This is potentially huge. And it sounds like the IG wants the case–that’s good.
Eric Lichtblau and James Risen have some amazing news.
Representative Rush Holt, a New Jersey Democrat and chairman of the Select Intelligence Oversight Panel, said in an interview that he planned to ask the inspector general of the N.S.A. to open what would be the first formal investigation by the agency into whether its eavesdropping program had improperly interfered with an American’s right to a fair trial
The Judge seems to think there may be some "there" there.
Mr. Timimi’s lawyers maintain that the N.S.A., without acquiring court-approved warrants, used the eavesdropping operation approved by President Bush weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks to wiretap his communications, and that the interceptions might include evidence that would point to his innocence in what they regard as a free-speech case. They charge that the government has intentionally withheld that material despite repeated requests.
The Justice Department has denied that it had any other evidence of eavesdropping against him other than what it turned over to his lawyers. But the federal judge in the case, Leonie M. Brinkema in Alexandria, Va., has expressed increasing annoyance over persistent questions about the N.S.A.’s possible role.
In a recently unsealed transcript of an October closed-court hearing in the case, the judge stated that she believed that the government appeared to have committed violations of federal rules governing evidence and discovery. She also ordered the government to search for further evidence of its use of secret surveillance operations against Mr. Timimi.
Timimi’s lawyer is our beloved Jonathan Turley, who has already met with the NSA’s IG’s office.
"In that meeting, we discussed how best to open an investigation into the matter," he wrote, and the inspector general’s staff made it clear that a formal referral from Congress for investigation would make it easier for them to start an inquiry
I have a theory about how this may have gone down. Timimi recalls specific conversations that he believes are exculpatory, Turley asked for regular discovery and the exculpatory conversations were not produced, though other incriminating conversations were. Then Turley asks again with specifics of the conversations and, voila, they find them.
Proof of discovery misconduct and, maybe, proof of exculpatory behavior by Timimi. Timimi may well get a second trial out of it, but I don’t know if he will be acquitted–It sounds like he has a blind sheik problem here, but don’t know enough of the specifics of the case.
What is going to suck for the AUSA’s is they are likely going to take the heat for the NSA not telling them the truth.
I don’t know whether Turley did this deliberately–like some kind of reverse perjury trap–or whether this just happened organically, but if what I think happened is correct, Turley and the IG have exactly the kind of crowbar in the crack that they need to wedge the door all the way open.




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OHHHHH, popcorn LHP?
Loosehead!
Digg it
Brinkema is the judge here. She was the judge in the Moussaoui trial. That was a circus. Also I think that Brinkema got slapped down a lot on appeal. So I don’t know how far this will go. There certainly seems malfeasance on someone’s part.
IF If if, Turley really has the goods, this could both tell what the hell they were doing AND expose the fact that it doesn’t really work to prevent terror attacks.
hmmm, I posted this story on Digg but then it disappeared. looks like egregious has the official Digg.
what does a “formal referral from Congress” look like?
Dugg
Is Elliot Spitzer listed as an interested party?
It doesn’t have to be malfeasance. It may simply be that the DOJ brought the case based on some intercepted phone calls, obtained with warrants. Turley asks for “any and all other phone calls invovling his client intercepted by the gov’t” looking for exculpatory evidence or soemthing that shoots holes inthe gov’t case.
The govt’ sends around a little memeo to other agencies that may have been listening to Timmi, like NSA.
NSA does a data base search that does nt turn up all the emails, B/C of the problems you have searching a database that huge with multiple foreign laguages invovled.
You will tend to get too many hits or not enough hits–tech gurus help me out here.
Turley and his client go throught the stuff the govt’ produced and the client notices that conversations he remebers having during the period for which other conversations were produced, aren’t in the pile.
Turley goes back to the AUSA with specifics which allow for a more taregtted search and voila some missing conversations turn up.
I’m guessing about all this remeber.
I am also guessing that that are still more missing conversations.
Why does this prove that the NSA program can’t PREVENT terror attacks?
Because the algorithms don’t work. All that “A Beautiful Mind” linking bullshit does nto work. It’s a flawed premise.
The only thing the NSA data base seems tobe any good for, is as an evidence preservation archive. you have to already know what you are looking for with some specificity, in order to tfind it.
It’s the needle in the haystack probelem.
It looks like a letter
good for holt. who is the ig?
Uh, gosh, we don’t remember. Or, aw shucks, we just can find those documents.
But you can trust us. We don’t torture or anything else that is illegal.
okay, from who? committee? full votes? one member?
This “Abuse by Big Brother” Case is So Bush!
The NSA coughs-up Some of its Surveillance in Regular Discovery (the stuff that incriminates Timmi,) but holds-back the Exculpatory Evidence?
Hmmmm…
That would be like Chimpy putting forth British Claims of Yellowcake Purchase Activity by Iraq, when he had the Wilson Trip Report in his File Drawer!
So in other words, either way they are kind of screwed. Either they were covering up info that they had (which is bad) or they couldn’t find relevant info (which renders the system useless). Either way, the NSA has some esplainin’ to do…
I don’t know off the top of my head, and a quick buzz of the NSA’s website did not render the name up
Using Bush/Cheney logic, Timimi was responsible for the Columbia space shuttle disaster.
I don’t know, but assume the Committee will vote and then te Chair will send a referral letter.
That’s not my hypothesis. My hypothisis is that it was not intentional–which is MUCH MORE RELEVANT.
If it’s not intetnitonal, that means that even when that are activley looking for stuff, they can;t find it, without already knowing that it exists and some specific information to ID it–like a date or a phone #.
So allthis drift net stuffwould not be seiving out actionalble intelligence, or even leads.
No, fragmentary evidence – as long as the evidence is sound – is much better than no evidence.
This is a huge help to Timimi and Turley, because Timimi knows specifics.
Exactly.
Fradmentory evidence is better than no evidence? The NSA system was not sold as being an evidenc epreservation archive.
They got all those Congress critters to vote for TElcom immunity by telling tham that the info could be seived to pop out the critical calls/emails/texts etc that would allow us to get AHEAD of the terror attack.
But if the volume of info is so vast and the NSA search engine is so crappy, guess what can”t happen?
NSA looks for needles in haystacks by adding more hay.
LHP,
There are times when I thank God for incompetence.
Things could be a lot worse if the NSA illegal program actually had competent people running it (i.e., Cheney would use stuff to blackmail Democratic Senators like Jello Jay…. oh, wait….)
Bob in HI
IGs come in various flavors. As far as I can tell, the NSA IG is not Presidentially appointed Congressionally approved. This would indicate that members are appointed by the agency head which would indicate little independence. How do you investigate those who hired and can fire you?
Very very interesting. Great post LHP! I hope Turley can show how the NSA is 1) not keeping us safe, 2) violating the 4th amendment, and 3) wasting tax payer dollars in the process. Keeping popcorn handy and fingers crossed…
If the database doesn’t allow wildcard searches, it will miss stuff. If it doesn’t allow ’sounds like’ searches, it will miss more.
There’s a tendency to assume that computers – or programs – are smart, and that’s a bad assumption, especially in searching for stuff in a (probably large) database.
Computers are stupid: they’ll only find what you tell them too, and maybe not even then. (Here I’m thinking of the large genealogy index database I use, where searching for ‘Taylor’ will get you ‘Tyler’ for the first several hundred responses, and ‘Taylor’ will be way down the list of returns.)
I cannot find any mention of NSA on IGNet. i wonder if NSA used to DOD IG, who is presidentially appointed and Seante confirmed
Getting behind the NSA green door is going to take a lot of prying, but Turley certainly seems smart enough. I wish him well, we need to get to the bottom of this garbage.
Right. So the NSA data base could have transcribed his name as Timmie, Timmy, or maybe even “Timmeh.” Heh. Wonder what his conversations were about. Not.
I have no clue how the search engine works, but things are further complicated by the fact that there are a variety of foreign langueges and dialects invovled.
Now add to that the use of foreign languages and the transcritptione errors tha come with crappy translators and……
get my drift?
I’ve got a little different take on this one.
There was a post recently (I can’t find it now) in which the issue was an enhancement to this gentleman’s sentence sought, based upon his allegedly having rejoiced at the destruction of the space shuttle Columbia. This event, supposedly, was a blow to America and therefore something to be celebrated in the supposed terrist mindset for which he is to be sentenced.
Suppose, for a second, that he tells his lawyer – “I only ever said that once, and it was on the phone to X.” And, suppose, calls between X and this defendant are not included in the discovery, or were not covered by whatever warrant the government has coughed up in discovery.
Or, suppose, that the only time that topic of conversation took place was on a certain date, and there are no intercepts alleged to have been taken on that date.
Now, the government comes forward and wants to use the surveillance equivalent of “uncharged conduct” or “acquitted conduct” to get a sentence enhancement. Interesting theory, seeing as how uncharged conduct and acquitted conduct do ordinarily fly at sentencing, but so far (AFAIK) only when the information is lawfully gathered.
Suppose this, additional point: maybe the AUSAs slipped a little more intentionally than they will fess up to, in seeking the maximum enhancement. Boss pushes and pushes, they put in the fruits of warrantless wiretapping, making either a mess of the case or a fertile new ground for getting longer sentences for the disfavored.
Moreover, the one judge I would not be doing this before is Judge Brinkema. She’s had repeated discovery violations in the Moussaoui case, in which the government outright lied to her, and remember the ethical quandry the AUSAs got into over hiding airline information in Moussaoui’s case, so as to help the airlines defend the civil cases brought by the families of the dead. And, she’s had difficulties in other cases. She will likely be looking at these allegations with a very jaundiced (against the government) eye.
Finally, Rush Holt, representing the Princeton area, is no dummy. Rather, he is literally a rocket scientist. I think he knows what he’s doing here.
“You will tend to get too many hits or not enough hits–tech gurus help me out here.”
Both. If one gets a list, it will both have missing entries and false positives.
One has to know:
The indexing scheme of the database, or if it is text search lik Google.
And how the agency building the database entered information. Arabic name are very prone to multiple spellings in the Roman Alphabet/English.
And the ‘exact’ queries against the database. As they were typed. As its easy to msitype.
Jonathan Turley, hero of the people.
can only find former NSA IG – Joel Brenner – left the job in 06 after Negroponte nominated him to run Office of Counter Intel
Actually you spelled his name wrong in your paragraph between the 2 quotes, so I was just riffing off that without checking to see what the correct spelling was.
But here’s my big q. Are these transcripts of oral communications? If so, how were they transcribed; big errors always occur in that step regardless of whether it’s done by a human or a machine. And if it’s recordings that have to be searched by voice recognition, good luck with that.
If it went down according to your theory–which is every bit a plausable at this point as mine–that would mean either the AUSA’s came into possession of the space shuttle call transcript after the case
or
they withheld it all along.
If the latter, they are in deep shit. Brinkema will fry their asses. That was not the impression that I got from the quotes in the article linked above though.
That implies that she thinks DOJ does nto know what NSA has, not that they improperly withheld it
lhp – I hear you, even though Unintentional Boobery by the NSA is concerning by itself, but I wonder if there was a Change inside the information chain from the NSA to the Prosecutors and the Judge?
Specifically, I wonder if a Political Review Element – in addition to a Security Review Element – as a part of The President’s “Program” – filtered the results of the first round of Discovery, but was gone by the time of the second request, in which case, the previously excluded, but now specifically sought ‘exculpatory’ evidence – that also passed the Security Review – was the second time passed on to Turley? A possible sign of a win for the Rule of Law.
So, incompetence or flaws-in-the-system are possible, but this could also be explained by a change in Political Influence. The Timimi Case may straddle the time when Bush the UE lost the Power to Pixie Dust Unfavorable-to-his-Case Evidence in the Name of the War on Terror.
We don’t know. NSA not telling. That’s why Bushco was so hot to get telcom immunity passed, so we wouldn’t find out.
See why this investigation is SOOOO important?
And search engines change often, at least the commercial ones. For example I googled something recently and got a bunch of really relevant hits, whereas googling the same subject about 6 months ago resulted in very little. And all the stuff that was found recently was not put online in the last 6 months. Some of it was a lot older. So something happened to google in the interim that allowed it to do a better search.
That’s the point, we don’t know. That’s whatthis investigation will tell us. Assuming some portion of the results are made public
You mean we don’t even know whether the evidence is transcribed or still in oral recording form? Isn’t it possible to find out from the trial transcipt?
OT
Kashkari’s up at mortgage conference.
I may be remebering this wrong, but I seem to recall that NSA spent a ton of moolah having a proprietary search engine built from scratch.
Will any care to bet me that the programming procurement for this was not of the same caliber as theprocurement of housing trailer for FEMA?
No one wants to bet? I’ll give odds..
So, if teh search engine is as crappy as the fema trailers, it’s going to churn out crap. If the translations are bad, ….. . If names have muliple spellings… . and so on and so on
Don’t confuse conversations obtained with a warrant–which would have been what they used at trial, those have tapes and transcritps, with whatever NSA stores.
We have been trying to find that out for years
i’m taking a break from house agriculture to listen to kashkari.
I’ll bet: that it’s FUBAR.
To put on my tinfoil hat for awhile, there’s a chance the search engine was designed to identify only evidence of guilt.
Oh silly me, why would I think they’d be compentent enough to do that.
OT
As predicted, Kashkari’s talking about process (held meetings, etc.) not outcomes.
“TARP is a successful work in progress”
OK. Got that. But what Turley has been able to hear/read is the NSA stuff, right? So he must know what form it’s in. Can he not reveal that?
Google does a pretty good job of searching.
Hehehe. He got around to my previously posted snark about “hiring people.”
Kashkari is useless. What a nightmare to have the U.S. economy into hands of people like him.
That’s a mighty few tea leaves to read to support implying one way or the other what DoJ knows and when. Also, remember, from the Moussaoui case and the non-disclosure of relevant material that some of the attorneys in DoJ knew more than others did. They ran the ignorant ones out in front as patsies, in essence, to make the arguments, while the knowing ones were kept in the background. Not to be too blunt about it, but DoJ (let alone NSA) does not trust its own people to be on board with the Bushco program(s).
Reminds me of s a scene from one of the early West Wing episodes I saw last week.
There’s a “Missile Defense test” that misses by 137 miles. Leo responds: “It was successful on 9 out of 10 of the test criteria.” President Bartlett: “But it missed by 137 miles.”
Blue Texan upstairs on Blackwater
that’s right. only search for quilt then quit. i’m sure the nsa doesn’t want to show how/where they collected the info. we will never know that. does anyone know what physical area (taps) of the us we are discussing?
LOL.
i wonder if turley wil be talking about this tonight, (or any night), on countdown
IMHO NSA would use either the DB contractor or Subs., all working in house, to provide provide the search engine tweaks. NSA should have the bestist and brightest geeks looking over the shoulders of their Contractors to get what they want, taxpayer dollars be damned.
countdown or Rachel or both.
TRAILBLAZER. A fascinating story, a total failure, and all on Hayden’s watch.
NSA’s whole philosophy is based on the “magic bullet” theory: the info is in there for sure, if you only look hard enough.
Unfortunately this philosophy ignores an elementary principle of sampling, namely: every time you look for something, and you *don’t* find it, the less likely it is that what you’re looking for is there at all.
What the whole business comes down to is *not* finding evidence. It comes down to CYA. They need to be able to prove, after a catastrophe, that it wasn’t their fault nobody saw it coming.
Just like in th eLibby trial, some stuff is shown to defense lawyers who have security clearances (no they can’t talk about that) , but then when you ID a document that you want to use under CIPA you try ot get all or parts of it declassified or come up with a suitbale substituion–sometimes a summary of the document
Thanks, looseheadprop. DUGG and commented there.
Prof. Turley is my one of my favorites. Glad to hear he is on the case. Kinda feel sorry for those opposing him.
You folks might be interested in reading Glenn Greenwald’s column today over at Salon. He quotes an article in US News and World Report that Haydon may be kept on at CIA. phred alerted us to that over at Oxdown.
http://www.glenngreenwald.com
NSA wants a harsher sentence because defendant rejoiced when Columbia exploded? What about those 5 Israelies dancing on that white van when the planes hit the towers? They were detained a few days then flown back to Israel.
I’m not anti-Israel. It’s the Zionist wing that creates havoc.
way way way epu’d
4 – the only thing I remember from the terrorism cases where Brinkema got reversed on appeal had to do with her efforts to let Moussaoui have access to the tortured detainees for questioning – was there more? She has also had some exposure to what DOJ is doing with destroying evidence and obstructing from that case, since her orders should have resulted preservation of the destroyed tapes (and her reversal was before the discovery that DOJ was destroying evidence of torture too IIRC).
LHP/20 – Turley has classified clearance and isn’t above hard work and he probably has access to the facts of the Keith case pretty handy. As he sifted through production, he may have found something that alerted him to the fact that there was some surveillance that would not have been captured pursuant to whatever orders allowing surveillance that might have been produced to demonstrate authorized interception. I wonder if he even might have had access to some whistleblower info. But I think things could be interesting on two fronts, front A being if the surveillance was duly authorized by a FISA order and they just failed to hand over exculpatory info, front B being that the surveillance might have exceeded what a FISA order allowed – and be exculpatory – which would be even more interesting. BC while you are thinking it might have been simply an oversight, I’m wondering if there wasn’t a reason related to not wanting to “reveal” that there was surveillance taking place that was NOT pursuant to a FISA order and that is also the surveillance that had the exculpatory info – - I’ve always thought that the biggest deal part of kindasorta show down over the unconstitutional domestic wiretaps, the thing that caused the uproar, was that the FISA court had been advised of the breaches of the firewalls and was getting ready to issue orders about the program that the renewal of the programs, without modification, would in essence ignore – - so that DOJ lawyers directly involved would be being placed in a situation where they were outright defying a court order to go on with the program “as is” So there were at least two instances that were brought to the FISA Chief Judge’s attention during the program that involved violations of their firewalls and the second reportedly resulted in a temporary termination of Teh Program – at the same time that supposedly the actions of Comey et all were resutling in a … temporary termination of Teh Program.
Re: the IG – all I can say is that there are numerous reports of some NSA IG (current one or not I don’t know) who was involved, along with NSA Gen Counsel, in signing off on Teh Program, so it makes you wonder how thorough any of it will be.
45 – some of the spec seems to be that part of the “secret” part of the secret program is that the phone companies allowed NSA to use THEIR proprietary search engines – just spec, but it was pretty interesting.
Turly has a very interesting blog himself -
http://jonathanturley.org/
Although he doesn’t include a whole lot about his cases now and then he has some objective updates on status.
On the AUSAs getting heat – I’d feel differently a) if that had ever happened – even with the blatant destruction of evidence and blatant fibs to the court (including Clement’s “we don’t torture” to the US Sup Ct) there’s never been any handslap even; and b) if these weren’t AUSAs who have likely been chirpily working for known torturers for multiple years, with no public complaints. My sympathies are pretty reserved, I have to say, not that they’ll need them anyway. If you represent Executive Branch criminals – you’ve been scotchguarded in the courts apparently.