Really? Could someone explain this to me? Here’s the puzzle: as we saw last week, Gen. Odierno is making statements about breaking the SOFA by keeping troops in Iraqi cities past June and also suggesting that the date for full withdrawal is really not so final (as in his “three years is a long time” hint) – and Gates, who met with him right after that statement, did not slap him down.
In fact, rather than backing away from his earlier statements, today Odierno announced that "US troops will move into southern Iraq early next year to replace departing British forces." He's also hinting at an awfully big role for the US in Iraq's upcoming provincial elections:
"So we have to make sure in the election those who didn't win understand that, and we will be able to seat the new government properly," Odierno, the overall commander of U.S. and allied forces in Iraq, told AP late Saturday. "And once we get to that point, it's now time for us to take a look at what is right for the future."
There's more but I’ll get to that in a minute - here’s what puzzles me: While I oppose the SOFA since it gives legal cover for the occupation, the US and the Green Zone did sign it (that’s what Bush was doing on his little shoe target trip) and the SOFA says we have to get out. Bush and crew would clearly like the US to manage to turn Iraq into a permanent, oil revenue rich American colony but why – really why –does the military want to stay so bad?
Here’s the more complete story thanks to Gareth Porter’s important analysis at IPS: He begins by discussing how Gates, Mullen, Petraeus and Odierno are taking this further: (emph. added)
U.S. military leaders and Pentagon officials have made it clear through public statements and deliberately leaked stories in recent weeks that they plan to violate a central provision of the U.S.-Iraq withdrawal agreement requiring the complete withdrawal of all U.S. combat troops from Iraqi cities by mid-2009 by reclassifying combat troops as support troops.
The scheme to engage in chicanery in labeling U.S. troops represents both open defiance of an agreement which the U.S. military has never accepted and a way of blocking President-elect Barack Obama's proposed plan for withdrawal of all U.S. combat troops from Iraq within 16 months of his taking office.
He goes on to note:
The New York Times first revealed that "Pentagon planners" were proposing the "relabeling" of U.S. combat units as "training and support" units in a Dec. 4 story. The Times story also revealed that Pentagon planners were projecting that as many as 70,000 U.S. troops would be maintained in Iraq "for a substantial time even beyond 2011", despite the agreement's explicit requirement that all U.S. troops would have to be withdrawn by then.
And he points out that Gates is apparently right in the thick of this plot:
Further evidence emerged last week that Gates is a central figure in that effort. In a Washington Post column Dec. 11, George Will quoted Gates as saying that there is bipartisan congressional support for "a long-term residual presence" of as many as 40,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, and such a presence for "decades" has been the standard practice fol lowing "major U.S. military operations" since the beginning of the Cold War.
So what’s the story? We know the Iraqis want us out - and they have just refused to approve any extension for troops from the UK and other countries. Any fair referendum in Iraq is most likely to do the same - and any extension of the occupation will draw intensified attacks from Iraqi nationalist forces. It's not like Gates and crew won't have a war to fight - in fact, the latest reports are that they are speeding up the deployment of US forces to Afghanistan. So why would US generals be so insistent on a longer occupation?
And more importantly, what is Obama going to do about it - and what are we going to do to make certain Obama knows we expect a full withdrawal – preferably starting yesterday.
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Thank you Siun.
And in other news: al Zaidi’s brother confirms he’s been tortured.
Hey Laura,
I’ve been collecting the latest Al Zaida stories - there’s a bit of confusion which is not surprising but I hope to do an update for tomorrow. Raed is asking folks to contact ICRC and I think that’s a very good idea.
Yes, I do too. I posted the addresses he gave in the Oxdown diary.
Obama will face a primary from the left if there are combat troops in Irak after 2011. Perhaps Democrats will finally start to listen to Dennis Kucinich?
And Odierno needs to be recalled right now. It would be best if Obama had Gates do so before 1/20/09. He’s making policy, and generals mustn’t make policy. He wants more war, his war, everywar. Sorry, baldie. You go entertain W in Texas, okay?
Thank you, Siun.
Big duh coming…
Generals pushing/running policy Constitutionally reserved for civilian authority.
Either Gates is giving Obama cover to fudge his stated withdrawal policy, or some Pentagon types are going to be very surprised to find out that they do not in fact run the country.
If one of his advisors points out to Obama that the possibly neo-con leaning generals such as Odierno and Petraeus are punking him on the Iraq withdrawal, they may find themselves relieved of command. Reason: Obama will never be reelected if he’s seen as weak and kowtowing to any neo-con/PNAC principles as the progressive would create such an uproar that the Dem party would be divided and disenheartened.
Dugg right here! Please join me.
I wonder if ‘the plan’ involves an unstated distribution of military presence heavily weighted for the northern Kurdish region of Iraq - where there’s oil, for one, and locals who are a lot more tolerant of US presence for their safety.
The Gates history is not one of total honesty. What’s up with the SOFA being blown off from the get-go? Is Obama just waiting til his time is here? We want out and the Iraq people want us out. America, as said, has become addicted to war. Maybe still seeking the thrill of WW II. Where the hell are the peacemakers?
So, the step is made from run of the mill executive-level mendacity and malfeasance to a threat of willful disobedience by the military, if not a sub rosa threat of coup?
Interesting. Let us hope the curtain will part further on this enterprise.
This is just another snake pit that needs to be cleaned out but will it be? I want ever officer that puts god, family, and then country fired.
Will O fire people like king g did to get us in to this mess? I’m all for the g&a going bye-bye and bring back the ones that didn’t want to race off into this. Won’t Happen is my bet and I hope I’m wrong.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.
Hey, Siun, your Diggs are showin’ up!
Agreed, of course. Hard to believe Obama isn’t in very intensive communication with his SecDef-to-be. If Gates is seeing Odierno run US foreign policy/Iraq occupation policy and isn’t torqued, I find that interesting for a number of reasons.
Sure sounds like it to me Darkblack!
I think war crimes trials might be a sobering influence on those generals who are addicted to the smell of blood, as well as their neo-con masters. The German attack on Poland of September, 1939 is still the best fit historically for the US attack on Iraq, and Nuremberg set powerful precedents.
Wes Clark concern trolled the hell out of Democrats in todays WAPO.
And I’m with Teddy.. Odierno is making policy, and for that alone he must go.
It’s a miracle Teddy - perhaps you have the magic touch!
I sure find it astonishing that a General would not only do what Odierno’s doing but be so brazen in talking about it.
Our local paper had a very big piece on the Bush Legacy today….hugh failure, of course. I think it was sourced from the Post. Part of the emphasis was that W had alienated the Middle East leaders who should be our friends and empowered those who are our opponents….heckava job, W.
He’s probably been doing ot for years, but this time the reporters put it to print.
Didn’t Ricks suggest in Fiasco that Odierno was in on the early torture orders in Iraq?
fine, if these generals want to stay in Iraq, let ‘em stay. We’re pulling out their troops and cutting off their funding ;-P
It’s entirely possible that Obama thinks he won’t be relected if he does not prove he has balls, and/or if some U.S. troops are withdrawn and Iraq re-erupts into chaos.
From the General: “So we have to make sure in the election those who didn’t win understand that, and we will be able to seat the new government properly.”
Um, General Odienro? Last month, we had an election of our own back here in the US. Those who didn’t win need to understand that.
I was about to comment to that effect. Whether Obama has secretly signed on or Odierno is a rogue general, I have trouble imagining why he (and the others) are discussing their plans publicly. Time for these guys to go the route of MacArthur, in my opinion.
Heh. I got Clark’s measure about a year or so ago when he was on his book tour. You might remember that I was admonished for not being polite to the guest, when all I did was ask him if he were proud of bombing Serbia.
Clark is the poster boy for the militarization of the Ds.
I managed to get close to doing the same when he was here for a book salon.. He scurried away without acknowledging a single tough question.
I wasn’t impressed with Clark’s latest - it struck me as similar to some of the talk that Obama and the Ds need to be nicer to the Intel folks … both Intel and Mil have to learn once again that we have a civilian government.
Hillary (also) did everything possible to bolster her defense credentials in preparation for her presidential bid. I won’t believe Dems are serious about reining in the military until they do it.
I was taken to the woodshed on that very same book salon.
The fact that such breezily brazen chatter of these things is done in public by the culpable parties opens up a series of unpalatable alternatives, does it not, Siun?
Certainly, the long-range plans (whatever they might be) must be in an advanced state of readiness…And perhaps they feel that a mere President, elected via a populist wave that owed as much to contempt for the past as hope for the future, is not enough to forestall them.
Where have you gone, Dwight D. Eisenhower?
;>)
What makes you think the U.S. has a civilian govt? The U.S. is the classic case of the cliche that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The U.S. hammer is its military, and both parties are only to eager to use it for whatever real or imagined problem exists, regardless of whether it would be the most productive approach to the problem. I think that does not sound a bit like a civilian govt.
I also looooove his “I ain’t talkin’ to no transition peeps” rag. Like the other folks in other departments are silly to do so. And hasn’t Odierno noticed that his direct civilian management isn’t changing?
I think it’s a dare Obama should take: fire Odierno, buck Petraeus back to the Green Zone, and let him sort out the withdrawal.
I used to think that Hillary was doing that to show she had balls, but I’m in the process of thinking I might change my mind. Perhaps she really meant it.
Great question. Why are we always being reminded of the MIC and then always ignoring the reminder?
Is there another word for women’s courage?
Unfortunately, what we have is a civilian mouthpiece for corporate interests, the largest and most powerful being (or having ties to) the defense industry.
Yes. Heart.
Well, I’m listening to an audio version of Molly Ivins’ Who Let the Dogs In, a collection of columns that start during Bush I. At some point she cites a high complement from a GOB (Good Ole Boy): Ma’am, you got huevos.
Yep.
Not applicable in this context. We were referring to Hillary bolstering the perception that she is a militarist.
It would be irresponsible for me not to speculate.
Fear. Greed. The overweening desire to ‘maintain the fiction’, as a California congressman once said.
And the sense that the Abyss is near, and they must ‘get their kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames’, as an erotic politician once stated.
;>)
And as for Odierno et al, I think you should take them at their words. The U.S. has no intention of living up to the SOFA. There is a long history of the U.S. abrogating treaties. I think Obama has probably already signed off on it. That, and contempt for Iraqis combine to make them foolish enough to outloud the plan.
Agreed - and the Iraqis expect no less. I guess I’m always suprised when the PTB don’t even maintain the pretence.
And I still wonder what is actually in it for them - Iraq is a loss and they know they will not ever win it. I’d think they’d welcome the chance to get out under the pretence of victory with the SOFA and then just head over to repeat the same mistakes in Afghanistan.
War is good business. As Krugman apparently loves to point out, a huge public works project called World War II is what got us out of the Depression. Besides the construction industry the war industry and what’s left of the auto industry are pretty much all the manufacturing we. In addition to infrastructure projects how many jobs tied to govt contracts overseas (read conflict areas) will any economic recovery plan provide for?
edit - manufacturing we have.
Good business for the war profiteers. For the taxpayers… not so much.
perfectly legit question, and still one of my favorites
PTB=powers that be?
I think the U.S. long ago stopped thinking about foreign policy as what’s in it for the U.S. My guess is that the thinking is backwards. U.S. is powerful, so whatever the country does must be in the interest of the country. So if the power structure thinks U.S. military control of Iraq is needed, that automatically makes it in the U.S. interest. A tautology.
If you could get one of them in a quiet room for 20-30 hours (I’m thinking of the Frost-Nixon interviews) they would eventually probably give you some story about U.S. energy security. But I’m not sure their thinking is even that clear.
We, the taxpayers, don’t count. We just have to pay for it.
As usual, Friedman has a moderate command of the obvious. *g*
the grand chessboard. must be Very Serious to play
I obviously revel in my notoriety, as I raise it on any flimsy excuse.
At times I think his column as an explanation to a servant as to how the world really operates, thinking the servant is as narrow as he is.
I like the way you put that. Friedman always carries a condescending tone that I’d not heard articulated before. Thanks.
Dang, I’m late for a Siun thread…8-(
I was busy writing this…! ;-)
Amen Siun! ;-)
We need a lot of help from the Iraki people. A lot of help.
Somebody posted this link to an online civics test a few weeks back. If I recall the results summary correctly, Americans taking the test average around 40-45 percent correct. Elected officials average 5-8 points lower.
With that in mind, I suspect any of our leaders who can envision likely consequences from their policies (domestic or foreign) represent infrequent deviations from the norm.
re clark. does say much for his courage if a few non softball questions frightened him off.
Will Maliki be the U.S. dictator-in-charge?
Heh. I got 2 or 3 wrong, and everyone else here did about the same. Guess that’s why we’re smarter than our betters, but also explains why we could never get elected to anything.
I expect no less from the U.S. military. If they can’t kill us off with their big weapons, they are powerless.
I’d not advise anyone to turn their back to Clark.
I think at this point, from all we’ve witnessed of the dem’s actions as a minority and a majority in Congress over the past 8 years (and more) we can assume they’ve all bought by and bought in to the same MIC and big biz paradigm as the ReThugs.
And I think we can assume they’ve been bought, paid for and elected to serve those exact constituents.
I’m also beginning to think that Obama is yet another member of the same Dem Party that Congress is bought by . . . but I’m hopin for different.
Congress is obviously in it for the War Machine and the money it brings.
So that leaves our PE as the only cog in the machine that might slow the wheels of economic facism at home or abroad. And I’m not so sure I see that happening soon, either. Sigh.
More merlot, please. And turn up the fiddles and banjo’s please, the barbarians at the gates are making SUCH an awful racket.
I also missed two (pats self on back). Not too bad for a 3rd grade education.
Well, their first choice, Chalabi, didn’t work out so well. Maliki is all they’ve got left and that’s tenuous at best, imo. Maliki needs the US to ensure his stay as PM. If we leave I can envision him in the role of Pasha Gordon.
I like your thoughts in this thread, but this one I’ll offer your posit is only flipped in the wrong order.
The military is using and controlling the so-called civilian government.
It and the MIC and big biz have been doing so for a long time now, thru MANY administrations . . . . doncha think, goin back to at LEAST Vietnam if not earlier?
Better’n me. I missed 3.
Further thoughts about the U.S. military. They are so expecting the “thank you for your service” response that they have no idea how to react to another POV. Even when it’s a question requiring nothing more than a simple answer. It’s just another example of how embedded the militarist impetus is here.
Clark could have responded to my challenge easily: I regret the necessity of bombing Serbia, but the information we had at the time indicated that was necessary, or whatever. Clark wasn’t even alert enough to do the minimum.
Heh, I was the one that posted it… *sigh* I missed four…! 8-P
You do realize that puts most of us into the 90 percentile. That’s 40 points higher than politicians. That’s f*kin’ scary.
So what’s your real education? Only truthful self-deprecation allowed here. (Oh, and don’t admonish me for trying to impose my rules on FDL, y’all. Just relax and enjoy the interchange.)
My n key seems to be behaving erratically, except when I type a sentence that calls it out. So scuse any missing ns that I don’t see before hitting submit.
I think the last 8 or so questions, the ones that asked what different clauses or statemens meant, had a right wing bias, designed to thwart left thinking folks. *g*
That’s exactly what I was getting at in my 43.
Ooops. My 63, not 43.
The Puritan Q’s and the Keynes’ ideological Q’s, at least…! ;-)
It IS scary.
I think it was on the same day that the SOFA was announced that Odierno started backtracking on it. As I have often said, Odierno is an idiot. He is a Pattonesque general. He is not one you want within a million miles of a political or diplomatic situation. He is just about the worse general I can think of to manage a withdrawal.
But even more important for me is that Obama and Biden have been doing considerable backtracking of their own. The salient feature of Obama’s Iraq policy was a 16 month withdrawal. Nowadays the 16 month number either doesn’t get mentioned at all or is heavily caveated. For instance, Obama was promising to withdraw one combat brigade a month. We have 16 combat brigades in Iraq, but what doesn’t get talked about is that this represents only 50,000-60,000 US troops. There are besides these (depending on how you count them) some 25-35 brigade equivalents or some 90,000-100,000 other soldiers in theatre. Nothing as been said about them. Obama has left open of late the idea of a residual force that has ballooned recently into the current numbers we are seeing of 50,000+.
What this tells me is just as during the Bush years we had no coherent Iraq strategy, Obama is promising more of the same. It is not that difficult to announce that it is US policy to leave Iraq and to do so within 16 months, period. The reason we are not hearing this is precisely because it is not Obama’s policy. And let’s be clear 16 months is a long timeline. It is as far from precipitate as you can get. Yet Obama-Biden are waffling like crazy on it.
Nobody is leaving a comment…! 8-(
Now that Keynes is coming back into fashion I’m gonna hafta read him. At the National Press Club Friday Krugman said that he was pure Keynesian.
From the outset, I was fundamentally alienated from the institutional structures of society. Somehow managed to finish high school despite that. Owe what little I know to the fact that from third grade on, I was a voracious reader, although I rarely read what my instructors intended.
You, Siun, Ratfood, DB and more than a few others are now saying out loud what it is . . . Good to see many people on the same page and getting it out loud in full.
We live in a country where the military and the elite 1% elect and control the civilian government, and have DONE so, for a long time.
When that is put first before ANY other issues, it explains them all.
It’s that Razor Thang.
So if Obama’s bought and signed off on it all, already, where what and how do the masses take it to, next?
After all, electing people isn’t making much of a difference, is it.
I’m gonna read it in the morning. Keep yer shirt on. *g* Gettin’ real close to tree climbin’ time. Gotta go back to the cesspool in the mornin’. The kids are out of school but I ain’t. Jealous.
Laughing … well done! I was told in high school that I read too much to get into college - they were right (sorta - got in several times, found reading more useful)
I knew I could count on ya, eventually! *g*
To be Keynesian nowadays I suppose translates into being for a big stimulus package. While this is needed, if we don’t get the banking system correctly reformed and recapitalized (and I don’t see that short of nationalization), the stimulus will stall. We need a complete coordinated strategy not more piecemeal stuff as we have seen with Paulson and Bernanke.
The only things I was good at in high school was history, civics and English. Terrible at math, although I’ve come a long way with that. Forget about science until I got older and got interested in astromony, which led to all kinds of things. Consumate dilettante he is.
Thanks for the explanation.
I hated every school I ever went to, except high school, where I had a group of like-minded friends.
Turns out I’m an autodidact, and so are you from your explanation. I suspect a lot of frequent commenters here are the same. Our formal education levels may vary (my highest is ABD), but our learning methods are the same.
I usually read the textbooks, I just couldn’t bear to plod through them with the rest of the class. One of the few (inadvertently) smart things I did was take two semesters of typing in high school. My motivation was the belief that it would be a couple easy credits but the experience has served me well.
“And I still wonder what is actually in it for them”
I think they, the 1%, want the whole planet. All of it.
And unless we go offplanet, once they get all of Terra Firma, THAT’S gonna ask the final question.
Once they have it all, what will it be, and what will they do with it?
I’m finding some irony in that our Continental Unity is not only why we really haven’t been attacked (9/11 was a skirmish, not an attack or war that threatened our unity) at large, but it’s likely also the reason we will fail as an empire and the 1% won’t be able to pull it off . . .
We can’t afford to extend ourselves beyond our shores economically.
We CAN threaten to drop nukes, and bomb them all back to the stone ages, but we can’t afford to invade and rule abroad.
And if we drop nukes, we all die in the long or short run, anyways so it don’t really matter.
Nope, the 1% is screwed, one way or another . . . but they keep pushing the edges, they don’t know their limits. And there are always limits on empire, as history has shown.
My take? They is Greedy and stupid as shit. And they will take us and themselves out before we boomers die of natural causes between now and 2030.
And if there IS a world after then, and the US Military and the US 1% owns it, it won’t be worth living in, anyways, and it will be doomed at SOME point by its own hand.
It will be interesting to see how Obama works out in an almost impossible environment when he also turns his back on those who elected him. (That’s still a forecast. Lotsa evidence already, but not proved yet.) I have no idea how the masses will respond. Beaten down by the economy, it’s possible you will hear nary a whimper.
Ha. See, I knew that there were many autodidacts here.
LOL. My dad and I had a real go round over typing. I wasn’t gonna be in a class with all girls. ewwwwww. One of the things he said to me was that if I knew how to type I’d always be able to get a job. In those days, late 50s, that was true. I was not the only guy in the class and had a great time.
has there been any equivalent waffling on the afghanistan escalation?
I shouldn’t have attributed all of my meager knowledge to reading, experience in the workplace also played an important part.
My mother, the typical (not) housewife/mother until I was 11 (the 3d of 3 kids, with the oldest 10 years older than me), went back to work in secretarial type jobs. She worked her way up from there, but her secretarial orientation insisted that I learn how to touch type at an early age on a manual typewriter. Who could have anticipated how valuable that would turn out to be?
wish i could think of a reason to disagree with you. can’t though. :(
From wiki
Righto. Not to leave out experience. But we are focusing on the methodology of learning really new stuff.
It was probably ten years before I started using the skill on a daily basis but for the past twenty it has really been useful. Unfortunately, R.A. is destroying my hands (had to quit playing guitar) but to date, my ability to type is unaffected.
Lots of reasons to concur with that. Among which are the theories that public education during the 20th C was oriented to produce mfg production workers, in the sense of following the leader. Because school was so unfriendly to my son, who had minor learning disabilities, I delved into the subject in prior years. Also have twin neices who teach in NYC public schools, who are always current on education theory.
I’d love to arm wrestle Caroline on education theory. One of those nieces thinks she is completely uninterested in education policy, just fundraised for NYC public schools from friends. (They’re not publicizing how much and I haven’t tried to find out.)
Obama-Biden have been very consistent on an Afghanistan escalation.
that says a lot to me about their priorites: escalation in afghanistan is much more important than drawdown in iraq.
don’t know where the troops or money is going to come from for this though.
Time to climb into my tree.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
See ya. Windchill here is -24. Think it’s time for me to go into hibernation mode.
Probably about three to four of the combat brigades that would have gone to Iraq will get redirected to Afghanistan.
I should add that the talk I have heard is an increase of 30,000 in US troops. I would expect about a third of these to be combat brigades (hence the 3-4) and the remaining 20,000 or so to be support troops.
Troops are troops. Either they stay or they leave as promised by Obama.
Who are the unnamed Pentagon folk repeatedly referred to in Siun’s quotes? I expect the vocal general would be taking direction from within that department which in turns reports to the President who in turn reports to Darth Deadeye, an alleged person who lives inside a mountain of no fixed abode.
Nope, the B’aathist’s and a group of others backed by the USA spooks are gonna take him down and put up another one more willing to endorse our overlordship as we duel the Shia factins and China and Russia for power and control in the region.
We’ve been doing this stuff for a long time . . . mostly info about it has been controlled fairly well in USA for ever, too . . . but then Al Gore went and did the toobz and, well, all our previe black ops and interventions are now public info for any yahoo with a dial up . . . talk about yer mass media at yer fingertips.
Now word’s out about our egressittudes . . . who KNOWS where it all goes from here. *G*
thanks.
Due to my increased learning curve from cradle to 55, I continue to bounce from incredible moments of joy and hopetitude to the darkest despairs of what history has proven to show me about the nature of the species and it’s record when the species organizes and forms groups.
And I still hope, at times . . . go figger. ;-)
Plan for the worst, hope for the better . . . take what’s given, fight for what ya want. *G*
Sadly, yer likely spot on given what the past shows us about human behavior.
Who knows, maybe it will be different this time.
This DOES seem to be one of them moments in time . . . a pivot in the pendulum of history . . . hard to tell if the pendulum will tic, or toc, huh.
Thanks for the comments and thoughts . .
We will be sucked into the black hole of that region and die like all others from Alexander to The USSR. Our supply routes are already being exposed for the weak link they are (Steve Gilliard).
It will be our swan song . . . and the only other alternative will be us using our nukes . . . which will pretty much ruin shit as we know it when we do.
Afghan Escalation is just pure foolhardy.
And if it weren’t for oil and gas resources, pipelines and distribution routes we wouldn’t care one damn bit.
We can’t sustain LONG TERM interventions beyond our continental shores.
And History Zez, It’s Been Proven To Be A Loser, To Try.
But we’re Waist Deep In The Big Muddy. And the Big Phools Say To Push On.
I was SO hoping Obama was not gonna be one of the m Big Phools . . . but alas, I think even if he’s not he’s outnumbered, outflanked, and outgunned.
More merlot, anyone? . . . and call the fiddler’s around, I just changed strings on the dobro. Time to make a joyful noise . . . Even I tire of the sad I weave . . .