Current Status: Dodd is leading negotiations with Corker (who is in favor of a deal) to try and get a deal which can pass. If they make it, the vote will happen tonight, if not they’ll probably take up the House Bill tomorrow morning.
Looks like the Senate Republicans are serious about killing the auto deal. Here’s the bottom line, if GM goes down, it will take Ford and Chrysler with it, because the three of them share suppliers. Losing GM’s business will put most of them into the red. 80% of American consumers will not buy a car from a company in bankruptcy, so the idea that going bankrupt is the solution to the auto companies woes is nonsense.
What comes out of any bankruptcy, even if they have the names GM, Ford and Chrysler, will be a shadow of what went into bankruptcy—assuming anything comes out at all. More likely would be that big chunks would be gobbled up by foreign car companies, especially by the Chinese, who want expertise, but not to make cars in the US.
We can expect, then, to lose most of the three million jobs related to the auto industry if the Big 2 1/2 go under. To put this in perspective, in the last year the US has lost 2.7 million jobs. This would be more than the job losses for an entire (lousy) year. The US lost half a million jobs last month, and almost every economic forecaster expects the US to lose even more jobs in January, when retailers go fish-belly up due to an abysmal Christmas retail season.
Economic contractions of this sort are self-reinforcing. The more people who lose their jobs, the less consumer spending there is. The less consumer spending there is, the less money businesses make. The less money businesses make, the more they have to lay off people. The more people who lose their jobs, the less consumer spending there is. The less… but why go on, you get the point.
Nor will the meltdown be limited to just job losses. There are billions of dollars of outstanding Credit Default Swaps on Big 3 debt. When they go under, those will be called. Such defaults are precisely why letting Lehman Brothers go under turned out to be such a big mistake, and precisely why the Fed has refused to allow AIG to go under. Granted, the Big 3 don’t appear to have nearly as much exposure, nonetheless, the nominal amounts are not the point.
When the market knows that even companies this integral to the US economy will be allowed to die for crass political reasons (I can read the Republican refusal in no other way, given the consequences), once again premiums for default swaps will go up, and those companies who have issued CDS’s will have to revalue them once again to much higher valuations. That will mean that they will be forced to put even more red ink on their books, which the Fed and Treasury will have to then bail out, or allow them to borrow against, at a cost of much for that 15 billion dollars.
Likewise there are plenty of collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) outstanding on Big 3 paper, both their own debt, and on auto, consumer and real estate loans made by them (yes, GMAC was foolish enough to be in the real estate business). The Big 2 1/2 going under will cause problems with regards to a lot of these loans as well.
There is a strong argument to be made that auto manufacturing in the US is in a long term decline. However, it is also true that just because I’m going to die eventually doesn’t mean that I should just get it over with today. The auto companies would not be in any danger of going out of business if it were not for both the general economic downturn and the financial crisis, which has made it nearly impossible for GM, for example, to finance new cars. People want to buy them, those people have good credit, GM cannot sell them.
This is not the time to allow the Big 3 to go under. The cascading financial and economic effect will make the oncoming economic storm far, far worse. If 700 billion was ok to use to save Wall Street, whose business model was probably even worse than Detroit’s (add up their losses and most of Wall Street didn’t actually make any money for the last ten years), then 15 or 25 billion to save Detroit is peanuts.
Or we can make sure this turns into a Depression. Guess the Republicans playing Scrooge this Christmas prefer that. I expect they don’t know any of the normal people who will lose their jobs because of Republican stupidity, heartlessness and union hatred.
I’d say that you get the government you deserve, except Americans voted for a different government. Unfortunately, Janaury may come too late for both the auto companies and the economy.
Depression, ho!



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zed
Outrageous.
OK with you if I post the Digg, nahant?
Did I mention the idea of an ESOP for GM in related comments recently? If not, I have a short diary on DKos concerning this idea. It’s getting some interesting comments. How about you, Ian? Want to discuss?
Shorter Rethugs:If any union members are left employed, the terrorists will have won.
Digg
Ah, why did we vote Dimocratic when these fucks can’t/won’t protect us from these Gawd damn Goopers?
It is hard to imagine that there would be such ideologues in the Senate, if we did not see it on a daily basis. They may get what they want at the cost of the country, but especially the cost to the Republican party. Did they sign some kind of suicide pact with the criminal Bush?
Or, in other words, the Rethugs are basically saying that they’d rather play ‘chicken’ with the economy and risk sending the country(and attached with it, a whole lot of the rest of the world)into the toilet JUST so they can say that they ‘beat the union’. These guys are ‘barking mad’.
GOP to US:
We weren’t really sure Herbert Hoover was getting a fair shake, so we want to run an experiment. If we get another Great Depression, we won’t accept responsibility, but we will go 3 out of 5 at the next opportunity.
Do the ‘thugs think they can force a Depression and then somehow convince the voters that it was Obama’s fault?
Well, there is the problem that we are still in the 110th Congress with its razor thin majority in the Senate. If we could wait until the 111th where we will have a more robust majority, and the Presidency we would. Unfortunately we do not have that kind of time.
Digg this Post Pups!
nahant, see comment 3 above
what did you do, wait til I posted so you could knock mine off? :)
sorry o/t.
Bus released talking points about the good that he’s done in office. on hardball right now. one point is that he has maintained the honor and dignity of the office (presidency).
WTF? The guy that lied us into war?
the guy that looked the other way as NO drowned?
the guy who allowed his staff to out an CIA agent?
they guy who wiretaps his own citizens?
The guy that talks with his mouth full to UK’s Prime Minister?
That rubbed the shoulders of Germany’s president?
That addressed the G8 and said “goodbye from teh world’s biggest polluter?”
the guy who liked to bodyslam marines?
yeah, yeah, really effin’ dignified.
the guy whose idea of his best day in office was the day he caught a big fish in his private stocked pond?
Ian, relax. The market just has to be allowed to work itself out.
If the big 2 1/2 can survive until the infrastructure improvement monies hit the street there could be a lot of pickups bought as contractors get their first draw. This would be especially true if there was an incentive program.
Why do I think this question about people who won’t buy a car from a company in bankruptcy is bogus. I’ll bet most of the respondents think that means the company is out of business.
I see the wordpress ated by [/McArdle].
the guy who blocked Congressional oversight subpoenas of his staff in order to protect himself?
Have these Sons of the South considered how Nascar will operate without the big 2 1/2?
the guy who commuted the sentence of convicted felon Scooter Libby in order to protect himself and his vice president?
Nope wouldn’t do that on purpose to you my fellow Digger, I was already off Digging this Post! Sorry about that “g”
I think it’s very dignified for him to be out fishing while the nation burns. Keeps him above the fray.
a bad day fishin is better than a good day at work!
Can we impeach Bush yet?
Guys, love when you digg FDL stuff, but be careful about the character limit on Digg. It’ll cut the title right off, so you often have to adapt.
I don’t have the link handy but saw an article the other day where Bill Francis (CEO of NASCAR), Richard Childress (Childress Racing), the Roush of Roush Racing, Jimmy Johnson (winner of the last 3 cups), Dale Earnhardt, Jr, and a couple of others were all quoted as saying Congress needed to take care of the Big 3.
I’d take the work any day. Poor little fishies.
If the republicans kill the auto bailout, we’ll have 3 million (jobs lost) more reasons to hate their guts.
well, I think that if you are gonna eat something it’s better to kill it, clean it and cook it yourself. If you are a veggie then more power too ya.
Shelby, Corker and the rest of their ilk are a bunch of spoiled 12 year olds. Their party was crushed, their ideology is bankrupt, and they don’t like that – so they are shooting the country in the head out of pure spite.
If the Republicans stop this deal and it throws the entire country into another depression it will be the end of them.
Perhaps it is time to play hardball. The first bill before the new Congress could be titled: Closing Military Bases in Alabama.
They need to be reminded that virtually every state south of the Mason Dixon Line takes more from the US Treasury than it pays in.
Naw they will just make up shit to throw at the dems and their brain dead constituency will just lap it up. Obama is a muslim dontcha know
You must have a job you really love.
You don’t Have to keep the fish, ya know. It’s the activity, I’m thinking.
But, people be eatin’ fish for a long time.
You think? They’ve done enough terrible things for a long time and they ain’t dead yet.
I don’t even like to hurt the branches of the herbs in my herb garden.
I suspect this is a losing argument.
I totally respect your position.
So,
Throw some taxpayer money toward the Detroit 3.
Save their asses for a month or two.
They are dead. Period.
Let’s look forward, not backward.
what’s the latest? just turned cspan2 back on an nothing is happening, although it does say that corker is sponsoring a substitute bill.
… let me see if i have this straight – the Rs are saying that unless they are permitted to destroy the union they will pull what’s left of the economy down around us? sort of like samson bringing the temple down to destroy his enemies and dying himself in the process?
well goddamn!
whitehouse up on the senate floor.
Nothing like 3 million angry and hungry people with time their hands to vent their anger to light a fire under your ass.
Ian we as Diggers don’t put the Title in that is already there when you submit the first Digg. I think it is because of the way the title was written by the Poster. But that is just my guess.
My job is mommy, so yeah, I’m lucky. Doesn’t pay so well, though.
monetarily anyway
Gotcha.
(While I was baking this morning, I had been watching CSPAN and you know who – the bald creepy guy – was talking, so I decided to put on Handel’s Messiah, which I did, but I didn’t turn off the tv, just the tv sound went off. My husband came out of his office and said, Man, it looks like he’s singing the tenor. HA!)
Just thought that would make you smile.
Digg puts the title in but the Digger is allowed to modify. There is a 60 character limit on Digg titles but sometimes Digg truncates the title well before the 60 character limit. I think Ian is just asking you as the Digger to pay attention to the title and if the origianl one doesn’t fit, modify it to fit while still making sense.
Same with putting an actual summary/precis in and replacing the duplication of the title that Digg puts in the title.
The purpose of Digging is to try to bring traffic to FDL. I think we just need to do the steps that can help make that happen.
I turned cspan off after seeing lieberman fellate 9/11 commission members on the wmd panel.
OK Ian, I will watch out for that.
I was listening to Savoy Brown and Steely Dan myself. No class over here.
that is cool
Are the Republicans nuts Bush is still President is this the legacy they want to be remembered for?
Why is Senator Vitter leading this? Is it because that next to Larry Craig he has no chance of ever running for higher office.
Is the GOP trying to lose the Midwest Forever? Are there any polls is this playing well in the South? What percentage of people understand the issue.
‘Zactly.
And yeah, I do eat meat. But I absolutely wouldn’t touch it if I had to kill it first.
It’s all bullshit. Posturin, posin, moon pie eatin rednecks.
3 million is the tip of the iceberg – this doesn’t account for all the barber/beauty shops/restaurants/oil shops/etc that surround the auto plants and will die a swift death with the plant closings AND media (advertising agencies and newspapers and radio and TV) which will either go out of business or lose a majority of jobs because they no longer have their major advertisers (car companies and dealers and all those shops around the plants).
I am scared to death.
That’s a horse of a different color.
lol. i missed that (not by accident). whitehouse is now speaking in support of holder. i think i’ll turn the volume down. *g*
The guy who claims he quit drinking, even though there are multiple photos of him drinking since then?
The Democrats and Reid are talking about some kind of “compromise”!
This usually means the Dems cave to whatever demands the Republicans make, and give them ever more then they wanted…
“Fightin” Harry Reid is the biggest wussbag the Senate has ever had, and Nancy Pelosi comes in a hard second.
Both have sold the Democratic base out again and again, and both deserve to step down and let someone with some cojones take over the leadership of the Senate!
I dig Steely Dan, as long as the title isn’t so long it breaks a thread.
Was resorting the cd’s just he other day and found some SD and was listening.
I’m really bad about putting cd’s back in their cases, and every so often have to do a whole clean up and inventory. Ha! Plus, with the smoke damage, I had to wipe every single one.
yes, but what a price to pay for good riddance
born in Indonesia, I hear
With an RoC Co’ Cola to go with that Moon Pie.
(Of course, my nod to my redneck ways is still pourin’ the bag of peanuts into the Coke/Pepsi)
We saw what happened in the 90s, when a lot of aerospace moved from CA to ‘cheaper’ (mostly nonunionized) states. The state economy dropped, and then Bush41’s base closings (close the shipyards that actually made money: right) and recession made it worse. It didn’t improve until after Clinton came in, and that wasn’t much of an improvement in the worst-hit areas.
You can modify it Nahant. Honest, it’s there, but you can then edit it during the submission process. Give it a shot (this is only true for the submitter, obviously.)
I would be too if I was in Royal Oak!
and the guy who was seen playing golf after “giving up golf” to “support the troops”?
lol :)
They’ve been eating Apples for longer and look at all the trouble that got us into …
That’s what iTunes is for.
;) – How are ya?
I would love to see Reid develop some cojones or resign but lets face it in the 110 the dems don’t have the strength to defeat the rethugs on a filibuster. He could show cojones and let the rethugs fillibuster until jan 20 and what have we gained?
Yea, iTunes by Apple!
heh, did you see that iCar idea idea earlier today? Get an 80 gig iCar. Steve Jobs for GM ceo. The crash test dummy will have to wear a debugged!
Yep, and it even cleans up some of the minor scratches that cuased some of my CDs to skip.
the thugs have cemented their status in infamy
too cool
%s/debugged/debugger
Ain’t got none. We be old fashioned hippies. Even got one o’ them turning roundy things ya put licorce pizzas on. You should see the old man’s collection. The kids just flip.
what do you clean your CDs with?
I’ve thought about that same solution as concerns Saturn Corp.
It would be worth the effort if only to see the looks on GM’s managers faces when asked if the UAW could make an offer for Saturn Corp.
It’s possible to learn things that would never be revealed under normal circumstances, if we find the right ‘un-related’ question to ask.
“So what do you say guys, how much do want for Saturn?”
A rationale for the Democrats to use the nuclear option and do away with the filibuster or severely limit its use. This of course assumes that the Democrats actually want to do something and not hide behind the perennial excuse that they wanted to do something but the Republicans filibustered them.
Sorry, see my post @85, it’s for you.
You’ll probably hit me, but, water and an old soft t-shirt. It was the cases, mostly that had sooty stuff on ‘em.
The burnt to the rocks hills all around us still have lottsa soot and since we live next to a wash below the dam, there’s plenty of wind. Months later, we’re still getting sooty stuff coming in. :(
Have changed the central forced air filters twice since.
Them Nascar folks are going to take this really hard. They may make em in the midwest but they drive em in those rebel states. But they don’t care if there isn’t a United States folks what do they care about car companies. The South will rise again. I think we’ve found the true dead enders. Terrorists, don’t look any farther than the Republican caucus.
It depends on what the count is.
Spin doctor imports vinyl right onto the box but I getcha. I have about 1000 records that I have always said I was going to convert but it ain’t happened yet.
Flutes arrived today. Went through the basics and can actually make the same tones as on the CD lesson. This is gonna be fun. Prolly drive the tigers nutz, though.
Tull?
This issue sure shows the RePukes don’t work for, or relate to their constituents, even less then their friends across the isle. So who do these reactionary idiots work for?
Native American 6-hole flutes made from poplar. One A and one G.
For Raven at 93.
Woo Hoo for you.
No, no the tigers will love it. I’m thinking.
Thought so. I’d love to see it, too.
I can do Ian Anderson.
It’s a combination of humming and blowing at the same time.
And, the mister just told he (IA) runs a gourmet fish farm these days. Just to close the circle of our comments.
Gots to go pick up sonnyboy. No bus today, ’cause he’s in detention at HS.
Must be virtually related to Uncle Raven and Uncle Dragon. :) Later, dudes.
“Why do I think this question about people who won’t buy a car from a company in bankruptcy is bogus. I’ll bet most of the respondents think that means the company is out of business.”
Perhaps that’s true…but it doesn’t change the reality. If a dealership sells Chevy’s and those folks whio have no clue are buying a car think Chevy’s out-of-business (that this is a “going out of biz SALE”) then they’ll think. What if the car needs repair while it’s still on warranty? Or servicing?Or in three years, if the company goes out of businerss FOR GOOD who will repair the car? And how much will it then be worth on re-sale? Vs. a Honda or Toyota?
Listening to Sessions(Asshole-AL) quoting from a Heritage Foundation Paper explaining that a Bankruptcy is the best thing for the workers. Right…
“Have these Sons of the South considered how Nascar will operate without the big 2 1/2?”
What? You mean that Volkswagon and KIA won’t pick them up?
well, at least he cited his (wingnut) source…
probably because he is too stupid to say it in his own words.
“A Bankruptcy Judge will make sure the process is done so that is fair to everyone involved.” Apparently the man has never been involved in a bankruptcy since he and his pals changed the law. It sure as hell isn’t fair to the bankrupt party…
Remembering him at the Gonzalez confirmation hearing he read Gonzalez his resume. The moron is incapable of independent thought
NPR had a long segment with Shelby Dickless on last night (at least 6 minutes) talking about killing the unions, how unions did this, how bankrupting GM was the only way to allow the automakers to rid themselves of the unions…ad nauseum.
Not a word about the banks failing to make their bridge loans, about executive salaries, about poor management decisions in planning product lines, etc.
He practically said…”we’re gonna have to put millions into the long-term unemployment lines in order to have the workers come back willingly as compliant scabs”.
Oh, and did NPR even put up a rebuttal statement from a union Rep, or even another Senator in favor of giving them the loan?
The answer, dear Readers is…NO!
Of course not, everything in this Nation anymore is loaded against the Unions. That in and of itself tells us all we need to know! Keep the Unions alive!
I’m sitting here screaming “Fuck you!” at my TV every other sentence that Sessions utters, my poor dog thinks I’ve finally lost it completely…
Dayam, this whole kabuki is easily summed up… “The Rich get richer, and, the Poor get poorer” Anybody left out out? ;-)
Plus all those folks at NAPA, Kragen, Carquest…all the folks that work concessions around the NADCAR tracks, the towns that survive because of the NASCAR circuit…specialist auto repair shops…companies that have fleets serviced by the Big 2 1/2…as well as the upstream suppliers (who make everything from steel for chassis, to transmission bearings…to vinyl seat forms).
The benefactors ASFAIK are the shipping container industry, dealers of foreign makes, and mechanics who service them. A small scale scavenging industry might crop up, taking parts from failed GM vehicles and fixing them into extinct-vehicles. Well all kind of be like Hans Solo shopping around junkyards for parts for our Millenium Ford Falcons!
Thank you, Ian. As I stated in my comment at the DIGG, I wish you were speaking in the senate tomorrow.
Those blocking the rescue of the auto industry lack the character or mentality to perceive the scope of damage which the death of that industry will bring. Their minds are imprisoned.
I lived during the Great Depression. Perhaps the 2X4 of hunger will awaken some of them to reality – - too late to reverse course and prevent our country from sinking into that misery again.
I finally caught up with you SD! What key did you order? I left comments for you a couple of times but timing off.
I’m happy for you! Santa came early, huh?
Yeah, we’ve been playing blog tag. Actually thought I was on a thread same time as you, but alas… I got the starter package. One A and one G made from poplar. Couldn’t afford a cedar or more exotic wood. Comes with an instruction manual and a corresponding CD plus 2 CDs of Robert Windpony solos. Also got a plain cloth bag, which turns out to be big enough for both flutes. Right off the bat I can play the correct tones. Fingering will take a little practice. Late b-day, early Xmas present to meself.
Even NASCAR, the organization has had a layoff of 10% of it’s permanent staff. The famed Petty Enterprises released 39 employees on Monday, bringing the total to 65 since the end of the season.The legendary Wood Brothers organization will run only 12 Sprint Cup races next season. It has been estimated that between the Cup, Nationwide and Truck Series, anywhere from 750 to 1,200 or more people ultimately will lose their jobs.
Compiled from a variety of sources.
SD, which key do you like best? I can only order one. I wanted the sound like the background music at the site but none of the keys sounded like that to me. I’ll go back and listen again.
I don’t know yet. This page, Selecting a Flute, has all the key tones. I have small hands but they fit nicely on either the A or the G.
SD, I mean the tone. Which you like better. I like low, mellow tones.
Hmmmm, good question. They’re very close and both are low and mellow. That’s a lotta help, right?
I saved your original link, and thanks for this one. I’m going there now and listen again.
Surf around the site. It’s fun. Lotta stuff there and some beautiful flutes. Like I could afford some of those exotic woods, one of a kind flutes and such.
Sounds like a great time for the nuclear option
End the filibuster now. We’ll never have a better opportunity.
Maybe next session when the Dems have 59 or 58 seats and a Democratic president can anything of real substance be passed.