That 1.227 Trillion is a low ball estimate if they’re factoring in the long term costs of all the returning veterans… PTSD, chief amongst the long term actual and societal costs…!

Wow, I’m impressed they actually cite Stiglitz and Bilmes… I still take issue with some of their assumptions… “Figures widely vary on Societal estimates…” Et Al…!

The Guardian reports on Cheney’s latest interview, confirms your post ….

The outgoing US vice-president, Dick Cheney, last night gave an unapologetic assessment of his eight years in office, defending the invasion of Iraq, the US prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, secret wiretapping and the extreme interrogation method known as waterboarding.

In his first television interview since the presidential election in November, Cheney displayed no regrets and gave no ground to his many critics within America and around the world. He summed up his record by saying: “I think, given the circumstances we’ve had to deal with, we’ve done pretty well.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..erboarding

Hard to grok numbers that size, but interesting we have another number to compare and contrast — the economic bail out.

Probably both numbers are equally unreliable.

Per The Guardian, Scott Ritter is on Cheney’s crap:

Dick Cheney’s fantasy world
Despite the facts, the vice-president still insists that Saddam Hussein could have produced weapons of mass destruction

In yet another attempt at revisionist history by the outgoing Bush administration, vice-president Dick Cheney, in an exclusive interview with ABC News, took exception to former presidential adviser Karl Rove’s contention that the US would not have gone to war if available intelligence before the invasion had shown Iraq not to possess weapons of mass destruction. Cheney noted that the only thing the US got wrong on Iraq was that there were no stockpiles of WMD at the time of the 2003 invasion. “What they found was that Saddam Hussein still had the capability to produce weapons of mass destruction. He had the technology, he had the people, he had the basic feed stock.”

The vice-president should re-check both his history and his facts. Just prior to President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq, the UN had teams of weapons inspectors operating inside Iraq, blanketing the totality of Iraq’s industrial infrastructure. They found no evidence of either retained WMD, or efforts undertaken by Iraq to reconstitute a WMD manufacturing capability. Whatever dual-use industrial capability that did exist … had been so degraded as a result of economic sanctions and war that any meaningful WMD production was almost moot. To say that Saddam had the capability or the technology to produce WMD at the time of the US invasion is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..aq-war-wmd

Candy and rose petals cost a lot of money these days.

The unemployment rate in Venezuela dropped to 6.1 percent in November, the lowest percentage in over a decade.

Those damn socialists

Dayam, some tragic news indeed! What ever will they do…?

wikipedia:

Eyes Wide Open is an exhibit created by the American Friends Service Committee observing the American soldiers and marines that have died in the Iraq War. It contains a pair of combat boots to represent every American soldier and marine that has died in the war, as well as shoes representing Iraqi civilians who have lost their lives during the invasion and occupation. The exhibit was first shown in Chicago’s Federal Plaza in January 2004. At that time, the exhibit contained 504 pairs of boots.[1] As of March 2007, the national exhibit contained over 3,400 pairs of boots and had visited more than 100 cities in 40 states.[2] However, as a result of its unmanageable size, the exhibit has been broken down state-by-state. Currently, nearly every state has its own state exhibit. The national exhibit in its entirety would currently contain more than 4,000 pairs of empty boots.

Aloha, Selise! Top of the morning to ya! I’m atop Mauna Kea pulling an all-niter! Anything on tap in Congress? Or are they all home for the holidays?

I can only hope that someone somewhere will hold these bastards accountable. I do not give two hoots how they are finally dealt with only that they get their comuppance, every bloody one of them from the coward in chief to the to the psychopaths that carried out their orders. They must not be allowed to avoid justice.

howdy CT! what’s the weather like at the top?

i think congress is on vacation (in more than one way). :(

Hmmmm 2 inches of snow here and coming down hard. 24 degrees. Not pleasant.

i’m all for fair trials.

i think congress is on vacation

I am sure that if there was anything to do they would be back in a hurry but, as luck would have it, nothing requires their attention.

Actually, pretty decent about 35 F without any windchill and a gorgeous moon to gaze at… Still snow on the ground, particularly on the north facing slopes… A snowman greeted me at the entrance to the observatory…! ;-)

Me too but even as a nonviolent, card burning pacifist I could see merit in dealing with them in what ever way it takes to make them accountable. I can think of nothing that would be too bad for them.

Here’s the observatory I’m working at tonite… First time for these guys…

nomolos – where’s “here” (if it’s ok to ask)? i’m in MA, and we have a bit of snow too (although it’s not snowing now).

I am sure that if there was anything to do they would be back in a hurry but, as luck would have it, nothing requires their attention.

707!!!

For those of you that would like to support unions here is a great way to spend a little and help a lot.Working Families e-Activist

In recognition of your efforts, we’re offering you 10% off every item at The Union Shop Online through this Wednesday. Just enter the discount code in your shopping cart when you’re done filling it up with goodies for your entire family, and we’ll take 10% off everything you buy.

Here is the code AFL2008 There is all kinds of stuff available and with the unions under a savage attack by the corporate shills in Congress now is the time to show your support.

very cool

Good morning, pups. It’s solo Friedman today. MoDo is off today. Mr. Friedman, writing from Hong Kong, gives us “The Great Unraveling,” in which he says our banking crisis has made it increasingly clear that the U.S. and China are becoming two countries, one system. But they appear to be on very different historical trajectories.

Here he is.

The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and I’ve got apple walnut muffins warm out of the oven. It’s warm here (58°) but the fog is so thick you can barely see across the street. It makes for white-knuckle driving because there are always a few idiots who don’t bother to turn on their lights… Have a great day.

I am in northern Mass. Portsmouth NH to be exact. Been here for 32 years after living in Boston for 12 since arriving in America on christmas eve 1964, The evening I arrived we went carol singing on Beacon Hill… a lovely experience

Be back in a hour… Shift change…! ;-)

Ooh, I’ll partake of them in a hour, M’dear! *g*

Wow, got lost in those images they are super cool. As a Gemini myself I appreciate the observatory name

Put the fucking Russians in Iraq for 10 years like happened after we left Vietnam. We’d be welcomed with open arms a Groucho said.

beautiful – i’ve been to rye many times.

morning marion. hot chocolate sounds good (i think i’ve become addicted). take care with the driving.

Unfortunately most of the participants in these transgressions, from war to katrina, to the economy will walk. We have no real accountability in this country.

Not only are you OK if you don’t get caught, your OK after you get caught because everyone else was doing it or believe it was OK.

Can you believe that this Madoff creep was actually a professor of business and was running a huge ponzi scheme by his own admission. In his mind it doesn’t matter how you make money in the financial world. it’s not work anyway, only deal making and fees, and ROI and other completely nonesense. What’s the difference between a ponzi scheme and an IPO? Really both are get rich quick schemes of finance.

The same BS has inserted itself into the notion of “security”. We have no enemies, ie nations that are interested in taking our territory. Do we have enemies around the world that are pissed off at our policies? You betcha. Maybe we need to consider the policies which INJECTS us into their affairs.

Our “intervention” in business and then in the political lives of people of other nations is the sole source of the animus toward the USA. If we would mind our business, be a good neighbor, act in humanitarian and even handed manner we would not need a DOD or rather a war department and a national security state. We are the one who created much of the problems which we face.

The attack in Mumbai is not our problem. it’s likely a dispute between India and the Moslems people over Kashmir which is land and control of it in dispute. People fight over land especially when they have skin the game. We don’t have any territorial disputes, though for sure we need to get out of gitmo and return it to the people of Cuba, and various Asain Pacific islands.

Our aggressive, we own and police the world (for our business interests) has to end along with our economic system based on unethical predatory greed.

Mercifully the hospital is only about 2½ miles away, but it’s still hair-raising when morons come looming up out of the fog with no lights… (Being close to work was a major consideration when I bought the house 3 years ago.)

Yes. Although I do think it is pretty damn funny that Madoff conned all those supposedly knowledgeable financial people. But you know the investors were just being bloody greedy so they do deserve the consequences.

China will now direct it’s economy inward and move away from the symbiotic dependency on the US. This enabled them to build a huge manufacturing base and a skilled industrial workforce. Now they will cash in and create and sell to their domestic market.

With the coming increase in shipping cheap and related credit costs, the import export model is going the way of the Dodo. We will now have to rebuild our industrial base and do it green and drop the globalism mantra and do what China is about to do focus on their OWN people and economy.

Hopefully banking can be returned to the basic function it used to play and the financial sector can be closed for ever. We need to focus on worker’s pay and rights and their pursuit of “happiness” with such things as education, health care, safe food, and affordable housing and a safe and clean environment.

We need to move away from the “new feudalism” or novo slavery which is what capitalism is. We have to drop the meme of indentured slavery to creditors so we can live some “dream” which for most turns out to be a nightmare. There’s no need for inflation and credit or investments. These are all schemes of the financial creeps. We need the basics and a secure future till we expire.

Money made them do it.

What amazes me about this story, is you have these very wealthy “conservative” people who call themselves “investors” and consider themselves saavy and they go to some asshole with 1 few hundred million and tell him to “invest” their money for a high ROI. He just goes to an idiot like Madoff with a bunch of his client’s money and says – “here’s a billion, make me some dough!”. I mean really, what a bunch of clueless assholes. What the F are these investment schemes?

Anyone with a fiduciary trust who “invests” money with these assholes.. almost all of them should be sued and this applies to charities as well. What a bunch of complete incompetent and irresponsible assholes. The whole lot of them.

We will now have to rebuild our industrial base and do it green and drop the globalism mantra

This country, if there are sufficient resources allocated, can become a world leader in the “green” economy. Of course we must, as you say, get rid of the financial con games first. We must pay people a “living wage” no more of the damned minimum wage, return to a cash society, have national healthcare and an educational system that allows for free/subsidized higher education and cut the war budget by 70% or more and grow our unions. In the meantime I will settle for saving the auto industry jobs.

“here’s a billion, make me some dough!”

Now me, if I had a $billion I would think that I already had enough damn dough!

return to a cash society

DING, DING, DING!!! I use one credit card (for convenience) and pay the balance off every month. If I want something large (like the freezer we got a few months ago) I [gasp] SAVE for it. I’m considered something of a curiosity where I work…

Off to the salt mines.

BBC reports calling CTuttle, is this your hill?

Drillers break into magma chamber

It has been described as a geologist’s dream – a unique opportunity to study up close the volcanic processes that built the Earth’s continents.
Drillers looking for geothermal energy in Hawaii have inadvertently put a well right into a magma chamber.
Molten rock pushed back up the borehole several metres before solidifying, making it perfectly safe to study.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci…..780873.stm

1,858 DAYZ AND THYE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Attaturk and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

The reason I am very worried that this depression will be longer and require much more’n even FDR gave us in the first one is that not enough of the middle men (the brokers, arbitraegers, investment bankers, venture capitalists and front men) that shill for the oligarchy are jumpin outta windows or turnin’ states evidence this time. It seems that the rulin’ families learned their lesson and paid off their shills out of the last bit they could squeeze from the federal credit machine…so nobody but the common folks will suffer when the deflation hits and nobody has any cash to be taxed to run back into the economy ta “prime the pump” AND pay the debt.

Shit, the Chimpenfeuhrer actually accomplished what his grandfather and the old oligarchy couldn’t do in the 1930’s…he was able ta bankrupt the country and dismantle the institutions established to fend off another depression AND hollowed out the government and left the military as the only secure employment for the workin’ class.

And this is what I and my baby boomer brothers and sisters left to our kids!!

Whole bunches a folks better see the inside of a jail cell over this larceny and murder!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…AND NO I WON’T CALM DOWN, DAMMIT!!

When I hear the call for more regulation it makes me think about putting a leash and a choke collar on an aggressive pit bull. This restrains the animal, but it doesn’t change the nature of the beast.

We don’t need regulation as much as a complete different approach to the economy.

The entire financial sector and those that are “stuck” to it are concerned with making money with money. interest, credit spreads, risk management, growing money. When there is inflation this seems like it’s essential otherwise savings would be losing their value over time.

We need to examine the idea of making money with money. I think this is inherently wrong and the only institution which should engage in this is the government. Here it represents all the people and has to adjust the money supply, inflation and deflation based on the population. The gov should be the only lender and make as little as necessary on it’s loans. That interest of course would be earned for the people!

When your needs for money when you can no longer earn it are replaced by government guaranties of of a pension, housing, food and health care, you need to retire savings becomes crazy of fun money.

Capitalism has worked out well for capital, but very poorly for workers and the middle class. This is a fact. And it will ALWAYS produce the same result where workers are exploited by capital, workers create wealth and capital OWNS all the wealth. Regulation is not going to change this.

We need to have a completely different system. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

And more coverage this morning about longer delay on the auto “bailout” to get it right; little disclosure on the initial bailout to the rich guys; and background of numerous reports of problems with Madoff long before now. Yep, just nothing done. What a lovely news day. ;) Plus coverage of parents telling kids why Christmas will be so slim. Bah humbug, W.

You are so right. The lords have paid off, bribed and “brought over” their “workers”.. the ones who run the financial world. They have created a bunch of millionaires who got the trickle down from the multi-billionaires. They’re had, paid for, shills and will be fine as the rest of us go down.

Depression hurts the working and middle classes. The rich only see it as an opportunity to buy assets a fire sale prices and make oddles when the “system” rebounds by the feds inject money at the bottom, to these bottom feeders can resume their blood sucking.

morningzzzzzzzz

here’s WJ:
7:30-8:00 TOM LAURICELLA
Uplink Wall Street Journal
Reporter http://online.wsj.com

Topic: Discuss the latest in the federal investigation of Bernard Madoff (MAY-doff), a New York City investment broker who lost at least $50 billion in investor funds due to what has been described as a “Ponzi” scheme. Guest will provide background and offer insight into the investigation, with a goal of discussing the federal government’s role.

8:00-8:30 Newspaper Articles/Phones

8:30-9:00 MICHAEL HIRSHFIELD
Oceana
North America Senior VP & Chief Scientist http://oceana.org

Topic: A group of top U.S. marine scientists met yesterday in Washington, DC to discuss the state of the oceans. They also urged the incoming administration & Congress to implement new rules and regulations to protect the world’s oceans.

9:00-10:00 H.W. BRANDS Uplink Author, “Traitor to His Class”
http://www.hwbrands.com

Topic: Guest will look at the political career and the Presidential tenure of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. This is the fourth of our weeklong series looking at past presidents.

the thing regulation has going for it (in my mind anyway) is that it has been described, there are people who seem to know what is needed. what does the “completely different system” you advocate look like? how does it work? what are the risks? serious questions.

Why yes it is… Actually one hill of quite a few that make up this huge rock that is the Big Isle…! Two 13,000+ footers(Mauna Kea and Loa) and a couple of 7,000 footers (Hualalai and Kilauea)…! ;-)

Anyone with a fiduciary trust who “invests” money with these assholes.. almost all of them should be sued and this applies to charities as well. What a bunch of complete incompetent and irresponsible assholes. The whole lot of them.

That’s going to happen, and it’s going to put the fear of God into the trustees who take their investment advice on the golf green.

Hey CT, long time no see!
thanks for the link to Gemini

Aloha, Ellie! You’re welcome… Too bad I can’t show ya’ll what’s behind the curtain here… But, that home page does offer up a lot! ;-)

guess I’ll just have to come out there ;)

Swim’s up

Selise this is a very involved and complex discussion. I can only tell you what some of the “specifications” should be. I can’t name or describe the entire new system. But this is some we need to discuss.

It is my belief that capitalism has some serious fatal flaws which will always be present and lead to cycles, pain collapse and the accumulation of wealth in a few hands. Just what we see today in the world.

If you keep the system but have a severe tax regimen capitalists will not play. They do it for the big pay off.

Workers work to make money to live and then hopefully have some left over for “fun” leisure and so forth.

Capital “works” to accumulate more capital and more control over the process. Shareholders are complicit with capital and toss in their small stake to get a “free ride” to increased wealth.

Making ROI is a flawed concept. Charging interest aside from a small fee is a flawed concept. Even many “sales commissions” is a flawed concept. People need to be paid for their work end of story. And yes we need to have taxes to pay for the commons – roads, education, fire, police, bureaucrats etc.

How’se that for a start?

By the way, I have no investments, never owned or will own a “stock” and intend to work until I can’t then die. I try to leave a pretty small foot print. I own no property, never have and never will.

i don’t disagree with much of your criticisms of our current system. but that doesn’t mean i don’t think we could make it worse, which was why i asked. a while ago i tried to do a little bit of a survey on alternative economic systems. albert’s parecon was the most interesting – although i still don’t understand how it would really work on a large scale, i still like some of the ideas. i guess if we’re going to consider really fundamental changes, i’d like to set up some experimental zones for small scale testing and learning. preventing that, of course, has been one of the major bipartisan goals of our foreign policy (the risk of infection by the good example).