.

BTW, I had a brief contretemps with Samatha Powers at Netroots Nation, arguing that there was no way Obama would pull troops out of Iraq. She, of course, spewed the party line.

I heard one of my favorite takes on the Warren thing this AM from Stephanie Miller’s fill-ins, Frangela. Freakin hysterical!
http://frangela.com/about_us/index.html

They weren’t thrilled with the pick and dissed the O-man as only they can.

I agree that a lot of the Warren defense has been very simplistic even for this simpleton (me), but I do appreciate Al Giordano’s defense where he gives a nuanced view of the strategy behind it all.
http://narcosphere.narconews.c…..-exclusion

With so much stacked against Liberals right now, we need to pick our battles very wisely.

Guilty verdicts in Fort Dix terrorism case for all 5 defendants.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28351944/

Bravo for Barney! I wish more congressmen/women would speak up for more minorities, like the minority of workers who are union auto workers, black people, latin people, women, blue collar workers, you know the average american peoples that we all are. Instead congress can only agree on one thing, to give billions of dollars to millionaires.

oh, there were only 5 of them?

Brilliant.

A shopping mall, maybe? Nah, let’s go where everyone is armed.

Sometimes, the herd must be thinned.

BT – thanks, i was hoping there would be a post at fdl on warren that i could use to draw attention to a post i read this morning at the agonist: Rick Warren: The New National Preacher – He’s “Davos People”

here are some of the key points:

Taking a broader look at Warren and his rapid rise to prominence, however, the choice seems logical. Warren has been cultivated as the new Billy Graham, the right wing preacher who ratified the actions of the leaders that he blesses as God’s representative. Since the Eisenhower presidency, Graham legitimized every war and military incursion by “visiting” the White House, praying for the current president, and conferring “Godliness” on them. Graham would then go public after the prayer event and say kind things about the president, every president.

For years now, we’ve been absent the once familiar figure of spiritual bag man. Graham has taken his leave of public life and his son Franklin is too bitter for broad public consumption.

…Warren was installed as an international leader by the fun loving crowd at the World Economic Forum. His presence on the stage with world financial and political leaders was justified by his position as it was outlined in the Davos program.

Rick Warren
Author, Saddleback Church, USA
Philanthropist, theologian, and global strategist … Lecturer, Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard … Member: Council on Foreign Relations; Pacific Council on International Policy, Originator of global PEACE initiative to promote reconciliation, equip ethical leaders, assist poor, care for sick, and educate next generation … People Who Make America Great, Newsweek (2006) America’s Most Influential Pastor, The Economist (2007)

So Rick’s a made man, a key fixture in the world elite, and “the cooler” for a potentially rowdy constituency. He’s assuming that unofficial national role begun in 1952, the national preacher; an empty job to be filled shortly.

Why wouldn’t they pick him to warm up the crowd at the Inauguration? It’s his job.

lots more at the link.

powers is, imo, the most dangerous warmonger in obama’s circle.

Bigots of the same exact ilk as Warren used the Bible to defend slavery. Thousands of years of “tradition,” upended. Oh noes!

She, of course, spewed the party line.

LOL wish I had been there. She and Cass Sunstein deserve each other though why they have to be inflicted on the rest of us I don’t know. The idea now is I think simply to redefine what a withdrawal is and then say that is what they always meant.

Biden says, “we can’t be divided like we have been” as he’s forced to defend Obama’s bad judgement. In that spirit I’d like to know why the Grand Wizard of the KKK isn’t going to be on stage during the inauguration. Come on, we need to share the spotlight with every fringe hater in this nation in the name of national healing.

Mission accomplished.

Selise, I was worrying you were getting a lot of snow in the past couple of days, with that roof of yours. Everything ok?

Gonna keep saying this until it catches on, but unity is the most divisive force of all, because it forces people to do things they don’t want to do. The Warren pick is a perfect example of this. The people who think it’s a tragic decision are being ridiculed and pressured to conform.

Has Barney made his views known to the President-Elect and Senator Feinstein?

If the Congressman thinks there’s a reason for the invitation to be withdrawn, he should a) say so, and b) tell folks who matter. Not sure I’m seeing either of those here.

His membership in the Council on Foreign Relations says a lot.

We’ve been pressured to conform our whole gay lives, and we aren’t gonna start conforming over some obese hate-filled preacherman, I can assure you! *g*

Aha. Thanks for that. Warren as Billy Graham’s replacement is clearly what Obama has in mind. Makes much more sense than my suggestion in 4 of putting him on a blue ribbon panel.

Why give any credence to someone who calls 10% or more of the population the equivalent of goat abusers? Barack isn’t doing the gay community or the religious community any favors here.

This Rick Warren is a fundamentalist who preaches anti-Christ hate speech Not the loving inclusive message of Jesus the Christ Child whose birth we (symbolically) celebrate at this time of year.

Merry CHRISTmas to all!

This is broader than Warren and his homophobic ideas.

i agree.

was thinking about juan cole’s confusion (imo he’s confused with what i would call personality with character)… and how common that really is, especially in politics.

our politicians may suck at a great many things, good governance for example, but they are masters at convincing people how much they are really trying to do good and are really on our side (see pelosi, reid, etc). every time we get some song and dance along those lines alarm bells should be ringing – and warning of us the effect meeting warren had on juan cole

being taken in can happen to any of us. something, imo, to remember.

I’m not gonna conform either. But that’s exactly why “unity” is so divisive. If we were free to have our own opinions & go our own ways, we’d live together with much more harmony than if there’s a hectoring autocrat telling us how we must unify.

Put differently: there’s a lot of unity in dictatorships.

Divided, yes. Obama/Biden want to be “inclusive” so they end up being divisive by inviting a grotesque bigot(?!?!) Like Jane said, it would be more inclusive to have persons of different denominations and religions. I believe the Episcopalians have a gay bishop. I wonder if Obama would be so inclusive as to invite him.

(((mui1)))

thank you! i was worried last night with all the wind (i live at the top of hill to boot) – but so far so good. unfortunately both the insurance adjuster and the roofer have told me that permanent repairs should wait until spring (something about the temperature when the shingles are put down?). fingers crossed!

Just the snippet of the link you give, which I’ll read later, tells me this guy can be used as a spokesman for any number of organizations with an agenda. Graham was an unabashed warmonger, a “kill a g**k for Christ” kinda guy. There was a rift in the CFR during Viet Nam and the hawks pretty much won out. An open door at the WH for Warren has more implications than I’d like to think about.

It would be great to hear from NARAL and Planned Parenthood about the Rick Warren choice.

And B’Nai Brith and the Anti-Defamation League, since Pastor Rick™ tells Jews they are hellbound.

This is more than about the gays — is Barney Frank reaching out to other natural allies in this fight?

Keep us updated. I hope they have found a way for you to keep the house protected in insulated.
It dumped snow in CT on Friday, and then some throughout the weekend, and I thought of you and worried Mass was getting the same.

exactly. don’t think this is a one off – obama is introducing us to our new national preacher.

blech. don’t want a national preacher – not even one i like.

Also, where are all the folks who were outraged that Pat Robertson called for Chavez’s assassination? Pastor Rick™ agreed with Sean Hannity that the USA should kill the president of Iran. You know, the guy Obama wants to sit down with.

and it’s offensive to those of various denominations support their gay clergy.

I don’t know why these people are so f*cked up about Chavez. What did Chavez ever do to them?

unity as the opposite of solidarity? conformity instead of mutual support?

more blech.

friend of my neighbor’s did a temporary patch. think he did a good job.

Yep, and here’s Biden being the enforcer.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talk…..itatio.php

Since the Monroe Doctrine the US has considered Central and South America it’s territory. It supported dictators throughout the 20th century. Chavez, now Morales in Brasil and the leftist padre in Equador pose a dire threat to the US’s control of the area. They’re leftists. That’s all it takes.

I have not heard any talk of the Warren choice showing that Obama has a tin ear. At first I thought this was spin or oversight. But I think there is a logic to it. A tin ear indicates a mistake, something that a politician might not have done if they had understood the consequences. From this perspective, it is likely that this wasn’t Obama having a tin ear. It is a case of Obama doing exactly what he wanted to do.

I’m thinking that we progressives are going to have a really rough “relationship” with Obama. We are going to keep comparing Obama’s rhetoric to his actions, and his actions to their results, and early indications are that he is not going to like that one bit.

Back to work.

Namaste

Yes because we’re supposed to be a secular country, and not a “Christian Nation” and I don’t know what denomination Warren is, but I am getting sick of politicians rewarding the lunatic fringe.

He threatens US hedgemony south of the border. messing with people’s perceived power is a big no-no to the people who want to keep that power.

Well, yes. It was a rhetorical question. But I throw up my hands. Shouldn’t we be ashamed enough about what went down in Chile, or does the nutwing want to shame our country some more?

Just re-read the Juan Cole piece, trying to figure out why we’re supposed to like his new BFF. Social Gospel. Woo. Hoo. You mean Jesus was all about helping the poor and the dispossessed and the sick, etc.?

WHAT A BRAVE NEW IDEA!!!!

Let’s give the fatass megapreacher dude PROPS for sorta kinda doing what “Christians” should have been doing already. They’ve only had, you know, THOUSANDS of years to be known for their good works and shit.

Why is it surprising that Barney Frank objects to incest accusations? To equate the two is very offensive to any sensitive person, gay or straight. What two consenting adults do is none of my or anyone else’s business. Incest usually involves an adult in a position of power taking awful advantage of and therefore damaging a child in a position of no power. There is no similarity AT ALL. I think Obama goofed in a major way on the choice of Warren for the inaugurational honor. He tried to bring people together and alienated an important part of his base.

It has always been apparent that homophobes have a juvenile obsession with gay sex and refuse to acknowledge that there are other issues involved, such as the fundamental right of adults to form a pair-bond with anyone they choose.

These people are being obtuse butt heads. If Obama invited someone who had called for the assassination of the president of Israel, they’d have no problem understanding why progressives were upset. But he invited someone who, among other things, called for the assassination of the president of Iran, and that’s “reaching across the aisle to promote bi-partisan harmony.”

Now we add to that the fact that this particular invitee has not only called for the assassination of a head of state, but has insulted demeaned a vulnerable minority and has crusaded successfully for them to be deprived of the right to marry.

Fuck anyone who pretends that this is simply “reaching across the aisle.” They are being disingenuous and deliberately obtuse, and there behavior is an insult to anyone possessed of good sense. Yes, Joe and Barack, I’m talking to you guys.

I chalk it up to “I met Joe in a diner and he seemed like a really good guy” mentality. Just goes to show even a smart academic can be an idyot.

The tar strips on the shingles have to get warm enough so that they soften and adhere to the shingles in rows above and below them so that they won’t get blown off in a big wind and your roof will have a better seal against rain, snow, and moisture.

I think the “surprising development” is meant as a touch of sarcasm and snark.

Why can’t Obama withdraw Warren now that many with vested interests have pointed out what a bad choice he is given his history.

Just because a decision has been made shouldn’t mean Obama has to stick with this decision. That was the why Bush was called ‘The Decider’ since he was not very flexible and refused to change once a decision was made. For reference see the War in Iraq or many other numerous examples.

Does Obama really want to following this Bush practice?

Does Obama really want to following this Bush practice?

Rhetorical Q, right?

I think Obama goofed in a major way on the choice of Warren for the inaugurational honor. He tried to bring people together and alienated an important part of his base.

i don’t think it was a goof, more likely hugh’s explanation @42.

Shouldn’t we be ashamed enough about what went down in Chile

another rhetorical question? *g*

It’s another example of the meme spun about Bush, that he would be a good President because he was the kind of guy you would want to have a beer with. This was as silly and false as saying you wanted a clumsy surgeon to operate on you because he/she was a nice person, or asking a friendly bigot to speak at your Inauguration.

Google Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori (Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church), first woman to hold the office. Am pretty sure she is not gay but certainly does support the community. She spoke to the National Press Club on 12-16 iirc; if you have access to high speed you can probably find some good clips on-line. I only caught the last few minutes of the Q&A but from that *very* little bit, my first reaction was, “Why in the name of all that’s good and holy didn’t he ask her?”

Obama wouldn’t reverse himself on this issue lest he be viewed as yielding to agents of intolerance, aka his critics, aka us.

Yes, I saw a good bit of the Q&A. I loved the way she answered questions. Direct, short, no qualifiers or explanations. I think I heard her talk about her husband & family, so she’s not gay.

What a class act she is. Yes, she would have been a fantastic pick to do the invocation.

It is rhetorical.

However, people in positions of leadership/power do have a hard time backtracking on things once a decision has been made unless given good reason to change. Don’t want to be seen as too flip floppy. I think on this subject enough good reasons have been put out there.

Although Obama had no problem reversing himself to back the FISA Amendments Act. Of course we didn’t like that either. Wait, I think I am beginning to see a pattern here.

more like I forgot the rant marks.

If you do a Wikipedia, there is at least one gay bishop.

Repairs don’t *have* to wait but high temps help the gunk that’s on them seal better. That’s about as unprofessional an assessment as you’re gonna get, but after going thru shingle replacement on two roofs in recent years, that’s sure what lots of people (who know more than I) say about the subject.

Flip flops? Like, as Hugh said under your comment, FISA? Nope can’t do a flip flop. /s

I saw Jefferts Schori last year at our diocesan convention. She said that it looked like the only way out of our current political dilemma was “another revolution.” Our local priest thought she went too far when she said that there’s more than one path to God. I think she’d be great to deliver the invocation; much better than Tubby the Preacher.

AS Rachel Maddow noted, Barack Obama withdrew the invitation to another controversial preacher to give the invocation at his Springfield announcement event at the very last minute: Jeremiah Wright.

thanks. that makes sense. a friend of mine who had extensive roof damage from three(!) hurricanes in a row in 2004 (and couldn’t get her roof repaired for some time due to the lack of available roofers and materials) suggested putting some kind of moisture protection in the attic to protect the ceiling in case of any leaks until the permanent repair work is done. thought that sounded like a good idea.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

BTW, I heard a clip of Obama’s race speech recently. It contained the part about he could no more renouce Jeremiah Wright than he could renounce his grandmother.

Right before he renounced Jeremiah Wright.

Can’t have any flip flops.

Yes, like why could Obama “include” her or this bishop.

Southern Dragon @8:

I agree that we must not focus on Rick Warren’s statements about gay people. Here are a few additional doosies:

Warren has told Jews that they are damned to Hell.
He equates abortion with the Holocaust.
His PEACE initiative is a front for recruiting more dues-paying members for evangelical churches worldwide. First you join then you might get referrals to agencies and programs to help you with your problems, “problems” like poverty, lack of safe drinking water, etc. PEACE is at its core a tool to con desperate people into joining the church.
He’s supported Abstinence-only programs to combat AIDS. We know very clearly that these are not only ineffective but they lead to increased HIV infection rates. The prime reason is these programs make it impossible for NGO’s to distribute condoms or provide scientifically based sex education.
He believes that the ‘man’ must be the head of the family in order to keep “emotional” women from spinning their families out of control.
He claims that social justice supporters are “Marxist”. This is code. What he’s saying is that Christians, except his ilk, are radical extremists. He’s denying the path that Jesus set for his followers. The only thing remaining in his philosophy is a tarted-up version of self help.
He does not believe in evolution.

Where are the cries of dangerous from scientists?
Where are the cries of anger from mainline Christians?
Where are the cries of despair from international NGO’s?
Where are the cries of outrage from women?
Where are the cries of foul from Jews?

The reason might be this: Warren has accused Gays and Lesbians of crimes that are punishable by imprisonment. He’s done so in the immediate aftermath of 3 statewide initiatives that removed the right of Gays and Lesbians to protections for their families.

He claims to love Lesbians and Gays but his actions speak clearly. At the moment 3 lawsuits have been filed to rescind the marriage licenses of 18,000 people who were married in California.

Imagine yourself in the position of these families. You finally had the right to visit your partner in hospital. You finally could benefit from each others’ pensions and health insurance. Your children could remain with your partner if you died.

Will Rick Warren object to the lawsuits that would remove these protections? Will he speak up in public support of Civil Unions for Lesbian and Gay couples?

Don’t count on it. The man has no heart, only charisma – just like the best con-artists. And he despises more than just Lesbian and Gay people.

Lesbian, Gay, and Transgendered people have heard kind words from his ilk before, often from their family members and co-workers. It becomes easy for them to recognize the pathology.

There are a growing number of evangelical Christians who are open to reason and science. Rich Cizik is one example. He’s the genuine article – a Christian (although he has a distance to go when it comes to women being equal to men).

Rick Warren’s actions indicate that he has miles to go. He seems to be heading in the opposite direction while avoiding accountability.

Edit: why couldn’t Obama “include” a gay or woman bishop?

Oh, spit! leave it to Hugh for the spot-on answer to the shingle business. That’s what I get for jumping into a thread without catching up on *all* the comments. *G*

(((Waccamaw))) appreciate all the advice and help i can get.

My reaction exactly; scary smart she seems….and apparently has put the knickers of the right wing of the denomination into a major twist.

Now Tubby the Preacher isn’t one of those guys who like neon lights and all the big trappings, is he?

However, people in positions of leadership/power do have a hard time backtracking on things once a decision has been made unless given good reason to change.

Obama had to problem doing a 180 in his position on telcom immunity and on success of the surge. I’m expecting him to back off his assertion to Will Bunch that he’d prosecute any serious crimes committeed by the prior administrations. I expect his support for Palestinians’ right will soon disappear if it hasn’t already.

And in his case, he’ll not even acknowledge that he has changed. “Who’re you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?”

He’s supported Abstinence-only programs to combat AIDS. We know very clearly that these are not only ineffective but they lead to increased HIV infection rates. The prime reason is these programs make it impossible for NGO’s to distribute condoms or provide scientifically based sex education.

I think abstinence-only (no condoms, no education) is somewhat genocidal.

Wish I could offer more help. But I got a car, and some nails and a hammer?

He believes that the ‘man’ must be the head of the family in order to keep “emotional” women from spinning their families out of control.

Figures. Usually when a “religious” political sort is homophobic, misogyny follows. That at least has been my observation.

LOL! i’m good for now, but it’s a long time to spring.

Next Mass/Tristate area meetup at Selise’s house. Bring hammer and nails. And loud music.
It would be fun.

Well, since I didn’t learn my lesson the first time…….*g*

Don’t know anything about what might be available to go *inside* the roof right now but, when you start to have it done permanently (or as permanently as roofing can be) (and depending on what your budget looks like), you might want to ask about what else can be added immediately under the shingles. Can’t remember the name of the stuff but it came in wide, flexible rolls that the roofers laid on top of the plywood roof…and then they put down the shingles. This will only work if you’re removing the old shingles before putting down the new ones. This is on a beach house and when we have a ‘cane come thru, it can take forever to get hold of reputable roofers. This material is supposed to give you a bit of breathing space and weather protection (rain) before repairing the roof.

I forget what it’s called too, but my contracter put it on my new garage roof this past summer.

Invocation and benediction are religious ceremonies. I wonder why the protest doesn’t move past the selection and focus instead on why government property, and a secular office induction, are being used for for religious purposes in the first place. I understand there are plenty of churches in the DC area, so it shouldn’t be a problem booking one for post-inaugural religious ceremonies.

Sadly, however, Warren’s selection proves that you can still say whatever the hell you want about gays and it just gets chalked up as a “disagreement.”

In this case it was a disagreement. You expect him to say something different when he is against homosexuals marrying?

Excuse me, but if Warren had made similar remarks about interracial marriage

Also, real cute how you tried to link the two items, although you kind of struck out. Maybe you should try to attack black’s in general for being against homosexual marriage.

Guess you can say the same thing about homosexuals being married as well. Marriage in itself is a religious ceremony, in which most religions do not recognize homosexuality. Makes a good case for civil unions if you think about it.

If I had kept up-to-date with putting all records about house repairs in a three-ring notebook, I could look it up in a tick….maybe one of those “time to get back to that” projects for the winter.

Actually there is a civil entity called “marriage” that confers a large number of civil rights and requires a state-issued license to be considered legal.

Because it is a state sanctioned entity that confers specific rights, is what the entire issue has been about. By limiting it to the union of a man and a woman, it blocks those state offered rights and is therefore discriminatory

I think you’re missing the point. Warren can say what he wants to his little congregation of bigots. It’s another thing alltogether for Obama to seem to sanction his statements on Jews, gays women etc. in the name of “inclusiveness” which is really divisiveness, because I sure as hell don’t want to watch that man speak. It’s a waay sour note to begin on. If Obama was being fair he would include a member of a denomination or religion that supports gays or has gay clergy, and there are some. Scroll above. On that note, he should also include a woman and a rabbi, and a muslim cleric as well. Waccamaw came up with at least one good option.

Of course, because these people – Obama and Feinstein – have staff who will see to it that Frank’s sentiments are run by them (even if they don’t acknowledge same).

Frank was great talking to Andrea Mitchell this morning. Most of their discussion was about the administration of TARP (Frank of course holds the Congress harmless, but I don’t).

Then Mitchell asked him about Rick Warren. Frank repeated what he’s said elsewhere; then said he thought Obama was kidding himself with this idea that kissing up to conservatives with stunts like the Rick Warren overture could somehow charm Republicans into working with him when they wouldn’t even go along with their own Republican President. Frank said he personally was suffering from post-partisan depression. Video on http://www.RealityChex.com

If you do a Wikipedia, there is at least one gay bishop.

How many are there if I don’t “do a Wikipedia”?

Organized religions seem to think they have the copyright on “marriage”. “Gay” people used to only be happy. Perhaps all this is an issue that can be solved by a new word or adoption of an existing word? Could we perhaps say that a gay couple who enter into a union are “Warrened”? We just need states to issue Warren licenses, but for all civil unions, and then we can all move on to solving other problems, like why it gets dark at night.