How is Rick Warren change We can believe in?

Good morning and thanks, BT. Great picture of Paulson in the LA Times article (scroll down).

Here’s more on Army officer April Gallop, the woman suing both Rumsfeld and Cheney for their failure to evacuate the Pentagon – in her own words – on what she saw and heard at the Pentagon on 9/11:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/….._1217.html

(be sure to read through all the comments too – massive evidence there)

And here she is in her own words:

http://www.radiodujour.com/peo…..ndex.shtml

Some perspective on this Rick Warren thing. I believe he is a pig. It’s an insult periood and is particularly insulting to a very loyal, supportive constituency. Not just gays but progressioves more generally. It’s doubly particularly insulting in view of Prop 8 and Amendment 2. But I still expect Obama to persue policies that will usually be to my liking and for the country’s good. And that, in my view, is far more important than the doubly insulting choice of Warren.

Obama wants to change us from progressives to neoconservativees.

right

Obama wants to change us from progressives to neoconservatives.

If so, he’s going to have to find out how it feels to want.

Way to go!

Who could have ever predicted a potential coup in Irak?

good morning pups.

morning came too early today. and have to get ready for appointments. but i wanted to make sure to say this–
when it occurred to me who is doing the Benediction at the Inaugural, i stayed up late to write a diary about it.
there is only one reason to allow someone like rick warren anywhere near the inauguration—to give Reverend Joseph Lowery a platform. There was no other way to do it, I think.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2512

Obi is turning out to be worse than I feared he would be.

But most of all – nothing has changed. Lie #1

waaaaaaaaaa

Will FDL and EW be championing the cause of April Gallop by posting her motion and revealing the existence of her complaint to the widest possible audience?

Please?

The misinformer of the year – and the winner is
http://mediamatters.org/items/…..informer-2

have you written a diary on it?

HRC is not pleased.

Sh*t. For a minute, I thought you meant Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Fool me once, …

Franken foods, war as usual, charter schools, telecom immunity, homophobia, anti-choice, same old bullshit different player.

“Don’t listen to what I say, see what I do” OK we have seen and it ain’t pretty.

That’s what i thought too.

got me too

personally I think it;s all bullshit, fuck a bunch of prayers and bibles.

That is what I thought three

This clown has a 3 hour radio show? Every day? Once a week? Nothing like a 3 hour platform to say whatever bs you want to.

Me four.

turning out to be worse than I feared

same here. did not expect this right wing anti-glbt culture wars bs from him.

You know what, I have nothing against gay people, I hope you get to love one another as much as you would like. Really though, your issues are not what is most important in the world today. If that pisses you off, you really aren’t about the “world”, but about yourselves. How self-obsessed are you versus people being raped, killed and destroyed as a whole? I’m talking genocide of whole ethnic populations of people around the world?

Don’t forget the “clean coal” bs. I believe he’s also pro nuclear energy, as well.

Don’t hold your breath on the return of Habeas Corpus, either.

I saw a statement yesterday and Obama wants the inauguration to be all inclusive. Lessee now, we’ve got a reichwing Chief Justice giving the oath of office to a corporatist AA and an admitted opponent of LGBT issues giving the invocation. That’s pretty inclusive.

Xmas music.

Sure, let’s not worry that Bushco bombed the twin towers, 3000 victims, when we should be interested in their bombing Iraq with hundreds of thousands of victims. Me I think about both ’cause I gotta brain that deal with walking and chewing gum.

“Linda Douglass, a spokeswoman for Obama, defended the choice of Warren, saying, “This is going to be the most inclusive, open, accessible inauguration in American history.”"

If including Rick Warren in the inauguration is what Obama thinks of as “inclusiveness” maybe we can look forward to the announcement of his Nazi and KKK representatives. There’s something odd about including people who want to exclude others from enjoying the benefits of living in this country in the name of “inclusiveness.”

Or prosecuting war crimes or torture or “suiciding” people…….

You obviously don’t understand what I was talking about, maybe you should learn to read….

it’s all one in the same issue – bigotry that justifies treating some of us as second class humans or worse.

and besides, when we start arguing about who’s issues matter most that is when we permit ourselves to be divided against each other. glbt are my brothers and sisters, i stand with them.

Gentle reminder that advocating someone learn to read is not a considerate response to a difference of opinion.

obama going to invite some neo nazis? doesn’t look like inclusiveness to me – looks like giving the stamp of approval to some kinds of bigotry but not others. ymmv.

Amen sister selise.

re: your xmas music choice – HAHAHA!

read, what’s that? I only look at picture books.

I honestly don’t know what he’s doing. I’m certainly not thrilled with his choice of people to put forward his stated vision. That said, I’m just gonna have to wait and see what is actually proposed and accomplished. I can only hope for the best.

Best thing I’ve heard yet this Xmas season.

Well if I could read I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

you might refer to my comments of two years ago found in this thread:

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..ac/?coco=1

This was a thread on Raw Story that coincided with the release of footage from the Pentagon

Off to try to be on time at the great capitalist cesspool for a change.

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

i hope for the best too… but this was a big disappointment. it can’t be justified or explained as election pandering. so i can only think that somehow this reflects our soon-to-be-president’s choices.

I am totally with our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters here and everywhere in the world. I am also with children and others born in countries who would rape and kill them because they happen to be of a certain ethnic origin where killing and raping is currently going on, on a daily basis. I hope you can forgive me if I have forgotten my manners at a gay and lesbian dinner in L.A. or South Hampton versus mothers and children being raped and murdered because of their ethnicity around the world. I suggest you read something, anything about what is going on in African countries around the world before you scold me about my lack of ettiquette regarding gay and lesbian issues here in the USA.

Meanwhile, on the reservation the US continues to honor its treaty obligation – NOT
http://www.indiancountrytoday……62009.html

Me Me Me whether it is heterosexual or otherwise, is no less unattractive or self-indulgent…

let’s get back to what’s really important, how come the guy who wanted to be a martyr and hero by making the grand shoe gesture is still in the joint after getting the shit kicked out of him just like he knew he would?

i agree with selise. and sophie. i think. how’s that for a stong stand?

yea, and that selfish rich bitch who want to be a senator without spending years learning how to be full of shit?

Yeah one guy throwing a shoe is more important than womem and children being raped and murdered because of their ethnicity….

Nothing like being a highly visible pawn in this huge political game.

Another take on Warren
http://www.scholarsandrogues.c…..es-of-god/

i don’t even know how to respond or even where to begin if i were to try. advocating solidarity is scolding about ettiquette? do you think that glbt only live in la or south hamptom and not in african countries too?

got to go. hope someone smarter than me can respond…

Really though, your issues are not what is most important in the world today.

You can minimize any legal/human rights issue in this country with that. Black people can’t legally vote? Well, children were being killed in Vietnam — wasn’t the most important thing in the world. American children dying without healthcare in the US? Well, children are dying in Somalia — so it’s not the most important thing in the world today.

It’s a fairly obnoxious way of telling someone else they don’t matter, because you can always point to something more dire.

If we fix the one, maybe we fix the other, but frankly I have more sympathy and empathy for the women and children being raped and murdered.

The best Xmas song ever.

another? While hilarious it seems like the same take?

I mean sophie is right in that, frankly, there are much bigger issues than rick Warren. it’s no surprise that Obama is going to make a point of being “inclusive” and may actually even believe the stuff he says about that. any time he demonstrates his commitment to being inclusive,. he’s going to piss off people like us. Look, I’m pissed off about Warren’s selection. But I’ll have forgotten about it by tomorrow because there are more important things. In this, he’s just a symbol – of shit. But he’s not about Obama’s substantive policies. But I also agree with selise. we can’t be supposrtyive of some and not others. GLBT’s but not autoworkers and vice versa, for example. and I don’t think we are.

This may be EPUed, but I just wanted to say that hearing this felt like a punch in the gut. I wasn’t even aware of Warren’s role in Prop 8. It was his treatment of Obama versus his treatment of McCain in the “debate” that made me feel Warren was totally the wrong person for such an important role. I don’t understand the thinking at all and don’t agree with Linda Douglas’s comment about inclusiveness. Hope this is not indicative of the way Obama will govern.

take a break, you are talking to yourself

Yes. People are being murdered somewhere in the world, so everyone else STFU about your own human rights issues.

Bizarre.

Good Gawd – Congress wants to give itself a $4700/ year raise.

2nd Circuit Appeals Court Significantly Narrows Broad Gag Order Secrecy for Patriot Act NSLs
Christy’s up

You know what, in the context of what I was saying, I stand by it. You, I think should be ashamed of trying to make something ugly, out of something real I was trying to say which is gay and lesbian marriage isn’t the same horror as women and children being raped and murdered.

I’ll just add my voice on this:

the choice of Rick Warren to stand in the spotlight at this momentous national occasion is astoundingly tone deaf, and is insensitive and insulting to Obama’s LGBT constituents. Find someone of faith who exemplifies the spirit of inclusion, not exclusion.

Got a desire to speak out about something? You can write an oxdown diary for the world to see. No need to force folks to choose which issue they must be the most outraged about, we can multitask.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/post

genocide vs. gay and lesbian marriage, which I wholeheartedly support, is not in the same league.

It is the “Othering” in our culture that fosters the terrible atrocities you refer to. Admitting that one class of people aren’t quite human is the first step on the slippery slope to such carnage.

if he’d never said beans about teh gay, I’d still be as outraged and offended as I am now, he’s a shallow religious huckster. It’s a slap in the face to all.

i’m listening. i think she has something to say.

Yeah one guy throwing a shoe is more important than womem and children being raped and murdered because of their ethnicity….

But….

Really though, your issues are not what is most important in the world today. If that pisses you off, you really aren’t about the “world”, but about yourselves.

How ’bout that one note melody. Part of the rovian school of me, me, me I presume?

I totally agree with you, but maybe we should focus on saving lives instead of saving $50,000 wedding ceremonies for anyone?

Now that could piss off a person!!!!!

Meanwhile, while we take chunks out of each other over this. Someone else wrote a diary about the pastor being overlooked in this hullaballo.

While the idiot gets first word, i do think whoever gets the last word is most important in this case. Let him speak, it’ll mean nothing to the crowd that wants to move onto the main show that will most certainly upstage him. And Rev Lowery will completely trounce anything if he manages to insert it into the invocation.

Ja matte ne! (See you later!)

I guess it is more important to save the American way of anything for anybody in America than worrying about people being massacred in other places in the world?

We call ourselves progressives, but I guess that only refers to us???

Why do we need the any of the fear mongering, money grabbing hucksters anyway. Leave the damn supernatural worshipers to flap their gums in their tax free edifices and get them out of public life.

maybe we should focus on saving lives

There is no “we” – if you want to focus on saving lives, as some of us have been doing over the last few years, go for it. Tell us what you are doing.

But to try to argue that other people’s concerns are not valid, isn’t cricket.

When the majority legally denies a minority equal rights, you open the door to atrocity.

OK damnit
Here are rape statistics by country and, as you can see, America tops the bloody list.

And, speaking as someone, whos wife is directly concerned with sexual assault let me tell you that there is bloody plenty to worry about right here in the good old US of effing A

isolating a group of people, denying them rights is how it starts, sophie.
nipping it in the bud is more affective in changing something than championing the horrible results. both are necessary in order to end it.

For folks whose primary concern is saving lives out there in the world, no need to waste your time here haranguing other people. Take direct action:

http://www.peacecorps.gov/

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

http://www.amnesty.org/

Ready to sign up? Working around the clock doing fundraising? Easy to criticize others for not doing enough. Harder to put yourself on the line.

you bet.

I think that is a list that is not valid relative to african countries where statistics are not given. If you really want to claim that genocide in African/muslim countries are relative to U.S. rapes and murders, good for you. If you can live with that god bless you.

Frankly I’m shocked to see you still here. Do you need directions to nearest office of Amnesty International, to volunteer for overseas duty?

Frankly, who are you talking to?

Here’s an idea. Start your own international charity, work overseas for 12 years saving lives, and then come back and lecture us.

What I was talking about was the right of gay and lesbians to marry in the U.S. versus people being murdered via genocide in other countries. Which is more important to deal with first? Which will be easily dealt with once we conquered the other?

What is RELEVANT is that there are many fronts on the war against violence. The ones closest to home are the front lines. We are trying to do our best. If you think we can better serve by just championing one cause, then you are entitled to your opinion. Yes, the atrocities in Africa are very disheartening. What are YOU doing about it?

like BT said

You can minimize any legal/human rights issue in this country with that. Black people can’t legally vote? Well, children were being killed in Vietnam — wasn’t the most important thing in the world. American children dying without healthcare in the US? Well, children are dying in Somalia — so it’s not the most important thing in the world today.

Look, I totally admire and appreciate your viewpoint, I was just asking a question.

What is RELEVANT is when we start to admit that EVERYONE in the world has the same right to LIVE as we do, that we will HAVE the same RIGHTS for EVERYONE.

If this is your primary cause you might be happier helping fundraise thru Amnesty International than getting so frustrated at folks who refuse to see things your way:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/donate

So he’s being inclusive by excluding the LGBT community? And if he is being inclusive, where is Farrakhan and Wright? Will any imams pray, too.

Not my primary cause, and if you don’t get this, I feel sorry for you. I know that this is not the case, you are just being ugly.

Okay, my immediate reaction to “HRC is not pleased” was that I would find Hillary Rodham Clinton at the end of the link. *g*

see comment 60 and give pause to consider what is said

You know what, I feel sad for you that you would question this vs. adding it to your things to do to make the world a better place. I only meant for it to be something to think about, but instead you chose to make it an either/or. Or instead something to tear me down, when I meant nothing in the extreme.

I ask any of you to think about what that means about yourself?

as i said at 81 you can’t conquer one without conquering the other.

isolating a group of people, denying them rights is how it starts, sophie.
nipping it in the bud is more affective in changing something than championing the horrible results. both are necessary in order to end it.

aHAHAHAHAHA!

You know you are supposed to be progressive people with progressive thoughts, yet is that what you really are? I ask the question as a progressive thinker. I’m not saying that anyone has to agree with me. I just ask that you ask yourselves the question, may it be right?

I totally respect your thoughts, but I think you are being disengenuous when you say that a gay couples right to marry is more important than other people having the right to live.

We will never be taken seriously as people who believe in progressive values when it is more important for some people to be allowed to marry than it is for some people to be allowed to live.

Listen, people, Obama peed all over the liberal base before he was nominated, and anyone who was paying attention knew he would continue to pee all over us after he was elected, so I don’t want to hear any more whining. You all “fell in love” with him and shouted down those of us who questioned him, so just be quiet.

Quiet isn’t a personality trait of ours. Get used to it.

that’s not what i said at all.

The USA does not head the list if you look at the per capita statistics.

#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people
#16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people
#17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people
#18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people
#20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people

…gay and lesbian marriage isn’t the same horror as women and children being raped and murdered.

Yes, the rape of children ranks higher on the moral outrage scale than equal rights for gays. We agree.

Now my questions for you is: who is arguing otherwise and what the hell is your point?

You are totally right in you awwwggggrrrhhh!

I so apologize, I was on a different blog when I started this thing and showed up in the middle of your discussion, don’t know how it happened. Must have hit a wrong button.