Comments on: Lord Of The Flies In Post-Katrina Lousiana http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/ Firedoglake weblog Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:01:44 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Trickster http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767520 Trickster Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:53:01 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767520 <p>I’m not at all saying nobody, anywhere knew there was reason to be concerned about the integrity of the levees, I’m saying that the official word was that the levees were good to withstand a storm of that strength in that location, and that’s what would’ve been reported to the President. It’s, again, fabulously keen-visioned hindsight to posit that the President should or even could have known about the concerns a few individuals had over some levees in a Southern state before those levees actually failed.</p> <p>You serve your cause poorly when you support it with over-the-top falsehoods. Maybe it stokes up those who are already most firmly on your side, but undecided folks are turned off by your statements and turned away from your positions.</p> <p>It saddens me to see that not one single person in this long thread, before I jumped in, had said a word about the article’s opening sentence, which is not only badly inaccurate but badly inaccurate in a very personal way and in a way that goes against our common value of innocence until guilt is proven. Not only is it not “proven” that Bush “stood by and let hundreds of black people drown,” there is not even any evidence for that, and it is almost certainly false. Yet when I point it out, all that happens is that people attack me - although not by really taking on what I say, but rather by pointing out irrelevancies such as other individuals expressing earlier worries about the levees, etc., or Bush making a policy choice to de-fund ACE programs. Those arguments bear no weight at all in terms of showing that Bush knew people were drowning and purposefully allowed it to happen.</p> <p>Bush truly committed hundreds if not thousands of terrible misdeeds during his Presidency, and his response to Katrina was just God-awful. Attack him with the truth and you will hurt him. Attack him with lies and you help him by building sympathy for him, while hurting your own cause.</p> I’m not at all saying nobody, anywhere knew there was reason to be concerned about the integrity of the levees, I’m saying that the official word was that the levees were good to withstand a storm of that strength in that location, and that’s what would’ve been reported to the President. It’s, again, fabulously keen-visioned hindsight to posit that the President should or even could have known about the concerns a few individuals had over some levees in a Southern state before those levees actually failed.

You serve your cause poorly when you support it with over-the-top falsehoods. Maybe it stokes up those who are already most firmly on your side, but undecided folks are turned off by your statements and turned away from your positions.

It saddens me to see that not one single person in this long thread, before I jumped in, had said a word about the article’s opening sentence, which is not only badly inaccurate but badly inaccurate in a very personal way and in a way that goes against our common value of innocence until guilt is proven. Not only is it not “proven” that Bush “stood by and let hundreds of black people drown,” there is not even any evidence for that, and it is almost certainly false. Yet when I point it out, all that happens is that people attack me – although not by really taking on what I say, but rather by pointing out irrelevancies such as other individuals expressing earlier worries about the levees, etc., or Bush making a policy choice to de-fund ACE programs. Those arguments bear no weight at all in terms of showing that Bush knew people were drowning and purposefully allowed it to happen.

Bush truly committed hundreds if not thousands of terrible misdeeds during his Presidency, and his response to Katrina was just God-awful. Attack him with the truth and you will hurt him. Attack him with lies and you help him by building sympathy for him, while hurting your own cause.

]]> By: RevBev http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767281 RevBev Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:18:47 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767281 <p>In case you come back, there had been major reportage on the inadequacy of the levees; there had also been a lawsuit when one of the contractors wanted to quit building because it was apparent that the specifications were not adequate in the constuction. Could he say Katrina? No. Were the risks and dangers and even sloppy work known? You betcha.</p> In case you come back, there had been major reportage on the inadequacy of the levees; there had also been a lawsuit when one of the contractors wanted to quit building because it was apparent that the specifications were not adequate in the constuction. Could he say Katrina? No. Were the risks and dangers and even sloppy work known? You betcha.

]]> By: pluege http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767188 pluege Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:47:18 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767188 <p>Protection against “Tyranny of the Majority” is a fundamental US Constitutional principle. It is why:</p> <p> * the Senate exists<br /> * the Government can not establish a religion<br /> * it takes agreement of 3/4 of the states - better than a super majority, to amend the US Constitution<br /> * Blacks were given full voting status and women were given the right to vote<br /> * its explicitly illegal in most situations to discriminate based on race, religion, or gender.</p> <p>Now all we have to do is add sexual orientation to the list of illegal causes of discrimination - something that would be completely consistent with the Constitutional concept of protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority, whereas the opposite, e.g., proposition 8 is contrary to the Constitution.</p> <p>What Jerry Brown is attempting IS protecting and adhering to the Constitution. What a simple majority of California voters did by passing proposition 8, is NOT.</p> Protection against “Tyranny of the Majority” is a fundamental US Constitutional principle. It is why:

* the Senate exists
* the Government can not establish a religion
* it takes agreement of 3/4 of the states – better than a super majority, to amend the US Constitution
* Blacks were given full voting status and women were given the right to vote
* its explicitly illegal in most situations to discriminate based on race, religion, or gender.

Now all we have to do is add sexual orientation to the list of illegal causes of discrimination – something that would be completely consistent with the Constitutional concept of protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority, whereas the opposite, e.g., proposition 8 is contrary to the Constitution.

What Jerry Brown is attempting IS protecting and adhering to the Constitution. What a simple majority of California voters did by passing proposition 8, is NOT.

]]> By: pdaly http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767136 pdaly Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:37:31 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767136 <p>Sad.</p> <p>Right after New Orleans flooded, Condi was shopping for shoes while blacks were being murdered and abandoned in New Orleans. Not a peep from Condi at that time.</p> <p>And not a peep from Condi now about any of this Katrina postmortem.</p> Sad.

Right after New Orleans flooded, Condi was shopping for shoes while blacks were being murdered and abandoned in New Orleans. Not a peep from Condi at that time.

And not a peep from Condi now about any of this Katrina postmortem.

]]> By: MarkH http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767007 MarkH Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:00:49 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1767007 <blockquote><p> …<br /> This is the reason that New Orleans flooded. That and the Ms Rive Gulf Outlet that the shipping and oil industry lobbied to build. Sucked the water right into New Orleans. </p></blockquote> <p>I hadn’t heard about that before.</p>

…
This is the reason that New Orleans flooded. That and the Ms Rive Gulf Outlet that the shipping and oil industry lobbied to build. Sucked the water right into New Orleans.

I hadn’t heard about that before.

]]> By: Hmmm http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766968 Hmmm Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:21:55 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766968 <p>P.S. I should have been more clear — I know there have always been a lot of ex-NOLA way pre-Katrina folks here, what I meant was that I’m not aware of <em>post-Katrina</em> NOLA refugees here in large numbers. But I don’t get into Berkeley that often, so your daughter and I may not be seeing the same thing. Thanks again for the article.</p> P.S. I should have been more clear — I know there have always been a lot of ex-NOLA way pre-Katrina folks here, what I meant was that I’m not aware of post-Katrina NOLA refugees here in large numbers. But I don’t get into Berkeley that often, so your daughter and I may not be seeing the same thing. Thanks again for the article.

]]> By: Hmmm http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766964 Hmmm Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:17:14 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766964 <p>Thanks marymccurnin!</p> Thanks marymccurnin!

]]> By: marymccurnin http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766951 marymccurnin Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:04:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766951 <p>Here is an article from the Oakland Tribune about the ties between Oakland and New Orleans.</p> <p><a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_/ai_n15810629" rel="nofollow">http://findarticles.com/p/arti....._n15810629</a></p> Here is an article from the Oakland Tribune about the ties between Oakland and New Orleans.

http://findarticles.com/p/arti….._n15810629

]]> By: marymccurnin http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766942 marymccurnin Sat, 20 Dec 2008 04:56:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766942 <p>Really. It is true.<br /> an aside:<br /> I worked at Mt. Zion Hospital in SF during the mid 70’s in the security department. Most of the security force was from the neighborhood and black. They had last names like LaRue and LaBlanc. Very New Orleans sir names. I asked them about it and they told me the story of their grandparents moving from New Orleans to the bay area.</p> <p>I am looking for more info on the Katrina population in Oakland. My daughter lives in Berkeley and she says there are a fair amount of refugees there.</p> Really. It is true.
an aside:
I worked at Mt. Zion Hospital in SF during the mid 70’s in the security department. Most of the security force was from the neighborhood and black. They had last names like LaRue and LaBlanc. Very New Orleans sir names. I asked them about it and they told me the story of their grandparents moving from New Orleans to the bay area.

I am looking for more info on the Katrina population in Oakland. My daughter lives in Berkeley and she says there are a fair amount of refugees there.

]]> By: Kathryn in MA http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766940 Kathryn in MA Sat, 20 Dec 2008 04:53:43 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/19/lord-of-the-flies-in-post-katrina-lousiana/#comment-1766940 <p>Night-night, sweet pups.</p> Night-night, sweet pups.

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